At a House Oversight Committee hearing last week, Rep. Andy Biggs (R-AZ) and Rep. Michael Cloud (R-TX) debated an amendment on unions for federal government employees.
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00:00Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My amendment would exempt the Border Patrol from the particulars of this legislation.
00:07I want to indicate and remind people that this is
00:12the underlying bill,
00:14and I respect the bill's sponsor,
00:18actually is dealing with the change with elections and is permissive, not mandatory.
00:24So, let's- in
00:262018, President Trump issued an executive order ensuring transparency, accountability, and efficiency in taxpayer-funded union time use.
00:34It instructed federal agencies to renegotiate the collective bargaining agreements and cut official time,
00:40saying that, quote, executive branch employees should spend their duty hours performing the work of the federal government and serving the public, close quote.
00:48In November of 2019, a new collective bargaining agreement for the Border Patrol Council took effect with President Trump's support.
00:56The agreement expanded the number of border agents whose roles as union officers allow them to engage in political activity and
01:03increase the amount of hours agents could spend on union activities. Under the previous agreement, agents could utilize
01:0918,000 hours of official time per year, and under the new agreement, they can utilize
01:14153,000 hours per year. That's a
01:17equivalent of roughly 74 full-time employees.
01:21While union representatives generally use official time hours to work on employee grievances and other labor-related matter,
01:27they can also advocate for specific border policies, and that is what they did under the previous administration.
01:33And they did that because the previous administration destroyed our
01:39border security
01:41policies. So, consider how beneficial that time was under the Biden administration. It turned out to be
01:50serendipitous, actually.
01:52For instance, the NBPC
01:54assisted with several trips to the border for members of Congress.
01:58The NBPC officials were on TV constantly during the Biden administration, telling the truth to the public about the border crisis.
02:06Were it not for them and a select few dedicated reporters, the world would not have known how bad it was.
02:13The NBPC defended the Border Patrol agent who was falsely accused of whipping Haitian migrants in Texas.
02:20Amid a rise in assaults on Border Patrol agents,
02:24601 in fiscal year 23 and over 400 in fiscal year 24,
02:28the NBPC has defended agents by calling out the Biden administration for insufficient action.
02:34And one more. Following the May 2022 Uvalde shooting, in which Border Patrol agents, including BORTAC,
02:42were among the first responders, the NBPC provided the emotional
02:47counseling and professional support to agents and the community.
02:52So,
02:54that is
02:56important here. But the other thing that's important to understand about this particular union is
03:01they were the only group
03:04under DHS that was not getting paid overtime and got no raises.
03:10And in the NDAA of 2023, the NDAA included provisions spearheaded by NBPC,
03:20which I supported
03:21via other legislation to allow agents to earn time and a half for overtime for hours 81 to 100 in a pay period,
03:28which they otherwise were not getting.
03:31This association has been uniquely positioned, and
03:36I want to just talk about something that one of my colleagues was, in a previous iteration,
03:44previous argument was talking about.
03:47These agents, I've literally been out in agents in places that were so remote you could not reach
03:56anyone.
03:59And I have met with agents who were attacked, assaulted,
04:04seriously injured in these places where no one else is and no one else goes.
04:11Other times I've been with agents who've literally had to stand on top of the the roof of their truck
04:19to try to reach a signal
04:21to report to other agents to please come pick up a group. That particular group that time there was 22 people.
04:28I've I've literally been with agents when there's been a group of three. There's been groups
04:34totaling 300 people together, and it's been me, a couple of congressmen, and one agent
04:42as they deal with 300 individuals coming in. I have respect for what they do.
04:47I think they deserve this cutout, and that's why I'm doing it. I also
04:52intend to
04:53support the underlying bill. I have great respect for Mr. Cloud and his efforts in this area.
04:57He's been a leader here, but that's where I stand, and I thank you, and I yield back.
05:03Gentleman yields back. Chair?
05:10Yeah, Kassar.
05:12Chair, I have a very, well, first of all, I'd say to Mr. Biggs and to the point of this amendment, I certainly
05:21support the Border Patrol agents, CBAs, to be respected, and also
05:27am, of course, alarmed by the dangers that
05:33agents face, and of course by any violence against any federal employee or federal agent.
05:38My question for the sponsor of the amendment, I really am interested in having some discussion on this point, is
05:44why not also include
05:47other people who put their lives at risk that work for the federal government?
05:51I was just in conversation with federal employees that literally fly a plane into a hurricane at NOAA
05:58to go and let us know when and where a hurricane is going to hit. It's probably the most dangerous job on earth.
06:06Shouldn't we extend and make sure that their workplace protections and their workplace contracts have to be respected?
06:12Shouldn't FBI agents, who also put their lives on the line, have their CBA
06:18agreements respected? Shouldn't our
06:20veterans, who have served and then come back and serve at the DOD and a variety of other agencies, also have their collective bargaining agreements
06:29also protected? For the reasons, in fact, where I actually
06:34genuinely do agree here with Congressman Biggs, that if we're going to respect that work,
06:39why would we come in and say we're going to
06:43not respect the collective bargaining agreement where you have, in good faith,
06:47bargained back and forth to the government and come to an agreement?
06:49And so that's my genuine question, and I have time to yield back to the sponsor of the amendment or anybody else
06:55that would answer that.
06:58Jim, yields back. Chair? No, no, I just, I don't, I would yield. I'm saying I would yield to anybody that has that answer.
07:09In a moment, I'm going to yield to Mr. Lynch, but I just, I want to better understand if we're going to, as I believe we should,
07:20honor the collective bargaining agreements of Border Patrol agents,
07:24why not also honor the collective bargaining agreements of FBI agents?
07:28Why not also honor the collective bargaining agreements of Department of Defense workers that have served in our military?
07:34Why not also honor the collective bargaining agreements of people that put their lives on the line to protect us from natural disasters?
07:48Mr. Chairman, without a response, I'll yield a minute here to Mr. Lynch. Great. I
07:54agree with the gentleman's reasoning. Not only is there a
07:59sense of fairness at play here, but there's also the due process clause of the Fifth Amendment.
08:04So,
08:05we cannot have a situation where the constitutional right to contract
08:10is unprotected for these unions because
08:13we have a new president, and so he can just rip up the contract and say, okay,
08:19your rights are destroyed, and we're going to start fresh, and I'm going to negotiate an agreement that
08:27probably could be overturned by the next president.
08:30You know, that doesn't work.
08:32Not for workers in the least bit. And Mr. Lynch,
08:35it sounded like part of the reason the amendment was laid out was because one union
08:41supported one political cause or candidate versus another.
08:44Exactly. And so you would see that as a violation of equal treatment under the law, equal right to contract,
08:50because it sounds like the sponsor laid out,
08:55which one of the unions that supported one candidate for president,
08:58another union that supported a different candidate for president, and wanting to respect the contracting rights for people that supported their preferred candidate versus not.
09:06Exactly. It
09:07allows a
09:10political dimension to this that is inappropriate. Thank you. I yield back. Chairman,
09:16and now we have the sponsor of the amendment back, and so I would genuinely yield time
09:21to him if that's allowed here. I want to voice my support for
09:27allowing CBAs to carry on for all of the different people at all the different agencies that put their lives on the line
09:34for the American people. So I would want to extend this to
09:38FBI agents, to people that fly their planes into the heart of the storm at NOAA.
09:42I just want to get a better understanding because what I just laid out with Mr. Lynch is it sounds like we want to
09:48treat certain people one way because of their political views and other people another way because of their views, and I'm
09:53opposed to that, and I will continue to be opposed to that whether there's a Democratic or Republican
09:57president. So I want to better understand why not
10:00extend this to the other federal employees that put their lives at risk every day.
10:07Chairman, I still have some time, so I don't know if the sponsor of the amendment or others would want to speak up.
10:16I think I made my position very clear
10:19in both the earlier amendment that I ran and my statement with this amendment,
10:25and I will just tell you
10:27most of those agencies that you just referred to, they were not being attacked by their bosses, their administrators.
10:37CBP was.
10:39And Mr. Biggs, I would work with you and anyone else to make sure that workers are not attacked by
10:46administrators, no matter which
10:48presidential
10:49candidate or whichever presidential administration we are under, and we should support the free speech rights of those employees
10:56regardless of whether they agree with my preferred candidate or not.
10:59But it sounds like what we're talking about now is giving people certain rights because
11:03they had certain political ideas instead of others, and I believe American workers have the right to speak up whether they agree with me or
11:09not. Unfortunately, it sounds like the Republican majority thinks otherwise.
11:15Any other membership? Mr. Cloud?
11:18I, as much as respect as I have for Mr. Biggs, I speak in opposition to this amendment.
11:25I agree with Mr. Biggs and everything he said about our Border Patrol. I've been to the border
11:31with Mr. Biggs, and also I'm from South Texas, so I've been there on my own a number of times.
11:38And it's true. The work they do is
11:41heroic,
11:43and it's also true that they were
11:46unfairly treated by the the previous administration.
11:51However, for the the same reasons that,
11:54similar reasons, I should say, that Mr. Lynch and Mr. Kassan brought up, I
11:59think we run into dangerous grounds when
12:02there's a very good chance that the Border Patrol Union is my favorite union, but I think that's the point, is
12:08we should be treating
12:09them all fairly, and this comes down to really the question of does the executive have the authority to
12:16be the executive, and to manage his workforce or her workforce if the time comes.
12:23And so,
12:25that's simply what it is, and so I think it's a dangerous precedent to start making
12:29caveats, and for that I must oppose this amendment. And I thank the chairman for the time, and yield back.
12:36Any other members seek
12:38recognition? Seeing none, we will now,
12:43the question is now on the amendment offered by Mr. Biggs.