Daniel Baumann is a Swiss curator and art historian who served as the director of Kunsthalle Zürich from January 2015 until February 2025. Renowned for his innovative approach to contemporary art, Baumann has a rich curatorial background. In 1996, he became curator at the Adolf Wölfli Foundation in Bern and between 2003 and 2010 he directed Kunsttangente, a public art project in Basel. In 2004, Daniel Baumann established an ongoing exhibition series in Tbilisi, Georgia, and in 2008 he co-founded the independent art space New Jerseyy in Basel. In 2013 he co-curated the Carnegie International in Pittsburgh. During his decade-long tenure at Kunsthalle Zürich, Baumann shaped the institution into a dynamic platform for experimental and internationally significant contemporary art, leaving a lasting impact before transitioning to work as an independent curator. He has curated exhibitions with artists such as Andro Wekua, Phyllida Barlow, Albert Oehlen and Rob Pruitt. He was a contributing writer for Exhibition #1, Kunst Bulletin, Parkett, and Spike Art Quarterly. Baumann received the Swiss Award for Best Curator in 2006 and was appointed Special Advisor for Frieze in 2009. In this conversation (in German, English subtitles via YouTube player settings), Daniel Baumann talks about his many projects such as New Jerseyy, his time at Kunsthalle Zürich, and future projects.
Interview with Independent Curator Daniel Baumann. Basel (Switzerland), March 4, 2025.
Interview with Independent Curator Daniel Baumann. Basel (Switzerland), March 4, 2025.
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CreativityTranscript
00:00:00Let's start!
00:00:02Let's start!
00:00:04First with shrunken arms.
00:00:06Exactly.
00:00:08And after that,
00:00:10we'll get started.
00:00:12Yes, Daniel,
00:00:14we met for the first time in Basel,
00:00:16in the New Jersey art space.
00:00:18Tell me,
00:00:20how did you get to know
00:00:22this place?
00:00:24How did you get to know
00:00:26this place?
00:00:28New Jersey.
00:00:30Tell me, what was it
00:00:32and how did you get there?
00:00:34It was a small exhibition space
00:00:36New Jersey
00:00:38with two Ys at the end.
00:00:40That's why we also say New Jersey.
00:00:42It was a small exhibition space
00:00:44in the north of Basel,
00:00:46in the St. Johann Quarter.
00:00:48It was part of a project
00:00:50that I led.
00:00:52It was called Nordtangente Kunsttangente.
00:00:54It was about art in the public space
00:00:56in the north of Basel.
00:00:58I had the idea
00:01:00that art in the public space
00:01:02could be a little more
00:01:04than a mural or a sculpture
00:01:06or something
00:01:08that stands in your way
00:01:10when you ride a bike or walk.
00:01:12It could actually
00:01:14be about
00:01:16reviving a quarter.
00:01:18It was
00:01:20around
00:01:222003-2004-2005
00:01:24when it was a quarter in disrepair.
00:01:28I then thought
00:01:30what
00:01:32could make this quarter
00:01:34alive again?
00:01:36What could help people
00:01:38to get there?
00:01:40Because, as we all know,
00:01:42we don't go to any quarter
00:01:44because of a mural,
00:01:46but if there is an opening,
00:01:48we go there.
00:01:50And then it happened
00:01:52that we saw a small TV show
00:01:54in Basel
00:01:56called Used Future.
00:01:58They were made by three guys
00:02:00and because I was interested
00:02:02in publication, I bought them.
00:02:04And a little later
00:02:06I met the painter
00:02:08Emil Michael Klein.
00:02:10He knew the three guys
00:02:12and that's how we met.
00:02:14They were all much younger than me
00:02:16because they were still
00:02:18in school.
00:02:20In Zurich at the time
00:02:22there was no photo class
00:02:24and one was a graphic designer.
00:02:26It was like this
00:02:28that
00:02:30they called me
00:02:32and said
00:02:34that during the Art Basel
00:02:38they wanted to put a caravan
00:02:40in front of the Art Basel
00:02:42to sell their fans
00:02:44in Used Future.
00:02:46Those were the three guys
00:02:48Thomas Madison, Emmanuel Rossetti
00:02:50and Dan Solbach, all from Basel.
00:02:52And I told them
00:02:54forget it, you'll be there
00:02:56for exactly three minutes
00:02:58and then they'll chase you away.
00:03:00And then I said,
00:03:02let's go to St. Louis,
00:03:04something different, not always Basel,
00:03:06it's only ten minutes from the fair.
00:03:08We tried,
00:03:10but we didn't find anything
00:03:12and by chance I was at a party
00:03:14where John Armlether was sitting,
00:03:16and he's been running
00:03:18Eckart for decades now,
00:03:20this stand Eckart
00:03:22at the Art Basel,
00:03:24this little niche,
00:03:26this hole in the wall
00:03:28where he always invites
00:03:30young people.
00:03:32We were sitting at the table
00:03:34and I said,
00:03:36John, I know
00:03:38three young people
00:03:40who make this magazine
00:03:42and you were with Eckart
00:03:44on vacation
00:03:46and luxury and so on.
00:03:48Wouldn't you like
00:03:50to show this magazine
00:03:52because they're looking for a place?
00:03:54And then he said,
00:03:56yes, that's just perfect
00:03:58because I have way too much to do,
00:04:00I have to do a record shop and so on.
00:04:02And then this stand
00:04:04Eckart
00:04:06or Used Future
00:04:08or Nieves,
00:04:10we invited Nieves afterwards,
00:04:12he's from Zurich,
00:04:14who produced his fanzines.
00:04:16But what I noticed
00:04:18in the preparation
00:04:22of this stand
00:04:24with John Armlether,
00:04:26what I noticed was
00:04:28how the three, Tobias, Dan and Eman
00:04:30communicated on e-mail.
00:04:32It was very direct
00:04:34and without taking a page
00:04:36they also insulted each other
00:04:38when they didn't like
00:04:40each other.
00:04:42And I thought, okay,
00:04:44that's refreshing
00:04:46how they speak directly.
00:04:48In any case,
00:04:50I had this experience
00:04:52and found it all funny
00:04:54and fresh.
00:04:56And then
00:04:58in the context of this project
00:05:00for Kunst im öffentlichem Raum
00:05:02in the north, back again,
00:05:04Kunstangente, Nordtangente,
00:05:06I found an empty shop floor
00:05:08in the city of Basel
00:05:10that had to be rented.
00:05:12And then I suggested
00:05:14to the control group,
00:05:16the city of Basel,
00:05:18whether they wanted to support
00:05:20a project for a
00:05:22exhibition space
00:05:24by them, with them.
00:05:26And the committee
00:05:28said yes, the control group said yes
00:05:30and spoke 40,000 francs.
00:05:32And then I went back
00:05:34to Emanuel, Tobias
00:05:36and Dan
00:05:38and said, hey, don't you want to?
00:05:40I can provide you with a room
00:05:42but you have to do what you want.
00:05:44And then they said,
00:05:46yes, we'd love to do that,
00:05:48but I have to be there too.
00:05:50Which actually,
00:05:52which I then also
00:05:54thought was a good idea
00:05:56because I was already worried
00:05:58that these 40,000 francs
00:06:00had flown out the window somewhere
00:06:02in two weeks.
00:06:04So I could be sure
00:06:06that the money
00:06:08would be used well.
00:06:10In any case,
00:06:12it turned out to be a very successful room.
00:06:14Actually,
00:06:16it wasn't planned yet,
00:06:18but somehow, suddenly,
00:06:20the gallery owners came,
00:06:22museum curators came,
00:06:24museum people came
00:06:26and we somehow
00:06:28got a zeitnerv,
00:06:30a zeitgeist
00:06:32with you,
00:06:34with your connections.
00:06:36I, 20 years older,
00:06:38and a little bit of other connections
00:06:40and also more experience and insights.
00:06:42And yet,
00:06:44what we kept
00:06:46was this hard discussion.
00:06:48You just
00:06:50didn't say anything.
00:06:52And the principle was
00:06:54all four had to be there.
00:06:56That was the principle.
00:06:58The exhibition doesn't exist
00:07:00until all four are there.
00:07:02But that had the consequence
00:07:04that you had to argue.
00:07:06You had to discuss, argue,
00:07:08convince the others.
00:07:10And if it didn't work,
00:07:12you just didn't do it.
00:07:14The pace was high.
00:07:16Once a month,
00:07:18a new exhibition.
00:07:20In five years,
00:07:22I think 2008 to 2013,
00:07:24we had 60 exhibitions.
00:07:26Wednesday,
00:07:28Saturday, Friday,
00:07:30opening.
00:07:32And that became
00:07:34a legendary meeting point
00:07:36of an art scene.
00:07:38Even internationally,
00:07:40people still talk about it today.
00:07:42And that had to do
00:07:44with this website.
00:07:46Especially Emanuel,
00:07:48but we were all very committed
00:07:50that whatever we do,
00:07:52it has to be well documented.
00:07:54We do it in the service
00:07:56of the artist.
00:07:58It had to be well documented
00:08:00so that everyone could see it.
00:08:02We were in Basel,
00:08:04not in Paris or New York.
00:08:06So how do you get some attention?
00:08:08Back then,
00:08:10this new thing,
00:08:12the website.
00:08:14And then
00:08:16it took off.
00:08:18It took off,
00:08:20but in parallel to that,
00:08:22I worked for the Fries Art Fair,
00:08:24I wrote an article
00:08:26and then went to Georgia
00:08:28and did an exhibition.
00:08:30So it was a project
00:08:32of quite a few.
00:08:34And the reason why I did
00:08:36all these different things
00:08:38was that I
00:08:40decided at some point,
00:08:42I had studied art history
00:08:44in Geneva,
00:08:46had made such experiences,
00:08:48had edited for Catalogue,
00:08:50a retrospective
00:08:52by Martin Kippenberg in Mamco,
00:08:54small projects,
00:08:56exhibitions and so on.
00:08:58And then at some point
00:09:00I had to
00:09:02get into this
00:09:04career planning,
00:09:06art club, art hall
00:09:08and then the stairs up or down.
00:09:10And then I
00:09:12decided
00:09:14that I actually
00:09:16wanted to find out first
00:09:18which platform could
00:09:20enable this kind of art.
00:09:22What can a fair in Fries,
00:09:24what can an off-space,
00:09:26what can an exhibition series
00:09:28in Georgia,
00:09:30what can my co-workers
00:09:32from the Adolf Wölffi Stiftung Kunstmuseum Bern,
00:09:34what can write,
00:09:36which platform
00:09:38does what.
00:09:40And that was
00:09:42a lot of fun,
00:09:44because it wasn't boring,
00:09:46because every time
00:09:48I had to work
00:09:50in new languages.
00:09:54My impression is
00:09:56that you are very interested
00:09:58in many things,
00:10:00a very interested person, very curious.
00:10:02And you can see that
00:10:04in the exhibitions you did
00:10:06in the Kunsthalle Zurich.
00:10:08Those were very
00:10:10diverse exhibitions.
00:10:12Can you tell us a little bit about that?
00:10:14How did you get into it?
00:10:16How did you come to the Kunsthalle?
00:10:18And what was your approach?
00:10:20What did you want to do there?
00:10:22Move?
00:10:24It was then that
00:10:26I was asked in 2011,
00:10:28I think,
00:10:30if I wanted to curate
00:10:32the Carnegie International in Pittsburgh.
00:10:34And that interested me.
00:10:36Again, a Biennale,
00:10:38another platform.
00:10:40And then I traveled there with my family.
00:10:42My wife and our two children
00:10:44were there,
00:10:46and we lived there for two years.
00:10:48We came back
00:10:50when we were 14,
00:10:52and then the exhibition became
00:10:54the Kunsthalle Zurich,
00:10:56and I applied
00:10:58for this position.
00:11:00I actually applied
00:11:02in this letter
00:11:04with the statement
00:11:06that I was
00:11:08submitting the institution
00:11:10to a stress test.
00:11:12I was interested in contemporary art,
00:11:14and that was a very small world.
00:11:16The 80s and 90s were
00:11:18really in Europe.
00:11:20I would say
00:11:22there were maybe 100, 200 actors.
00:11:24Collectors,
00:11:2630 galleries,
00:11:2830 institutions,
00:11:30and then the audience,
00:11:32and of course the artists,
00:11:34but there were really 500 people
00:11:36when it came out,
00:11:38and everyone knew each other.
00:11:40In the 80s,
00:11:42like so many others,
00:11:44it globalized,
00:11:46and it was then,
00:11:4814, 15,
00:11:50you were still in the middle of this boom,
00:11:52and I think there were
00:11:54300, 400 Biennales,
00:11:56exhibitions,
00:11:58tens of thousands of galleries,
00:12:00museums, and so on.
00:12:02And then I asked myself,
00:12:04this Kunsthalle,
00:12:06which was actually founded
00:12:08to offer a platform for artists,
00:12:10is again
00:12:12in a totally globalized
00:12:14market
00:12:16and world.
00:12:18And my question
00:12:20was actually,
00:12:22what is the task
00:12:24of this platform
00:12:26today?
00:12:28But I'm not a theorist.
00:12:30I read
00:12:32theory, but I
00:12:34somehow
00:12:36like to
00:12:38rub myself against reality
00:12:40and to go with reality
00:12:42and to understand it.
00:12:44And I thought,
00:12:46I'll just do it,
00:12:48I'll see what this thing can do.
00:12:50Of course, this had
00:12:52to do with the years before,
00:12:54because I had all this experience
00:12:56that I did all these roles
00:12:58of platforms
00:13:00and did it.
00:13:02And then I thought,
00:13:04I'll take this experience
00:13:06and apply it to this platform,
00:13:08which is apparently clearly
00:13:10defined, namely a
00:13:12Kunsthalle.
00:13:14And then I
00:13:16really started
00:13:18to
00:13:20test
00:13:22it out.
00:13:24It started
00:13:26right away.
00:13:28The first exhibition was,
00:13:30on the one hand, a play that
00:13:32we rehearsed, and once a week
00:13:34there was a premiere,
00:13:36I think.
00:13:38Then there was a project by two young artists
00:13:40who had a puppet theater
00:13:42for children.
00:13:44And there was an exhibition
00:13:46by three Iranian artists
00:13:48who lived in exile
00:13:50in Dubai.
00:13:52So Iran, Dubai,
00:13:54theater, puppet play.
00:13:56And as a third
00:13:58there was an exhibition
00:14:00by Hannah Weiner.
00:14:02There were four exhibitions.
00:14:04I started with four exhibitions at the same time.
00:14:06Hannah Weiner, a poet
00:14:08from America,
00:14:10also in the field of performance,
00:14:12performance poetry.
00:14:14So you had all these
00:14:16different media.
00:14:18Theater exhibition, literature, etc.
00:14:20And right from the start
00:14:22I thought, I'll push
00:14:24a little against the
00:14:26borders and walls.
00:14:28But then I also had a classic
00:14:30exhibition with Felida Barlow
00:14:32or Albert Oehlen
00:14:34or also Liz Larner
00:14:36and so on.
00:14:38And then I also
00:14:40asked myself,
00:14:42yes, what would it be
00:14:44if the Kunsthalle
00:14:46were something else?
00:14:48What would it be if the Kunsthalle
00:14:50were a dance house?
00:14:52If the Kunsthalle
00:14:54were a playground?
00:14:56If the Kunsthalle were a church?
00:14:58They built a church with Rob Ruith.
00:15:00On Sundays
00:15:02the students of the
00:15:04Theological Faculty in Zurich
00:15:06held sermons.
00:15:08So to make
00:15:10this role change
00:15:12and
00:15:14in no case
00:15:16to understand this Kunsthalle
00:15:18as a career step for me.
00:15:20As
00:15:22an identity project
00:15:24where I as a curator
00:15:26could create an image.
00:15:28That didn't interest me at all.
00:15:30Maybe I didn't need it anymore
00:15:32because I was older
00:15:34or did all the other things.
00:15:36And
00:15:38to be honest
00:15:40it led to
00:15:42two things, I think.
00:15:44It actually
00:15:46was somewhat confusing.
00:15:48I think for many people
00:15:50it was perhaps also disappointing
00:15:52that not only contemporary art
00:15:54is shown as a lighthouse
00:15:56for what
00:15:58was perhaps just announced.
00:16:02I thought the galleries were doing
00:16:04very well anyway.
00:16:06I didn't have to interfere.
00:16:10It caused two things.
00:16:12On the one hand
00:16:14it caused an interest in the audience.
00:16:16Namely that I noticed
00:16:18that there is actually
00:16:20a large audience.
00:16:22So outside the bubble
00:16:24there is
00:16:26a large audience.
00:16:28But the galleries
00:16:30don't appeal to the audience
00:16:32because they are
00:16:34commercially oriented.
00:16:36The museums were
00:16:38or are cleaning up.
00:16:40And then I think
00:16:42okay, this audience
00:16:44has to be picked up.
00:16:46It can be picked up
00:16:48if I really
00:16:50appeal to this audience.
00:16:52I did this
00:16:54by massively building up
00:16:56the mediation,
00:16:58talking to schools.
00:17:02We have thousands
00:17:04of students
00:17:06in the Kunstsaal this year.
00:17:08But also
00:17:10through these formats
00:17:12we did a collaboration
00:17:14with the university, for example.
00:17:16It is called
00:17:18100 Ways of Thinking.
00:17:20There were 10,000 people.
00:17:22I think 80%
00:17:24have never been to the Kunstsaal.
00:17:26The people were simply interested.
00:17:28Just like I am curious
00:17:30and interested.
00:17:32I think there are a lot of people
00:17:34who are also curious and interested.
00:17:36But you have to
00:17:38pick them up.
00:17:40You have to approach them.
00:17:42And unfortunately
00:17:44the institution is always
00:17:46struggling with new
00:17:48hurdles.
00:17:50Hurdles that
00:17:52set others up.
00:17:54The institution
00:17:56has the tendency
00:17:58everywhere, be it the administration,
00:18:00be it a museum,
00:18:02be it even a zoo,
00:18:04there are entry barriers.
00:18:06And you have to
00:18:08constantly think
00:18:14how to break them down.
00:18:16Today, when you go to a museum,
00:18:18before I see a piece of art,
00:18:20I have to work for a quarter of an hour.
00:18:22That means I have to
00:18:24go up the stairs, open the door,
00:18:26then I go in, then I have to orient myself.
00:18:28Then I have to pay for the ticket.
00:18:30Then the people at the ticket say,
00:18:32I have to put my bag away,
00:18:34then I have to go to the wardrobe
00:18:36and there I have to understand
00:18:38what kind of lock system it is.
00:18:40Then I have to remember
00:18:42not to lose the key.
00:18:44Then I go up, orient myself, where do I have to go?
00:18:46Should I go for a coffee now?
00:18:48Or should I go to the bookstore?
00:18:50But I'm still not in the mood,
00:18:52and a quarter of an hour has already passed.
00:18:54So how do I get the 15 minutes
00:18:56reduced to one?
00:18:58Nobody knows that.
00:19:00And that's what I did.
00:19:06This step
00:19:08towards the audience
00:19:10is enormously important.
00:19:14And maybe as a side story
00:19:16to something that has
00:19:18inspired me very well
00:19:20lately,
00:19:22I'm doing an interview,
00:19:24a long interview
00:19:26with the American
00:19:28dancer and choreographer
00:19:30Trashel Harrell.
00:19:32And he told me something very interesting.
00:19:34He told me
00:19:36how someone told him,
00:19:38and that's how it should go,
00:19:40someone told him,
00:19:42you know, when you're young,
00:19:44you do something
00:19:46only for yourself first.
00:19:48You stand in the middle,
00:19:50you do it for yourself,
00:19:52it's all about you.
00:19:54The second step is,
00:19:56you do it in isolation from the others.
00:19:58You want to get out of your comfort zone,
00:20:00you want your place
00:20:02in the social setting,
00:20:04you do it in isolation from the others.
00:20:06The third step is,
00:20:08if you've overcome that too,
00:20:10you do it for the audience.
00:20:12Because you actually realize that
00:20:14it's good and nice,
00:20:16but it's also a bit childish,
00:20:18only for yourself or against the others.
00:20:20You do it in puberty.
00:20:22So you turn to the audience
00:20:24and realize you're actually
00:20:26in the service of something.
00:20:28And then,
00:20:30actually the best step is
00:20:32step number four,
00:20:34or everything is part of it.
00:20:36So for me,
00:20:38this time in the Kunsthalle Zürich
00:20:40was a sure step,
00:20:42already before I started,
00:20:44but that was a sure step,
00:20:46step number three, to the audience.
00:20:52And that was actually
00:20:54a lot of fun,
00:20:56but of course,
00:20:58many people
00:21:00thought it was betrayal
00:21:02that I didn't just
00:21:04turn to one or the other
00:21:06exclusively.
00:21:08I then
00:21:10suddenly said,
00:21:12and that was a provocation,
00:21:14I said, I don't do this exhibition
00:21:16for artists anymore,
00:21:18I do this exhibition for the audience,
00:21:20which is also my task.
00:21:22Of course I do it for the artists,
00:21:24but to take this step
00:21:26is also important for artists
00:21:28because you don't do it
00:21:30for the art, but for the audience.
00:21:34And then there was
00:21:36a second
00:21:38development,
00:21:40so in this stress test,
00:21:42I was still
00:21:44in the idea of the stress test,
00:21:46and I think
00:21:48the first,
00:21:50not the function
00:21:52of an art hall, what is it,
00:21:54is the work
00:21:56for the audience.
00:21:58It sounds incredibly banal
00:22:00and stupid and trivial,
00:22:02but it's
00:22:04not that easy
00:22:06to do that.
00:22:08And the second thing, and I only
00:22:10had that in the last few months,
00:22:12and
00:22:14that's how it actually
00:22:16turned out,
00:22:18is that,
00:22:20and we talked about it
00:22:22before the conversation,
00:22:24this concern for the polarization
00:22:26of society.
00:22:28And then I thought,
00:22:30what can I do
00:22:36to build bridges?
00:22:40The step for our generation
00:22:42is enormous, because
00:22:44I recently read that
00:22:46someone said that
00:22:48culture is a kit
00:22:50for society,
00:22:52it holds society together.
00:22:54My generation
00:22:56of the 80s, and certainly
00:22:58for the generation before that,
00:23:00for us,
00:23:02culture and art were the
00:23:04possibility to blow up society.
00:23:06We actually wanted a society
00:23:08that we perceived as enormously
00:23:10coherent, about
00:23:12rock music, about punk,
00:23:14about revolution, about
00:23:16performance, about discretion,
00:23:18transgression, we wanted to
00:23:20blow up these festivals.
00:23:22And then they said, no,
00:23:24culture is
00:23:26important for the
00:23:28coherence of
00:23:30society.
00:23:32And that's what I
00:23:34actually
00:23:36also think,
00:23:38because
00:23:40I then, without really
00:23:42realizing it afterwards,
00:23:44because I then started
00:23:46to work with other institutions.
00:23:48I then
00:23:50started in Zurich
00:23:52with the Schauspielhaus projects,
00:23:54with the university,
00:23:56with people from the dance,
00:23:58the dance house,
00:24:00with the theological faculty,
00:24:02then recently with the ETH
00:24:04and the architecture department,
00:24:10and probably
00:24:12there is much more,
00:24:14and then I invited
00:24:16artists to do programs
00:24:18in the Kunsthalle.
00:24:20Suddenly I thought,
00:24:22this could be a place
00:24:24where we bring people
00:24:26together again.
00:24:28So this feeling that
00:24:30in order to live in a society
00:24:32that is always drifting apart,
00:24:34what can I do
00:24:36about it?
00:24:38And I just had this privilege
00:24:40to have this public platform,
00:24:42called Kunsthalle,
00:24:44and then actually
00:24:46especially with COVID,
00:24:48where everything
00:24:50got even stronger,
00:24:52I tried to use it
00:24:54as a tool to actually
00:24:56bring people together.
00:24:58Because I saw how everything
00:25:00drifted apart,
00:25:02how friendships broke apart
00:25:04during COVID,
00:25:06but also for political reasons
00:25:08with all the
00:25:10great events in the world.
00:25:12And I somehow
00:25:14thought it was
00:25:16suddenly important
00:25:18not to think
00:25:20about art first,
00:25:22but to think about the art
00:25:24that brings
00:25:26people together
00:25:28at a table.
00:25:30And I think that was
00:25:32important
00:25:34in the last years,
00:25:36and of course
00:25:38in the entire last years
00:25:40this view
00:25:42to the outside world,
00:25:44beyond Europe, beyond America,
00:25:46to Bangladesh,
00:25:48to the Sudan,
00:25:50to Iran,
00:25:52to Sri Lanka,
00:25:54to look out into all these
00:25:56areas and to bring people
00:25:58from there,
00:26:00so that they can actually
00:26:02share with us
00:26:04some of their interests
00:26:06and ideas
00:26:08with their language.
00:26:10Yes, that's how it occurred to me.
00:26:12All the exhibitions were very
00:26:14open to the public.
00:26:16I mean,
00:26:18it was never like
00:26:20you thought,
00:26:22okay, this is the artist
00:26:24in this pipeline
00:26:26of some influencers
00:26:28who are already there,
00:26:30who you already see,
00:26:32the artists in other galleries
00:26:34or art halls or museums.
00:26:36It was always a very open story.
00:26:38Especially because you mentioned
00:26:40the COVID-19 situation.
00:26:42You really did things
00:26:44that you would never have expected
00:26:46from an art hall,
00:26:48where you invited people,
00:26:50where you helped regional artists
00:26:52during COVID-19,
00:26:54or where you did your own exhibition,
00:26:56things like that.
00:26:58And I think that also ensured
00:27:00that people came.
00:27:02It was always full.
00:27:04The audience was always there.
00:27:06The audience was always different,
00:27:08not just the scene.
00:27:10And I think
00:27:12that's where it comes out.
00:27:14The interest
00:27:16that goes beyond
00:27:18the things
00:27:20that you usually see.
00:27:24Yes, and maybe it was
00:27:26of course
00:27:28a bit like
00:27:30a pilgrimage
00:27:32between
00:27:34an engagement
00:27:36for the place where you live.
00:27:38I've traveled a lot
00:27:40and then I realized
00:27:42that I couldn't remember
00:27:44what I saw where,
00:27:46because everything looked
00:27:48a bit similar anyway.
00:27:50So you saw the same
00:27:52in Venice as in
00:27:54Charsha, as in New York,
00:27:56Los Angeles
00:27:58or Berlin.
00:28:00It all got a bit
00:28:02out of hand.
00:28:04And then
00:28:08I got bored.
00:28:10I found it boring.
00:28:12And then I
00:28:14tried
00:28:18to go back
00:28:20to these
00:28:22positions that
00:28:24maybe
00:28:26weren't
00:28:28directly in the mainstream
00:28:30or
00:28:32weren't in the canon yet,
00:28:36that weren't blessed
00:28:38or maybe weren't commercial enough,
00:28:40because I was actually
00:28:42interested in the language
00:28:44of these artists.
00:28:46I'm someone who
00:28:48gets bored
00:28:50quickly and I'm
00:28:52also very reluctant
00:28:54when people
00:28:56repeat common places.
00:28:58It's the same in art,
00:29:00like everywhere else.
00:29:02I always got bored
00:29:04and I was always interested
00:29:06in the art that I didn't understand.
00:29:08The art that I immediately understood.
00:29:10Then I thought, okay,
00:29:12that's like a song I've heard
00:29:14ten times, now I need to hear it
00:29:16an eleventh time.
00:29:18But when I hear one
00:29:20that I don't understand,
00:29:22I think, okay,
00:29:24there's something there
00:29:26that I'm interested in.
00:29:30Of course,
00:29:32it's difficult
00:29:34to show such a position,
00:29:36because
00:29:38there's no danger
00:29:40that no one else
00:29:42is interested in it.
00:29:44Interestingly,
00:29:48the opposite has shown itself.
00:29:50It often has a more
00:29:52well-known position.
00:29:54It could be a blockbuster
00:29:56or a famous artist.
00:29:58That was average.
00:30:02But then
00:30:04such artists like
00:30:06Patti Hill or Pippa Garner,
00:30:08who really no one
00:30:10knew,
00:30:12became the most successful exhibitions.
00:30:14And there
00:30:16was
00:30:18another exhibition
00:30:20for which I really
00:30:22was very criticized.
00:30:24I thought,
00:30:26now all my friends hate me
00:30:28and that doesn't matter,
00:30:30namely this exhibition about
00:30:32NFT and blockchain,
00:30:34called Dior.
00:30:36Within this exhibition,
00:30:38which I found very interesting,
00:30:40whether I liked it or not,
00:30:42I just found it interesting,
00:30:44we had to do a
00:30:46visitor survey
00:30:48because we got
00:30:50very little money.
00:30:52And what came out of it
00:30:54I found interesting, namely
00:30:56the biggest, one always thinks
00:30:58social media is the most important,
00:31:00is the most important medium
00:31:02to attract people.
00:31:04That's not true.
00:31:06It's about 15 percent.
00:31:08Absolutely the most important
00:31:10are people who tell other people,
00:31:12I saw this exhibition,
00:31:14look at it, it's really interesting.
00:31:16It's 30 to 40 percent.
00:31:18So
00:31:2030 to 40 percent
00:31:22of people come
00:31:24because a friend, a friend,
00:31:26colleague, family said
00:31:28it's interesting.
00:31:30And it's the same for us.
00:31:32I also go to exhibitions.
00:31:34If someone tells me, hey, look at this,
00:31:36then I go there.
00:31:38If I see something on Instagram ten times,
00:31:40I don't go there yet.
00:31:42And I thought, okay,
00:31:44apart from this idea
00:31:46that the audience is accessible
00:31:48and does everything,
00:31:50that everything is understood,
00:31:52it's also just, and I sometimes don't understand that,
00:31:54with institutions or with others,
00:31:56this obsession with
00:31:58self-promotion.
00:32:00It's much more important
00:32:02to make the exhibition good
00:32:04than just doing good advertising.
00:32:08The advertising is
00:32:1010 to 20 percent
00:32:12people who like the exhibition
00:32:14because you've done everything
00:32:16to make them feel good.
00:32:18That's the most important thing.
00:32:20And that's what you actually see
00:32:22both from
00:32:24this turning to the audience,
00:32:26you can say
00:32:28that's all nice and helpful
00:32:30and blah blah,
00:32:32you can say,
00:32:34but even if you think commercially,
00:32:36it's the A and O
00:32:38that you turn to the audience.
00:32:44So there was this
00:32:46question
00:32:48how
00:32:50do I bring
00:32:52art to people
00:32:54and during COVID,
00:32:56you mentioned COVID,
00:32:58I just saw
00:33:00and that's just because
00:33:02I'm not interested in theory,
00:33:04but rather in reality,
00:33:06but I'm not devoid of theory either,
00:33:08I find that very interesting.
00:33:10I saw how people suffer,
00:33:12both financially,
00:33:14because all the jobs,
00:33:16many artists are in bars,
00:33:18are in the exhibition setting,
00:33:20both Art Basel and so on,
00:33:22do side work
00:33:24and earn something there,
00:33:26something there,
00:33:28everything has fallen away.
00:33:30And then I thought,
00:33:32okay, I have a budget.
00:33:34Now what do I do?
00:33:36Instead of spending this budget
00:33:38for transport,
00:33:40I thought
00:33:42I invite 40 artists
00:33:44and give them
00:33:461,000 francs each,
00:33:48with the condition that they bring
00:33:50one work of art to the art gallery,
00:33:52and only from the district of Zurich,
00:33:54because of course
00:33:56I didn't want to pay
00:33:581,000 francs and then
00:34:00the 1,000 francs were gone.
00:34:02It was really the idea
00:34:04you can bring a drawing
00:34:06without a frame
00:34:08in the drum
00:34:10and we hang it up,
00:34:12or you do something much bigger,
00:34:14I don't care, 1,000 francs, it's yours.
00:34:16And from this
00:34:18a kind of festival
00:34:20was created with
00:34:2222 openings,
00:34:24because we had to set up
00:34:26stage 4 because of Corona.
00:34:28And many of them,
00:34:30someone recently wrote to me,
00:34:32many of them
00:34:34also got a new exhibition
00:34:36and found galleries
00:34:38and so on.
00:34:40So this thinking
00:34:42in these
00:34:44local, global,
00:34:46international conditions
00:34:48is a bit skewed.
00:34:50I have a relatively skewed
00:34:52attitude
00:34:54of party soldiers
00:34:56and soldiers of the system
00:34:58and I actually
00:35:00didn't feel like it anymore.
00:35:06Yes,
00:35:08there were so many
00:35:10really interesting exhibitions.
00:35:12The artists,
00:35:14what I would be interested in,
00:35:16how did you work with the artists?
00:35:18Because artists are not,
00:35:20like everyone else, people,
00:35:22and people can be difficult at times.
00:35:24Were there
00:35:26any anecdotes
00:35:28that you can tell? You don't need to name names,
00:35:30but how do you deal with it?
00:35:32Artists also make demands
00:35:34and can be difficult
00:35:36at times.
00:35:38Did that burden you?
00:35:40Or how did you deal with it?
00:35:42No, I always enjoyed doing it.
00:35:44I am lucky that I like to
00:35:46work with artists.
00:35:48I've been doing this
00:35:50since I was young.
00:35:52Somehow I got used to it.
00:35:54I was always happy,
00:35:56or had a great tolerance,
00:35:58because I think these are people
00:36:00who actually dare a lot.
00:36:02It is something
00:36:04that is very closely related to each person.
00:36:06Then they develop their work
00:36:08and put it in public.
00:36:10They expose themselves extremely.
00:36:12Because if someone comes and says
00:36:14that this is the biggest nonsense I have ever seen,
00:36:16but you have to take it personally.
00:36:18And not many dare to do that.
00:36:22It's hard.
00:36:24But the thing that
00:36:26helped me
00:36:28is
00:36:30that I like to learn
00:36:32from art.
00:36:34Somehow I have this connection
00:36:36of image and thought,
00:36:38which is so important
00:36:40in visual art,
00:36:42of course also in film.
00:36:44That's why
00:36:46I'm not a
00:36:48theoretician,
00:36:50but it was
00:36:52such a good mixture
00:36:54of theory and concept
00:36:56and idea
00:36:58in a simultaneous implementation
00:37:00in a second reality,
00:37:02in something else
00:37:04that has a performance like on a stage.
00:37:06And this connection of these ideas
00:37:08that are in this thing
00:37:10and the form it then takes
00:37:12to confront me,
00:37:14that was always something that interested me
00:37:16if it went well.
00:37:18And so my thing was always
00:37:20I do it for the art,
00:37:22not so much for the art,
00:37:24because I actually want to show
00:37:26everything that exists to others.
00:37:28Of course there are
00:37:30again and again
00:37:32such
00:37:34demands
00:37:36on me.
00:37:38But maybe the artists
00:37:40have also noticed that
00:37:42it's just about this art,
00:37:44it doesn't make sense to me anymore.
00:37:46So all this, the performance,
00:37:48the show, the tra-li-tra-la
00:37:50of some
00:37:52prestige guests,
00:37:54that doesn't interest me at all.
00:37:56Because this art doesn't interest me,
00:37:58the prestige.
00:38:00And of course there were
00:38:02conflicts again and again,
00:38:04but actually
00:38:06relatively
00:38:08few,
00:38:10because I
00:38:12of course I could,
00:38:14I had chosen,
00:38:16that is, I met the person,
00:38:18I saw the art,
00:38:20I met the person
00:38:22to be sure that this is really
00:38:24what I think and that it also behaves
00:38:26and that it is also in these
00:38:28large spaces of the Kunsthalle Zürich
00:38:30does not fall flat.
00:38:32And in this respect, there was already
00:38:34this confession
00:38:36that I wanted it that way
00:38:38and would go through. And I think
00:38:40that also made people
00:38:42have confidence.
00:38:44Often, of course,
00:38:46a difficult
00:38:48behavior
00:38:50may have to do with the fact that you are
00:38:52insecure or that you do not trust
00:38:54or that you hesitate
00:38:56or something.
00:38:58I am always convinced,
00:39:00I am a convict and then
00:39:02I did the thing and I think
00:39:04that probably helped
00:39:06to keep such
00:39:08side sounds
00:39:10deep.
00:39:12But I also
00:39:14with the artists, often I said
00:39:16so, as a build-up,
00:39:18I also said so,
00:39:20now we go in front of the door
00:39:22and now we walk into this exhibition
00:39:24and now we see what we see
00:39:26and whether it looks good.
00:39:28So they also, I think,
00:39:30I wanted
00:39:32that this art appears in the best light,
00:39:34but also in the best light
00:39:36accessible to an audience.
00:39:38And I think
00:39:40that maybe gave me
00:39:42a lot of credibility
00:39:44and then they don't have to
00:39:46perform such theater
00:39:48things.
00:39:50And of course,
00:39:52from time to time there were conflicts
00:39:54and then you have to
00:39:56talk about it.
00:39:58But I think you can do that
00:40:00anyway. What I always notice
00:40:02with the openings,
00:40:04so you speak freely,
00:40:06that is, in the speeches, as well as in the tours
00:40:08and you also explain it
00:40:10so that you understand it.
00:40:12So it's not a language that
00:40:14is typically
00:40:16claused
00:40:18with many foreign words, etc.
00:40:20And I think you have
00:40:22such a natural talent
00:40:24to communicate and maybe
00:40:26it also helped with the artists, but also
00:40:28with the audience. Did you somehow
00:40:30learn that or is it just
00:40:32given by nature or did you somehow
00:40:34do media training or something?
00:40:36Because there are also people who do media training
00:40:38and so, but
00:40:40is it just your natural
00:40:42communication?
00:40:44Well, maybe I'm
00:40:46a communicative type
00:40:48by nature, but I had to
00:40:50I fought for the language
00:40:52for years.
00:40:54I was at the university
00:40:56and at the university
00:40:58there is this jargon that is
00:41:00maintained there
00:41:02and without it
00:41:04you are not taken seriously.
00:41:06And I always found it a bit
00:41:08boring because I often thought
00:41:10that now something
00:41:12relatively banal is presented
00:41:14a bit complicated and that was
00:41:16embarrassing for me.
00:41:18But then I studied art history
00:41:20in Geneva and it was
00:41:22so that we had a very good professor
00:41:24who taught us, his name was
00:41:26Maurice Besse, to see and analyze.
00:41:28Unfortunately, he
00:41:30was then retired and his successor
00:41:32was no longer my cup of tea.
00:41:34And then I
00:41:36happened to be in the
00:41:38newspaper reading room
00:41:40at the university,
00:41:42the newspaper of the world every day.
00:41:44So really America,
00:41:46France, Switzerland,
00:41:48Germany, Italy,
00:41:50I think Russia, China,
00:41:52Southeast Switzerland,
00:41:54Graubünden, everything.
00:41:56And there was this
00:41:58New York Review of Books
00:42:00in the mid-90s
00:42:02and I started reading them
00:42:04and what impressed me there
00:42:06was that Nobel Prize winners
00:42:08wrote about quantum physics
00:42:10or there were
00:42:12writers who wrote about something
00:42:14and you could understand everything.
00:42:16And I thought,
00:42:18ah, that's not
00:42:20a inferior way of writing
00:42:22when you are understood,
00:42:24but it is actually a virtue,
00:42:26it is a skill and a challenge
00:42:28that you do it that way.
00:42:30So if a Nobel Prize winner writes
00:42:32that I understand it
00:42:34and it is interesting and funny
00:42:36and direct and efficient,
00:42:38that's actually where I want to go.
00:42:40But that took
00:42:42a very, very long time
00:42:44because I had to unlearn
00:42:46this jargon.
00:42:48That was the first step.
00:42:50The second step was to speak in front of people.
00:42:52I had these moments
00:42:54where I had blackouts
00:42:56and that was infinitely
00:42:58unpleasant,
00:43:00when that happened to you.
00:43:02And then
00:43:04I just trained,
00:43:06I gave lectures
00:43:08and, of course,
00:43:10at first I wrote everything down
00:43:12and so on,
00:43:14and today I do it like this,
00:43:16I can't talk long,
00:43:18I can only keep it short
00:43:20if I know the topic very well,
00:43:22so I can do it for every exhibition
00:43:24because I thought about it for months.
00:43:28But I actually prepare
00:43:30a scenario in my head
00:43:32with bullet points.
00:43:34And then I know,
00:43:36it's like when you
00:43:38walk through somewhere
00:43:40and then there are moments
00:43:42where you know,
00:43:44now I come to this topic
00:43:46and from this topic it goes on
00:43:48and I know that after this topic
00:43:50I have to look at
00:43:52the next one,
00:43:54I know what the next one is
00:43:56and then I can make my way there.
00:43:58And the great thing is,
00:44:00of course, that the way
00:44:02doesn't always have to be the same.
00:44:04I didn't learn it by heart,
00:44:06I just know that I have to
00:44:08get to the other topic
00:44:10and then, if you have a little experience,
00:44:12it becomes funny,
00:44:14because you can reinvent yourself.
00:44:18And it's like
00:44:20with everything,
00:44:22you practice it and get into it,
00:44:24but the funniest thing was
00:44:26when I did a lot of guided tours,
00:44:28then I sometimes started
00:44:30to say things
00:44:32that were a bit funny
00:44:34or put me
00:44:36in trouble,
00:44:38and it was purely
00:44:40just to entertain myself,
00:44:42then I said such things
00:44:44and then I thought,
00:44:46how can I get out of
00:44:48the thing that I just
00:44:50threw forward.
00:44:52It's really,
00:44:54it's just a matter of practice.
00:44:56You practice and practice
00:44:58and at some point,
00:45:00and I do it when I ride a bike,
00:45:02when I ride a bike,
00:45:04I do all the things.
00:45:06Do you still have enough concentration
00:45:08for the road?
00:45:12In the end, it's just
00:45:14a bit like riding a bike,
00:45:16when there's a muscle in it
00:45:18and in the eyes,
00:45:20people also hear radio in their car,
00:45:22you can do this multitasking,
00:45:24the legs at the bottom, the eyes at the top,
00:45:26a little bit of the brain in the swing.
00:45:30Do you censor yourself then?
00:45:32Because you said, sometimes you
00:45:34sweep off and say things
00:45:36that may not be so ...
00:45:38So do you think about
00:45:40what you can say or what you can't
00:45:42or what somehow disturbs people?
00:45:46Well, you do that
00:45:48so that you notice
00:45:50when people get a little tired,
00:45:52sweat off and are no longer present.
00:45:54Then of course it's good
00:45:56if you say something a little bit cheeky
00:45:58or something incorrect,
00:46:00because then they wake up again
00:46:02and are a little bit in front of their heads.
00:46:04But the thing is,
00:46:06the important thing is
00:46:08that you can do things
00:46:10to perform better
00:46:12for the show.
00:46:14And that interests me less.
00:46:16It's not about me,
00:46:18but it's actually about
00:46:20what these artists
00:46:22are talking about
00:46:24or the topic
00:46:26or the ideas of others.
00:46:28And that's because
00:46:30you're actually
00:46:34enthusiastic about it yourself.
00:46:36And actually this,
00:46:38maybe
00:46:40this enthusiasm
00:46:42with other parts,
00:46:44I think that's something
00:46:46that has always inspired me.
00:46:48I don't want to insult anyone.
00:46:50I also don't know the truth.
00:46:52I have my opinion, of course.
00:46:54But actually this enthusiasm,
00:46:58I've always felt it as a quality of life
00:47:00to look at exhibitions.
00:47:04When I see something
00:47:06that is well done,
00:47:08a picture, a sculpture, an idea,
00:47:10a film,
00:47:12it makes me feel good.
00:47:14It makes my life better.
00:47:16Where does it come from?
00:47:18How did you actually
00:47:20get into art?
00:47:22Are you preloaded?
00:47:24How did it come about?
00:47:26I'm so preloaded
00:47:28that I could never draw.
00:47:30Unfortunately,
00:47:32I'm totally untalented.
00:47:34But I'm preloaded
00:47:36because I come from a family
00:47:38that is interested in culture,
00:47:40in classical education.
00:47:42But my father even more.
00:47:44He studied philosophy
00:47:46and German literature.
00:47:48He wrote about artists
00:47:50like Jean Dingel, Eva Eppli
00:47:52or Bernard Luggenbühl.
00:47:54That's how I came
00:47:56into a world.
00:47:58He was also in Burgdorf
00:48:00when I grew up.
00:48:02He was the director
00:48:04of the Casino Theater.
00:48:08I remember well
00:48:10that when I was young
00:48:12he was walking
00:48:14through the dressing room
00:48:16in front of the lecture hall.
00:48:18He greeted the people.
00:48:20I was maybe seven or eight
00:48:22or nine years old.
00:48:24I still see it today.
00:48:26The atmosphere in the dressing room,
00:48:28the excitement, the dressing up,
00:48:32the enthusiasm.
00:48:34That was a great world.
00:48:38I think later
00:48:40there was the
00:48:42Burgdorf for Bildhauer Symposium
00:48:44and I saw the people,
00:48:46art workers,
00:48:48artists working.
00:48:52Somehow this atmosphere,
00:48:54this freedom,
00:48:56this open space,
00:48:58it was, as I said at the beginning,
00:49:00art.
00:49:02You forget it easily.
00:49:04The 60s, especially the 70s
00:49:06and also the 80s,
00:49:08those were relatively conservative
00:49:10times in Switzerland.
00:49:12The bourgeoisie
00:49:14knew exactly
00:49:16what was allowed
00:49:18and what was not.
00:49:20The media were
00:49:22extremely moral
00:49:24and also said what was allowed
00:49:26and what was not.
00:49:28And then suddenly
00:49:30you discovered this world.
00:49:32If you were a little skeptical
00:49:34about all this,
00:49:36you discovered the world of music,
00:49:38of art, of film.
00:49:40And there,
00:49:42non-stop,
00:49:44they tried out some things.
00:49:46And you thought,
00:49:48wow,
00:49:50the world could be like this.
00:49:52You could think things
00:49:54like this and not like this.
00:49:56And you could
00:49:58turn around
00:50:00180 degrees,
00:50:02think and not stick to the rules.
00:50:04And something incredibly funny
00:50:06would come out of it.
00:50:08Then I thought,
00:50:10okay, I want to go into that world.
00:50:12That fit for me.
00:50:14So you are a visual person.
00:50:16Otherwise you could have become a philosopher,
00:50:18write books or something.
00:50:20No, I am a completely visual person.
00:50:22I am actually a visual person.
00:50:24Through and through.
00:50:26I love the cinema.
00:50:28I still go to the cinema
00:50:30at least once or twice a week.
00:50:32I watch a lot of exhibitions.
00:50:38The thing about this visual world
00:50:40is that it is so incredibly hybrid.
00:50:42It is a huge bastard.
00:50:44It is a mixture.
00:50:46The visual for me
00:50:48is the language.
00:50:52Music can take place,
00:50:54colors, compositions,
00:50:56structures, forms,
00:50:58everything is mixed there.
00:51:00In literature it is really
00:51:02letters and letters.
00:51:04There are words and sentences.
00:51:06In music it is just
00:51:08notations.
00:51:10And in the visual world
00:51:12it is a big mix.
00:51:14I always found that incredibly entertaining.
00:51:16Do you have a particular preference
00:51:18for a particular
00:51:20art direction?
00:51:24Painting,
00:51:26drawing, sculpture,
00:51:28video or something like that?
00:51:32I have to say that
00:51:34painting is one of the things
00:51:36on a very personal level
00:51:38that excites me a lot.
00:51:40Be it
00:51:42Matisse or Manet
00:51:46or contemporary art.
00:51:48And then
00:51:50I have to say
00:51:52last year I started to be interested
00:51:54in sculpture again.
00:51:56Because we suddenly noticed
00:51:58that our body in space
00:52:02is undergoing a complete
00:52:04re-evaluation, a re-evaluation
00:52:06with the screen.
00:52:08With the digital world
00:52:10this body was suddenly gone.
00:52:12And then I thought,
00:52:14interesting, art,
00:52:16sculpture,
00:52:18this is a body in space
00:52:20story.
00:52:22And it can tell
00:52:24quite a lot
00:52:26about this topic
00:52:28in a moment where
00:52:30apparently a
00:52:32re-evaluation is taking place.
00:52:36Be it fashion
00:52:38and all that,
00:52:40clothes on the body, skin color
00:52:42and gender and all that.
00:52:44It's interesting, you think
00:52:46the body is fleeing
00:52:48but at the same time
00:52:50the opposite is happening.
00:52:52The body is becoming more and more important
00:52:54with all these
00:52:56gender and race issues.
00:53:02So in this respect
00:53:04I don't have a favorite.
00:53:06I think drawings are great
00:53:08because they have this intimacy.
00:53:10It's almost like writing,
00:53:12worlds are being invented
00:53:14and portrayed on the paper.
00:53:20Of course the film has the narrative,
00:53:22which painting, sculpture
00:53:24and drawing hardly have.
00:53:26The film has
00:53:28the power of the narrative
00:53:30and then the play with the narrative.
00:53:32One of the interesting games
00:53:34is to re-create
00:53:36stories,
00:53:38editing,
00:53:40back and forth,
00:53:42up and down, all that.
00:53:44Every medium
00:53:46has its own
00:53:48specificity or character.
00:53:54Maybe it's something
00:53:56I like to see
00:53:58and of course it all comes together
00:54:00when there are letters on pictures.
00:54:02Suddenly this
00:54:04pictorial,
00:54:06compositional is connected
00:54:08with letters.
00:54:10But in this respect
00:54:14I have everything.
00:54:18But of course a picture of Cézanne
00:54:20is the best.
00:54:22Yes, it's amazing.
00:54:24Despite the new media
00:54:26pictures of paintings
00:54:28are still very impressive.
00:54:34But if you look
00:54:36at art,
00:54:38what do you see?
00:54:40There is this generative art,
00:54:42new media,
00:54:44NFT,
00:54:46these digital
00:54:48things.
00:54:50Where do you see
00:54:52the development,
00:54:54where is it going?
00:54:56Refik Anadol, etc.
00:55:00I don't know.
00:55:02At the moment
00:55:04it hasn't produced
00:55:06a lot of interesting things
00:55:08in the sense of
00:55:10a picture.
00:55:12For thinking
00:55:14a lot of interesting things.
00:55:16In terms of
00:55:18distribution, in terms of
00:55:20production.
00:55:22You will see
00:55:24the internet
00:55:26when it came out,
00:55:28and you can't say
00:55:30that the internet is unimportant.
00:55:32But it was thought of
00:55:34and there was actually
00:55:36so-called internet art.
00:55:38It doesn't exist anymore.
00:55:40It has totally disappeared.
00:55:42But in the 90s
00:55:44there were projects
00:55:46on the internet.
00:55:48You reciprocated it,
00:55:50you exhibited it.
00:55:52I can remember well
00:55:54the Biennale de Limoges
00:55:56and Mouvement.
00:55:58Simon Laminier was there
00:56:00and produced a lot of telephone art.
00:56:04Now you have
00:56:06these digital tools,
00:56:08apart from that,
00:56:10since a long time.
00:56:12Photoshop and everything
00:56:14hasn't produced that much.
00:56:16At the end of the day
00:56:18AI,
00:56:20artificial intelligence,
00:56:22I think it will be
00:56:24a tool,
00:56:26an important one.
00:56:28And the young people
00:56:30are learning how to deal with it.
00:56:32There was the brush,
00:56:34then the oil painting
00:56:36was invented
00:56:40in the 16th century
00:56:42or
00:56:44late 15th century
00:56:46and offered new possibilities.
00:56:48I think
00:56:50there is an enthusiasm
00:56:52if you look at it historically
00:56:54there were
00:56:56such enthusiasm.
00:56:58And at the end
00:57:00it became a tool.
00:57:02An LED screen
00:57:04and a
00:57:06cloud of files
00:57:08is not yet
00:57:10world-changing.
00:57:12It looks cool.
00:57:14But the things that look cool
00:57:16look old-fashioned
00:57:18after 10 years.
00:57:20One would rather...
00:57:22Well, I'd rather not say it.
00:57:24What I noticed
00:57:26recently
00:57:28was the internet art.
00:57:30There was a project called
00:57:32Superbad.
00:57:34It was a purely
00:57:36browser-based story.
00:57:38You could click on things
00:57:40and they still exist today.
00:57:42I think it was uploaded
00:57:44in the 90s.
00:57:46And in fact
00:57:48they still exist.
00:57:50For decades
00:57:52almost.
00:57:54And I find it more interesting
00:57:56than what is produced today.
00:57:58But today there is nothing
00:58:00against today's production.
00:58:02There are also great things.
00:58:04Since we are already
00:58:06talking about the future.
00:58:08Your future.
00:58:10I was joking
00:58:12earlier.
00:58:14You could be the Jack Reacher
00:58:16of the art world.
00:58:18Is that something you plan?
00:58:20Do you have a new project?
00:58:22Or how does your future look like?
00:58:24If you can talk about it.
00:58:26Yes, I can.
00:58:28There are no big secrets.
00:58:30I just...
00:58:34I worked as a freelancer
00:58:36for 20 years
00:58:38and then I thought
00:58:40now I can bring this experience
00:58:42from all these platforms
00:58:44into one.
00:58:46To an artist
00:58:48who has the advantage that she is flexible.
00:58:50Because she is relatively small
00:58:52and agile.
00:58:54And now I've been doing this for 10 years
00:58:56and it was really
00:58:58extremely interesting.
00:59:00It was fun and I was able to do so much.
00:59:02Maybe in a few years
00:59:04it will make a little more sense
00:59:06than at the moment, who knows.
00:59:08And then I
00:59:10maybe
00:59:12also
00:59:14thought
00:59:16about
00:59:18what I will do next.
00:59:22And then I thought
00:59:24I don't know what I will do
00:59:26next.
00:59:28Because
00:59:30I was lucky
00:59:32that things
00:59:34always...
00:59:36Maybe it has to do with this interest
00:59:38what is going on and the reality
00:59:40that
00:59:42there are things
00:59:44that suddenly interest me.
00:59:46But when I'm in an institution
00:59:48I can't see them anymore.
00:59:50Because
00:59:52I don't have time
00:59:54to see the other.
00:59:56I also didn't have time to have ideas
00:59:58because my head was full.
01:00:02And then
01:00:04I suddenly missed that.
01:00:06Actually
01:00:08I'm someone who
01:00:10has a lot of ideas
01:00:12but also a lot of not so good ideas.
01:00:14It doesn't matter. Ideas are free, I always say.
01:00:16You can have them and throw them away.
01:00:18Nobody suffers from it.
01:00:20And then from time to time
01:00:22one comes
01:00:24and it's really not bad.
01:00:26And then you think, okay
01:00:28I have to go for it
01:00:30because it could be very funny
01:00:32and interesting.
01:00:34And I thought
01:00:36I will try again
01:00:38to go for it
01:00:40because maybe
01:00:44I'm not a career person.
01:00:46That's a bit my problem.
01:00:48The institution
01:00:50is a lot of work.
01:00:52And if you don't have a bit of a motor
01:00:54of social success
01:00:56and recognition
01:00:58it can be a bit
01:01:00too exhausting
01:01:02for what you put in there.
01:01:04Except of course joy
01:01:06of social position
01:01:08and a certain
01:01:10satisfaction.
01:01:12And because I don't have that
01:01:14because I'm more interested in the ideas
01:01:16than the position
01:01:18I thought
01:01:20I have to go
01:01:26into the
01:01:28nomadic realm
01:01:32but not physically
01:01:34but mentally.
01:01:36And that was very funny.
01:01:38I was in
01:01:40Porto
01:01:42where I'm doing an exhibition
01:01:44in Portugal in the Casa San Roque.
01:01:46It was an exhibition
01:01:48by Ana Jota,
01:01:50the Portuguese artist.
01:01:52We also had an exhibition of her
01:01:54in the Kunsthalle Zürich
01:01:56and she had a picture
01:01:58she had made a series of posters
01:02:00for Offspace
01:02:02and in the corner it said
01:02:04when in doubt, go nomad.
01:02:06So if you have doubts
01:02:08become a nomad.
01:02:10And I thought
01:02:12that's exactly what I want to do.
01:02:16Because what is
01:02:18happening in this world
01:02:20that is upside down
01:02:22what is going on there
01:02:24now I have to
01:02:26think about
01:02:28what
01:02:30makes sense for art
01:02:32for all of us
01:02:34for myself
01:02:36in such a crazy situation
01:02:38where should it go
01:02:40and what could I contribute
01:02:42for a better world
01:02:44without
01:02:46I'm not
01:02:48a prophet and I'm not Joseph Beuys
01:02:50or something like that
01:02:52but I think
01:02:54it makes sense
01:02:56to contribute
01:02:58something
01:03:00that makes sense.
01:03:04And then I thought
01:03:06I have to take a break
01:03:08to think about it.
01:03:10Who knows.
01:03:12In any case, I'll continue with the exhibition
01:03:14I can definitely say that.
01:03:18And then I'll think about
01:03:20what else
01:03:22makes sense.
01:03:24I mean, you just said
01:03:26career.
01:03:28I mean, you've already
01:03:30put a lot of career into it,
01:03:32which we haven't even discussed.
01:03:34So you've done a lot more
01:03:36than we've actually discussed.
01:03:38So you can
01:03:40look back at it now.
01:03:46But what I noticed
01:03:48during the exhibition
01:03:50you did
01:03:52that you have a
01:03:54need for freedom.
01:03:56There are people who want security
01:03:58in institutions,
01:04:00protected, protected.
01:04:02And with you, I think
01:04:04you need freedom.
01:04:06So in terms of thinking,
01:04:08but also in general,
01:04:10fresh air, new ideas
01:04:14and the courage
01:04:16to do something.
01:04:18Yes, and maybe
01:04:20it's true what you're saying.
01:04:22I don't feel like
01:04:24entering,
01:04:26but because
01:04:28I like to
01:04:30design.
01:04:32I'm not an artist,
01:04:34but when I was 16 years old
01:04:36I was already
01:04:38I went to the Kunsthalle
01:04:40and saw the exhibition
01:04:42by Ulrich Loog,
01:04:44who was the curator at the time.
01:04:48And of course I thought
01:04:50should I become an artist?
01:04:52If you're a teenager
01:04:54and interested in art,
01:04:56what could I do out of it?
01:04:58And then I am
01:05:02in the Kunsthalle
01:05:04an exhibition by Bruce Naumann
01:05:06and I was so overwhelmed
01:05:08when I was maybe 18
01:05:10I thought, no,
01:05:12I will never do that in my life.
01:05:14Also just associating
01:05:16what he is presenting
01:05:18I have no idea
01:05:20if I could do that.
01:05:22Actually, I'm more interested
01:05:24in making that possible.
01:05:26And this feeling,
01:05:28but maybe
01:05:32yes, design
01:05:34free space,
01:05:36that's already
01:05:38this
01:05:40I think
01:05:42for many people
01:05:46when someone in the garden
01:05:48plants a beautiful bed,
01:05:50the flowers grow,
01:05:52the trees grow,
01:05:54I get fruits,
01:05:56I can make confiture out of it.
01:05:58It all has to do with
01:06:00actually being creative
01:06:02in some way
01:06:04and it brings a lot
01:06:06of satisfaction.
01:06:08Because you actually
01:06:10it's a total illusion,
01:06:12but you have this feeling
01:06:14you are not just
01:06:16a piece of dust
01:06:18in the wind
01:06:20of the world
01:06:22which we unfortunately
01:06:24actually are.
01:06:26You can't make an illusion.
01:06:28And yet, and that's the interesting thing,
01:06:30and yet
01:06:32this moment
01:06:34when you do something
01:06:36is, I think,
01:06:38incredibly important
01:06:40and that has to do with free space
01:06:42but not for everyone
01:06:44needs the same.
01:06:46Maybe I'm someone
01:06:48who needs a lot of free space
01:06:50so that I feel comfortable.
01:06:52Maybe that's why a career
01:06:54is not so tempting for me
01:06:56because I actually
01:06:58then have the feeling
01:07:00I'm trapped in a life plan
01:07:02which I can't even design
01:07:04or which I
01:07:06would have to submit to.
01:07:08In a podcast
01:07:10I mentioned this
01:07:12before,
01:07:14you like the vastness
01:07:16of the USA,
01:07:18what I also like,
01:07:20I think we both like
01:07:22the Alps, mountains,
01:07:24but also the vastness
01:07:26and partly this
01:07:28untouchedness
01:07:30of landscape,
01:07:32wide landscape
01:07:34and that has something to do
01:07:36with freedom.
01:07:38Yes, it has to do with freedom
01:07:40and also with this moment
01:07:42of liberation
01:07:44that you should
01:07:48do something at all.
01:07:50Of course,
01:07:52some are afraid of it.
01:07:54I know people who freak out
01:07:56when they stand in front of these empty rooms
01:07:58because they feel lost.
01:08:00I don't feel lost,
01:08:02I feel relieved.
01:08:04This fascinates me
01:08:06about the USA and partly
01:08:08also about the American culture.
01:08:10There is a small step
01:08:12into equanimity.
01:08:14This is
01:08:16what you
01:08:18notice
01:08:20and maybe
01:08:22you are also a bit shocked
01:08:24that you can see it
01:08:26and that it could be tempting
01:08:28to simply disappear into
01:08:30equanimity.
01:08:32Of course,
01:08:34this would not be
01:08:36European or Protestant
01:08:38but
01:08:40actually
01:08:42the road movie
01:08:44of course
01:08:46is disappearing.
01:08:48This is
01:08:50also
01:08:52these stories
01:08:54that fill you with awe
01:08:56and at the same time fascination
01:08:58when you hear from people
01:09:00I go to buy cigarettes
01:09:02and then they never come back.
01:09:04Oops!
01:09:06Yes, okay,
01:09:08I can understand that sometimes,
01:09:10everyone can do that,
01:09:12but it's crazy.
01:09:14But
01:09:16about equanimity
01:09:18we are of course not
01:09:20about what you will do in the future.
01:09:22We have already mentioned
01:09:24that you could actually
01:09:26make a newsletter, for example.
01:09:28What will Daniel Baumann do in the future?
01:09:32Yes, and that is actually
01:09:34one of the ideas
01:09:36would be
01:09:38to do something like that
01:09:40also because I am now
01:09:42relatively free
01:09:44to express my opinion.
01:09:48I don't care
01:09:50so much anymore,
01:09:52it's not that important
01:09:54because I can say what I want
01:09:56and nobody can
01:09:58actually stop me.
01:10:00And I do see
01:10:02that many people
01:10:04or a lot is not said anymore
01:10:06for some reason
01:10:08and then I thought
01:10:10I could make a mix
01:10:12between now and then
01:10:14also good exhibitions.
01:10:16I go to many exhibitions
01:10:18and then people always say to me
01:10:20what did you see good?
01:10:22Then I thought, okay, that would be something.
01:10:24Of course, a newsletter
01:10:26which is not
01:10:28one thing,
01:10:30but a contradictory thing
01:10:34that does
01:10:36completely different things
01:10:38is already a consideration.
01:10:40Sometimes short,
01:10:42sometimes long,
01:10:44sometimes banal,
01:10:46sometimes controversial.
01:10:48So how can I
01:10:50ultimately
01:10:52talk about art and culture
01:10:54so that this relevance
01:10:56is maintained?
01:10:58Because I recently thought, okay,
01:11:00everyone is complaining
01:11:02that there are no more
01:11:04exhibition agreements,
01:11:06that there are hardly any more
01:11:08film agreements.
01:11:10There is still a lot of theater,
01:11:12but not in the press,
01:11:14not on TV, not on the radio,
01:11:16there is less and less.
01:11:18And we've all been complaining
01:11:20that there are economic reasons
01:11:22and this and that reason,
01:11:24but does it actually have to do
01:11:26with the fact that many people think
01:11:28culture is no longer relevant?
01:11:30You could also say that,
01:11:32not just because we don't have the money anymore.
01:11:34Everyone says we don't have the money anymore.
01:11:36But now you could,
01:11:38if you really say that,
01:11:40yes, is that actually
01:11:42the mirror or expression
01:11:46of a widespread opinion
01:11:48that culture is no longer
01:11:50so relevant?
01:11:52Because when COVID came,
01:11:54people suddenly said,
01:11:56yes, culture is incredibly important
01:11:58and now it's all over again.
01:12:00And then the question is,
01:12:02how can you
01:12:04keep this culture relevant?
01:12:06Because I think it is extremely
01:12:08important and you can see it
01:12:10because I often go to Georgia.
01:12:12For example, Georgia
01:12:14without culture,
01:12:16the whole idea of a Georgian
01:12:18is very much
01:12:20based on a cultural identity.
01:12:22So there is
01:12:26hardly a country,
01:12:28that is still
01:12:30to be discussed,
01:12:32but without culture
01:12:34there is no nation,
01:12:36there is no country,
01:12:38there is no Europe, nothing.
01:12:40Not even America,
01:12:42of course they would like to abolish culture,
01:12:44but I mean,
01:12:46what else would they have?
01:12:50Not much left.
01:12:52Colored hair.
01:12:56Also culture, come on.
01:13:00Well, then
01:13:02we close it
01:13:04with the colored hair.
01:13:06We close it
01:13:08and there is
01:13:10Business & Newsletter,
01:13:12you can also
01:13:14get information
01:13:16about AI,
01:13:18which is now so good,
01:13:20that you get everything
01:13:22that is going on.
01:13:24Just type in Daniel Baumann
01:13:26and you get the thing.
01:13:28Thank you very much, Daniel.
01:13:30Thank you very much for listening.