India's neighbour is at a critical crossroads, whether political, economic and religious. Top Bangladesh Editor Mahfuz Anam analyses the challenges.
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00:00Meanwhile, there is a talk of a possible meeting between Prime Minister Narendra Modi and
00:04Mohammed Yunus, the leader of Bangladesh, at the BIMSTEC Summit in Thailand in the first week of April.
00:13BIMSTEC, as you know, is the acronym for the Bay of Bengal Initiative for Multisectoral,
00:18Technical and Economic Cooperation and has altogether seven members from South Asia and Southeast Nations.
00:24Of course, India and Bangladesh are members.
00:26Yunus's government and also Mr. Tauhid, we have reiterated very much that we need a very good
00:33relationship with them. We need understanding and we need deep collaboration, cooperation with India.
00:38This is the Bangladesh's official position, Bangladesh's chief advisor's position. He called
00:45about it many, many times and we have proposed a meeting with Prime Minister Modi
00:51on the outskirts of BIMSTEC. But however, it is also true, Raj, and I will say it very openly,
00:57that on the public sphere, if you go onto the streets of Bangladesh, there is a strong anti-India feeling.
01:05The Bangladesh army, which has played a crucial behind-the-scenes role in the transition,
01:10has also signalled concern over the spiralling situation and if you recall in a rare public
01:15speech in early, I think, March 2025, the army chief, General Waqar Uzzaman, warned that the
01:21country, as I mentioned earlier, was in an anarchic state.
01:24Is Bangladesh going Islamist and all that? And is it going the Pakistan way you mentioned?
01:30I mean, this is where I urge, starting with you personally and other journalists, that to take a
01:38more serious look into Bangladesh. You know, I think, you see, Pakistan is a Muslim-majority
01:45country and you have your own experience with Pakistan, which I'm not going to go into. But
01:53Bangladesh also happens to be a Muslim-majority country. Now, I am afraid, and this is what I'm
02:00going to plead with you, that your experience of Pakistan, which is a Muslim-majority country,
02:07that experience is being refocused on Bangladesh because we are a Muslim-majority country. Yes,
02:13we are a Muslim-majority country, but we are the ones that broke Pakistan. We are the ones,
02:19so what are we? We are very proud Bengalis and we are also very proud Muslims.
02:29Nothing but the truth. Hello, I'm Raj Chengup of India Today and your host for Nothing but
02:35the Truth. This is my weekly x-ray of key issues that matter to you without holding back on the truth.
02:47Ever since Sheikh Hasina was toppled as Prime Minister of Bangladesh in August last year
02:53by a massive student protest, the country's relations with India have been strained.
03:00India had charged the new interim government, headed by Mohammad Yunus, with not preventing
03:06religious persecution of the Hindu minorities and wanted protection for their lives and property.
03:13India also expressed concern over the perceived growth of Islamization in Bangladesh and its
03:20leaning towards its arch-rivals, China and Pakistan, in its foreign relations. Meanwhile,
03:26the performance of the new dispensation headed by Yunus, a Nobel Peace Prize winner,
03:31has been regarded as mixed. The Yunus government claims it has stemmed the economic freefall
03:37and is ushering political, judicial and governance reforms. But concerns remain over the poor law
03:44and order situation, the lack of foreign investments coming in, rising inflation and,
03:50of course, persistent unemployment issues. There is also a perception that Yunus is seen as a
03:57puppet in the hands of radical Islamist student groups who are changing the fundamental principles
04:04of the government. That's one of the criticisms. The Bangladesh army has signaled its concern with
04:08the army chief, General Waqar uz-Zaman, warning that the country, and I'm quoting him,
04:14was in a state of anarchy and cautioned that if political divisions and unrest continue
04:20unabated, again quoting him, the independence and the sovereignty of this country will be at stake.
04:27Meanwhile, there is a talk of a possible meeting between Prime Minister Narendra Modi and
04:32Mohammed Yunus, the leader of Bangladesh, at the BIMSTEC summit in Thailand in the first week of
04:39April. BIMSTEC, as you know, is the acronym for the Bay of Bengal Initiative for Multisectoral
04:45Technical and Economic Cooperation and has altogether seven members from South Asia
04:50and Southeast nations. Of course, India and Bangladesh are members. So in this episode of
04:55Nothing But The Truth, we will analyze the internal situation in Bangladesh, the performance of the
05:00interim government headed by Mohammed Yunus, and also with the possibility of a Modi-Yunus meeting
05:07at Thailand. Will the frosty relations between the two countries thaw? To help me analyze these
05:13issues, let me welcome, and I'm delighted to be joined by Mahfuz Anand, the distinguished
05:20editor of The Daily Star, the country's largest English daily, and a very old friend of mine.
05:26Mahfuz is seen as one of the most influential Bangladeshi editors and is known for his
05:32forthright comments. So Mahfuz Anand, welcome to Nothing But The Truth. Thank you very much for
05:38inviting me. Mahfuz, it is now seven and a half months since Mohammed Yunus has headed the interim
05:45government. He had been nominated with the promise of ushering major reforms on all fronts,
05:50whether political, economic, governance, and security. How would you rate Yunus's performance
05:56on these fronts that I mentioned? Well, to start with, I would give him a mixed grade. In some areas,
06:05he has done very well. In others, much less than hoped for. And also, it has to be understood that
06:13the Hasina government was there for 15 years. She was a very powerful leader. And as such,
06:22when she left, there was a great power vacuum. And if you remember that Yunus was in Paris,
06:30he came on the 8th, when Hasina left on the 5th. So there were three days, literally,
06:37our country without any government. And it is in these three days that the maximum of the
06:44violence and attack on the minorities, there were some prison breaks, some extremists
06:51broke out of prison. So much of the chaos took in those first few days. And then he came,
06:59he took oath, his initial team members were also quite randomly picked. I know for a fact that he
07:07didn't know personally many of those individuals. So one can raise a question, how come he took
07:14them in the cabinet not knowing them so well. So there was a lot of, if you like, uncertainties,
07:20mixed bag, a team of interim government ministers who didn't ever work with each other. Many of
07:27them had no experience of running a government. So all these things led to initial, I would say,
07:34mismanagement, a misdirection, and some policy, lack of policies.
07:41Now, after the seven months, it is much more stable, I must say. And also the economy,
07:48I mean, just to start off with the inflation, which was the most dangerous thing, has now
07:55steadied. Now, the last two months have seen a decline in the inflation rate. And also our
08:05exports have now equaled what we had before. For example, last year, we had about 19 billion,
08:1419.9 billion export. We now, this year, we have the same level. So Taka has stabilized against
08:22the dollar. Our remittance has surged. So in a way, you can say that we are out of that sense
08:30of an economic collapse or something like that. We are now, if you like, steady as she goes.
08:39Great. But let's come to the political front. I will deal a little more with the economy a
08:43little later in the show. But perhaps the most significant development is the birth of a new
08:49political party rooted in the youth uprising. Last month, I think it was on February 28th,
08:55that leaders of the student protest that ousted Haseena formally launched what they call the
09:01National Citizens Party, or NCP. Now, you know that Bangladesh's politics had for long been
09:06dominated by two family-led parties, the Haseena's, Sheikh Haseena's Awami League,
09:11and, of course, Khalid Aziz's Bangladesh Nationalist Party, or BNP. Now, the NCP,
09:17in some senses, marks the first time, the formation marks the first time in decades
09:22that Bangladesh has somewhat... the binary politics of Bangladesh is facing a serious
09:28challenge. And at a rally in Dhaka, I think the NCP leaders vowed to build a second republic
09:36and wanted to break free from the old narratives of what they said secularists versus Islamists
09:41and India versus Pakistan alignments. Again, just to give a sense of what's happened there,
09:46Nahid Islam, the 26-year-old symbol of the July uprising, has been named the convener
09:52or interim head of the NCP after resigning from his post in UNICEF's cabinet to lead the party.
09:57So, Marfuz, just with that background, what is the significance of this new
10:01political party's entry and when are elections likely to be held?
10:05Okay. Now, the coming of this new political party is definitely something I personally
10:12look forward to, simply because, as you have said, we have been in a politically binary situation,
10:19BNP or Awam League, Awam League or BNP. They really oscillated on a five-year term
10:26before Hasina settled for the last 15 years. But before that, from 1991, the year we call
10:34Restoration of Democracy, which marks the fall of General Irshad, we had this five-year period in
10:40which they oscillated between these two parties. So, this is a new party. By the way, we also must
10:47remember that there was a party formed by Irshad called Jatiyo Party. There is another party called
10:53Jamaat-e-Islami, which is among the oldest of parties. Its roots lie in partition India.
11:00And then they had a severe dip in Bangladesh politics because they sided with the Pakistan
11:08army and they were publicly against our independence. So, now in the present state, the
11:15coming of the student party is a new element, you can say. We are yet to see. But it is also to be
11:23understood that once they form a political party, the students will have to now, if you like, fall
11:29into a political culture. Before that, they were ready to sloganeer and everything. They toppled
11:36Hasina. So, there's a lot of, if you like, sense of accomplishment, something that BNP couldn't do,
11:42something that no other political party could do. We did it in a matter of several months of
11:48agitation. So, that sense of confidence still permeates among them. They have the sense that
11:54they can transform Bangladesh the way they want. So, that confidence is there. But when they
12:02come to the political reality and particularly the election. Now, election is a very significant
12:09development we are all looking forward to. Number one, it is now more or less decided that it will
12:14be in December 2025 or maximum January. So, December, January months are the ones that are now
12:24focused on. But student parties have publicly said that they prefer reforms to election. And
12:32it is understandable because they are so new that they are a bit afraid of going to the polls, which
12:39may show that they don't have much public support. So, that will reduce their traction. BNP, on the
12:46other hand, is literally sitting outside the door to enter into power because they were the two big
12:54parties, BNP and Awamalik. Awamalik is now, in a way, isolated. So, BNP is really waiting in the
13:03wings to come. So, BNP very much wanting election, students not so eager, and Jamaat-e-Islami, which
13:11is now a very big factor in Bangladesh's politics, they are ambivalent. They don't mind waiting
13:18because, you know, religion-based parties, they have a timeline, big, they are all willing to wait,
13:26you know, 10, 15 years, they don't mind. On the other hand, so, they are ambivalent about it.
13:33They want election. If it happens, they will participate. If it is postponed, they are not
13:38too bothered about it. So, this is the situation. However, the bottom line here is that the nation
13:44wants an election and the biggest, if you like, gripe or criticism of Hasina was that in the last
13:52three elections, 1914, sorry, 2014, 2018, and 2024, all these elections were so severely manipulated
14:01that large number of voters couldn't vote. So, there is a tremendous eagerness in the
14:08Bangladesh environment today to hold election and the voters want their right to vote restored to
14:15them. So, this is the situation. We are going towards an election in December, most likely,
14:21unless it is for some very dramatic reason, it is postponed, which I don't really foresee.
14:28And so, that's the situation at the moment.
14:31Right. Now, if you look at what Indian experts have been talking about the coming elections,
14:37they have expressed concern that the new NCP party is dominated, they say, by radical Islamic
14:43elements and that the Jamaat-e-Islami party, which you had mentioned is also gaining ground.
14:48There is concern that Bangladesh is shedding its secular origins. And one example that is
14:54cited is that the reforms commission that the UNESCO government had set up on the constitution
14:59has dropped the words nationalism, socialism, and secularism as its fundamental principles,
15:05and in its place has proposed equality, human dignity, social justice, and I think pluralism
15:12as its guiding principles. So, is Bangladesh's secular foundations under threat? And will it go
15:18the Islamic way as many Indian experts are commenting, as we had seen in Pakistan?
15:25Okay, now, this is very important. And I think this is one of the most vital things that Indian
15:31scholars and Bangladeshi scholars, Indian journalists, Bangladeshi journalists, I mean,
15:37we really must address this very, very important issue. Now, students have made some demands,
15:46the constitutional commission made this recommendation, but the biggest party in
15:52Bangladesh today, BNP, has opposed it. And they have very strongly said that they want
15:59the old priorities brought back like secularism, nationalism, democracy. So, here you have a clear
16:07case of the biggest party today opposing these changes, and students are supporting an election
16:16will determine. Now, Jamaat-e-Islami as a party, you know, traditionally, it has always been open,
16:25Jamaat-e-Islami, except for the first few years of our independence, they have operated and they
16:32participated in many elections, and they never got more than 5 to 6%. And at a point in alliance
16:41with BNP, they got about 8% vote. So, that has been their historic voting support. They might
16:49get a little more percentage, maybe up to 10. I don't see it going beyond that. But on the bigger
16:57question of is Bangladesh going Islamist and all that, and is it going the Pakistan way you
17:03mentioned, I mean, this is where I urge, starting with you personally, and other journalists,
17:10that to take a more serious look into Bangladesh. You know, I think, you see, in Pakistan is a Muslim
17:20majority country, and you have your own experience with Pakistan, which is I'm not going to go into.
17:27But we also happen, Bangladesh also happens to be a Muslim majority country. Now, I am afraid,
17:34and this is what I'm going to plead with you, that your experience of Pakistan, which is a
17:41Muslim majority country, that experience is being refocused on Bangladesh, because we are a Muslim
17:47majority country. Yes, we are a Muslim majority country, but we are the ones that broke Pakistan.
17:54We are the one. So, what are we? We are very proud Bengalis, and we are also very proud Muslims.
18:02Now, if we are a bit religious, now, in India, the BJP is far more Hindu religion based than
18:12Congress was. You have a history of, you know, secular India, which is now Hindutva India, and
18:20your voters have chosen that. But India hasn't changed. India's relationship with Bangladesh
18:25hasn't changed. India's relationship with the world hasn't changed. But you have changed in the terms
18:31of giving more importance to your religion. So, if in Bangladesh, we end up giving a little more
18:38importance to our religion, as also our culture, then don't be so afraid. Don't become so, in a way,
18:47paranoid that, my God, Bangladesh is supposed to be Bengali. Now, they're talking about being Muslim.
18:53So, we have to be very concerned. I think here, a fundamental introspection, a fundamental
19:01rethinking should come. Just to go back to a little bit in history, that when in 1947, India
19:09was partitioned into Pakistan and India, the Bengali Muslims in Bengal, they voted for Pakistan.
19:18I mean, if you look at the statistics, that majority of Muslim League won in 1946 in Bengal.
19:25But it is the same Bengal, the Bengali Muslim people who broke Pakistan, because within Pakistan,
19:33we felt that our cultural identity was being threatened. So, we are, if you like, inheritors
19:41of a dual civilizational heritage. We have inherited very proud inheritance of Bengali culture
19:50and a very proud inheritance of Islamic culture. But being Islamic in culture doesn't make us
19:57religious fundamentalists. And I urge my Indian friends that don't put us into that trap.
20:05Don't judge us by your experience with Pakistan. Treat us independently.
20:12Yeah, fair enough. Now, as I mentioned earlier, these are Indian comments that are there from
20:18experts that have come and I wanted your point of view on that. I'm also asking you the other
20:23concern that India, Indian experts have expressed and the Indian government too has expressed,
20:28been over the communal tensions, especially the attack of Hindu minorities during the first
20:32couple of months of the regime. And if you notice recently, the RSS, the ideologue of the ruling BJP
20:38party, which had a national meet in Bengaluru, raised the issue of what it called, and I'm
20:43quoting them, quoting the RSS spokesperson, unabated institutionalized and systemic
20:50persecution of Hindus. That's their quote. They also saw it as a larger geopolitical conspiracy
20:56involving Pakistan and the deep state. This is again in quotes, Pakistan and the deep state.
21:00And that, as I had mentioned earlier, radical Islamist groups backed by the current Bangladesh
21:05administration are orchestrating such attacks. Now, what is your view on that? Because I'd like
21:09a Bangladesh point of view. We've got what the Indians have said. What do you say about such
21:15comments? My first belief, urge, request would be that I would like to think of it as an RSS point
21:24of view, not as an Indian point of view. Because if this point of view turns into an Indian point
21:30of view, then we are really in a big trouble. RSS is a highly motivated ideology based party.
21:38And if you go and ask our own Jamaat-e-Islami, they are an ideology based party. They will have
21:44a view about India, which is not shared by the people of Bangladesh. So, I would like to look at
21:51it as an RSS point of view. I would like to hope that India Today magazine and other scholars in
22:00India look at us in a more independent light. There is no Islamic conspiracy. Now, within India,
22:10there are also groups who may want India to be something else, a much more ideologically
22:16Hindu country. They may want it inside Bangladesh. I think there could be a group who would like to
22:23say Islamic Bangladesh and all that. But we are 180 million people. You wait till we have the
22:30election in December and you see how non, you know, like communal parties get the majority vote.
22:38So, fair enough, Mahfuz. That's okay. I was only talking about the fact that the Indian
22:44government had pointed out about the persecution of Hindus and, you know, about their livelihoods.
22:50Where does that thing stand? There were problems in the initial months. Does that persist? What is
22:55your assessment of the situation and why did it happen in your assessment?
23:00Right. It did happen and I think it was our weakness. We should never allow this thing to
23:07happen. But this government has taken care of it. It has firmly stopped it. And if you remove the
23:15first two, three months of incidents, then I think you will get a more fairer picture about
23:21Bangladesh. But yes, minority issues, Raj, it keeps on coming back in India also. After all your effort,
23:30the Hindu-Muslim issue comes back. Now, I cannot also say that we have totally gotten rid of that
23:37curse, if you like. So, we are struggling. The South Asian continent is struggling. India is
23:45struggling. We are struggling. And in that term of secularism, in the term of modernization,
23:51I think we should help each other and move forward. That is my view. I will not say that
23:57we have totally overcome it. But we are also not such a vicious, you know, communal country.
24:04Fair enough. If you look at what happened in terms of our relations, it went to its lowest
24:09ebb. And then we've had meetings with various counterparts between India and Bangladesh.
24:16In late February, External Affairs Minister Jaishankar had met your current advisor on
24:22foreign affairs of the interim government. And while it seemed to be that there was a thaw
24:28happening, Jaishankar seemed to have commented that, you know, in another forum that the interim
24:34government had somewhat taken a hostile approach towards India. That's his quotes. And he noted
24:39that officials in Dhaka, and again in quotes, keep blaming India for all their problems,
24:45even while professing to want good relations. And he then went on to say, again, I'm quoting him,
24:52that such conduct is contradictory and unproductive, implying that Bangladesh's
24:58interim leadership must decide whether it truly seeks friendship or wishes to use India's escape
25:03code. Now, this is a really unusually blunt statement coming after, as I said, the meeting
25:08with Tawhid Hussain, your foreign affairs advisor in Muscat. And what is your sense of India's
25:17concern? And how can relations come back to what it was earlier? What is stopping India,
25:23relations with India and Bangladesh from, you know, proceeding as they did in the past?
25:28What are the roadblocks you see or what are the ways out?
25:31Okay, I mean, I would like to first separate some of the, let's say, public views on the streets,
25:39vis-a-vis the government. I think Yunus's government and also Mr. Tawhid, we have reiterated
25:45very much that we need a very good relationship with India, we need understanding and we need
25:50deep collaboration, cooperation with India. This is the Bangladesh's official position,
25:55Bangladesh's chief advisor's position. He called about it many, many times and we have proposed
26:03a meeting with Prime Minister Modi on the outskirts of BIMSTEC. But however, it is also
26:09true, Raj, and I will say it very openly, that on the public sphere, if you go onto the streets
26:15of Bangladesh, there is a strong anti-India feeling. Now, this anti-India feeling, I would
26:22say, is not against India as such. It is against India's support for Haseena for all these years.
26:30And again, you know, of course, if there was Haseena and India collaboration, we welcome it.
26:39But Haseena became more and more autocratic as the years went by. Her last three elections. Now,
26:47you just take as a voter, that if the government tries to manipulate election, then
26:53they arrest all the dissidents, they arrest the opposition, they manufacture their own narrative,
27:01and they have to bribe the police to man the voting centers. So, over the years, three times
27:09over, she really, I think, totally forgot the fundamentals of a democratic society, the
27:16fundamentals of an election. And she got into the confidence that she's so good in manipulating
27:22election that all her public accountability is now no more necessary. And the perception in
27:30Bangladesh that India was her partner in all this, because Haseena, you know, towed the Indian line,
27:39quote unquote. That's why India was looking the other way while she was being so oppressive.
27:45However, I personally think that this is a transition stage. The sentiments will come down.
27:54And as we go towards the election, a more realistic approach, I'm talking about at the
27:59public level, a more realistic approach to India will return. Government continues to be very keen
28:07on having a good relationship with India. And we expect, I mean, Mr. Jai Shankar is a highly
28:14praised, internationally recognized, respected foreign minister. He will definitely have much
28:22greater perception. But even these articulations, I'm afraid, in my view, falls into some sort of,
28:30if you like, repetition of what is in the public domain. I mean, to say that we are blaming India
28:36for everything, government has not done so. Maybe some, you know, opinion person somewhere there,
28:42social media people are doing it, but the government has not done so. And I also...
28:46Maybe one of the things, Mahfuz, is that maybe the, you know, the Indian government is waiting
28:51for the elections to happen so they can deal with what they think is a legitimately elected
28:57government. Maybe Bangladesh is looking at it that way too, that, you know, the current
29:02dispensation, or do you think that's also because Sheikh Hasina has taken shelter in India? Is that
29:09a sore point? And that's why this current government is not so hot with, you know, mending relations?
29:15Yeah, Hasina's presence is a factor, but I wouldn't give it to be a very vital factor.
29:21Now, as you say, Raj, that India is waiting to see a more elected government in power,
29:28and that is only natural. I mean, this government is transitory, and Bangladesh also is looking for
29:34a more stable relationship. But, Raj, my concern is that if Indian people start believing
29:43that Bangladesh is a Hindu-hating country, and that Bangladesh is so fundamentalist in Islam
29:51that they're going to attack Hindus all the time, if this belief gets a deeper acceptance
30:00in the Indian public psyche, then where is the future of the relationship? I mean, that's what
30:07I'm afraid of, that please, I mean, judge us for what we do. Don't make the final judgment
30:15on some of the mistakes that we make. Fair enough. Fair enough, Mahfuz. We are not making, I'm just
30:20bringing out the points that are there. We've got about three minutes, five minutes left, and we'll
30:26just, two quick points I want you to look at. One is, of course, there's been concern about
30:31the law and order situation in Bangladesh. I'm sure that's something that is a challenge for
30:36the current administration to have, given the fact that the police was seen as part of Hasina's,
30:41you know, whatever, handmaidens or whatever it is, and a lot of them had been dismissed,
30:45and therefore the army has to take some of the role of internal security and maintenance of that.
30:50Now, the Bangladesh army, which has played a crucial behind-the-scenes role in the transition,
30:55has also signaled concern over the spiraling situation, and if you recall, in a rare public
31:00speech in early, I think, March 2025, the army chief, General Waqar Uzzaman, warned that the
31:07country, as I'd mentioned earlier, was in an anarchic state. Now, do you see that, you know,
31:13this stern warning that the army chief has given to the UNICEF civilian leadership, is it possible
31:21that the army might be tempted or the military might be tempted to intervene, to see that order
31:27is restored, and there could be, as we have seen that in the past, a takeover by the army itself,
31:33if things don't improve, the economy doesn't improve, and the law and order situation deteriorates?
31:38Well, you know, Raj, honestly speaking, if the army wanted to take over, they had a great
31:45opportunity when Hasina fled and Yunus hadn't really arrived. There were three, four days
31:52of total power vacuum, and if the army wanted to, that was their best moment to take over.
31:59So, they did not. Subsequently, in various speeches, the army chief keeps on repeating
32:06that they are only interested in supporting Yunus' government, and the warning that you
32:13referred to, I think was a well-timed one in the sense that it was also directed at the students,
32:19it was directed at some of the, you know, disturbing elements within the country.
32:25His words were a bit too harsh, I think, but it was timely, and it was well taken, and I think
32:32it has had a good impact on the subsequent events. I would like to think, and I feel
32:40confident about it, that army hasn't really taken much interest. There was another time in 2007,
32:48when there was a caretaker government which was backed by the army, and if I may put it
32:54dramatically, they were one step behind the throne. I mean, they were the force behind the
33:00caretaker government. So, they could have taken power at that time also, 2007. For two years,
33:06they helped the country, and they were very much instrumental in organizing the election of 2008,
33:14and they introduced the ID card and other things, but they never took power.
33:19So, today also, I don't think Bangladesh army has learned from its own experience. I don't see
33:27a fear or a possibility of army takeover.
33:32Finally, and we've truly run out of time, but the last question which I wanted to ask you
33:36is, one of the most unexpected geopolitical shifts after Hasina's fall has been the rapprochement
33:42between Bangladesh and Pakistan. If you recall under Sheikh Hasina, bilateral relations with
33:46Pakistan were frosty, marred by historical grievances from the 1971 Bangladesh liberation
33:52war and Hasina's prosecution of pro-Pakistan Islamist leaders, but the new interim leadership
33:58under Yunus has shown willingness to turn the page on this legacy. What are the reasons behind it?
34:05And, you know, India is of course concerned because they see, as Ed mentioned, the RSS saying
34:10there's probably a dark hand behind whatever's happening in Bangladesh, hinting that Pakistan
34:16is getting traction again. Well, Raj, immediately after what happened in Bangladesh, I saw many
34:23Indian media and very respected media saying that this was an ISI plot, you know, and that it was
34:30done by Pakistan and ISI. And I came on some interview and I said that you people think that
34:36we are capable of doing nothing. It is either Indian RAW on one side doing this or Pakistan
34:42ISI doing this. We are just some thumb-sucking population and we can't do anything.
34:49So that, unfortunately, that view continues to persist. Now, under Hasina, our relationship
34:56with Pakistan was totally frozen. Now, we are, you know, we are opening up some trade and
35:05issues. So, you know, Pakistan is a sovereign country. So are we. I would urge my Indian
35:11friends to not to see any security threat. It is basically reaching out to a fellow member of SAR,
35:19a fellow member of South Asia. We had, however, I mean, as a freedom fighter, I still have it.
35:26I wish Pakistan had apologized for their role in 71. I wish that they understood the atrocities
35:34at that time. We still hope that it will come someday. But some sort of a normalization,
35:41I don't think you should read too much in it. It is a part of natural, if you like,
35:48relaxation of the situation in South Asia. Pakistan-India, Pakistan-Bangladesh relationship
35:54is not going to change drastically. Pakistan-Bangladesh relationship is not going to
36:02change us into something else. We are proud Bangladeshis. We are proud Bengalis and proud
36:08Muslims. We will run our affair as we see fit. And please trust us on that.
36:16Afazanam, as usual, you're very lucid. You have very wise insights and you've kept your
36:23equanimity right through even through the hard questions that were asked. Thank you so much
36:28for taking time out to speak to us. I'm sure we've all been more enlightened by what you've said.
36:33Please, please. Thank you for inviting me, Raj. It was a lovely experience. Thank you.
36:38Thank you. And thank you, too, for those who tuned into this episode of Nothing But The Truth.
36:43I look forward to having you with me next week.
36:48Nothing But The Truth.