Culture Burnley and Burnley Film Studio catch up with writer and musician Boff Whalley, formerly of Chumbawamba, to find out more about his cultural influences growing up in Burnley and aspirations for the town as we head towards Burnley 2027 Year of Culture.
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00:00My name's Buff Worley and I'm here in St Matthew's Church.
00:06Apparently I came in once when I was a little kid for a wedding.
00:09Apart from that I've never been here and it's the setting for tonight's showing of a play called Sanctuary, which I wrote the music for.
00:17I was asked by Alex to do a podcast and we were just chatting about it and he was asking what you're up to
00:23and I said next year or later this year we've got this, I've written the music for a play which is set in a church
00:30and I said oh maybe we should bring it to your church and he said yeah why not, why don't you.
00:35But this is a perfect setting for it. I've no idea, it's been a long long time since I've been to church
00:41so I don't know what the atmosphere's normally like but I do think that with this kind of space and the grandness of it
00:47and the acoustics, it's not going to be like in one of those modern Leeds playhouse type theatre boxes.
00:54So I think that's great. Anywhere where you can put theatre on or any kind of art or culture,
00:59where it's happening in spaces that people recognise, I think is great.
01:05Whether it's in shops or shopping centres or pubs or whatever, I love all that.
01:12I think what culture means to me is that point in my life when I discovered that there was more to life than school and pop music and football
01:24and because of Punk Rock stumbling into Mid Pennine Arts, because they kind of opened their doors to us, to the punks
01:34and said you can use our photocopier, you can use our meeting space, you can come and rehearse bands here
01:40and that was a revelation because as far as we were concerned they were just like old hippies
01:46and suddenly I thought, ah, there's a world here that I didn't know anything about.
01:51And then somebody that we were working with at Mid Pennine Arts said, do you all want to earn like five quid a day
01:59to help put up the stage for the Royal Shakespeare Company, they were setting up in something like Blackburn.
02:05So we all went over to Blackburn and helped them erect the stage and then got to watch the play.
02:10And I remember going to see theatre, you know, for the first time really, other than like school plays
02:16and thinking, wow, this is really interesting, whether I like Shakespeare or not, it was just the spectacle of it
02:24and the audience involvement and I just thought, this is great, it's got elements of the stuff that I like already.
02:30That changed my views on things like, you know, I was casually racist and homophobic and all those sort of things
02:38and culture's a really good way of learning that they're stupid ideas and that they're cool people.
02:45You know, like, following on from, you know, listening to the lyrics of someone like The Clash
02:52and then tracing that into Woody Guthrie and then learning about the whole history of folk music
03:01and what it's for and who's it for and who writes it and understanding that it's all tied in with the politics of people
03:08having a voice and unions and union organisation and it all just links up beautifully.
03:16And it kind of gave me something in my life where I just, you're constantly chasing things
03:22because there's so many good cultural things going on.
03:25I went to London last week and saw an exhibition by someone called Peter Kennard
03:31who's a kind of political collage artist and it was at the Whitechapel Gallery
03:36and I remember seeing stuff that he'd done in probably about 1979, 80
03:43and it felt like then I didn't really know what it was.
03:47I just thought it was just these political slogans and everything
03:52and I just really enjoyed going back to it and realising how far I've come
03:57in terms of trying to understand what it is and how it affects people
04:01and how international it is and how important it is for getting messages across and all that sort of thing.
04:08Before we even get there, what's your favourite Clash song?
04:12Oh, interesting. White Man in Hammersmith Palace.
04:19Because again, it's complex, it's a complex song.
04:22It's like when I first heard it I thought, it's not like white right, I'm alright.
04:26It's like, oh this is, what's this about?
04:29It tells a story and it's about that, what am I doing here, do I fit in in other people's culture
04:35and I just thought, oh this is really interesting.
04:38When I left school, I left school a year early and went to do a foundation course in art at Burnley,
04:45I think it used to be called Burnley Technical College on Elmhurrad Road
04:50and what you do on a foundation course, you do about a month or two months on each thing
04:57so you do fashion design, sculpture, life drawing, you try everything,
05:02you've got to try everything, typesetting.
05:07Possibly the only year of education that I ever enjoyed, really enjoyed it.
05:13But after about six months of being there, the teacher, the main bloke there,
05:19he said, I'm going to bring someone in who was at this college two years ago
05:24and now he's in a band but he's from Burnley and he's going to come and do a talk
05:29and I thought, oh that's interesting.
05:31And he was the bass player for a band called The Yachts who I knew and I had one of their singles
05:37so I was really excited and he came in and he was brilliant because he said,
05:40well I finished my foundation course here at Burnley Tech College and I was applied for art school
05:47and I was just about to go to art school when we'd signed to a record company
05:52and the record company said, do you want to do a tour of America for like three months?
05:56And I said, that was it, that was the end of my education, off I went.
05:59And I just thought, that's the way to get on, you know, that's the education.
06:04If you can wangle it so you end up going off to America, touring around and,
06:09you know, literally when you're 17, 18, what a life.
06:14And I kind of thought, that's what I want to do.
06:17So consequently I did go to art college and it only lasted three months and then dropped out.
06:22But by then, you know, I was wanting to start bands with people and doing fanzines and all that sort of thing.
06:27So we decided that we would try and learn by going to Paris, busking.
06:31My mum had an old Spanish acoustic guitar and she won't listen to this so I can safely say,
06:43it was absolutely a piece of crap.
06:45It probably cost her about £1.50.
06:48But we went to Paris, me and two mates, and we managed three months on the streets of Paris,
06:55just playing songs by The Clash and The Undertones and Buscocks,
06:59all the kind of poppier ones that had melodies.
07:02And I just learnt to play, you know, because it's like three or four chords.
07:05And I was like, ooh, ooh, E minor.
07:08And I was just learning as we went along.
07:10And then we came back and we had a gig because of the Early Musicians Collective
07:16and I remember the first time going on stage with an electric guitar that was borrowed
07:22and someone gave it to me and plugged it in and I had the lead.
07:25And I was like, what do I do with this?
07:28And they were going, you just plug it into the amp.
07:30And I was thinking, well, that's what those boxes are.
07:33Right, OK.
07:34And I was like, it seemed to have loads of holes.
07:36And I was like, which?
07:37They said, come here.
07:38Like that.
07:39And I thought, yeah, here we go.
07:43All we ever did was write songs that we wanted for the audience in the room.
07:49So it was complete shock having, you know, being able to write songs
07:53which suddenly got on the radio and things like that.
07:56We had a meeting, because we all still talk to each other and get on with each other.
08:00We had a Zoom meeting, yesterday in fact, last night, all the chumbers lot.
08:05And it was funny, I was like, hey, look what I've got.
08:08And I showed them on screen, I've got this cassette of Tub Thumping
08:12that we didn't have a chorus for it.
08:15We had all the other bits.
08:16And we thought, oh, this is an interesting song.
08:18It needs a chorus.
08:20And so I've got this version of it where it's the song,
08:23but without the I get knocked down bit.
08:26Which obviously, looking back now, that's the song.
08:30That's the bit.
08:31But originally, we just thought, oh, it's a song that needs a chorus.
08:34I remember me and Harry driving to the studio several days running,
08:38going, come on, let's think of something.
08:41And, you know, yeah, that sounds good.
08:44Yeah, get knocked down.
08:46Yeah, that's good.
08:47We'd better look it up and make sure nobody else has used it.
08:50Like, oh, nobody else has used it.
08:52Great.
08:53Away we go.
08:54Because I remember when the phrase came to me, and I did think,
08:57this is really good, because it's just universal.
09:00And it's about hope and joy and being uplifted.
09:03And the rest of the song was kind of about,
09:06it was my next-door neighbour in Leeds where we used to live,
09:09and he was Irish, and he'd stagger on from the pub and fall over on the floor,
09:13and he couldn't get his key in the door.
09:15And me and my partner Casey, we would listen to him.
09:18We were like, he's home, he's home, it's 1 o'clock,
09:20and he's trying to get the key in the door, can't do it, can't do it.
09:23And he'd start shouting for his wife, and she'd come down and shout at him.
09:27And so that's what the song was about.
09:29And so then to add the chorus on it was like,
09:31ah, now it's become something else.
09:33Now it's a song that can belong to everybody.
09:36And I think it does.
09:37A lot of people, especially in other parts of the world,
09:40nobody knows who it's by.
09:42They don't remember the band.
09:45But they know the song, and I like that.
09:47It's like a folk song.
09:49Just a song, and we get so many letters from people who've, you know,
09:55been in battles with cancer, or they've used it at the wedding.
09:59And I think that's great.
10:01One place no one's ever said they've used it is at a funeral.
10:05We're waiting because the first one of us that pops his clogs,
10:09that's obviously going to be the joke.
10:12It's definitely Northern, yeah.
10:14Because when we got together, we all met in Leeds,
10:16but we were from Billingham up in the North East, Burnley and Barnsley.
10:21Kind of equal parts, almost.
10:25And we were aware that a lot of the bands that we would do tours with
10:30or that we were working with or that we were on record labels with
10:33were all from the South.
10:35So we absolutely held, really held rigidly onto that Northern-ness.
10:41Because for me, the kind of real spirit of punk,
10:46even though much as I love the Pistols and the Clash and all that sort of stuff,
10:50the real spirit of it came from seeing bands in Manchester,
10:54came from Bullscox and John Cooper Clark
10:57and all those kind of very Northern...
11:01Even Joy Division, it's all about rain.
11:04And I loved all that, thought it was great.
11:07And the Liverpool bands, really Northern.
11:09They couldn't have come out of Hackney.
11:12So I've got a book out next year,
11:14and the premise of the book is that I spent some time
11:18going round and visiting all the people that...
11:21A kind of list of people who I think who changed my life.
11:26Who, almost by accident or by design.
11:30And so the first people that I went to visit
11:34were this bunch of artists called Welfare State International.
11:38And they were based in Burnley for a while in the mid-1970s.
11:42And I was about probably 14 or something.
11:45And they had a big bonfire on the wreck.
11:48I think it was the big wreck near Turf Moor.
11:51And we went down to this fire, and it was huge.
11:54And there were thousands and thousands of people there.
11:57And then they came in, like a big procession,
12:00and they were a band, they were playing jazz music
12:03and clarinets and hitting drums, all looking really weird.
12:06And they were carrying these big effigies and papier-mâché things.
12:11And one of them was the House of Parliament.
12:13And they were carrying it in, this big House of Parliament.
12:16And then they'd throw it on the fire, and they'd light the fire.
12:19It was incredible, absolutely amazing.
12:22I didn't know what it was. I didn't know it was art.
12:25I wouldn't know what to call it.
12:27I just thought, wow, that was amazing.
12:29And then years and years later, probably five years ago,
12:32my wife Casey, she said,
12:34I've got this book by Welfare State International,
12:38and I know you saw them ages ago,
12:41and you were always raving about this thing they did.
12:44And I said, all right, let's have a look at the book.
12:46And I was looking through this book, oh, they're amazing.
12:48All these things they did all over the country.
12:50And it said, oh, for a while, we were in Burnley,
12:53and we were stationed there for 18 months,
12:55and we feel like we didn't get anywhere in Burnley,
12:57and no one appreciated what we were doing.
13:00So it didn't really work for us there, so we moved.
13:03And I was gutted. I just thought, no!
13:06You had an amazing effect on people, but you wouldn't have known it.
13:10And it wasn't just me, it was just,
13:12you do these things to thousands of people,
13:14and you don't know what effect you're having.
13:16And that, to me, was like, later, it was like,
13:18that's what culture can do.
13:20Whether it's a film or something you see on telly,
13:22and the next day, everybody's talking about it.
13:24And the person who wrote it or saw it
13:26doesn't know how much it affects people.
13:29So I went up to, they live near Barrow now,
13:31me and Casey went up to visit them,
13:33just because I wanted to sit down and say,
13:37you're wrong.
13:38Your time in Burnley was really important
13:41to a lot of people, probably.
13:43And it's brilliant coming to a time like Burnley
13:46with being absolute freaks,
13:48and people getting something to look at
13:50that's a great spectacle and interesting.
13:53So I kind of sat with them and just said thank you to them, basically.
13:57And they were a bit kind of, hmm.
14:00They probably thought I was a bit weird.
14:03But I just thought, it's important.
14:07Culture is important for that.
14:09It affects you, it can change your life
14:11without the people who are making it
14:13knowing that they're doing it.
14:15Given the choice of doing something in Burnley,
14:20it would be, what can you do that hasn't been done before,
14:24that's a collaboration between different kinds of artists,
14:27musicians, whatever, and make something big out of it.
14:31And I think that also means that what you're doing is
14:34you're trying to say to people, we're all in this together,
14:37we all come from different places,
14:39let's enjoy it together,
14:41rather than stay in our separate little boxes.
14:44Let's do it.
14:45I did some work down in Cardiff with the Welsh National Opera,
14:49and the whole point was that we got some musicians
14:52from the local asylum seekers and refugee hostels,
14:55who were brilliant musicians,
14:58playing instruments I'd never heard of,
15:00literally, like, here's a two-string instrument
15:03that's made out of some weird...
15:05But they're just doing this fantastic stuff,
15:07you know, and they're Iranian-Persian instruments,
15:10different tunings, different tones,
15:13and then you put them in a room and you say,
15:15OK, here's a cello, a flute,
15:18and two violins from Welsh National Opera,
15:21we're going to create something together.
15:23And you know that both sides are thinking,
15:26what are we going to do?
15:27Because the classical musicians are going,
15:29well, we want a score,
15:30we can't do anything without a score.
15:32And the, you know, musicians from the refugee places
15:36are thinking, let's just jam.
15:38You know, let's...
15:39And so it's great, that challenge,
15:41and then two or three months down the line
15:43you've got a piece of music
15:45where they're both playing off each other,
15:48and it's just wonderful.
15:49You should be in this.
15:50Are you all right?
15:51How are you doing?
15:52Yeah, I'm good.
15:53Good to see you.
15:54Say hello to the camera.
15:56Hello, camera.
15:57You all right?
15:58Lovely.
15:59You're on film now,
16:00so while we're here,
16:02would you like to say thank you,
16:03and what do you think of what's going on today?
16:05Well, now, just say it?
16:07Yeah.
16:08It's fabulous.
16:09I'm very excited,
16:10I'm very grateful for both,
16:11for bringing it to St Matthews
16:13and to this part of Burnley,
16:15to explain the current political climate
16:17and what's happened in recent weeks.
16:19I think it's a timely reminder to people in this area
16:23about things that really matter,
16:25and not knowing the full story.
16:27Well, you were very quick to go,
16:29ooh, that sounds interesting,
16:30yeah, I'll see if we can do it.
16:32Yeah.
16:33Yeah, I was a bit shocked about it.
16:34I thought you might be a bit more like,
16:36ooh, ooh, I don't know.
16:37No, not at all.
16:38So that's great, yeah.
16:39Well, it's not just the political issues.
16:42I'm a big fan of the arts as well,
16:45and I see what these kind of things can do
16:48for young people,
16:50to stimulate their mind, ambition,
16:52all those kind of things.
16:53Yeah.
16:55Yeah.
16:56Have a go and see.
16:57Here we are.
16:58What's your name, sorry?
16:59Rosie.
17:00Rosie.
17:01This is Rosie from Capper College.
17:03So there's a big bunch of people
17:05from the college in Wakefield,
17:07and they're singing and acting,
17:10but also doing technical lights and sound
17:12and all that sort of stuff,
17:14which is brilliant, it's great.
17:16If you can, again,
17:17bringing people into this thing,
17:19rather than trying to make it an elitist thing.
17:23I think it's more Sarah, the writer,
17:26to talk about it,
17:27but the initial idea was me and Sarah,
17:30because we'd been working with, you know,
17:32asylum seekers and refugees,
17:34and realising that we were working
17:36with these people for like,
17:37literally for two, three years,
17:39and realising they've all got,
17:42it's not that they've got stories,
17:44they've got lives, proper lived lives,
17:46other than, how did they get here?
17:49Oh, they came in a boat,
17:50or they came on the underside of a lorry,
17:52illegally, and it's,
17:55their stories are just like our stories,
17:58you know, they're teachers and doctors
18:00and bus conductors,
18:02and so that's why we thought,
18:04we need to tell a story about that sort of thing.
18:07It means that church isn't like,
18:09oh, it's a spiritual little place
18:10that does this certain thing,
18:11and it's all about prayer,
18:12and it's about God,
18:13it's about community,
18:14and it's about changing people's minds
18:16about all the people living around them
18:18and all that sort of thing.
18:20We have a thing at the minute about church,
18:22or I do,
18:23about belonging, behaving, and believing,
18:25and we have quite a lot of people
18:26who would perhaps say they belong,
18:28haven't got to the spiritual stuff yet,
18:30just see it as a place of community,
18:32and that's fine,
18:33that's Christianity for me,
18:35and welcome.
18:36It's like a song, isn't it?
18:37Belonging, behaving, believing.
18:40But the other thing I just want to say,
18:42quickly,
18:43is that it's becoming
18:44an international community here as well.
18:46You know, we've got families from Nigeria here,
18:49we've got family from Russia, Latvia,
18:51from America, from Hong Kong,
18:53from Burnley,
18:54from everywhere,
18:56and I absolutely love that.
18:58And what's been great is to see
19:00how the church,
19:01the existing church community has evolved
19:03and started to embrace people from outside.
19:06It's been a great learning curve for them,
19:08and for me,
19:09and for the people who've come as well.
19:11Both will tell you,
19:12Burnley can be quite colloquial at times.
19:14You know,
19:15you can be a bit of an outsider at first,
19:17but once you're in,
19:18you're in,
19:19and most people who feel like that
19:21don't want to leave.
19:23All the kids don't wear Man United
19:25and Liverpool shirts,
19:27they all wear Burnley shirts.
19:29And I think that's a great thing.
19:31It's like that sense of,
19:32yep, we're belonging,
19:33we're all together in this.
19:48.