Arundhati Ghosh is a writer, cultural practitioner, and social activist. She first reflected on her journey with polyamory in Outlook’s August 2023 issue Radical Love and has now expanded that exploration in her book, 'All Our Loves: Journeys with Polyamory'. In an interview with Outlook, she discusses her book, its themes, and the evolving conversations on love and relationships in India.
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Reporter: Rani Jana
Editor: Sudhanshu
Follow us:
Website: https://www.outlookindia.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Outlookindia
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/outlookindia/
X: https://twitter.com/Outlookindia
Whatsapp: https://whatsapp.com/channel/0029VaNrF3v0AgWLA6OnJH0R
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@OutlookMagazine
Dailymotion: https://www.dailymotion.com/outlookindia
#AllOurLoves #ArundhatiGhosh #PolyamoryInIndia #RadicalLove #OutlookMagazine #OutlookInterview #LoveAndRelationships #ContemporaryLove #IndianAuthors #FeministReads #Polyamory #ModernLove
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LifestyleTranscript
00:00Love is political, in any country, and more so in India.
00:03I mean, even a few years ago, certain kinds of love between queer people was criminalized, right?
00:08And we don't know when that's going to happen again, given things, the way they are going all over the world.
00:17Hi, I'm Rani Jana, and today I'm with Arundhati Ghosh, a writer, cultural practitioner, and social activist.
00:25She served as the executive director of the India Foundation for the Arts from 2013 to 2023,
00:33and has contributed to advisory boards of institutions like the Museum of Art and Photography.
00:40She first reflected on her journey with polyamory in Outlook's August 2023 issue, Radical Love,
00:47and has now expanded that exploration in her book, All Our Loves, Journeys with Polyamory.
00:54Today, we'll discuss her book, its themes, and the evolving conversations on love and
01:00relationships in India. So Arundhati, firstly, congratulations on your book,
01:05and welcome to Outlook Talks.
01:08Thanks so much, Rani. Thank you for doing this.
01:10I was having a conversation with two of my friends who are also polyamorous,
01:16and they are very excited for this book to come out because, as they rightly said,
01:22there are not enough people talking about this, especially in the context of India.
01:27So I'll start with, why do you think this book is important?
01:32First thing is, your friend said it, that there isn't a book in India. Everybody who has looked
01:40beyond monoamory, monogamy, has looked at books from across the world. So it's important because
01:48while polyamorous people all over the world need to lead courageous lives, but their context and
01:56environment and situations are very different from the very complex, messy, and beautiful,
02:03yet difficult situations that we have in India. So it was important for me to write from the
02:10perspective of people who lead polyamorous lives in India. Quickly, a few more reasons why I think
02:16it's important is because growing up as a polyamorous person, I often felt very alone,
02:22felt shallow, felt like a freak, felt there was something wrong with me. As it also happens with
02:27a lot of queer people growing up, because that's not what you see around you. It's not normalized.
02:32It's even when spoken about in very harsh tones, you know. I wanted polyamorous people to feel
02:39less lonely, less lost, and to find some answers, some options in the conversations or difficulties
02:47they're having in their own lives. So that's why it's important for the community. But outside of
02:51the community, anybody who's struggling with relationships of love, now love is hard, and it
02:57gets harder as you love across boundaries of any kind, as you love against rules, they become taboos,
03:05and therefore it is important to talk more and more about those kinds of loves. Love is political
03:13in any country, and more so in India. I mean, even a few years ago, certain kinds of love between queer
03:18people was criminalized, and we don't know when that's going to happen again, given things
03:23the way they are going all over the world. So it's more and more important that we talk about
03:28love that does not surrender to conventions, to rules, to sort of hegemonic systems that are
03:37already put in place. And finally, I also feel that people within the practice are also not
03:45thinking of many things like the legal aspect of our lives. I didn't think about it before I
03:51started writing the book. You know, a chance encounter with a lawyer friend, and they asked me,
03:57so what do you think about the legal system? I said, we have to think about that also. So that's
04:02how the journey happened. So I'm hoping many of these things will be discussed. But I also hope,
04:09I really, really hope that over the next couple of years, there are going to be many more books
04:14on polyamory from different contexts. I have only touched the very surface of it, the English,
04:20Bangla, Hindi speaking city folks who practice polyamory, but there are so many worlds out there.
04:26So throughout the book, you use the term loves, instead of partners. Was that a conscious
04:34decision? Because in the book you have written, most assume these are quickies, short bursts of
04:41great sex, and if lucky, some romance too, suggesting that these relationships are often,
04:49you know, dismissed as solely physical. Yeah. So was that a conscious choice?
04:54Yes, it was. But for many reasons, you've picked up one, that yes, love is very important. You know,
05:00even within the community, very easily when we say we talk about polyamory, we just say poly.
05:07And I'm very hesitant to do that, because poly just means many. Amory is the part of it that's
05:12most important. And that's why loves. But there's another reason I use the word loves instead of
05:17partners. I use the word loves as a umbrella word for all the different relationship
05:25stages that can happen within the polyamory system. You come to a partnership only after a while,
05:32right? Like in, let's say in any friendship, you will not call somebody a friend right at
05:38the beginning. It will have to come to a point, and that point is different for different people,
05:43where you will start calling that person a friend, then a close friend, then a best friend,
05:49then part of my inner circle. So there is a process there. I'm using the word loves to mean
05:55all the lovers that one has, some of whom may be partners may have reached that stage, but some of
06:02whom may just be in the process of, you know, developing a relationship. So that's the conscious
06:09choice of the word loves. That is very interesting to think on, especially in the context of
06:16friendships as well. Like you mentioned, you know, I don't think many people think about relationships
06:23so deeply. My next question would be, monogamous relationships are very deeply sanctioned by
06:30religion and culture today, at least. State also. State also. Yeah. So I think in, like the way it
06:38is sanctioned, polyamory is often framed in opposition to monogamous relationship. So from
06:45your perspective and your research, what are some of the issues that arise from the way monogamy is,
06:52you know, promoted? Yeah. So here, you know, I make this distinction at the very start of the book
06:58that when we use the Greek word gamy, that necessarily means marriage. So I have called
07:04monoamory and polyamory. And then you have monogamy and polygamy. Though, monoamory and monogamy are
07:12often used in exchange of each other. Like monoamory is not a word that's used a lot. Everywhere, even
07:18when you mean one love, you call it monogamy, though gamy means marriage. So just to clarify
07:25the definition. But I think there are tons of issues with monogamy being proclaimed as the only
07:33ethical way in which one can love or have a partnership. There are issues with monoyamorous
07:41relationships, like there are issues with polyamorous relationships. Having issues is not
07:46the problem. The problem begins when, because, you know, that's a choice. People love differently.
07:52That's the whole point. I also say in the book that the book is not meant to make polyamorous
07:58sound cooler or tougher or sexier or more progressive or any of that. It is meant to,
08:05the book wants to suggest that this is also another way of life, just like monogamy is.
08:11And monogamy is not the only ethical way. When you make it the only ethical way to have
08:18relationships, then, then things start going wrong. Let me just talk about three things.
08:25One is, the first one is the pressure of finding that one ideal partner. Okay. The pressure is
08:33humongous. A friend had very jokingly told me, you know, I can't even find one decent partner.
08:39How are you finding many? So my response to that in the same playfulness is, you know,
08:44stop searching for the one, you will find many. Because when you go to search for the one,
08:51whether you're on a dating app, or you're meeting people at a friend's house, or your relatives are
08:56like sort of, you know, connecting you up with interesting people. The list of qualities and
09:02things we need that we carry is absurd. They not only look at our needs and desires,
09:09they are also guarantees against all our insecurities. They are sort of, almost like
09:16it's a, we are carrying the ruins of all our broken dreams. When we are looking for the one,
09:23that pressure kills any relationship before it even begins. And even if we find that ideal,
09:31true love, that one and only, the same scrutiny is done on us. And we become hard on ourselves,
09:38because the other person is also carrying that long list. And what happens over a period of time
09:44is constantly trying to live up to those ideals and pressures of the one. That's a big, big
09:52problem. The second one is that this kind of relationship promotes things like jealousy,
09:59possessiveness, which brings in so much of toxicity into relationships with control, with
10:07anger, with rage, with, with a lot of frustration of almost inhuman demands on each other. I have
10:15a huge problem with jealousy, not only being seen as something that is natural, but almost like
10:23becoming a measure of love, that the more jealous you are, the more you love somebody. I think
10:29that's ridiculous. It's a, it's a deeply difficult, you know, kind of emotion. And it cannot be given
10:37that much space. And the third one, and the final, I mean, the third one that I'll mention,
10:41problem with monogamy is, the moment something becomes the only thing, something becomes the
10:47only way to be. Any critique of it, anybody who thinks outside of that is immediately seen as
10:55aberrant, abnormal, the other. I mean, it's, it's this whole thing that we're going through now with
11:01this one nation, one culture, one leader kind of political situations in most countries. This
11:07homogenization is exactly that, right? That you have to accept this one way of being. And if you
11:14don't fall in this, then there's something wrong with you. And you have to be eliminated,
11:19quietened down, silenced. So these are some of the issues with monogamy being promoted as the
11:26only ethical way of having relationships. So you touched upon jealousy over there.
11:34So jealousy, like you mentioned, is often seen as a challenge in relationships, right? Yeah. So
11:42based on the case studies you have included in the book, how does it typically manifest
11:49in polyamorous dynamics, you know, and what are some of the ways that people navigate it?
11:57Yeah. So, you know, the thing is, this, this is very interesting, because a lot of people
12:02ask that, aren't you jealous? Of course, I mean, jealousy is there. Some people are less jealous
12:08than others, some people are more jealous than others. And that's there in a polyamorous
12:12relationship, as much as it is there in any other relationship. I must say, I've also met
12:17people who are not jealous, they were either not jealous from the beginning, or they have
12:21worked on themselves to reach a position in their emotional state when they don't feel
12:26jealousy anymore. And those, and that's, that's really the, the place even I want to reach,
12:31but not there yet. So yes, many of us feel jealous. I think the very first thing one needs to do is
12:38understand what this jealousy is. It can be very different things for different people,
12:42it can arise out of different things. And none of those things are on the outside of yourself.
12:48That's the first thing to understand. The jealousy is not coming from outside,
12:53it normally comes from within you, it could be that you will be displaced, or abandoned,
13:00or deserted. Like you see a room with only one chair, and if somebody else is sitting on that
13:04chair, means you're standing. So it also comes from this idea that love is finite.
13:12So if somebody else is eating it, then obviously, you're not getting it. So that's a huge fallacy,
13:18because love is not, I mean, nobody asks a mother, right? If you have four kids, that are you,
13:23how are you going to manage loving four kids? Nobody's ever asked a mother that. However,
13:28in relationships, you get asked that and that feeling is very deep. So there's also a feeling
13:34jealousy comes from feelings of competition. Because from the time we are a child,
13:38we are taught that our worth isn't winning. Even parents smile broader when the child has won
13:45something, most parents, though, I must say that parenting is shifting some of it towards the good
13:51and this is not being encouraged that much. And to lose is to fail, actually. And that sense of
13:59competitiveness becomes about whether you won a person, it also leads to or lost a person and
14:05jealousy comes out of that. So essentially, first understand where it comes from. And once you've
14:11detected what that part of you is causing it, talk about it, share it, either with your partner,
14:19if that's possible, with your lover, if that's possible, or with another safe space, maybe a
14:24close friend. But the idea is actually to go through it, and to live it, and to understand it
14:31and slowly work on it. I think what helps is remembering good times remembering that the love
14:37has not disappeared. If my partner is enjoying their time with somebody else does not mean in
14:46any way that the time that they enjoy with us is lower than or has been erased or has disappeared.
14:54It is still there, but its value needs to be recalled. You need to remember it because it's so
15:00easy to forget. So I think there's a whole series of things that one could do to deal with it. But
15:06the first thing is to accept it, understand it, live with it, talk about it, share it, and know
15:12that it's natural, hoga, and it's all right. What one mustn't do is burden somebody else with its
15:20result. Burden your partner, blame your partner, because it's your feeling and your responsibility
15:27to deal with it, like any other. That was very insightful, Anugrati. I think, even when you're
15:34friends with people, right, and you think of someone as your best friend, and even in friendships,
15:40jealousy can arrive. But I think, very much, very much to do with, you know, close friendships.
15:48I mean, that's why a lot of people, and including me, I don't make those distinctions between
15:54friendships and relationships. I think these distinctions are very, very superficial,
16:03and come out of fear, more than anything else. So jealousy is as much exactly like you're saying
16:09with best friends happens all the time. But again, if you know, there are people who are
16:14considering polyamory, what guidelines and insights would you suggest to help them navigate
16:21it in a healthy and ethical way? Like, like you mentioned, you know, like you don't differentiate
16:26between friends and relationships. And you know, it's more about connecting with people.
16:31So how can one navigate, you know, a polyamorous dynamic? So, you know, obviously, I mean, I would
16:38say, read the book. But, but there are, let me say a few things. I think what is important to
16:45understand is that polyamory is something unlike monogamy, or monomory, which is very set,
16:52there's one way of doing it, mostly, which is not to have sex with anyone else outside of that
16:57relationship. But in polyamory, people define what it means for them. So that's the first step,
17:05to understand what are you in for, what is acceptable to you, and what are the boundaries
17:12and permissions that you're dealing with. So you create your own blueprint of how it's going to
17:17work with the people that you wanted to work with. And two things to remember, one that you're
17:23comfortable, you should not do anything that makes you uncomfortable. And if you are uncomfortable
17:28with something, but you still want to do it, then be aware of how much risk you're taking. Each of
17:34us have different appetites of risk. So the same formula doesn't apply for all. Like in a financial
17:40situation, you and I will take different decisions, right? Because our risk appetite is different.
17:46Love is like that as well. So you have to be aware of how much risk are you able to take? Can you
17:53take? Do you have other safety mechanisms? Do you have fallback options, all of that, right?
17:59So first is comfort, second is risk. And the third thing is safety, to be safe at all times,
18:05and to know what safety means to you. Again, safety is different things to different people.
18:10And so understanding that, and overall, a sense of communication, and honesty. I think these two
18:17form very key pillars of any relationship, I would say, but more so polyamory, because in polyamory,
18:26anything you say, do, transgress matters to multiple lives, not just, it's not just an
18:33equation between two people. It's a more complicated mathematical problem where multiple people's lives
18:39get, you know, affect. This is one of the questions that I think people would like to
18:45know is, how would you differentiate between open relationships and polyamory? Are there key
18:53distinctions? Or do they overlap in some ways? You know, language is language, right? And
19:00meanings of language are given by people who live that language. Now, I have tried to define
19:05polyamory in my own way, saying that polyamory is the desire, ability and practice of loving more
19:14than one person, with or without sexual intimacies, with the consent of all. That's how I have framed
19:20the definition. Now, this definition of polyamory may be slightly different from how other people
19:27may want to define it. For some people, for example, polyamory might be only when they have
19:34both emotional and romantic and sexual relationship. Open relationships, as I understand,
19:41is when you are in one relationship with a person, but you're open to having other sexual
19:49relationships, physical relationships outside of it, but not romantic or emotional, from what I
19:55understand. Therefore, the idea is that your intimate, romantic, emotional, commitment
20:04relationship is the one that you hold at the center of your life. But you give permission,
20:09both people give permission to each other to dabble in other alliances, in other, but mostly
20:17physical and sexual, not emotional. The moment it gets into emotional intimacies, romantic intimacies,
20:25you need to start talking to each other again and say, hey, maybe we are moving in from open
20:30relationships into polyamory. Interestingly, there's one interview in the book where the couple
20:36is exactly at that point where they have played with open relationships for a while, and now
20:44they are looking at moving into polyamory because they realize that they may be intimately, romantically
20:51attached to other people. So, I would say not overlap, but a flow. One could flow from one to the other.
20:59Yeah, otherwise it's also possible that you might at some point decide, okay, I want to now not open
21:06my life up so much. We will just keep open relationships where we will both give permission
21:11to each other to have sexual relationships. But intimate, romantic, intimate, committed, emotional
21:18relationships will be only with this. So, you can decide that. I feel a book on polyamory or
21:24conversations around polyamory is mainly about this freedom that we give ourselves, this permission
21:31that we give ourselves to be able to charter the trajectories our desires will take in a way
21:39that is not arm twisted by or coerced by powers of society, so to say, you know.
21:48I wanted to ask about this very interesting section in the book, which was how to cope
21:54with loneliness. You have referred to it throughout the book, but you have dedicated like a
22:00section to it as well. So, polyamory, like you mentioned, is the desire to connect with multiple
22:06people. But you mentioned in the book that loneliness can still persist, despite having
22:13multiple partners. Could you elaborate on that a little bit? When I like sort of confess to myself
22:20that I'm polyamorous, and I had realized by then that having multiple partners doesn't mean that
22:27your loneliness will go away. And so there was a time because your partners may not be available,
22:32because you're not, you know, living with anybody particularly, etc. So your loneliness is there.
22:37When you want to share something, they may not be available, etc, etc, for various reasons. Because
22:43in a monoamorous or monogamous relationship, it is expected that a couple is going to spend their
22:49birthdays together, their festivals together, their holidays together, it's almost expected.
22:55Now they do it out of love, but also often out of optics, that the family expects that the
23:01couple is going to be together for festivals, for example. I was wondering whether, you know,
23:07is monohamory then or monogamy, then the antidote to loneliness, but it isn't. Because so many of
23:13my friends have told me who live in monogamous relationships, that probably the loneliest
23:20is when you do have that one person, where you do sleep with that one person every night, and you
23:26feel terribly lonely. Bheer ke beech akela is probably, you know, sort of the worst, worst kind of
23:32loneliness. Monohamory has not been an antidote either. So then I went looking for where does
23:39loneliness come from. And I figured for myself, at least that loneliness is, has got very little
23:46to do with the outside world, or how much time you're spending with your lover, or whether
23:51you have your lover is present there or not, your partner is there or not. It has more to do with
23:57your relationship with yourself, and your own understanding of our ability to cope with
24:06not being desired, not being needed. How do you feel about that? Your own desire to connect
24:13to things. Unfortunately, in our sort of societies, you know, the moment we say loneliness,
24:20the only solution is found in a partner, or in a couple kind of love. It's unfortunate,
24:27because there are so many ways in which we can connect to things that are larger than us,
24:31which can fill us with a similar kind of joy. It could be being part of our friends and family's
24:37lives, it could be being part of things that we care about, it could be the neighborhood, it could be
24:44causes that we feel strongly about. And each of these would make our connections to other people,
24:53other things, stronger. And I think that's the antidote to loneliness, rather than
25:00trying to find it again, in that one partner, or multiple partners. Who do you hope this book
25:07speaks to or resonates with? Yeah, you know, I was thinking when I was writing it, because
25:13there's a manner in which you, how do you write it? And who do you want this book to be for?
25:20I find, I figured that this book is for different people. Obviously, it is for polyamorous people,
25:25who are in the practice, who, as I said, will feel hopefully less lonely, but also might find
25:32some answers to their own struggles that they're dealing with. Secondly, this book is for people
25:38who have polyamorous partners. They may be monogamous themselves, but they might want to
25:43understand what goes on with their partners. And this book might be useful for them. Three,
25:49this book might be useful for people who are currently in monogamous or monogamous relationships,
25:56but wants to open out and see what is there on the other side. Fourthly, this book is for people
26:03who are leading monogamous relationships, who are going through its own struggles and difficulties,
26:09have not decided to open up or anything, but just might need a few other perspectives. So,
26:16this book might help them open up to certain things that they're currently not finding in
26:23their practice of monogamy. And finally, I think it's for anybody who's curious, who's curious to
26:29know what these kind of lives can be about, the joys, the sorrows, the ups and downs, and everything
26:38that comes with it. Okay, lovely. Thank you so much, Arundhati, for speaking to me in Outlook.
26:45This was really insightful. And all the best with your book. We are all looking forward to reading it.