Join us on To The Point and India Today as we delve into the heated debate over the Waqf Amendment Bill, which has become a rallying point for the opposition ahead of the Bihar elections. The bill's implications for minority rights, political alliances, and the role of the district commissioner in disputes are discussed in depth. Additionally, we cover the communal tensions arising from festival celebrations, with fresh diktats and demands causing friction, including the banning of meat and namaz during festivals. The inclusion of women in Waqf work is also highlighted. Furthermore, we provide comprehensive insights and expert opinions on Russian President Putin's confirmed visit to India following a special invitation from the Prime Minister. Stay informed with in-depth coverage on these critical issues.
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00:00Good evening, you're watching To The Point. I'm Preeti Chaudhary. Before we get to our
00:03two top debates this evening, allow me to take you through the headlines.
00:10Home Minister Amit Shah's assurance in Lok Sabha says minorities are safest in India.
00:15Shah hails new immigration bill, calls bill India's new growth story.
00:22Speaker vs leader of opposition in Lok Sabha escalates day after Rahul claims gag or gag
00:31by the speaker. He reiterates, Chaudh says they will never allow me to speak.
00:52Judge Cash Hall probe intensifies. Sources say Justice Verma will appear before probe
00:58panel constituted by Chief Justice of India. Justice Verma to be confronted with forensic
01:04proof.
01:09Bengaluru court rejects Rania Rao's bail plea. Rania to stay in jail. Court outlines
01:13multiple serious concerns while rejecting bail plea including evidence tampering.
01:22It's a big blow to separatists in Kashmir. Two more Guriyat. Tehreek's group shuns separatism.
01:30Home Minister Shah lauds move, says Valley trusts India.
01:39Russian Foreign Minister confirms Putin's visit to India. Putin's visit to India follows
01:43special invitation from the Prime Minister.
01:52The Waqf Amendment Bill becomes the latest political flashpoint.
01:59Six months before Bihar election, the opposition, the proverbial India Alliance has found a rallying point.
02:22The BJP on the offensive.
02:41One year before elections in Tamil Nadu, the issue now centre stage.
02:48The Tamil Nadu Assembly on Thursday passed a resolution against the proposed amendment
02:54to the Waqf Act.
03:09Chief Minister Stalin called the bill a direct threat to the rights of minorities and the
03:16powers of the Waqf Board.
03:31The AIDMK, which is in alliance talks with the BJP, backed the resolution.
03:38Rather than giving a solution, trying to instigate people and keep the issue burn and living
03:44The vote bank politics is highly condemnable.
03:47The BJP staged a walkout.
03:50They want to divide the people in the name of language, they want to divide the people
03:54in the name of state, they want to divide the people in the name of religion.
03:58The Waqf Amendment Bill, the new glue that binds the opposition. Drop focus on To The Point this evening.
04:14The Waqf Amendment Bill and the protest against that, India or the proverbial India Alliance
04:19has found a rallying cause or the glue that binds the India Alliance at least for now.
04:24Take a look at how the parties stack out in case of support for the Waqf Amendment Bill
04:31and those who don't support it.
04:33Even some of the political outfits that are alongside the BJP in alliance at the centre
04:38like the JDU and the LJP have made their stand rather unclear.
04:43They are rather uncomfortable as Bihar elections are coming in the next 6 months.
04:48Bihar has a percentage of 17% where it comes down 2% of Muslims and in that 17%
04:55the JDU had got a sizeable chunk of vote in election 2020 which was close to about 7%.
05:01The LJP also gets a bit of the Muslim vote.
05:04So there is a bit of discomfort there.
05:06So even the allies of the BJP are unclear and then you can see all the India Alliance parties
05:10banding together on a common cause against the Waqf Amendment Bill.
05:15You only have two political outfits in the country, the BJP and the Shib Sena,
05:19the Eknachin, the faction who are now alongside the BJP where the Waqf Amendment Bill is concerned.
05:27So therefore one can clearly see that the Waqf Amendment Bill is the new glue
05:33that is seemingly binding where the opposition is concerned.
05:37But in midst of it all it is also interesting to note,
05:40why is it that Tamil Nadu, a state that has a population just less,
05:45just a little less than 6.5% where Muslims stand,
05:50why is it that Tamil Nadu has decided to moot the resolution against the Waqf Amendment Bill?
05:58Let's just look at where the Tamil Party stands.
06:01Against the Bill, DMK, Congress, VCK, AIDMK.
06:04Interesting, AIDMK wants to be or rumoured to be getting into an alliance once again with the BJP.
06:11PNK is a part of the alliance with the BJP yet are standing with the DMK
06:17where the resolution against the Bill was passed.
06:20In favour of the Bill in the state of Tamil Nadu, the BJP stands completely isolated all alone.
06:26All right, now this is what have been the for and the against in terms of arguments
06:34where the Waqf Bill is concerned.
06:37Will it be tabled in this session?
06:40That viewers is the big question because word has it there could be a possibility
06:45that the centre looking at its allies being a tad bit uncomfortable
06:50might not bring the Bill in this session or that fact even the monsoon session.
06:54So the questions that we ask at the back of what we have seen,
06:59protests and the resolution in Tamil Nadu,
07:02the Waqf Amendment Bill, the new glue that binds the opposition.
07:06The second question, has Tamil Nadu and the Chief Minister and K. Stalin
07:11opposed the Waqf Bill as a quid pro quo for support on delimitation and NEP?
07:15Why we pose that question is important because like we pointed out,
07:19the Muslim population in Tamil Nadu is just about 6%.
07:22So what does politically Stalin, the Chief Minister of Tamil Nadu gain from it?
07:28Possibly showing support to its allies and then hoping to get the same support back
07:32when it comes down to the true language policy and delimitation.
07:37Other than that, BJP-Bihar-Tamil Nadu allies insecure over Waqf Bill.
07:41We have seen the PMK, an ally of the BJP standing with the DMK
07:45on the resolution against the Waqf Amendment Bill.
07:47The AIDMK which rumoured to be in alliance talks with the BJP
07:53has taken an ideological stand with the DMK.
07:56And in Bihar, both the JDU and the LJP have said absolutely nothing
08:01when it comes down to the Waqf Amendment Bill.
08:04So the final question that we ask then, will the BJP pick the Waqf Amendment Bill
08:10or will it pick ally appeasement which could be a tad bit important
08:14keeping in mind elections in Bihar in the next 6 months.
08:18Let's cut across to our political face-off this evening
08:21and just before we get into that, both panellists will get 2 minutes each
08:24and after that the fader goes down on its own.
08:26I have no part to play in it which is the best part in the debate.
08:30Sanju Verma, National Spokesperson, Bharatiya Janata Party joins me.
08:33So does A. Saravanan, Spokesperson, DMK.
08:35Mr. Saravanan, I'd like to begin with you because the question I want to ask you is
08:39which seems to be foxing a lot of us even in the studio.
08:41Tamil Nadu has a population which is just about 6% where Muslims are concerned.
08:46What does the Chief Minister of Tamil Nadu get by passing a resolution
08:50which is anti-Waqf Amendment Bill?
08:53Politically is this just a quid pro quo?
08:56You are banding with your allies to seek support on delimitation on the two-language policy.
09:01I think you have got it all wrong about DMK.
09:05DMK is not a party which will do anything on the eye with the vote bank.
09:10This is not about vote bank politics.
09:13We have opposed, if you look at the last 10 years, ever since the BJP has come to power,
09:17we have opposed every single bill which is anti-people.
09:20We have supported bills which is aligning with our ideology.
09:24N number of bills, CAA, the Farmers Bill, any bill you take, we have done that.
09:33So this we feel is trying to destroy the secular fabric of our constitution.
09:42It is trying to do away with the reason why this Waqf Amendment Bill in 1954 was passed.
09:48If you look at the way the JPC was conducted, they said we had this JPC
09:54and the opposition asked for the JPC, we have granted this JPC.
09:59So why are you questioning it?
10:02The amendments brought in by the opposition has not been considered at all.
10:06Only all the amendments brought in by the ruling party MPs,
10:09which is aligning with their intention of this Waqf Amendment Bill,
10:12that has been set through.
10:14Then why do we need to go through this facade of JPC at all?
10:18You have done great disservice to this JPC, the concept of JPC.
10:24We did not have this at all.
10:25BJP is a party which is known to divide people on the basis of religion.
10:32By doing this, if you look at CAA, it was criticized because it was discriminating Muslims.
10:38The same here, Triple Talaq Bill.
10:40And now here, the Waqf Act, which is trying to take away the salient features,
10:45which will safeguard the properties of the Muslim community.
10:49That is the reason why our Chief Minister has passed this.
10:52We opposed this in the Parliament.
10:54We said we will not allow this to be diluting the rights of the Muslim people.
11:01That is the reason why we are opposing this, not based on any vote bank policy.
11:06There is no quid pro quo.
11:08Sir, your time is up. Your fader is down.
11:11I want to bring in Sanju Verma into this conversation.
11:14Sanju Verma, the BJP stands rather isolated in all of this.
11:17You only have the Eknath Shinde SRIP Sena standing alongside you,
11:21supporting the Waqf Amendment Bill.
11:23Even your own allies in Bihar like JDU and LJP are not saying a word.
11:28And word has it that they are very uncomfortable
11:31if this bill is tabled in Parliament in the budget session.
11:34Tamil Nadu, same story.
11:36PMK is part of the DMK in passing the resolution.
11:40PMK is your ally.
11:42AIDMK hopes to be your ally, ideologically standing with the DMK.
11:46You know, Preeti, I will respond to every pointed query of yours,
11:51but I think I need to call out the bluff and the ignorance of the DMK spokesperson.
11:57He was sitting here and spewing lies.
11:59First and foremost, the CAA is not anti-Muslim.
12:03All it seeks to do is to give citizenship to persecuted minorities,
12:08including Hindus, Buddhists, Jains and Sikhs from Afghanistan, Bangladesh and Pakistan.
12:12Secondly, and more importantly, let's talk about the Waqf,
12:16because that's the topic of the debate today.
12:19Don't forget, Preeti, a 655-page report, more than 112 hours of deliberations,
12:28more than 38 sessions, more than 44 amendments, more than 282 dissent notes,
12:35more than 287 suggestions.
12:37All these have been incorporated in the final draft of the proposed Waqf Amendment Act.
12:45So it's not that, you know, Jagdambika Pal, who was heading the Waqf Committee
12:51in terms of what the JPC sought to do, has taken any unilateral decision.
12:56The second and most important point is this.
12:59When, you know, people from the opposition say,
13:02the Waqf stands against Article 26 of the Constitution,
13:06which gives minorities the right to manage their religious affairs.
13:10Yes, minorities are given the right to manage their religious affairs under Article 26.
13:15But the same Constitution says that no right is absolute.
13:19It is subject to limitations pertaining to public order, morality and health.
13:24And let me tell you, India is not governed by Sharia.
13:28Even Muslim countries like Algeria, Nigeria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Malaysia, Indonesia,
13:34even these countries have rejected any draconian form of Waqf.
13:39So we are wanting to be holier than thou, more loyal than the Pope.
13:44You know, and I'm sorry, this country will be ruled by law, will be ruled by
13:49samvidan ki laal kitaan, not by toki dhari.
13:53Time is done. Your fader is down.
13:56I want to bring back the DMK spokesperson back into this debate.
14:00Mr. Saravanan, you had Sanju Verma who posed some questions
14:03on the credibility of what you were saying, number one.
14:06Number two, the larger question, do you see this,
14:09the stand that the Tamil Nadu government has taken?
14:12Now, you know, there was, earlier on, one seemed to suggest
14:16that the India alliance was really not an alliance anymore.
14:20Everyone was on their different planet doing their own thing.
14:23Do you see them all coming back together now on the same stratosphere, at least for now,
14:27where the Waqf, you know, amendment bill could be that glue that binds the opposition?
14:33Yeah, see, if you look at the way this Waqf amendment has been passed in,
14:38see, the most contentious provision, in the 1995 Act, the members of the Waqf committee
14:44were all belonging to the same community, the Muslim community.
14:47Now, they want to tinker with that. They say, people belonging to the other communities,
14:52other religions can also become a member of the Waqf.
14:55I think this will dilute, this will be against their interest, which has not been done.
15:00It has been going on successfully for the last, the same setup,
15:04which has been going successfully for the last almost 70 years.
15:07Why would you want to tinker with that?
15:09See, in the state of Tamil Nadu, we have HRNCE, we have similar executive committees,
15:15we have similar things, where only if it is a temple, only Hindus are allowed.
15:19They will only deal with the temple properties. Nobody else can do that.
15:22So, why, with regard to this, and when this was pointed out by our leader, Mr. A. Raja,
15:28he has clearly mentioned how the JPC was a mockery.
15:32Their views were never taken into account.
15:35And if you look at the India Alliance, on issues concerning this nation,
15:41we have been together, we have been fighting this BJP.
15:45They use this as a tactic to conceal their failures, their incompetence, the corruption.
15:54They want to hide all that.
15:57I don't know how long they are going to go ahead with this.
15:59Hindu-Muslim, Hindu-Muslim, Hindu-Muslim.
16:01It is not auguring well for the economy of the country.
16:04Harmonious, harmonious living is the USP for economic growth.
16:09The BJP, in the last 10 years, done away with that, and now we are facing that problem.
16:16Look at all the reports, which speaks about the economy.
16:19The middle class is having the same kind of purchasing power, which we had in 1820.
16:24And the rich is becoming richer, the poor is becoming poorer.
16:28And they have pointed out that every middle class is one illness away from poverty.
16:33How the BJP has done, have they done anything at all for the common man?
16:39Sir, your time is up, time is up.
16:41You know the fact is, whether or not the bill is progressive or discriminatory is a different debate.
16:46We are not getting into it, we have actually had that debate.
16:49And many questions can be raised on either sides of that divide.
16:52But to, you know, veer back into what we were speaking of, this is a political debate.
16:58And Sanju Verma, politically speaking, you are isolated.
17:01You know, whether you say everyone will have to follow the rule of law,
17:05your own allies don't want to do that.
17:07There is fair amount of pressure coming in from the JDU.
17:107% of the Muslim vote the JDU got in 2020.
17:13They actually feel that you are going to be alienating their vote bank in Bihar
17:18by tabling this bill.
17:19And possibly that Sanju Verma could be the reason it's not been tabled so far.
17:23Many hedging bets that it will not be tabled by the BJP.
17:28Can I start, Preeti?
17:30Can I walk by two minutes?
17:32Because I think when I start speaking, your watch starts galloping.
17:34Now you can't tell me, I have not...
17:37Okay, start.
17:41Preeti, first and foremost, I will not allow lies to go unchecked.
17:43And please do not interrupt me.
17:45I did not heckle this man from BNK.
17:47He is sitting here and speaking absolute rubbish on the economy.
17:50Just 24 hours back, the International Monetary Fund, the IMF has said
17:55that India today has a GDP of $4.34 trillion
18:00and it will exceed Japan's $4.4 trillion in the next few months
18:05becoming the world's fourth largest economy.
18:09And the IMF says, not 2027, in 2026 India will overtake Germany
18:13to become the world's third largest economy at more than $4.9 trillion.
18:19So when this DMK spokesperson says,
18:21oh, the economy is in the throes of bankruptcy,
18:25he is absolutely talking balderdash.
18:27But let me tell you something.
18:29What the DMK has failed to do.
18:31Do you know something, Preeti?
18:33Today, along with Punjab, DMK's misgovernance in Tamil Nadu
18:37has pushed Tamil Nadu onto the edge of a precipice.
18:40The debt of Tamil Nadu is more than 8.3 lakh crore,
18:45one of the most indebted states of India.
18:47Point number two, apart from debt, the drug mafia,
18:51the destruction of temples, the lawlessness.
18:54Who can forget the Coimbatore terror blast of October 2022
18:58when NK Stalin was caught napping.
19:00All he does is, you know, have kajals with the governor, R N Ravi.
19:05That is all that this man, NK Stalin, is doing.
19:06And the DMK's spokesperson lecturing the BJP on secularism,
19:11Udayanidhi Stalin, the deputy CM of Tamil Nadu,
19:14and son of NK Stalin said,
19:16Sanatan Dharma is equal to dengue, malaria, raves, covid.
19:21And the entire DMK Jamaat,
19:23their mouths are filled with curd.
19:25Waqf is not even followed by Islamic countries.
19:28There's no place for waqf in India,
19:30which is governed by the constitution, not by the Sharia.
19:33So it's time for waqf to go.
19:35We don't need it.
19:37Well, your time is up, ma'am.
19:39But, you know, I really wish I had control over a watch.
19:41But there's a reason why we put the watch there.
19:43You can time your watch to the two minutes.
19:45Both of you are given exactly the same time.
19:47The watch can't gallop for one and go slow for the other.
19:50I'm going to give you final two minutes each.
19:52And I want to begin with Mr. Ray Sarwana,
19:54your final submission, Mr. Sarwana,
19:56on mooting the resolution in your state assembly.
20:00Yeah, see, the resolution has been moved
20:02against the Waqf Amendment Act,
20:03which will give a sense of security
20:05to all the Muslims across the country.
20:07We are here.
20:09That is the message our chief minister has sent.
20:11We are here.
20:13We are the guardians of the constitution.
20:15See, a constitutional democracy,
20:17title disputes can be decided only through courts.
20:20A title dispute cannot be decided by the executive,
20:22which is one of the salient features of this
20:24Waqf Amendment Bill.
20:26That is one of the important reasons
20:28why we are opposing it.
20:30On the front of deaths,
20:32it's very rich on the part of the BJP
20:34to speak about deaths.
20:36It's 8.3 lakh crores.
20:38Yes, it is.
20:40And we are within the manageable limits.
20:42The 15th Finance Commission says
20:44it should be within 30% of the GSTP of the state.
20:46We are at 26%.
20:48Look at the debt of the BJP government.
20:50200 lakh crores.
20:52185 lakh crores last year,
20:54and it's going to bulge to 200 lakh crores.
20:56And what is the percentage to GDP?
20:5856%.
21:00And they project that this will go to 2027.
21:02What is the percentage of the GDP?
21:04What have they done with the money?
21:06Is the common man happy with it?
21:08Not at all.
21:10Let them speak that we will bring trillion dollars.
21:12We will bring 5 trillion dollars.
21:14Or they say so, we say so.
21:16But what is the common man feeling on the ground?
21:18That is what is important.
21:20And let them not speak about governance
21:22to the state of Tamil Nadu
21:24because the entire BJP states
21:26are copying the schemes
21:28what we have done in the last 3-4 years.
21:30Let me begin.
21:32They say we won Maharashtra
21:34because of this wonderful scheme.
21:36Who implemented this scheme?
21:38Our Chief Minister Mr. M. K. Stalin
21:40under the Dravidian model of governance.
21:422500 rupees to people in Delhi,
21:44women in Delhi.
21:46How did they copy this from?
21:48Because we executed this Magalir Urimai Thogai.
21:501000 rupees successfully rolled out
21:52for the last 2 years.
21:54This is what governance is called.
21:56Take any index,
21:58whether it is a human development index
22:00or an economic index.
22:02If the BJP wants lessons,
22:04if Mr. Amit Shah wants lessons on governance,
22:06if Modi wants lessons on how to govern,
22:08how to be a welfare state,
22:10please come to the chair of the Parliament
22:12to get lessons from Mr. Stalin.
22:14I don't know why it is not going down.
22:16Two more seconds you have got.
22:18Sanju Verma, you have got two exact more seconds
22:20than like Mr. Saravana got.
22:22Final submission,
22:24maybe you would like to answer Sanju Verma
22:26on why you don't have your allies on the board.
22:28You don't have to convince Mr. Saravana.
22:30You have to convince the allies.
22:32Preeti, first and foremost,
22:34I do not wish to dignify the DMK spokesperson
22:39by comparing myself to him.
22:41He does not even know the spelling of economy.
22:43I am sure he does not know the difference
22:45between Aadhaar card and PAN card.
22:47And I am sure he does not know the difference
22:49between GDP and GNP.
22:51But it is my bad that at times I have to debate
22:53with illiterates on the other side.
22:55And this is not my arrogance speaking.
22:57I am just speaking and stating the hard facts.
22:59Let's be very clear.
23:00First and foremost,
23:02highest number of kidnappings,
23:04highest number of abductions,
23:06highest number of people on the roads
23:08begging for alms,
23:10highest number of minors
23:12being subjected to child trafficking.
23:14Do you know which stand,
23:16which state stands number one?
23:18It is the state of Tamil Nadu.
23:20On every human development index,
23:22Tamil Nadu has gone down the tube
23:24thanks to MK Stalin.
23:26Therefore, don't sit here
23:28and give a speech on governments.
23:30The second point is this.
23:32Let's stick to VATS, Preeti.
23:34What does section 3 and 4 of the VATS say?
23:36They say that if the VATS decides
23:38that Sanju Verma's house
23:40or Preeti Chaudhary's property
23:42belongs to VATS,
23:44no questions asked,
23:46suo moto, the VATS will take that over.
23:48What do sections 80, 82, 83, 85
23:50of the VATS say?
23:52They say that the VATS tribunal
23:54will decide any dispute,
23:56not the High Court,
23:58not the Supreme Court of India,
24:00that is a law unto itself.
24:02What are the amendments
24:04that we are proposing?
24:06We are saying that the district commissioner
24:08or the district magistrate
24:10should have a say in disputes.
24:12Government property cannot be encroached by VATS.
24:14We are saying let women also be a part
24:16of the VATS board.
24:18Let there be transparency,
24:20let there be inclusivity.
24:22My simple submission is
24:24why are people rattled
24:26when we want to bring in transparency
24:28and inclusion in the running of VATS?
24:30Article 14, Article 16,
24:32where is your right to equality?
24:34As per right to equality,
24:36why should Muslims begin discussions
24:38status under VATS?
24:40Time is up.
24:42I appreciate both of you for joining us.
24:46There is a conversation
24:48which is going to go down
24:50in days to come.
24:52Still, you know,
24:54the merits of the work for amendment
24:56bill, that wasn't what the debate
24:58is about.
25:00It's about the Tamil Nadu-Bihar-Northern board
25:02and especially how the India line
25:04seemingly coming together
25:06on the VATS amendment bill,
25:08the protests there.
25:10And a clear eye on Bihar elections
25:12in six months
25:14and then, of course,
25:16Tamil Nadu elections,
25:18but the Muslim vote doesn't matter there.
25:20So posturing on that account.
25:22Festivals become new communal flashpoints.
25:24What was Holi and Ramzan
25:26became Holi versus Ramzan.
25:28What is
25:30Ram Naumi and Eid
25:32is being painted
25:34as Ram Naumi versus Eid
25:37from festivals of sharing
25:39joy and celebration
25:41to festivals on high alert.
25:43Ahead of Navratri,
25:45Ram Naumi and Eid,
25:47fresh dictates
25:49demands laced with communal
25:51tension, are cutting
25:53through India's social fabric.
25:55Flash point one
25:56Uttar Pradesh and Delhi
25:57In Uttar Pradesh and Delhi, BJP MLA in UP demands that all meat shops be shut during
26:02Navratri, even though the festival of Eid falls during Navratri.
26:27Flashpoint 2, same sentiment echoes in Delhi.
26:58Flashpoint 3, a bizarre ban comes up in Sambhal, UP.
27:04Ban on Namaz, on roads, or wait for it, even rooftops.
27:27While one can understand the ban on Namaz on roads as it can cause public inconvenience,
27:39but what explains a ban on Namaz on roofs? Incomprehensible.
27:45Another cop goes on to say something borderline threatening.
27:58Would he have got away if he had said, if you want to eat Gujiya, then you will have to eat Sevai.
28:07Festivals politicized, religious harmony compromised. Top focus on India Today.
28:28But two statements have been made which we just played out and I'd like to play them again,
28:33which should be deemed troublesome.
28:35Number one, a ban in Sambhal on offering Namaz on rooftops.
28:38One can completely understand why there should be a ban on offering Namaz on roads.
28:42It's public inconvenience, but on rooftops. Why?
28:46Well, the police says that a lot of people can assemble there.
28:50But that, what if only six or seven people want to offer Namaz on rooftops?
28:54Number two, if a cop says, if you want to eat Sevai, then you will have to eat Gujiya.
29:00What if it was the other way around? Would he have gotten away with that?
29:03Listen in to both these statements.
29:24If there is a possibility of a ban, then permission will not be given.
29:27All of you stay with faith.
29:29Nothing like this will happen to anyone.
29:32But everyone has their own right.
29:35But if you want to offer Sevai on Eid, then you will have to eat Gujiya.
29:41I will eat Gujiya, I will eat Sevai.
29:43So both sides will have to eat.
29:46But here it gets messed up, where one side is ready to eat and the other side is not.
29:51So here the brotherhood ends.
30:21Muslims and economic boycott of Hindus by them.
30:25Then multiple Kumbh, anti-Sanatani or non-Sanatani rather,
30:29people restricted from setting up shops where the Kumbh was concerned.
30:33And when it was the Kaavar Yatra in 2024,
30:39on the route, every shop was mandated to display whether of what faith they came from.
30:45So at the back of all of that, some questions that we put forth before we cut across to our panel.
30:50The questions that we ask, have festivals now become the new communal flashpoint?
30:55Politicization of festivals threatening interfaith solidarity of what India has been known and celebrated for.
31:05The next question that we pose, meet or Namaz ban, a form of cultural imposition.
31:11Let's take all these questions to our panelists this evening.
31:14Sanju Verma, National Spokesperson, Bharatiya Janata Party.
31:17Ghanshyam Tiwari, Spokesperson, Samajwadi Party.
31:20Rajat Sethi, Political Commentator.
31:22Rashid Kidwai, Political Analyst.
31:24Sanju Verma, once again, I would, you know, telling all our panelists, two, two minutes each.
31:29And we'll come back and offer them two minutes more to speak.
31:32Sanju Verma, the question, I'll ask you that, you know, which we posed.
31:36If the same cop had said, agar gujiya khaani hai toh sevai khaani hogi.
31:41Would it have, you know, led to no reaction at all?
31:45Because many would suggest this is borderline threatening.
31:49You know, Preeti, let me be very clear.
31:51You know, this entire debate about gujiya versus sevaiya, and, you know,
31:55pork versus beef, you know, halal versus hijab.
31:59You know, the limited point is simply this.
32:02What I fail to understand is why is a police officer or an IPS officer
32:07talking about gujiya and sevaiya, the news,
32:10but we have spent lesser time on the fact that the Deputy Commissioner of Nagpur
32:15was attacked with an axe by radical Islamist goons.
32:19Puri ki puri media ke muhne tab dahi jam gaya.
32:22We have spent less time debating on the fact that the Circle Officer of Sambal,
32:28Anuj Chaudhary, was attacked with bottles of cocktails and swords and knives
32:35by a radical Islamist bunch led by Samajwadi Party MLA,
32:39Shoaib Iqbal and his son Iqbal Mehmood.
32:43And we have spent less time debating about the fact that 23-year-old Ankit Saxena
32:48was stabbed multiple times at the peak of Shaheen Bagh riots
32:52by radical Islamist goons.
32:54More time was spent on the fact that the then, a senior BJP minister said
32:59that, you know, ki gaddaro ko toh goli se marna chahiye.
33:04Gaddaro ki aarti toh nahi utari jaayegi.
33:06My limited point is, why is that the media is hell-bent on creating a convoluted narrative?
33:12I live in Maharashtra and I tell you that with brazen impunity,
33:17there are radical Islamist goons who flout the Bombay High Court verdict
33:23which says that from 10pm in the night till 6am in the morning,
33:26you cannot have azaan blaring from loudspeakers.
33:29Abhi court ka jo nirnay hai, aapko sunna nahi hai because, what do you say?
33:33You simply say, I am only, you know, doing what the constitution gives me
33:39by way of a right under Article 26.
33:41Jab hum kehte hai, under Article 14, under Article 15, there is right to equality
33:46and hence, you know, beyond a point, you have to toe the line
33:50when it comes to the legal machinery.
33:53They say nahi bhai, we are a law unto ourselves.
33:55What does the media say?
33:56But you know, Sanju Verma, see, the Muslim community,
34:00they decided to postpone their Ramadan celebrations by a day
34:03because the Durga Puja visarja was on the same day.
34:06Ma'am, time is up. I just want to remind you, Sanju Verma,
34:08you were on my show where we did that entire show on what happened in Nagpur,
34:12especially where the women cops were harassed.
34:14So to say that we did not carry that story, we did.
34:17I did not name you P.E.
34:18I am just saying, ma'am, I am not saying anything.
34:20I did not name you.
34:21Ma'am, all I am saying, allow me to complete.
34:23Why do you get so defensive?
34:25I am not at all. Do you see me defensive at all?
34:27I am just saying we carried that story and we will carry this story as well.
34:30You should not be. You should not be.
34:31I am not. I want to bring in Ghanshyam Tiwari.
34:34And once again, faders will be down after two minutes of submissions made by the panelists.
34:40Ghanshyam Tiwari, today you are being accused of flaring communal passions
34:44by bringing up what many suggest is policing before a possible untoward incident
34:51because many have happened before.
34:54Good evening, Preeti, to you, my fellow co-panelists and the viewers.
34:57If I could, in the state the country is heading towards,
35:00I would rather make it a two minutes of silence
35:03because every minute that BJP gets its act together,
35:08it shows new models of hatred in the country.
35:11The world is talking about artificial intelligence, an era of artificial intelligence.
35:15BJP is manufacturing an era of artificial intolerance.
35:20They will ensure that no matter what you are doing at your home,
35:24their nefarious design, their conspiratorial model will get you.
35:28It will stop you from celebrating Holi.
35:30It will stop you from wishing Holi to your neighbor irrespective of their religion.
35:35It will stop you from celebrating Ram Navami.
35:38It will stop you in the way that you are going to eat.
35:40It will stop you in the way who you are going to marry.
35:42It will stop you in the way your films are going to be produced.
35:45And they will carry a baggage of manufactured and fact-based history
35:51that can date anywhere from the age of Ramayana to the age of Aurangzeb.
35:56Because we are right now governed by a set of people
36:00who do not care about what the nation needs.
36:03There is not one BJP member of parliament.
36:05If you ask me, is it easier for Mr. Adityanath to grow in height by an inch
36:11or to solve the problem of unemployment,
36:13I will say it is easier for him to grow in height by an inch.
36:15Because these people are hell-bent that the youth in India
36:19should not think about unemployment or employment.
36:21The youth in India should not think about exam paper leaks.
36:24The youth in India should not think about how the artificial intelligence
36:28will take away jobs from the service sector
36:30that this government has no responsibility towards.
36:33The youth in India should think about this fake narrative
36:36that they have built around mudra loans,
36:38that they have distributed probably 50 crore mudra loans,
36:41which means one mudra loan or two mudra loans to every family in the country.
36:45These kinds of fake narratives are there
36:47because BJP can prop up its corrupt crony capitalists
36:50that continue to take monopolistic roles in Indian economy
36:54and destroy small and medium businesses.
36:56This is just another example of the same agenda.
36:58Alright, sir. Well done. You finished dot on two minutes.
37:01I want to bring Rajat Sethi into this conversation.
37:03Rajat Sethi, one thing is clear that festivals,
37:06be it what, Eid, Ram Navami, Holi, Ramadan,
37:10have all, somewhere down the line, become communal flashpoints.
37:13But now to move a step ahead and, you know,
37:16I'm talking about the current context,
37:18to moot banning of meat in a state during the frame of Navratri
37:23when Eid falls during the same period,
37:26banning namaz being offered on roads,
37:29one can understand it, you know,
37:31somewhere down the line comes in and hinders public convenience.
37:34But to ban namaz on rooftops, is this not cultural imposition?
37:39Well, Preeti ji, good evening.
37:44You know, the sense that I'm getting is that
37:47media seems to be ahead of the narrative curve here.
37:51They want to foresee that something untoward
37:54or something deeply communal is going to happen in our country.
37:56We have seen Holi, which was largely barring one or two events here and there.
38:01It has been a peaceful festival through and through.
38:03Also, I need to tell you that meat eaters in our country are majority.
38:08They should also yield a space for the minorities,
38:11which are vegetarian in our country.
38:13So this give and take in a deeply diverse country like ours,
38:16should always happen.
38:18Somebody has to yield a space
38:21and be tolerant or appreciative of the other's perspective.
38:24And both the communities, Hindus, Muslims,
38:27have to ensure that the common ground of peace and prosperity
38:31always remain and takes the primacy,
38:33no matter what event, what festival comes our way.
38:36I agree with you.
38:38On road, there should be absolutely no namaz.
38:41That is not even allowed anywhere in the world.
38:43That is basic civic sense that all of us should have.
38:46We cannot erect a temple in the middle of a highway.
38:49You cannot start praying on the middle of the highway.
38:52It is as simple as possible.
38:54Now, you need to try and add some communal colors to it.
38:58See, the government has taken a position onto it.
39:01Then media is free to do that.
39:03I believe that media sort of puts the fodder in front
39:06and allows the usual suspect from both the communities
39:09to come in and hijack the narrative.
39:11That is the real problem.
39:13You shouldn't be having this discussion.
39:15We have mature people on both the sides.
39:17Give a chance to them.
39:19They will figure out how to coexist.
39:21We've been coexisting for far too long now.
39:23The media wasn't even there.
39:25So I believe, take a step back.
39:27Everything will be peaceful.
39:29The diktat has been given.
39:31There is no untoward incident.
39:33Therefore, it has come up with some solution.
39:35Both the communities respect it.
39:37I don't understand where the flare-up you are trying to guess
39:40will happen on the 1st or the 31st of March.
39:42I don't see that.
39:44Rajasethi, I don't think anybody is trying to second-guess
39:47on what's going to happen on the 31st of March.
39:49Nobody is trying to preempt an untoward incident.
39:52But I think it is the media's responsibility, surely,
39:55to highlight if something wrong is taking place.
39:58And when I speak of cultural imposition
40:01to suggest banning of meat at a time where there is Eid,
40:06why can't Ram Navami be celebrated without banning of meat?
40:09If you don't want to partake in meat, you don't have to.
40:12We've done that, what you quoted, for centuries.
40:14And we're doing that right now.
40:16And we should continue to do so.
40:18To banning a particular community from offering namaz
40:21on rooftops is bizarre.
40:23And I would reckon maybe a lot of people are not used to
40:26the media highlighting it now.
40:28But the media should highlight that it's bizarre.
40:30But I want to bring in, and I'll circle back to you
40:32for your two minutes, I'm sure you want to come back.
40:34I want to circle in and get Rashid Khidwai into this conversation.
40:37Rashid Khidwai, how much is it politics, how much is it cultural?
40:41I think, Preeti, to my mind, it's a silly season.
40:45It's a silly season because political parties, individuals,
40:49people who are supposedly part of administration,
40:53they are talking about things that is against the very grain
40:56of our constitution.
40:58There is nothing Islamic about eating non-vegetarian food.
41:02Non-vegetarian food is not part of Islam.
41:07It is a dietary like or a dislike.
41:10Now, it's been from time immemorial, the communities in India
41:14have co-existed and festivals have come.
41:17We have this kind of lunar calendar where every, I think,
41:2030 years or so, it would be a month long, three Ramzans
41:24and three Navratris will come together.
41:27All these things, Ram Navmis will come together.
41:29There has never been any kind of clash.
41:31This has been because the rule of law is not being imposed
41:34because there is a tussle going on among the political parties
41:38and within a political party, a kind of thing to become
41:41a bigger champion of a particular faith.
41:44And that is causing such an overt politicization of all these
41:48festivals and eating habits.
41:51You look at the entire Bengal, you look at entire Kashmir,
41:54you will see a large number of people having a particular dietary preference.
41:58It has not got to do with any caste or community.
42:01In North India, prices of meat fall during Navratras.
42:05That means that it is the majority community which is consuming
42:08more meat than, so to say, the minority community.
42:11And the price difference indicates that.
42:14I think communities are quite sure-footed,
42:17but it is the so-called leaders who are aggravating
42:20and many of them are seeking limelight.
42:22To blame the media is like shooting a messenger.
42:25It is not that the media told the circle officer of Sambhal
42:29to make some atrocious remarks or many other pronouncements
42:32that are being made by MLAs of a particular party
42:35and the kind of counter-argument that is being made.
42:37One last thing about that mosque and this.
42:40This is of course in a way improper and I would say illegal
42:44to be praying on streets.
42:46But Preeti, there is a problem because the Muslim population
42:49is not getting places to build, construct mosques
42:53in cities and in areas.
42:57And therefore they need government permission.
42:59So if the permission is not given, if there is no mosque
43:02for let's say 30 years in a particular place
43:04and population has gone up, where are those going to go?
43:07All right, sir, your two minutes are over.
43:08The next line, we're going to give one minute each
43:11and if we have time, we're going to offer one more minute
43:13to all our panelists.
43:14Sanju Verma, I'll begin with you.
43:15You made a point, Sanju Verma, and one of my producers
43:19have just asked that question and they want to know, Sanju Verma.
43:22You say that a particular cop made that statement
43:26because he was attacked by Molotov cocktails
43:29by a radical Islamist group.
43:31Let's say that was correct.
43:32And yes, he was attacked.
43:33And yes, let's say he was attacked by a radical Islamist group.
43:36Does that still give him the authority to make
43:39what many would say is a communally-laid statement like that
43:42and action not be taken?
43:45You know, Preeti, with no offense to your producers,
43:47I will say what I wish to say.
43:49And I think I'm very responsible.
43:51First and foremost, I agree with Rajat.
43:53You know, reading namaz on the streets is wrong.
43:56Even if somebody says build a temple in the middle of a highway,
43:59I will condemn it.
44:00You know, I'm going to make no bones about it.
44:02Meri secularism convenient secularism nahi hai.
44:05But let me just say this.
44:07First and foremost, my rebuttal to Rashid Kidwai,
44:10who's very erudite.
44:11He says, you know, masks, build karne mein
44:13bahut permission lag jati hai.
44:14Isliye, you know, log sadak ke beech mein namaz prate hai.
44:17Let me say this, Preeti.
44:19Today, there are more than 8.7 lakh properties
44:24worth more than 2.0 lakh crore
44:27worth more than 9.4 lakh acres
44:30which come under the ambit of VAT.
44:33I want to ask the VAT board,
44:35you have 8.7 lakh properties under your ambit.
44:38Why don't you build mosques?
44:40Why don't you build mosques?
44:41What is the need for people like you
44:43to read namaz on the streets?
44:45And my last point to Ghanshyam Tiwari,
44:47who says unemployment, unemployment, Ghanshyam.
44:50We are today a 4.3 trillion dollar economy.
44:53Have some sensitivity and congratulate the BJP.
44:57Alright, time up.
44:58Ghanshyam Tiwari, I give you one minute.
45:00Ghanshyam Tiwari, the fact is,
45:01it's a tad bit rich coming in from the Samajwadi party.
45:04History stands testimony of a line of appeasement policies
45:09that your political outfit followed.
45:11And today, you're seemingly standing on the divide of secularism.
45:14Many would think that's a tad bit hilarious.
45:20Sir, you're on mute.
45:21You're on mute.
45:24Preeti, when we abstract things,
45:26then we lose the specifics of it sometimes.
45:28What is the specific of it?
45:30The specific of it is,
45:31we have a batenge katenge party ruling the country.
45:34The RSS says batenge katenge.
45:36Chief Minister of Uttar Pradesh says batenge katenge.
45:38They stand for batenge katenge.
45:40This is their model.
45:41Yogi Adityanath went into elections saying it's an 80-20 election.
45:44His track record is not of winning gold medals at IIT like Rajat.
45:48His track record is of Section 153A,
45:51various other sections that are criminal sections
45:54as per his own epitome that has taken him 10 years to wipe out.
45:57So, this is the model of BJP.
45:59Every new example feeds into that particular model.
46:03And for BJP to congratulate this trillion economy, that trillion economy,
46:06I think every one of us should get up and congratulate Adani ji
46:09that mutually they are richer parties.
46:12BJP has 13,000 crores in 10 years,
46:15amassed 13,000 crores through chandas who gave this money.
46:18So, let us not go there.
46:19The moot point is,
46:21today, anyone in India who wants to get the benefit from BJP,
46:25they will participate in this festival of hatred
46:28that BJP has created every day of their lives.
46:59Let me just come in for 10-20 seconds.
47:04And I thank Rajat for being so generous,
47:06you know, giving me his time, a little bit of it I'll be.
47:08I have a question for Rajat but you make your point
47:11because you immediately raised your hand and said I'm taking it.
47:13Go ahead, ma'am.
47:15Okay, now your audience needs to listen to this
47:17and even people like Dhanshan Tiwari who speak lies with brazen impunity.
47:21Licious, Bharat pe, MyGlam, Ato, Farmizy, Zeta, Grove, Blacknut,
47:26Mama, Cash24, Credit, Physicswala, Global Beef,
47:30these are all start-ups that have opened in the last 10 years.
47:34Allow me to bring Rajat back into this conversation.
47:37They are unicorns.
47:38He was gracious to give you your 30 seconds.
47:40Allow him to bring.
47:41Rajat Sethi, very quickly, if you can encapsulate the question
47:43that I wanted to ask you is,
47:45it's not about a Nantobot incident.
47:46Aren't we all glad nothing happened on Holi?
47:48But should we not point out when meat,
47:51offering namaz on chhats or rooftops
47:54is being used as a dog whistle to attack a community?
47:58No, no, the same you can say about the other community also
48:00when the similar diktat was given on the Holi day
48:02that do not put colors when the other community people do not want to.
48:06I think, see, you want to see through colored lenses.
48:09That is the whole problem.
48:11Don't see it from that perspective.
48:12See that there are certain precautionary measures
48:15which are taken so that nobody loses life.
48:17More than narrative, lives are important.
48:19And I believe lives should stay as a paramount objective
48:23for all the law and order responsible agencies of all the states.
48:28If you go on the rooftop, what if some stone pelting happens,
48:31then what will happen?
48:32Should we debate that right now or not?
48:34See, you can go on and on and I believe...
48:37All right, okay.
48:38But I don't think...
48:39Rajat Sethi, I don't think we are viewing anything
48:41as a section of the media.
48:43I personally think we are viewing nothing
48:45from a particular tint of glasses.
48:48Ma'am, please allow me to bring in another guest.
48:52Let's not...
48:53Can I just...
48:54Can I just get...
48:55You know, there's something wrong with our PCR today.
48:57There were faders which were supposed to go down.
48:59One second.
49:00I want to bring in Rashid Kidwai.
49:03We are running out of time.
49:05Rashid Kidwai, closing comments.
49:06One minute begins now.
49:08Preeti, it's very simple.
49:10The rule of law must prevail.
49:12We are a constitutional democracy.
49:13Country cannot be governed by the whims and fancies
49:16of an individual or a political party.
49:18Therefore, it's a very simple thing.
49:20People who are particularly given task of law enforcement
49:23or part of administration,
49:25they must not make a distinction
49:27between a particular community or other.
49:30And the entire attempt to otherize a particular community,
49:33I think that's very painful
49:35and that is something that's very politically volatile also.
49:38We must look at all citizens as equal at par
49:41and the rule of law must be enforced
49:44irrespective of what a person's faith is
49:46or what they are practicing.
49:48Ten seconds, Ghanshyam Tiwari,
49:49because 35 seconds were given to Sanju Verma.
49:52Ten seconds and I close the show.
49:53Well, every one of your viewers will know of a tree.
49:57Hinduism is like a banyan tree.
49:58Every one of us would know of a tree,
50:00a place next to a roadside where people pray.
50:04When you start creating these kind of doubts in people's mind
50:07that rooftop is not allowed, tree is not allowed,
50:09you are just creating endless battlegrounds
50:12so that your propaganda can win.
50:13All right, okay.
50:14I'm going to close the show.
50:15Just want to close it on that account
50:17that we are not trying to view something
50:18or trying to create something which is not there
50:21on a certain tint of glasses
50:23like some panelists alleged.
50:25We are just reporting what it is.
50:26And if there was a cop who's going to suggest
50:29that if you want to eat vermicelli,
50:31then you should also eat gujiya.
50:33One should call it a tad bit threatening
50:35or that meat should be banned during Navratra
50:38in Uttar Pradesh and in Delhi,
50:40forgetting that there is Eid also
50:42which falls during those days.