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00:00No, it's not a script worthy of a science fiction movie.
00:06A U.S. company says that it's been breeding three genetically engineered wolfpups extinct for 10,000 years.
00:19The scientists who are from a private company in the United States say they are working to reverse the extinction of species.
00:33As adorable as they may be, wolves like these were once one of North America's most dangerous predators.
00:40The dire wolf became extinct some 13,000 years ago, but scientists from Colossal say they've created three dire wolf cubs by altering genes of the grey wolf, their closest living relative.
00:52They're calling it de-extinction.
00:54They're genetically really similar, 99.5% similar, and phenotypically their morphology is also similar.
01:02So we targeted DNA sequence variants that we believe lead to those traits.
01:08And then we edited grey wolf cells to contain those dire wolf DNA variants.
01:15And then we cloned those cells and created our dire wolves.
01:18Their names are Romulus, Remus, and Khaleesi, after the wolves were made famous by Game of Thrones.
01:25With their dense pale coats, they look very similar to their extinct predecessors.
01:30But other scientists are sceptical about the term de-extinction and say it's an exaggeration.
01:34So, yes, they have slightly genetically modified wolves, maybe.
01:41And that's probably the best that you're going to get.
01:44And those slight modifications seem to have been derived from retrieved dire wolf material.
01:52Does that make it a dire wolf? No.
01:54Does it make a slightly modified grey wolf? Yes.
01:58And that's probably about it.
02:01The wolves will remain in captivity in an undisclosed location in the north of the US.
02:05But the technology that the company has developed could potentially help conserve species that have not yet gone extinct,
02:11such as the critically endangered red wolf.
02:13Colossal has also been working towards resurrecting the mammoth, dodo, and Tasmanian tiger.
02:20Well, for more on this story, we can turn now to, from Oxford, Dominic Wilson,
02:30physician and professor of medical ethics at the University of Oxford's Uerio Centre for Practical Ethics.
02:36Thank you for speaking with us here on France 24.
02:39You're very welcome.
02:40This story is so startling, it made the cover of Time magazine last week.
02:48You heard that one scientist in that report expressing doubt, saying these are not dire wolves.
02:55They are what we think might be dire wolves.
02:58Your thoughts on that?
03:01So that's right.
03:02So the first question is, what are these creatures?
03:05So they are genetically engineered wolves that contain some genes from an extinct species,
03:17the dire wolf species, but have been developed from modern wolves.
03:24So they're modern wolves with some genetic variations,
03:26so that then they've got something in common with modern wolves
03:29and something in common with these ancient extinct wolves.
03:33And your thoughts on this, is this a good news story?
03:40So in thinking about the ethics of creating these animals,
03:45the question is, why are we doing it?
03:48What are the reasons for doing it?
03:50And I think it's worth distinguishing that if we bring a species back to life
03:56or create a new species, and in some ways this is a new species,
03:59it's got some mix of old species, that's not for the sake of the animals.
04:04That's different from what we might think is at stake when we're trying to protect a species
04:09on the edge of extinction.
04:12We might think for those creatures, for that species, we want to try and protect it.
04:18So I think that the most exciting and ethically interesting possibility from this technology
04:24is its use to potentially save some of the species that are on the edge of extinction.
04:32But, of course, the question is, what's going to happen to these creatures
04:36like these new dire wolves or the potential woolly mammoths
04:40if they are created, these genetically engineered mix of different creatures?
04:49Where are they going to fit into the world?
04:51These creatures have become extinct for a reason, often, like the dire wolves,
04:55because actually their ecological niche has disappeared.
04:59They died out because they lost the giant megafauna that they used to hunt,
05:05at least in part.
05:06So will these creatures be able to live in the wild?
05:11And if they're not living in the wild, if they're living in enclosures,
05:15what sort of life will that be for them?
05:17And will that really achieve what is supposedly desired by bringing species back to life?
05:25Yeah, introducing species is always an issue.
05:28Just when it comes to wolves here in France,
05:30there's constantly arguments about reintroducing wolves.
05:35Farmers and environmentalists don't agree.
05:38If you genetically create these creatures from the past and you reintroduce them,
05:44could there be a Jurassic Park scenario where they become invasive species?
05:48Well, I think that's one of the biggest worries, less the Jurassic Park scenario,
05:55but the worry about the damage to the ecosystem.
06:00We have a very bad track record as humans of introducing species for a purpose that we think
06:08might be a good one, the cane toads in Australia being a particularly memorable and catastrophic example
06:15of humans introducing a species that then takes over and causes lots of secondary damage.
06:25So one of the worries about engineering species releasing them into the wild
06:30is their wider impact, and we're not very good at predicting that.
06:34And this U.S. company, Colossal, what are they about?
06:38What's their purpose?
06:40Is it to advance science?
06:42Is it to make money?
06:43What are they about?
06:46Well, it's not my call to say what their purpose is.
06:51Clearly, the technologies that they're developing have a wide range of different uses,
06:56and bringing these genetically engineered animals creates a huge amount of publicity for them.
07:06So we might say cynically that the direwolves or the woolly mammoths,
07:11the woolly mice are about raising their profile.
07:14But there are clearly lots of very important potential benefits from these sorts of technologies,
07:23again, for animals on the edge of extinction, or, of course, for humans, too.
07:29Right.
07:30There could be implications.
07:31So I ask you, because we had a story a few weeks ago about those woolly mice that you allude to
07:36build as a first step towards perhaps bringing back the woolly mammoth.
07:41Dominic Wilkinson, when we reintroduce these, or when we reintroduce what we think are these species,
07:50are we playing God?
07:52And is that a bad thing necessarily, that we're doing this, that we're tinkering with the genetic makeup of fauna?
08:03Well, I think that the genetic technologies that we are using all the time for medicine
08:15are altering things that have occurred by evolution over long periods of time.
08:25Now, there are very good reasons when we're altering, when we're genetic engineering, for example, to treat disease,
08:34to think that even if that is changing, altering the basic makeup of species, that there are good reasons to do that.
08:44But these types of concerns about interfering with nature are important ones.
08:50And, of course, the more this technology becomes available to us, the more we're going to face these questions of where the boundaries are.
08:58What is it acceptable for us to do?
09:01Treating disease seems like a good thing to do.
09:04But going beyond that, creating new species.
09:08So these are, in one way, a new species.
09:11But what if we wanted to create a new species, again, that hadn't got an ancestor that was made extinct?
09:19Would that be a good or a bad thing?
09:21These are important questions for us to ask.
09:23So, Dominic, I don't know if you read the news, but these days, the mood is not for more regulation.
09:29Nonetheless, from what you're listening to you, I get the sense that what you're asking for,
09:34tell me if I'm wrong, is that there be some kind of international guidelines, perhaps, on all of this?
09:40Is there some rules that the world can agree on?
09:44Well, I think we need to reflect as societies about where the limits of these technologies are.
09:53Clearly, these technologies can be used both for good and for less good purposes.
10:00So we want to reap the benefits of genetic engineering and genetic technologies.
10:06But we also need to be very careful about the consequences for the environment, for the creatures that are created, or, of course, for humanity.
10:20So we need to take these steps with great care.
10:24So how do we take these steps with great care is my question.
10:30Who decides?
10:32Well, I think you asked about guidelines, and I think that's an important step.
10:38There are existing laws, particularly when it comes to genetic engineering, that relates to humans,
10:44particularly germline modification, that need laws.
10:50But in a world where there are many, many different places and different parts of the world,
10:57whether these regulations will be binding or the laws will apply in different parts of the world are important questions to ask.
11:06One final question for you.
11:07Dominic Wilkinson, what do your students think?
11:12I think the students who I talk to are intrigued by the prospects and potential of different forms of genetic engineering.
11:22I think there's great potential and hope that genetic engineering might solve some of the serious problems of our world.
11:32But also concerns come from science fiction.
11:35You talked about science fiction at the very start of the story.
11:38Concerns about what it might mean to society if these types of technologies are simply adopted without careful reflection and ethical thought.
11:49Dominic Wilkinson, many thanks for speaking with us from Oxford in England.
11:53You're very welcome.
11:54You know,