During a Joint Economic Committee hearing prior to the congressional recess, Rep. Ron Estes (R-KS) questioned Sterling Thomas, Chief Scientist at the Government Accountability Office, about using artificial intelligence to combat fraud.
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00:00Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for holding this hearing and for your work on this committee.
00:09Today I'm afraid that rooting out waste, fraud, and abuse has become divisive here in Washington,
00:15but it's exactly what the Americans want us to address.
00:18Before this year, rooting out waste, fraud, and abuse was actually a bipartisan endeavor
00:23and talked about and had broad support.
00:26It appears that now there's a number of lawmakers, bureaucrats, and media that actively support
00:31the status quo, which in essence is on the side of allowing the waste and fraud to continue.
00:37We've had decades of Inspector General reports that have outlined the reckless misuse of government
00:42funds with little or no appetite to address that.
00:45You mentioned that earlier in the terms of the status quo or the push on the status quo
00:54was to resist the loss of recipients of the payments that we're making through that.
01:03The new administration is shattering some of the status quo and tackling the problem with
01:07their directive that got from the American people last November.
01:12As the chair of the Social Security subcommittee here in the House, I want to just highlight
01:18that for everybody in America that every dollar that's saved by eliminating waste, fraud, and
01:23abuse is a dollar that can go towards benefits to seniors that have earned them or for benefits
01:28in other programs as well.
01:31Typically, things have been slow here in Washington to change with just the bureaucracy and the size
01:38of the government.
01:40If you contrast that with the private sector, U.S. businesses, if they don't innovate and adapt,
01:45they die.
01:46In D.C., as Ronald Reagan once quote, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life
01:52we'll ever see on earth.
01:54Some of the advancements that we're seeing with artificial intelligence are already disrupting
01:58industries throughout the country, whether it's in medical field, manufacturing, or technology.
02:03The federal government needs to be looking at ways that we can actually be more responsible
02:07and use AI.
02:08Dr. Thomas, based on data from 2018 to 2022, GAO estimates that aggregate fraud was between
02:17$233 billion to $521 billion each year.
02:22On the low end, that means that the government's lost more than a trillion dollars in a five-year
02:26period and maybe as much as $2.6 trillion.
02:30It's unfathomable that people would be against finding and eliminating this blatant theft of
02:38taxpayer dollars.
02:39So what, from a GAO's perspective, are you doing to implement machine learning and data
02:43analytics to help reduce that fraud and how other federal agencies can work to get that
02:50number closer to zero?
02:51Yeah.
02:52So within our data analytics programs, we are developing tools for our analysts to identify
02:58the flags that I mentioned earlier of what are potential indicators of fraudulent events,
03:03fraudulent programs, fraudulent payments, and making those tools potentially available
03:09to the rest of the agencies to use.
03:11We continue to work with the agencies to help them adopt the recommendations that we put forth
03:15in each of our reports.
03:16When we talk about fraud across the government as an estimate, that comes from information that
03:22we receive from each of the agencies.
03:24As we work with that, we develop a whole bunch of recommendations and we follow up with them.
03:29And adopting those recommendations, we believe will bring down the risk of fraud.
03:34Additionally, we want them to use our fraud risk framework that we have implemented and
03:39shared with them.
03:40It allows them to look at programs and identify where potential fraud could exist if that program
03:46was implemented in that particular way and make adjustments to try to, just as you talked
03:50about, stop fraud from happening before it happens.
03:55Mr. Chilson, I think when we talk about rooting out waste, fraud, and abuse, sometimes a false
04:01narrative gets promoted that the federal government is taking away benefits from Americans that
04:05have rightfully deserved those.
04:08And trying to alleviate some of this fear-mongering, can you help dispel some of those fears and explain
04:14how AI can more effectively target those bad actors, target the improper payments to ensure
04:20that our government programs provide the resources to the right beneficiaries?
04:23Well, accuracy is really important.
04:26And what we've seen in the private sector is that these tools can help both eliminate fraud,
04:33but also serve the people who are rightfully getting benefits more quickly and accurately.
04:41And so, I do think that we have opportunities in this space.
04:44The financial sector does this all the time, and what it's found is that, you know, you
04:50may remember you got lots of calls, maybe five years ago, you got lots of calls anytime you
04:54like went on a trip with your credit card.
04:56Well, now they can identify when there's fraud with a lot fewer of those false positives.
05:00And that's a convenience to the people who are getting benefits, as well as those who
05:05are, you know, as well as addressing the people who are fraud.
05:08Well, thank you.
05:09I mean, I've run out of time like so many others.
05:11We have so many questions that I could ask each of you and I yield back, Mr. Chairman.