Let's Talk Trainers Podcast

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Transcript

00:00:00I'm Christina Bosnakis and I'm Gabby Gaudet and you're listening to the TDM's Let's Talk.

00:00:05Welcome back to another edition of Let's Talk.

00:00:08We're already on to episode four and really excited about this one, Christina.

00:00:12We've got three very interesting trainers on board today.

00:00:17And very opinionated trainers too, which we always love.

00:00:21We had David Dank from New York.

00:00:23He's been in New York for many, many years and really a pleasure to have him on and as

00:00:29well as Ron Moquette from the Midwest and we had Brad Cox fresh off of a wonderful campaign

00:00:36with Nick's Go in 2021, likely horse of the year.

00:00:40So this is a great episode.

00:00:41You're not going to want to miss it.

00:00:43I'm going to go to David first.

00:00:46And David, I had a bit of a fangirl moment when I realized that you were an assistant

00:00:51for a given time to Woody Stevens.

00:00:54He's in the Hall of Fame.

00:00:55Tremendous horseman.

00:00:56I just like that era I got into racing, which really excites me because it really got my

00:01:01juices flowing for horse racing.

00:01:04So tell me a little bit, maybe you can give us a bit of a perspective.

00:01:09Woody was really, he seemed to be the epitome of that consummate old school horseman.

00:01:16And from that era, fast forward to now, what are the differences between trainers that

00:01:23were training at that time versus now?

00:01:26Well, obviously, you know, one of the biggest changes is the size of staples.

00:01:34You know, when I worked for Woody, you know, he was stable in barn three and four at Belmont

00:01:39if you were there and we had a total of 36 horses, you know, that was it.

00:01:43So that was the size of the stable.

00:01:45It changed then when Wayne was there, he was the first one with multiple stables and, you

00:01:54know, with over a hundred horses.

00:01:55So, you know, but things change in our world.

00:01:59So it's not a bad thing.

00:02:01It just, things evolve and then things change.

00:02:04So you know, that's kind of the biggest change from, you know, that's 35 years ago.

00:02:10So that's a while ago.

00:02:13But, you know, today there's, you know, there's a lot of, there's a lot more challenges today

00:02:20than there were back then.

00:02:21You had private stables back then, things changed in the 80s with the tax laws.

00:02:27So, you know, today, you know, my speech is, you are the president and CEO of your own

00:02:33company.

00:02:36It's been a difficult change for a lot of people to look at their self.

00:02:41You're not just a trainer, you're not just a horseman, you're a business owner.

00:02:46And it doesn't matter what kind of business or industry there is in this country or in

00:02:50the world.

00:02:51You know, you're, there's a lot of things, a lot of obligations, a lot of rules and regulations

00:02:56that you need to understand.

00:02:59And again, I always fall back, you are the president and CEO of your own company.

00:03:02So it's going to come back to you.

00:03:03So there's a lot to understand to run a business.

00:03:07So it is a bit more business-like than just being a trainer.

00:03:12And you guys can pick up on that, like how, for both Ron and you, Brad, like, how do you

00:03:16guys, how do you guys kind of manage both sides of that?

00:03:22I'm not, I'm not quite as, you know, as advanced in my career as Mr. David and I've been here

00:03:32a little longer than Brad, but I can see that it changes.

00:03:35And the thing that I would say is that some of the stuff, when I first came in the game

00:03:42is almost obsolete now.

00:03:45The day where the horse trainer stays, stays at the barn all day and holds his own horses

00:03:52in the foot tubs and does all that stuff.

00:03:55And that's gone because that guy's out of business.

00:03:59If you're not marketing yourself, if you're not representing yourself, then it doesn't

00:04:03matter how good a horseman you are.

00:04:04You don't get any horses.

00:04:06You have to be very good at, at attracting new owners because eventually your owners

00:04:15go away.

00:04:16They all do.

00:04:17You know, we all got to die, move, something.

00:04:20But if you're not attracting owners, then the last horse you had for that owner may

00:04:24be the last horse you had.

00:04:27And you know, we used to say there was grandstand trainers.

00:04:31There was, there was backside trainers.

00:04:33There's jocks that turned into horsemen.

00:04:36There's all kinds of different ways and it all works.

00:04:39But nowadays, if you're not somewhere getting the next, you're only as good as the horse

00:04:46you have in your barn.

00:04:47And I've seen a lot of really good horsemen displaced in this industry because they were

00:04:52just not very good at promoting or not as good at promoting as they are at caretaking

00:04:56for horses.

00:04:58And we also kind of changed the narrative of what is success in the last 20 years.

00:05:05I'd say it went from, you know, this guy claims a horse for $7,500 and he took it up the ladder

00:05:13to $30,000 to this one bought a horse for $100,000 and won for maiden 20's first out.

00:05:21The accolades given on those and not given on those in some cases is what kind of determines

00:05:28who gets the horses.

00:05:31And you know, I think that people that understand what the market is wanting is the people that's

00:05:36in business.

00:05:37And if you don't evolve a little, then you're out of business.

00:05:41I think one of the things I've noticed about Brad, and I haven't been around Mr. David

00:05:45as much, but Brad is very good at organization for a big outfit, really good at organization.

00:05:54His horses all look good.

00:05:55So I know they're getting the care.

00:05:57And he's the best I've ever seen at managing expectations.

00:06:03If he's got a horse that he thinks is a nice, nice allowance horse that is maybe these people,

00:06:09this ownership group is just interested in stakes, then he lets them know, look, we're

00:06:14going to win a couple of races, and we're going to let this horse go be the big horse

00:06:18in someone else's barn.

00:06:20That is just as valuable of an asset or a tool as being able to see a runner out in

00:06:26the middle of a paddock and taking it and developing it.

00:06:30And I really applaud him for that part of it.

00:06:34And I think that's a part that a lot of us guys that are tweeners that, you know, we

00:06:39need to learn is you better manage that expectations.

00:06:42The quicker you figure out where a horse belongs and get it there, the better you and

00:06:47your owner will be in the long run.

00:06:50Brad, the one thing I'm going to, I really am interested in asking you because you've

00:06:55had your license, your trainer's license for, I think it's almost 20 years now, right?

00:07:01And that long.

00:07:02Well, I want to be honest.

00:07:05I'm going to be honest.

00:07:06I didn't realize you had been training that long.

00:07:09The only reason being that, and again, it's just simply because when I heard 20 years,

00:07:16I'm like, wow, first of all, I don't think that you don't seem to be old enough to have

00:07:20been training that long.

00:07:21And secondly, I just felt like really in the last, I would say in the last, let's say 10,

00:07:27definitely within the last 10 years, within the last eight years, you really came to,

00:07:33went to another level, if it's fair to say.

00:07:35So can you tell us a little bit, just touching upon what we were talking about with David

00:07:40and Ron just a minute ago in terms of that business aspect and then the importance and

00:07:45in the evolution of your operation specifically, how has your operation evolved in the last

00:07:5120 years?

00:07:53Well, I've been trying to run at 17, but yeah, it's, it's, it's changed a tremendous amount.

00:08:01And I think it goes back to like what Ron just said about trainers, you know, holding

00:08:06horses and ice, foot tub, ice tub, whatever it may be, walking your own horses to and

00:08:11from the track, you know, in the beginning, I think most everybody starting out has to

00:08:16do that.

00:08:17And, and I think those are, you know, what you, you know, horsemanship skills.

00:08:21I mean, I walked, I rubbed horses for years, form and assistance.

00:08:25So, I mean, I, I started obviously at the bottom and, you know, learned all the basics

00:08:29of horsemanship, you know, just, you know, how to tack horses up, you know, grooming,

00:08:35doing everything.

00:08:36There's, there's a right way and a wrong way to do everything, attention to detail, I think

00:08:39is what separates a lot of people.

00:08:42So you know, obviously started out small and, you know, things have evolved for the good

00:08:47for our stable and our business.

00:08:49And, you know, like David said, you know, things change.

00:08:54Technology plays a huge role in, I think, letting people know gamblers, owners, whoever

00:09:01it may be, you know, who's doing well, who's maybe not doing as well.

00:09:05And once again, you know, a lot of this may be based off of, you know, people, you know,

00:09:10judge you on how well you're doing based off of a percentage.

00:09:13But I've always thought, you know, like your win percentage, somewhat like a batting average

00:09:17in baseball.

00:09:18It's really no difference.

00:09:21You know, you know, you, you might be batting 350 or winning at 20, 25%.

00:09:28You know, I think you do have to keep your numbers up.

00:09:31And a biggest thing with me, you know, I've raced at Oakland in the winter, and I say

00:09:35Oakland in the winter, fairgrounds, and I use those tracks because, you know, you start

00:09:39your year, every year starts over January 1, New Year.

00:09:43I think it's very important to stay relative throughout the year on, you know, really we're

00:09:48as a stable, we don't necessarily point for one meet.

00:09:50We try to stay relative, active, running horses in the condition they belong in, try to have

00:09:57them fit ready and ready to perform.

00:10:00So it's, it's definitely changed a lot over the years.

00:10:03But you know, the one thing is, you know, you have to try to be active and, you know,

00:10:10if you're trying to build your stable, you know, everybody's different, you know, just

00:10:13like, I mean, I started with just a handful of horses.

00:10:16And like you said, I have been training much longer than a lot of people expect, or expected

00:10:21if you look at our stats, and, you know, we struggled for a long time.

00:10:25You know, it's like I tell people, you know, people say, Oh, where'd he come from?

00:10:28Well, you know, people weren't interested in me when I was running in the 10th race

00:10:32at Turf Way Park on a Friday night at 1030.

00:10:34There was no, you know, TDN reporters asking me, you know, how my horse ran or how he came

00:10:44out of it.

00:10:45So, you know, obviously, with when you take it to a different level, it, you know, you

00:10:50get a different crowd and, you know, you get some exposure and, you know, you just try

00:10:55to build off of it if you're trying to build your stable.

00:10:58So you, Brad, you mentioned building your stable, and anybody can answer this question,

00:11:03but I, so obviously, like, you can have, think of this scenario, right?

00:11:10You have your trainer, you've got 25 horses, and you're feeling really good about yourself

00:11:15because you've got those 25 horses now.

00:11:19And the winter comes around, and you need to find a place to go, you're getting pressure

00:11:24from your owners to go to two separate locations.

00:11:26You have your 25 horses, and the fairgrounds only gives you 10 stalls, or Oakland only

00:11:32gives you 10 stalls.

00:11:34Do you think racetracks sometime make it difficult for people, trainers, to grow?

00:11:45Is that the right type of process that we should have as an industry?

00:11:50And I'm just curious, anecdotally, too, with any of you guys, if you, like, what that transition

00:11:55was like, if you had experience going from, like, what do you do when you have 25 horses

00:12:01and they only allot you 10 stalls?

00:12:03Yeah, it's tough, and especially, it's very, very tough in the wintertime.

00:12:08I do think racetracks try to limit your numbers because they do want horses spread out, or

00:12:16they want the horses spread out throughout other trainers.

00:12:19But you know, listen, I don't think, I think there's a lot of trainers, I mean, maybe not

00:12:23a lot, but I think there's, I think there probably are a lot that are content with the

00:12:27number they have.

00:12:28They may want some more, but you know, they may not want to increase their payroll or

00:12:32take the chance of, you know, picking up some horses that maybe they don't feel like they

00:12:38want to waste their time with.

00:12:40But I think racetracks do obviously limit trainers in regards to how many horses they

00:12:45can have on a backside.

00:12:47So that is a little bit of an obstacle, and it can be challenging.

00:12:52But listen, I can remember being split between Oaklawn and the fairgrounds a winter or so

00:13:00where I had maybe 15 horses at Oaklawn and a half a dozen at the fairgrounds.

00:13:04And you know, that doesn't really make sense from a dollar and cents standpoint.

00:13:10But you know, sometimes you have to lose a little money, I think, maybe to get ahead

00:13:15and, you know, keep and retain the horses you have and run them in the right spots to

00:13:20be competitive and keep winning.

00:13:23So there was someone trying to get started and grow their business.

00:13:29I think there's going to be some times where, you know, it doesn't make sense from a payroll

00:13:33standpoint or an expense standpoint, but you just got to bite the bullet and hopefully

00:13:37get through it because it can be very challenging.

00:13:41Obviously my situation is different, but you know, Brad's right, it's Gabby to your

00:13:45point.

00:13:46I think it's challenging for the young person.

00:13:48So I think that's what's key in our sport to evolve is, you know, a lot of younger people

00:13:55getting the opportunity to.

00:13:58I think it's also where do you want to go, where do you want to be, what is your model?

00:14:04My model is not going to work for everyone or a lot of people, I would say.

00:14:10And again, it's going to come down to clients, you know, what kind of clients, what kind

00:14:13of loyalty, you know, I've been really lucky.

00:14:17I've got a bunch of clients I've had over 25 years.

00:14:20So I'm in a different position because I'm older and I don't want to say I'm setting

00:14:25my ways, but I've positioned myself for a long time to be where I'm at.

00:14:32But it is a challenge for someone that's in the Midwest, you know, where do you go?

00:14:37Do you go to the fairgrounds?

00:14:38Do you go to Oakland?

00:14:39Do you go to Florida?

00:14:41Sometimes it's rapport, who do you have a rapport with?

00:14:44Where can you get the stalls?

00:14:45Where do your horses fit?

00:14:47So it's a big challenge.

00:14:51You know, a lot of times in life, it's not always what you know, but who you know.

00:14:55So but it's, you know, people maybe also to be a trainer, don't expect to get too far

00:15:04too soon.

00:15:06You'll if you know, you'll earn your way, reputation, business, like any other business.

00:15:11I always say, you know, we're a trainer, we're an employer.

00:15:15When you're an employee, you work 40 hours a week.

00:15:17When you're an employer, you work 80 hours a week.

00:15:19So you know, how much do you want to do it?

00:15:23Bottom line is, do you love it?

00:15:25So I mean, to do this, it's like being a farmer.

00:15:29I grew up on a farm, you know, you better love it.

00:15:32And I use the analogy with my kids, find something in your life you like to do.

00:15:37If you find something you love to do, you have a chance to be successful.

00:15:42And you know, I'll say Ron and Brad are extremely successful.

00:15:46I'm sure that's why we do it seven days a week.

00:15:49But it's a challenge for the younger person.

00:15:52You know, the problem that I had with breaking in to the industry at all, especially was

00:15:59what you guys touched on as far as getting the stalls and not knowing anyone.

00:16:03You know, I come from a place of blue ribbon downs where we did match racing.

00:16:08And then we did, you know, my first race was for $1,000 made in special aid.

00:16:14That's the first race I ever won.

00:16:16And when I tried to go to Kentucky, I ran horses in Kentucky for, I think,

00:16:21five years at Churchill before I ever got my first stall.

00:16:24And I had the extra expense of stabling somewhere where I was paying stall rent

00:16:30and coming over and running.

00:16:32And I kept on thinking, you know, asking the powers that be,

00:16:35what do you got to do to get stalls, please?

00:16:37And, you know, apply next year, you'll get them next year.

00:16:40And, you know, it was kind of hard to get in for me.

00:16:43And then I saw it was naturally easier for other people, but that's okay.

00:16:47I mean, you know, the reason I used to get a hard time from Ben Huffman,

00:16:52he always said that, well, you're Oaklawn's boy.

00:16:55You're, you know, you're Oaklawn's boy.

00:16:57I know you're, you know, the guy from New Orleans didn't even give me stalls last year

00:17:01because he said, I know your focus is Oaklawn.

00:17:03You're not going to give us a fair shake.

00:17:07And I was like, huh, okay, well, here's the reason.

00:17:11I went to Kentucky for seven years, tried to break in, and ended up getting four stalls

00:17:16and losing the majority of my clients to people that wanted to run in Kentucky

00:17:20because I couldn't get stables.

00:17:22And Oaklawn, when I come there, they said, look, we may have to put you

00:17:26in three separate barns, but we're going to give you 10 stalls the first year.

00:17:30I was there with Al Stahl on one side and Tom Lamas on the other.

00:17:34And we were in the back.

00:17:35It was actually the pony barn.

00:17:37And I thought, it doesn't matter.

00:17:39We're here.

00:17:40We're all here.

00:17:41We made it.

00:17:42You know, we're inside.

00:17:43And I felt like that's where the loyalty for Oaklawn started was, for me,

00:17:49was they were the first ones to go out on a limb and say, let's give this hillbilly

00:17:53from Blue Ribbon Downs stalls.

00:17:57And it really helped me because then I got a couple of people from my hometown

00:18:01that had some money that sent me a couple more horses.

00:18:04And that's where you had to have somebody go out on a limb and say,

00:18:08this group of people is worth having their horses on the grounds.

00:18:14Well, because I think the politics, what I'm hearing,

00:18:17there's an element of politics to all of this.

00:18:20And so already when you're starting out, you probably don't have a lot of horses.

00:18:26You're not starting with a lot of horses.

00:18:28You may not have a whole lot of owners.

00:18:29You may have two, three owners that are going to be there to support you early on.

00:18:35And it already becomes, it's already an issue from the beginning because your horses

00:18:40might be split.

00:18:41It costs more money to do that.

00:18:42You've got to split your staff, I would assume, also while you're doing that.

00:18:46And so there is an element.

00:18:47It sounds like there's a political thing.

00:18:49But I'm guessing, and maybe one of you can tell us, like 20, 30, 40 years ago,

00:18:57was this the issue or was it a different landscape because you were pretty much

00:19:00staying at the same track year round?

00:19:03What was it like, let's say, in the 80s?

00:19:08These guys aren't old enough, maybe, to be in the 80s.

00:19:10I was in school.

00:19:13I mean, it was tougher then.

00:19:16I love that answer.

00:19:18Gabby wasn't warning you.

00:19:21You know, like in New York, listen, it was a tough place to get stalls.

00:19:27You know, it is a 180 now.

00:19:32You know, New York intimidates people.

00:19:35Costs have, some costs have come down, workman's comp and stuff.

00:19:39There are advantages in New York.

00:19:42But listen, stalls are available.

00:19:45So it is a little harder in the summertime.

00:19:47But not as many people come.

00:19:49But the horse population is a lot less.

00:19:51So in the 80s, it was a lot tougher.

00:19:56And when we all started out, when we were younger.

00:19:58So the younger person, at least in New York, it's not as difficult.

00:20:03We're seeing some young people come up.

00:20:07You know, Michelle and, you know, a couple of people,

00:20:09Natalie, a couple of girls have been successful.

00:20:12It's great to see get started.

00:20:14And, you know, hopefully they get a little support.

00:20:16But, you know, for the East Coast, it was a lot tougher in the 80s.

00:20:23David, we're talking about since we're on New York.

00:20:25And you mentioned you touched on a couple of things in terms of horseman's comp.

00:20:30Obviously, the labor laws in New York are particularly they've been in the news.

00:20:36We've heard about it.

00:20:37We've heard, you know, several trainers have been affected by it negatively

00:20:43over the course of the last year or two.

00:20:45And tell me a little bit some of the difficulties, because in my mind,

00:20:50I asked the question really naively the other day to one of my colleagues.

00:20:53And I said, we're dealing with horses.

00:20:55This is not a nine to five job, right?

00:20:57These are animals.

00:20:59And so to have this idea that people punch in on a clock, punch out on a clock,

00:21:04and then your work is over, that doesn't really happen.

00:21:07So tell us a little bit.

00:21:08Just kind of summarize for us what's happening in New York

00:21:13and some of the issues with the labor laws.

00:21:16Yeah, well, listen, this started about 12 years ago.

00:21:20So this really isn't that new.

00:21:23It started out.

00:21:24We're forewarned in Saratoga that the labor board was going to come to the track.

00:21:31They held seminars on two consecutive Tuesdays in the fall.

00:21:37And I can tell you that everyone in October, probably like October or November,

00:21:44everyone got a certified letter requesting documentation for January 1st till October 1st.

00:21:53And I can remember that well.

00:21:55So everyone basically got audited.

00:21:58This is at least 12 years ago.

00:22:01So basically, the labor board came in and they wrote their own handbook for us.

00:22:07Unfortunately, I saw an article recently with a trainer that got fined and mentioned,

00:22:14you know, we are not considered agriculture.

00:22:17And I don't know in other states, in the state of New York,

00:22:2250 hours is considered normal.

00:22:24It's not overtime, not 40.

00:22:26So, you know, basically, they came in.

00:22:29I think they initially thought we weren't paying enough.

00:22:33And then I think they were satisfied that way.

00:22:36But, you know, they wanted us to calculate actual hours.

00:22:41It had been done previously in California.

00:22:43So, listen, you're right.

00:22:47So in that aspect, the game has changed drastically from the 80s to now.

00:22:52You need to run it as a business.

00:22:55You need to calculate, be fairly accurate on your hours.

00:23:01And part of that is calculating overtime.

00:23:04And obviously, in the state of New York, minimum wage is now $15.

00:23:09Overtime is $22.50.

00:23:12And then there's split wage.

00:23:14I'm a little different because I do my own books.

00:23:17I like to do bookkeeping.

00:23:20I do my own payroll.

00:23:21But it's a huge challenge for people.

00:23:27Even if you don't do it yourself, you need to understand it.

00:23:29So, yeah, it is a different way of...

00:23:32They're talking about holding the horse in the ice tub and this and that.

00:23:35It's like, that guy's on the clock, you know?

00:23:37Or, listen, you know, if they're hanging around the barn until one o'clock,

00:23:43we used to, whatever, that's really not done anymore.

00:23:46You know, because everybody's on the clock.

00:23:48So it's a disappointing part of what we do, I think.

00:23:55You know, used to be maybe you didn't get days off.

00:23:59You do get days off.

00:24:00If I have a lot of help, some of my grooms are on a five-day schedule.

00:24:04So it's easy to keep hours down.

00:24:08So, yeah, it's a big challenge.

00:24:12I don't know if you'll see it everywhere in the future.

00:24:17But, you know, if you're in New York, you need to be aware of it, understand of it.

00:24:22A lot of the issues that guys got into also were immigration.

00:24:25So I'm greatly involved the last 25 years in immigration, do a lot of visa work.

00:24:32So it's the same thing.

00:24:34And there's these rules and regulations.

00:24:37They tell you what you have to do, and you need to follow them.

00:24:42Can I jump in there with one of the things that I would like to attack, kind of,

00:24:50is the perception that trainers are just getting filthy rich.

00:24:57Every time someone says something about, you know.

00:25:00I like how everyone giggled with that comment, Ron.

00:25:03I mean, OK, I started like Brad and like David.

00:25:10I started at the bottom.

00:25:11And when I moved to the racetrack, the first time coming to a move to Oakland Park,

00:25:19they give me a tax room.

00:25:21It was in track robberies, Tech Room C.

00:25:23That's where I lived the first year that I worked here.

00:25:26I've made $185 a week.

00:25:29And I know we're talking about, you know, there's dinosaurs roaming and whatever.

00:25:33But I made $185 a week.

00:25:38And if you looked at my clock that I did, I promise you, I was there for the love.

00:25:44It wasn't the money.

00:25:45And I worked my way up and kept working my way up to a groom that made $300.

00:25:51And then if you clipped horses, if you clipped your own horses,

00:25:54which we were allowed to do, then you made $30.

00:25:57And if you held horses for a blacksmith, you know, I was hauling feed, hay.

00:26:02I was doing everything I could.

00:26:04And then I thought, well, when I make it to be a trainer, it's going to get good then.

00:26:09That's when I make the money.

00:26:10I don't mind sacrificing down here because when I get up there,

00:26:14I worked for Barney Flint for a little bit.

00:26:16And I saw he drove a Lexus.

00:26:17I mean, holy Lord, that's awesome for me.

00:26:21And the first time that I started paying people and I wanted to pay people,

00:26:27everything they were worth, and I did it.

00:26:30And I was very proud of that.

00:26:31And I noticed that my first three years of training, I lost $172,000.

00:26:39I lost $172,000.

00:26:42Now everybody compares this to other industries.

00:26:46I don't know of anybody that would work the hours that a trainer does

00:26:52and sign up to lose that much money and still have people tell you that

00:26:56you're cheating your health or whatever.

00:26:59The perception that, you know, I'm not saying that there's a 1%, okay?

00:27:05The 1% is what everybody talks about is the ones that are super duper highly successful.

00:27:11And they're not breathing the same air as the rest of the people.

00:27:16And everybody's trying to get to that rare air.

00:27:22But you would think if you ever got on social media, and I don't recommend it,

00:27:26whenever one of these things happen,

00:27:29they think that every trainer is taking advantage of their help.

00:27:33And it's just not true.

00:27:35Now, do some pay better than others?

00:27:37Yes.

00:27:38That's why they get better help.

00:27:40And some, you know, but everybody's evolved over the last 12 years, for sure.

00:27:46But before that, we've all started, I wouldn't treat anybody like I was treated.

00:27:51No, and, but I also know that I weeded out who wanted to be there very quickly,

00:27:57because I come in there with a group of guys that all come with me.

00:28:01And they're all, you know, one of them's waiting tables in a nice restaurant.

00:28:05The other one's an assistant coach in his third career.

00:28:07I mean, they're all doing other things, because they couldn't stomach

00:28:11what we had to go through to get to where we're at.

00:28:13I just don't like the perception.

00:28:15That's, that's basically an unprotected perception,

00:28:19that trainers are just filthy rich and taking advantage of everyone.

00:28:23Because that's, that's so not the case.

00:28:27Well, I mean, Brad, you're likely going to be champion trainer once again.

00:28:33I mean, is it all sunshine and rainbows?

00:28:36Can you kind of speak a little bit more to that?

00:28:39Mostly thunderstorms.

00:28:42No, no, you know, in regards to the labor issues, you know, it is tough in New York.

00:28:46It's very, very tough.

00:28:47It's very regulated.

00:28:48You know, we have a time clock there.

00:28:50We're in the process this year of putting them in at, on our Kentucky circuit.

00:28:56Because I do think it's, as David stated earlier, it's going to come down to where

00:29:00I think at some point, you know, these labor boards are going to

00:29:04monitor everything we do everywhere.

00:29:06Not just New York, but it is very strict in New York.

00:29:08I actually had horses in New York until December of this past year, 2021.

00:29:15For four and a half years, it was the one state that I was in with a horse.

00:29:22Over, let's just say the last five years, Kentucky, I would eventually pull out of

00:29:26Kentucky completely in the winters.

00:29:28You know, Turfway kind of filled that gap with New York.

00:29:31You know, that had a lot to do with it.

00:29:32Just the rates that we're having to pay in New York, the overtime.

00:29:36And, you know, it does change things up.

00:29:38You know, like David said, you know, when I was coming up as a groom, a hot walker,

00:29:42whatever, you know, you would feed in the afternoons and you would just hang out at

00:29:46the barn, roll bandages.

00:29:48You know, you may hang out to 536 o'clock at night, you know, just go home because

00:29:52you enjoyed being at the barn.

00:29:53Now, it's like as soon as 430 hits in the afternoon, it's a ghost town.

00:29:58Everybody's just gone.

00:29:59You know, they punch a time clock.

00:30:01It's like it's almost like working in a factory in New York.

00:30:04It's really strange and odd.

00:30:07But that's just the way that, you know, the labor boards created it.

00:30:11And that's the way I say it's going to be that way from now on.

00:30:14So it definitely turned into more of a job where guys are, you know, on the clock, just

00:30:21like in a factory.

00:30:23They know they have to work till 10, 1030.

00:30:25And once they punch the time clock, they're out of there.

00:30:28And that wasn't I don't feel like that was the case, you know, 15, 20 years ago at all.

00:30:33People enjoyed being at the barn.

00:30:34And I'm not saying these guys today don't enjoy being at the barn, but not like it used

00:30:38to be.

00:30:39There's definitely people that had a little bit more, I would say, love for the horse,

00:30:42passion for the game, passion for their work, as opposed to just collecting a check at the

00:30:46end of the week.

00:30:48Brad, the one thing I want to go to the second part that Ron was just talking about just

00:30:53a minute ago is that that perception that people have.

00:30:57And I think you're really in a great position to answer this question because you obviously

00:31:03have experienced both sides of it.

00:31:05You started out early years, as you pointed out, you know, you had horses, you know, maybe

00:31:11at some smaller tracks and some, you know, smaller races, smaller purses.

00:31:16So you experience that side of it and that struggle.

00:31:18But now, obviously, you've been you've had the tremendous horses in recent times.

00:31:23And, you know, the success has come.

00:31:27Is it really our perception that, oh, especially the guys that are at the upper echelon of

00:31:33training, they're just rolling, they're just on easy street?

00:31:38Because obviously, I'm assuming you have you have bigger like you have a lot more staff.

00:31:43You have people you got to pay.

00:31:44You got a lot more expenses, too.

00:31:45So tell us a little bit about people's perception that because you are one of the top trainers,

00:31:53certainly in this country, that it's just really easy for you.

00:31:57No, there's nothing easy about this.

00:32:00And like David said, I mean, it's a tremendous amount of work.

00:32:04You know, I have younger people come to work for me.

00:32:06And like you said, the perception, oh, this is easy.

00:32:10Well, you know, I think everybody or there's a lot of people that think, oh, well, I could

00:32:14do this.

00:32:14They can do it for maybe a week.

00:32:15They can maybe do it two weeks, but then get into week, maybe three, no days off on the

00:32:22phone, basically, from the time you're finished training for the next two, three hours.

00:32:26I mean, listen, I apologize.

00:32:27I was 10 minutes late on this interview because I was on the phone with owners that I had

00:32:31to take care of business.

00:32:33It's nonstop.

00:32:35Horses get hurt.

00:32:37You have to make those phone calls.

00:32:39Horses go into the clinic for, you know, just issues, whether it's colic or chips in an

00:32:46ankle or whatever it may be.

00:32:47But it's a nonstop 24 hours a day, seven days a week job that listen, the bottom line, I

00:32:55always say the reason we continue to come back and do this every single day is because

00:33:00the highs outweigh the lows.

00:33:02There's so many more lows.

00:33:04I mean, that's just the way it is.

00:33:07I mean, with so many horses in training, there's, you know, there's going to be things happening

00:33:11every day that's not good.

00:33:13But the thrill of winning at a high level or winning period, but especially at a high

00:33:18level, the thrill you get, the satisfaction you get being a part of a very good horse

00:33:24is just it's a thrill that like no other.

00:33:26And that's why that's why I think we keep doing this in regards for the trainers.

00:33:31I mean, it's just but it's tough, but it's there's nothing easy about this.

00:33:35And anybody wants to sign up and give it, you know, go for good luck.

00:33:40And, you know, it'll work out for some people, but most it's not.

00:33:44I really think that, you know, a perfect example, Saturdays and Sundays for a trainer, it's

00:33:51their busiest day.

00:33:52It's their busiest day.

00:33:53That's where the general public, the workforce of America, that's their easy days.

00:33:58They they're off Saturday, Sunday.

00:34:00That's not that's not our that's not the case with us.

00:34:04That's when it's showtime for us.

00:34:05Lots of times is on Saturdays and Sundays.

00:34:07We work.

00:34:08We may have some downtime on Saturday and I'm sorry, on Mondays and Tuesdays.

00:34:12But for the most part, our weekends, there's not such thing as a weekend for a horse trainer.

00:34:17Not not a weekend at all.

00:34:18And I mean, you know, we miss out on a lot.

00:34:19I mean, I miss out a lot with with my boys growing up.

00:34:23And, you know, I have a six year old now that, you know, I'm not around that much in the

00:34:28winter.

00:34:28And it's very hard, but you just learn to deal with it, manage it the best you can.

00:34:33He's been on an airplane.

00:34:35He's on an airplane twice a month.

00:34:37So it's it's very challenging.

00:34:40It's very challenging for your your family, especially with the moving.

00:34:43And it's it's definitely nothing easy about this is very demanding.

00:34:48A fascinating conversation from our guest, Christina.

00:34:52But we're going to take a little bit of a pause to thank our sponsors at First Racing.

00:34:56They already had the Pegasus World Cup and it was sensational.

00:35:00But there are a couple of big days on the calendar coming up as well, including at Gulfstream.

00:35:05Gulfstream always during this time of year is loaded.

00:35:08We also came out of the Holy Bull, which was a fantastic race.

00:35:12And now going into such a big weekend, it seems like every big weekend is a big weekend

00:35:16at Gulfstream, doesn't it?

00:35:17And after the Holy Bull, we've got the Fountain of Youth.

00:35:20And, you know, it's really important to know the Fountain of Youth.

00:35:23And also they have the Devona Dale on the same day.

00:35:26Really, those are classic stepping stones, races that are going we're going to see where

00:35:32we typically see horses that go on to the Triple Crown, go on to the Kentucky Derby,

00:35:37the Preakness, the Belmont, of course.

00:35:39But it's really exciting racing at Gulfstream.

00:35:42I'm down in Florida.

00:35:43We get I get to enjoy, but we all get to enjoy it, really.

00:35:46Great, great racing.

00:35:47But Gabby, it's not only at Gulfstream that there's big racing on March 5th.

00:35:51I feel like there's so much focus on the three-year-old prep races at first racing

00:35:57tracks, whether it be Gulfstream.

00:35:58We've had several Derby winners come out of South Florida, but we've also had several

00:36:03Derby winners come out of Santa Anita.

00:36:05And March 5th is also going to be a big day at Santa Anita.

00:36:08It's going to be San Felipe Stakes Day, but also Santa Anita Handicap Day.

00:36:13There's going to be three grade ones on the card.

00:36:15And the Phillies race, the three-year-old Phillies race, will be on Sunday as well.

00:36:20So a superstar weekend at Santa Anita on March 5th, as well as at Gulfstream.

00:36:26We hope you tune in.

00:36:29Brad, I think you brought up a really important part, because at least for me personally,

00:36:34I've got a baby that's going to be three months old February 12th.

00:36:40And Norm and I have sat down and tried to plan out what we're going to do for the next

00:36:45couple of months with my work, with his work.

00:36:49How are you supposed to be in all these different locations with a child?

00:36:53And then when they get to school age, that makes it even more difficult.

00:36:59And we've had conversations.

00:37:01I mentioned earlier, our first podcast was with Liz Crow, Christina Blacker, Ana Seitz.

00:37:06And we talked about women managing their careers, successful careers and family.

00:37:12But what about the men, that side of it too?

00:37:17This is a lifestyle.

00:37:19It is all consuming.

00:37:22All three of you have children.

00:37:23How has that been throughout your careers and the kind of like change throughout the years too?

00:37:31No, I mean, it's very challenging.

00:37:36My wife, Olivia, does a good job of coordinating flights, getting herself and Brody down to the

00:37:42fairgrounds or Hot Springs or wherever.

00:37:44They were actually here for the Pegasus this weekend.

00:37:45It was a quick trip.

00:37:46I didn't feel like I even got to see him much due to the fact, just so busy with Nixco.

00:37:52And we had a filly on the undercard.

00:37:54But it's very challenging.

00:37:57I think it takes, obviously, a spouse knows what they're getting into.

00:38:03And it's hard.

00:38:04I mean, I think that's another thing.

00:38:08When I am back home, honestly, taking Brody to school or picking him up from school is

00:38:14really kind of like, I mean, those are highlights to me.

00:38:17I mean, small things like that, that's how demanding this job is.

00:38:22That's how stressful it can be at times.

00:38:26And it's very, very challenging to make time for your family.

00:38:31And you just have to do it.

00:38:33I mean, it's crazy.

00:38:34Every summer, we try to go on a family vacation for a week.

00:38:37And the first thing Olivia will ask is, what weekend is the Belmont?

00:38:42What weekend is the stakes of Prairie Meadows?

00:38:46Or when do you go to Saratoga?

00:38:48So this past summer, we basically had to manage our vacation around Mandaloon, essential quality

00:38:56and horses of that caliber that you have to be there when they're going to run.

00:39:00And you want to be there.

00:39:01You're excited about that.

00:39:02And you're also excited about getting away for a few days as well.

00:39:05So it's challenging.

00:39:07But it all works out.

00:39:08You got to have a family.

00:39:09It's very understanding, for sure.

00:39:11Yeah.

00:39:12Like, listen, Brad has done a good job with it.

00:39:16Todd is a good friend of my example.

00:39:19Listen, they put their self in this high profile.

00:39:22They're very fortunate.

00:39:24Listen, they don't want to give it back.

00:39:26And so but obviously, you hope that your other half is the better half.

00:39:36And listen, I made a decision when my son was in fourth or fifth grade.

00:39:40We used to go to Florida for the winter, had a house there.

00:39:44We realized at some point that he needed to be probably best in one place.

00:39:49And that was going to be New York.

00:39:52So I stopped basically going to Florida.

00:39:55Took me a few years to filter that out.

00:39:57And just made a decision that I'm going to base myself in New York.

00:40:02And I lost one client that went on to be quite successful with the horses.

00:40:07And he had asked me point blank.

00:40:09And he said, are you sure that's what you want to do?

00:40:12And I said, yeah, I'm not going to Florida.

00:40:14And I said, listen, it's coming from here.

00:40:17I made a choice that the family was first.

00:40:20At the same time, financially, it changed because we did get slots in New York.

00:40:26And the money changed.

00:40:28So I look at it today.

00:40:29It's not economical for me to go to Florida the way my model is.

00:40:33But everyone has to find their own path.

00:40:37And for me, it was making a decision that the kids came first.

00:40:43I'm going to tell you the next 18 years are the greatest years of your life

00:40:47till they're gone off to college.

00:40:49And I'm glad I did it.

00:40:51Like Brad said, just being able to pick them up to school, do whatever.

00:40:56I mean, Belmont is a stone's throw away from my house.

00:41:00I didn't miss all that.

00:41:01Because one's living in Austin, Texas.

00:41:04And the other one's in Denver, Colorado.

00:41:06So I'm glad I got those years with them.

00:41:11And Ron, did you feel like you had a similar experience?

00:41:15Or you have a similar experience with your family?

00:41:18Well, whenever you make a choice of doing this for a living,

00:41:23you make a choice that other people are affected by.

00:41:26They didn't choose this career path that I did.

00:41:29But they're just as affected as I am.

00:41:32And luckily, I had better half.

00:41:37And they helped fill in my deficiencies.

00:41:44And the other thing is that my kids all love the sport.

00:41:47So whenever, any time that they could choose to do something

00:41:53or come see dad at horse races or whatever, they chose to come.

00:41:58And I was very, very lucky with that.

00:42:06I feel like I'm always trying to compensate and make up for things.

00:42:10But I was very proud of how many events that I was there at.

00:42:15And the fact that it wasn't easy, but it was worth it.

00:42:18And I think I hit the lottery.

00:42:22I'm proud of my kids.

00:42:23They're all outrunning their pedigree.

00:42:26So I'm tickled to death with what the finished product is.

00:42:31And I'm a granddad, five grandkids.

00:42:34So I've got, yeah.

00:42:38Such a young man like you and your granddad was.

00:42:41We didn't have cable.

00:42:44If or anything to do.

00:42:48But I've got awesome, awesome better half.

00:42:53My wife is the only person that's in the barn more than me.

00:42:57I mean, she's eight up as I am.

00:43:00So we're all affected by the same disease.

00:43:02And my sons are crazy about handicapping and watching the races.

00:43:09And if you saw our threads, you would think I was talking to a

00:43:13gambler or assistant.

00:43:14And Brad's the same way.

00:43:16I think his boys are super affected.

00:43:19And that's the coolest thing in the world.

00:43:21And the only bad thing is, is whenever you're around and maybe you don't run

00:43:26quite as good as you thought, your kids sometimes get hit with some friendly

00:43:30fire from some of the punters that are mad that the horse didn't run up to

00:43:35their betting expectations.

00:43:37I always feel bad for them.

00:43:38Like, you know, if they're sitting in my box, I hope that they don't hear a lot

00:43:42of, you know, heckles.

00:43:43If we run, you know, fourth is the favorite.

00:43:46But other than that, it's been pretty good.

00:43:49I just wanted to ask really quickly, you know, me, I grew up, my dad was a

00:43:55trainer.

00:43:56My mom kind of is right hand woman in the in the shed row.

00:44:01Sister's a trainer, husband trainer, on and on and on.

00:44:03But when I was young, I can remember dad inviting over trainers for dinner

00:44:11and just having there was so much camaraderie.

00:44:15And maybe that came from by the fact that he was a Mid-Atlantic trainer and

00:44:20he was in Maryland and, you know, a year round circuit and you established

00:44:23friends.

00:44:24But do you guys think that there is still that camaraderie amongst trainers

00:44:29nowadays?

00:44:30Or do you think it's just gotten so crazy competitive that you guys don't

00:44:34have those relationships anymore?

00:44:37I do.

00:44:39I mean, I still do.

00:44:41It is very competitive.

00:44:43And you want to, you know, I claimed a horse off Brad last week.

00:44:47And but I cheered for him like crazy in the in the, you know, in the

00:44:51Pegasus.

00:44:52We're we're competing, but I know what he goes through.

00:44:55So I'm on his side regardless.

00:44:57And but like you said, I we have a Tuesday lunch deal.

00:45:01We try to every every week.

00:45:03I used to have it with Lynn Whiting and Steve Hobby and occasionally other

00:45:08people who come too.

00:45:09But that's that's happened for 12, 15 years.

00:45:14You know, Asmussen's family is good, good friends with us.

00:45:19We play basketball together at my office and, you know, we go to eat lunch

00:45:24when we can and dinner when we can.

00:45:25So I think you're going to be, you know, open yourself up to a little

00:45:30kidding and whatever.

00:45:31And we we talk shop a little and I'll give him a hard time if he's like

00:45:36really, you had to run a horse with a ninety five bar speed figure to

00:45:39whip my ass or, you know, something like that.

00:45:41But, you know, it's you're going to have an opportunity to be around

00:45:48people that are going through the same exact thing you are and what, you

00:45:54know, good times makes, you know, makes acquaintances go through the

00:45:58same exact hard times, make friends.

00:46:01We've all been fired.

00:46:03We've all been taken advantage of.

00:46:04We've all been, you know, disrespected.

00:46:08So we got that.

00:46:09So we ought to be able to at least have that in common.

00:46:12If you the competitive freaky side of us can can always be put off for a

00:46:18little bit of time to appreciate the we all went through this togetherness

00:46:22that could be, you know.

00:46:25Yeah, Gabby, I don't know.

00:46:26I agree with you.

00:46:27It's different here in New York like now.

00:46:31She's most everyone that I'm friends with.

00:46:33They're not here.

00:46:34They've traveled.

00:46:35They're in different spots around the country.

00:46:38Probably the one place where we everyone tries to get together is

00:46:43Saratoga, which couldn't be any busier place from sunup to sundown.

00:46:48But, you know, that's kind of where everyone is together here.

00:46:52But, yeah, it's different, you know, here anyways.

00:46:57And that's because people move around.

00:46:59I think even probably like Brad, you know, he's it's a big operation.

00:47:02He's got multiple outfits.

00:47:05There's a lot on his table.

00:47:06And if he has a free time, he's got a wife and kids.

00:47:10So at the end of the day, they probably come first.

00:47:14Yeah, no, for sure.

00:47:15That's right.

00:47:16And, you know, the one thing I would say, too, though, you know, I do have some

00:47:21friends that don't work in the racetrack.

00:47:22And when I can get away with those guys and like maybe watch a football game,

00:47:26you know, it really does clear my mind.

00:47:28It does take me away from racing for maybe a few hours.

00:47:31Because if I'm just sitting at home and, you know, maybe watching the news or

00:47:35whatever, I mean, I do find that my iPads near I'm checking results, checking

00:47:40charge, looking at the form.

00:47:42So, I mean, it's something that is very hard to shut off.

00:47:44But when you can't get away from it for a few hours and just, you know, whatever,

00:47:48watch it, watch the the Chiefs-Fingals game or the late game last night.

00:47:54You know, it was it's it is something that can take your mind away from it.

00:47:59Just relax with some friends, have dinner, and it will take you away.

00:48:03Although Sam Houston was running some big races yesterday.

00:48:05So I wasn't completely taken away from it.

00:48:08But it is it is challenging to shut it off and and, you know, let it escape.

00:48:14And I think it is good to have some friends outside the track as well.

00:48:17That, you know, they have maybe lives that are a bit more normal.

00:48:23And it kind of maybe, you know, you can kind of see how they live.

00:48:25You know, once again, back to people that have weekends off where we don't.

00:48:31Yeah, it's a familiar scene.

00:48:32The the race on a phone at dinner like you can never shut off.

00:48:38I can't tell you how many times I've been at a dinner and a horse is running on a phone

00:48:43and you just you're cheering in public and it is what it is.

00:48:48And, you know, once again, that probably has a lot to do with the so-called super trainer.

00:48:54It goes right back to that where, listen, I can be eating dinner and watching a horse run

00:48:59at Indiana and then watching a horse run in New York.

00:49:02And I may be in the paddock at Churchill.

00:49:04So, I mean, that I think, you know, technology is obviously, you know, help super trainers grow.

00:49:11But listen, Dwayne Lucas didn't have that when he become the first super trainer.

00:49:14So if anybody wants to say super trainers are bad for the game, blame Dwayne Lucas.

00:49:19I love that.

00:49:23Not here, Brad.

00:49:24This is not here.

00:49:25This is like the biggest Dwayne Lucas fan.

00:49:27No, no.

00:49:30Nobody's going to say it.

00:49:31I didn't say it was bad, but no, no, no.

00:49:35Brad, you know, you said you said something that's really funny that just actually that

00:49:39made me think of that.

00:49:41You know, you have your friends that some of your friends are not racing people.

00:49:44And I do, too.

00:49:45And the flip side of that is I had one of my friends one year.

00:49:49She got married in Australia on Derby Day.

00:49:54And it was like the end of my life.

00:49:55Like when I found out because she was my best friend, she was one of my closest friends.

00:49:59So that I was going to go to Australia and miss the Kentucky Derby.

00:50:03I was like absolutely devastated.

00:50:06But it's one of those things.

00:50:07There's a flip side where you do.

00:50:09Like you were saying weekends.

00:50:11There are no weekends.

00:50:13Gabby can probably attest to that.

00:50:15I'm in the media horse racing.

00:50:17I work weekends, too.

00:50:19We're all weekend, you know, people.

00:50:21But the one question that I have for all of you that I think that kind of segues a little

00:50:25bit from what we were just talking about is we're talking about friends and family and

00:50:30all the people around us and all the people we trust.

00:50:33Now, the probably the the single other group that you guys have around you besides friends

00:50:41and family are owners.

00:50:43The importance of owners, the importance of having not only good owners, but owners that

00:50:49have stuck by you through thick and through thin through all of these years.

00:50:54But tell us a little bit like sometimes, you know, we'll hear in the news that, you know,

00:50:58sometimes there are some owners and I'm not going to point fingers because it doesn't

00:51:02even really matter who.

00:51:03But just that sometimes if trainers are not getting paid by owners, it can become a problem.

00:51:13Even if you're a successful operation, I would assume not getting that money to pay

00:51:18your staff and everybody else.

00:51:19It creates like a whole cascade of events.

00:51:22So if you guys can maybe just tell us a little bit about the importance of in terms of having

00:51:27those owners and having owners that also when you guys are taken care of, basically the

00:51:33effects that it has if owners are not paying bills.

00:51:35What happens to you guys and everybody, everybody underneath?

00:51:40And I love to jump in on this.

00:51:45I've been doing it a while.

00:51:46So listen, I yeah, you have two high profile owners in the last year, year and a half

00:51:55that we all know about.

00:51:57But they were notoriously bad pay for a long time that that didn't happen yesterday, a

00:52:05year ago, two years ago.

00:52:07You knew that.

00:52:08And I always felt bad when I saw someone like young starting out and had horses for them,

00:52:13like they're going to get screwed.

00:52:15I mean, it's just bottom line.

00:52:18Listen, I've been doing it a long time.

00:52:19I've been lucky.

00:52:20I got a lot of loyalty, a lot of great owners.

00:52:23I am adamant.

00:52:25I get calls all the time.

00:52:26Listen, I'm in New York.

00:52:27I don't have the best horses, a lot of New York Reds.

00:52:32A lot of they're all small time people.

00:52:34I don't have anybody that goes to the sales and spends a lot of money.

00:52:37But when I get someone new, I just tell them up front, I'm adamant about one thing.

00:52:45I get paid on time.

00:52:47And you either if you don't like it, then I certainly don't want that client.

00:52:52But listen, I put myself in a position that I don't need to have that person.

00:52:59I have enough on my plate that I'm comfortable with.

00:53:03But it is an issue.

00:53:04And I'm not sure why in the industry it hasn't been addressed.

00:53:08There hasn't been support from there are some jurisdictions.

00:53:12There are, I think, in Pennsylvania and California a little bit.

00:53:15But why there isn't support for people like that.

00:53:19It's no different than a bad vendor.

00:53:21It's no different than a trainer not paying their bills.

00:53:25So, yeah, it's an issue.

00:53:27It's always been a bit of an issue.

00:53:30I don't really have a problem.

00:53:32I can tell you today, I got a couple of people.

00:53:34They're a little bit slow, and I don't like it.

00:53:37And I don't know how long it'll go.

00:53:40But I don't have to have them.

00:53:43But there was a podcast on TDN, right?

00:53:48Which drew Malika and a couple of guys a couple of months ago.

00:53:53And they talked about that.

00:53:56And, you know, but it's interesting because I talked about

00:54:01we don't have contracts.

00:54:04Today, I don't need them.

00:54:06I'm in a stage in my life that I don't.

00:54:08You know, if I get to do this 10 more years.

00:54:11But, you know, is that an issue?

00:54:13And I use the analogy, when you go to the grocery store,

00:54:17they make you pay one form or another.

00:54:20So it's not rocket science.

00:54:22You know, there's nothing worse than a bad client won't pay.

00:54:25It doesn't matter how good their horse is.

00:54:27That doesn't matter because if you're not getting paid,

00:54:29you know, you have bills.

00:54:31And like we say in New York, it is more challenging.

00:54:34And, you know, back onto the speech of being a president, CEO,

00:54:37you know, you have your payroll, you have your federal,

00:54:40you'll have your state, you know, you have immigration costs.

00:54:43You know, whether you're paying quarterly or whatnot,

00:54:45you know, you, you know, the government doesn't care.

00:54:48You're going to pay.

00:54:49But yeah, there's nothing worse than having a bad paying client.

00:54:55Brad, I was going to say, Brad, do you think,

00:55:00is there something that you can add to that

00:55:02or anything, any different thought?

00:55:05No, I mean, it's, you know, we've had,

00:55:07we've had some clients beat us out of money before

00:55:09and probably never going to see it.

00:55:10And, you know, just come to grips with that.

00:55:13But, you know, I think like David said,

00:55:15there's been a couple of guys that have been in the news

00:55:17over the last couple of years.

00:55:18And, you know, the one thing it taught me is, you know,

00:55:23it did teach me to say no,

00:55:25because I had been approached by some people

00:55:27that were notorious for maybe not paying well

00:55:31or paying on time or even paying period.

00:55:33And, you know, I turned them down.

00:55:35I didn't want to get myself into something

00:55:36I'd already gotten into another client.

00:55:39And, you know, you know, that is the one thing about trainers.

00:55:42I mean, you did, or owners, you know,

00:55:45they have a reputation for being good pay, bad pay or slow pay.

00:55:49I always say slow is better than no,

00:55:52but, you know, you always, you always, you know,

00:55:55and it's and I think, look, like David said,

00:55:59the racetrack's a weird run.

00:56:01It's a weird run business.

00:56:02I mean, like we have hay, straw, feed delivered

00:56:04and we don't pay when it comes to the door.

00:56:06And we'll go to the tax shop.

00:56:08We'll buy things, purchase things

00:56:09and then pay at the end of the month.

00:56:11Therefore, you know, it is run a little weird.

00:56:14It's not, it's probably not run the way it should be.

00:56:17I think if we could pay up front

00:56:20and do things a little bit more like the real world,

00:56:22it would probably run a little smoother

00:56:24and it would probably weed out owners

00:56:26that are not paying the bills.

00:56:28Because I think it would put a lot more pressure on us

00:56:30to obviously crank down on these guys to get them to pay.

00:56:33But for the most part, I feel like, you know,

00:56:35most of my guys are pretty good in regards to paying on time.

00:56:40Well, the problem is, it seems like if one owner doesn't pay,

00:56:44you say, no, he'll go to the next guy.

00:56:46They'll say yes or no.

00:56:48They'll go to the next guy.

00:56:49And you never really wind up weeding this owner out.

00:56:52They just go to more vulnerable trainers

00:56:55who might not have the same type of cashflow.

00:56:58And they're relying on these owners

00:56:59that aren't necessarily paying.

00:57:02I've always had a thought that maybe the owners

00:57:04should be put on the racetrack.

00:57:06That if there are owners with outstanding bills,

00:57:10they're not allowed to enter horses.

00:57:12They're not allowed to run.

00:57:13And I mean, Ron, do you have any thoughts

00:57:16on how to maybe remedy this problem?

00:57:17Well, my wife does hunter jumpers.

00:57:22And I've got a client that does the, what is it?

00:57:30The deal where they do the fancy quarter horse stuff.

00:57:33And every one of those have to pay up front.

00:57:36We're the only industry I know of involving a horse

00:57:39that you don't pay up front.

00:57:41We sent my wife's thoroughbred.

00:57:44We're doing a makeover to go down to Florida.

00:57:48And we sent two months of training up front with the horse

00:57:53because that's what the trainer gets.

00:57:55They get paid up front for the first two months.

00:57:58And then you'll get an invoice 15 days before that's over.

00:58:03So you can pay up front for the next.

00:58:05And I've had owners before those seven, eight months behind

00:58:10and claiming horses at the racetrack with another trainer.

00:58:15It's hard to do.

00:58:16We're starting to do little things to help trainers a little.

00:58:19We've got the deal here at Oakland where you get the 10%

00:58:26taken out and put into the trainer's file.

00:58:29And we did that at Delaware as well.

00:58:31And I think that helps a little.

00:58:33The bad, I mean, horrible to win races

00:58:36and an owner beats you out of that,

00:58:39or have to wait six months to get your portion of that.

00:58:42And the jockey's already got theirs taken out immediately.

00:58:45So we tried to get it to where at least we got that money.

00:58:48You didn't win and you didn't get paid for it.

00:58:51But it's caused me to reevaluate how I do business.

00:58:55And there's like Brad said, we know who the bad people are.

00:59:00We talk amongst ourselves.

00:59:01The racetrack has a way of letting people know who's who.

00:59:06And it made me to where I started to own more of my own horses.

00:59:12I just decided that if I'm going to finance these things,

00:59:15then I might as well put myself,

00:59:17if I'm the one that's actually doing this all the time.

00:59:19I had one owner that passed away and they own 12 horses.

00:59:24And 16 months after he passed, I got 8 cents on the dollar.

00:59:32For the balance that he had.

00:59:34Five months for why he was in the hospital.

00:59:37And the estate was worth $17 million.

00:59:40But I settled for 8 cents on the dollar.

00:59:44And I was, you know what, if I can finance it that long,

00:59:48then I'll just start buying me a few horses on my own.

00:59:50And we started Southern Springs just because I decided

00:59:54I'm going to demand of who I want to work for

00:59:57and not, you know, don't have to take everyone.

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01:00:41Now we rejoin the podcast.

01:00:43The trainer lifestyle.

01:00:45I know your time is very, very valuable.

01:00:47So we don't want to keep you much longer.

01:00:48But one final question for each individual.

01:00:52I really want to, I really want to ask what is, what gets you really fired up?

01:00:59If there was one thing that trainers have to deal with on a day-to-day basis,

01:01:05what is that one thing that you really want to address that people, the public,

01:01:13might not necessarily realize or understand?

01:01:18Anybody can start.

01:01:20Yeah, Bill.

01:01:22I don't know if anything gets me fired up.

01:01:24But I think the issue now that's in front of us, the court cases, the cheaters.

01:01:34I mean, yeah, listen, I'll be blunt about it.

01:01:39Jason's service was stable next to me.

01:01:41Everyone knew, Jason never came to New York.

01:01:44Everyone knew kind of what was going on, what that was doing, what, how it was getting in.

01:01:49And probably the thing that would be fire me up is the owners that supported those guys.

01:01:56They knew, they knew that it wasn't on the up and up.

01:02:01You know, you can win it at 40%.

01:02:03I mean, I work for one of the greatest trainers of all time.

01:02:06Back then, you know, you guys talk Woody Stevens, Charlie Whittingham, whatever.

01:02:10When you won at 20%, that was a big number.

01:02:13Red notes, those are hard numbers to beat.

01:02:1520, 25, placing your horses where you want to.

01:02:18These guys went in at 40, 45%.

01:02:21And then the owners that supported these guys.

01:02:25And in the situation that we're in today with some of the cases going on,

01:02:28and there'll be more, but nothing has been said about any of the owners.

01:02:33Maybe they didn't know exactly what was going on.

01:02:36They knew it wasn't on the up and up.

01:02:37They knew their vet bills were really high.

01:02:40But, you know, we haven't heard anything about them.

01:02:43And listen, the game is about owners and gamblers.

01:02:47You know, we're lucky to be, this is our passion.

01:02:51I'm very fortunate that I decided at a young age of 14 what I wanted to do.

01:02:56My dad thought I was crazy.

01:02:58But from that point on, I knew what I wanted to do.

01:03:00But yeah, if you want to say one thing that would get me fired up is,

01:03:03yeah, what about the owners that supported these people?

01:03:08You know, and not much is said.

01:03:10And, you know, people that, the press that glorify these guys

01:03:14as like the greatest trainers and, you know, like they revolutionize the game.

01:03:20You know, these are animals.

01:03:21That doesn't happen.

01:03:23Brad, what is your thought?

01:03:24Maybe what's the one thing that you think is maybe either a big concern

01:03:29or as Gabby put it, fires you up about what's going on?

01:03:33Well, you know, we're in a position where we're winning at a certain number

01:03:38and it does kind of fire me up.

01:03:39And I guess it maybe pisses me off a little bit when,

01:03:43you know, people label you as, oh, they're giving something.

01:03:46And, you know, listen, it's one of those things where like,

01:03:50I think if someone came out to the track and hung out for a month or so

01:03:54and kind of watch, you know, maybe the overall way things are done

01:03:59on and off the racetrack, people, you know, there's a difference.

01:04:02I think there's a difference in trainers.

01:04:05That's just my opinion.

01:04:07But, you know, I think there's a lot of negativity around the game.

01:04:11And if we want to draw new people in, I think we should kind of maybe

01:04:16kill it with all the negativity if we could and promote the game as opposed to,

01:04:22you know, I mean, there was a trainer just was

01:04:27given some days and a fine for in Kentucky.

01:04:32And I mean, I just can't believe that just in my mind,

01:04:35I just can't believe that that guy deliberately did something to that horse

01:04:40with whatever the horse received.

01:04:42And, you know, for people to bash the trainer that it's just it's ridiculous.

01:04:47I that's my personal opinion of it.

01:04:49I don't think the guy deliberately did anything.

01:04:51I don't think there was an intent.

01:04:52Now, back to what David said, there was guys deliberately cheating.

01:04:55That's no good.

01:04:56That's like totally no good.

01:04:58But for to think that a guy comes up with a positive here or there

01:05:02and that it's like a deliberate

01:05:06an attempt to enhance a horse's performance.

01:05:09I just I can't believe that.

01:05:11And I think people get a bad, bad rap for stuff sometimes.

01:05:15And it's the negative part of the game that people love to talk about,

01:05:19love to bash people, talk about nothing but negative.

01:05:23But I don't think it helps our sport at all.

01:05:25And that's that's something that does aggravate me a bit.

01:05:31I mean, I agree with you, Brad.

01:05:33I had to take a couple of weeks off from Twitter because you go on Twitter.

01:05:37I mean, you could literally I posted a picture of a tree

01:05:40that my initials were carved into with my dad when I was five years old.

01:05:45And they said I was a tree killer.

01:05:46So that's just the ridiculousness of social media.

01:05:51But I do think that the responsibility is on us

01:05:55in terms of those within the industry to educate.

01:05:59And I think a lot has to do with the statistics that we have.

01:06:04And I think it's a necessary evil statistics are.

01:06:06But I was talking to Christina the other day.

01:06:09If you're winning at 20 percent or 35 percent first off the claim,

01:06:15nobody's really doing their homework and looking at that statistic.

01:06:19Maybe you're claiming a horse for dropping them in for 20.

01:06:23They're supposed to win.

01:06:24They're four to five.

01:06:25You know, it's not like you're raising them up to stakes company.

01:06:29Yeah, someone has an aggressive mentality.

01:06:32And, you know, it's like, you know, when you're aggressive.

01:06:35I mean, listen, I did it with Midwest thoroughbreds 10, 12 years ago.

01:06:39I mean, we would claim horses and, you know, it was OK.

01:06:42We claimed it for 10.

01:06:43Are we going to run it back for 10 or five?

01:06:44Or, you know, it's just win, win, win.

01:06:46It's just when it wasn't win at all costs.

01:06:49It was play somewhere they can cross the wire first.

01:06:51And I tell people, I mean, it was back then.

01:06:55I mean, I think there may have been a year where we were 32 percent.

01:06:58We were doing everything.

01:06:59There was nothing done illegal.

01:07:00We were running horses very, very aggressively.

01:07:03And guess what?

01:07:04Sixty six percent of the time entering those horses aggressive.

01:07:07It didn't work.

01:07:08It's a hard game to win.

01:07:09It's hard to win.

01:07:10But it's it's also has a lot to do with how aggressive you want to be.

01:07:14And and everybody's different.

01:07:17Well, and also, I would think it's also the quality of horses that you have in your barn, too.

01:07:21We look a lot at a lot of the top operations.

01:07:24And obviously you get trainers, certain trainers that get the the top,

01:07:31the horses that are coming out of the sales,

01:07:33the sales toppers, the the top draft pick, so to speak.

01:07:36And so, yeah, I'm assuming some of those horses should turn out to be pretty good, right?

01:07:44Yeah, I mean, listen, name the best outfits in the country,

01:07:49whether it's, you know, Brad and Todd and Baffert or whatever.

01:07:53And listen, Brad's in a great spot now.

01:07:55I mean, you're he's getting horses.

01:07:57I tell people for Judd, Matt, Godolphin, among others, they're nice horses.

01:08:03They're going to run well.

01:08:04And I don't know Brad personally that well.

01:08:07Listen, I know that he same with claiming horses.

01:08:09He aggressively will place his horses and always did.

01:08:12I'm the reverse.

01:08:13I've got clients.

01:08:14I claim a horse.

01:08:15First thing we can't run them back.

01:08:17I'm like, you got to be kidding me.

01:08:19I got to run them on the race.

01:08:20So obviously they're going to get beat.

01:08:23You know, it is the odd horse that is going to go.

01:08:25So but listen, I'm comfortable in my zone where I'm at.

01:08:29Um, some guys are listening.

01:08:32Good claiming trainers are good because they aggressively will place your horses.

01:08:38The negative side today's world, um, it's hard to claim horses.

01:08:43Uh, I didn't realize how liberal the rules were in Kentucky.

01:08:47A trainer, if I'm correct, Brad, a trainer can take as many as you want, right?

01:08:53Three.

01:08:54I mean, you know, we're allowed one.

01:08:55You know, I mean, so, you know, you're shaking for everything.

01:08:58You know, Brad having a few horses in New York.

01:09:00I mean, if you want to claim it is difficult, but, um, you know, again, it's how aggressive

01:09:06you are.

01:09:07What kind of same with Chad's operation?

01:09:09You know, I tell people, I don't know.

01:09:12Let's switch staples for a while.

01:09:15Let me hit some of those grasshorses, you know?

01:09:17So, I mean, you know, it's different sometimes than driving the Volkswagen and driving a

01:09:22really nice Mercedes, uh, you know, and yeah.

01:09:26But it's a question of where do you want to be in life?

01:09:28Where, what do you want to do?

01:09:32Ron, don't you find that a little bit frustrating though?

01:09:34Sometimes when, if you, when people do look at just statistics and they base, they judge

01:09:41based on just that, when they're not really looking into, you know, the quality of horses

01:09:46that maybe a trainer has available to them, or because obviously you've had success and

01:09:51you've had success with horses, you know, that maybe didn't cost a million dollars,

01:09:56or it wasn't the top from a sale.

01:09:58You know, you had, you made, you had great success with, you know, with horses that you

01:10:04developed, but isn't it sometimes frustrating for a trainer when people sometimes just look

01:10:10at stats and then that's, that just kind of decides for them if he's a good trainer or

01:10:14not.

01:10:15Yeah, I wrote something about this earlier is, you know, I never, I never have understood

01:10:22how everybody wants to use stats.

01:10:24Like it's a definite science, like, you know, this is a fact.

01:10:29The fact of the matter is, is if certain trainers entered like other trainers, they would have

01:10:35a higher win percentage.

01:10:36Now, does that mean they're getting the most out of the animal, the individual animal?

01:10:41Sometimes, yes, sometimes no, but I don't like the fact that we only talk about the

01:10:48one step, the win percentage of the first off the claim is that one percentage.

01:10:52And I said before, you know, I've felt like I've done a great job with a horse that was

01:10:58back in the knee that was bred by a breeder of mine, and we ended up winning three out

01:11:03of five, although they were all claiming races, three out of five with it.

01:11:09As someone else has with a, you know, taking a million dollar horse and winning a million

01:11:15dollars, it's do you get the most out of your product?

01:11:18Luckily, like people like Brad and Steve, the people that I get to see all the time,

01:11:23I think they get the most out of their product.

01:11:25From that point on, that's your job is to develop the horses you have.

01:11:29You can't hate on somebody for, for, you know, getting, you know, Alabama style talent and

01:11:37doing Alabama things with them.

01:11:39But if you, if you looked up and you saw they had Alabama talent that was doing University

01:11:43of Rhode Island things, then you would say that that person's not good.

01:11:47Well, I think there ought to be extra credit given when people says, you know, we run a

01:11:51race the other day with a horse that costs $20,000.

01:11:55We, we run second in the race that beat by a horse that costs $450,000 at the same sale.

01:12:02We run second guy beat a half a length.

01:12:04At the, at the end of the deal, there's a guy sends me something that was on TV, Jay,

01:12:09where they complimented that other trainer about how good a trainer he was and how he

01:12:13wins first out.

01:12:14Moquette just isn't as good with first time starters.

01:12:17Now I would argue that I'm way money ahead.

01:12:20Now I'm not going to say, you know, that horse is supposed to have won based on prices, but

01:12:25we also had $500,000 horses not run very well.

01:12:28I just want there to be more, you know, it seems like the easiest thing in the world

01:12:32to do is to take this number and go, Oh, this number bigger than this number.

01:12:36He better.

01:12:37No, it's not the way it is.

01:12:38It's there's a lot of things that goes into that number.

01:12:41And, you know, I have been lucky that I have owners that spend money and I've, you know,

01:12:47also been lucky that I've had to develop some horses that no one else thought could get

01:12:51there and work their way up.

01:12:53But I think there ought to be extra credit given.

01:12:55And the main thing that I have as far as about things that you wish you could change or really

01:13:01ticks you off about the industry is there's no representation.

01:13:05None.

01:13:05There's nobody up there telling anybody who's in charge that goes up there and who's the

01:13:12says, listen, you know, that trainer in Kentucky, the minute amount of stuff that they found

01:13:18in their system, it obviously isn't enough to enhance a thoroughbred.

01:13:22It's antiquated.

01:13:23It's antiquated, you know, drug laws with very new, newfangled testing equipment.

01:13:31You know, don't let's use some common sense.

01:13:34Somebody get up on social media and say, Hey, this guy's not taking an advantage with a

01:13:39with this.

01:13:40This is probably something that got in there.

01:13:42Secondary.

01:13:43You know, I did a deal the other day, a blade of hay from the West Coast is touched by seven

01:13:49different people before we feed it to a horse.

01:13:52Now, is it possible that the guy that I saw at Delaware Park standing in the back of the

01:13:57truck urinating?

01:14:00Could have maybe he drove all the way from the West Coast.

01:14:02You think he might have did some no-dos or something?

01:14:06And there's a possibility that it happens.

01:14:08If you look in there and it's one trillionth of a trillionth of whatever, you know, that's

01:14:13not enough to make a 1200 pound animal.

01:14:15Meanwhile, we're not saying anything about the test that we can't find today.

01:14:19The stuff that service and then we're doing this great testing equipment that we're ready

01:14:23to throw the book at this guy over is the same testing, testing stuff that that can't

01:14:29catch the guy cheating in the Kentucky Derby.

01:14:32So we're going to stand up and testify that that's what we want to be the end all be all

01:14:37definite judge of who's cheating.

01:14:39You can't find that stuff if you tested it today.

01:14:42But yet we're going to we're going to hang somebody else up to drive for for a trillionth

01:14:46of a gram of something that if you would have tested by this by this testing, I truly believe

01:14:53if you go back 20 years, test every horse in Kentucky Derby, their Derby.

01:14:58First off, you were allowed to give a lot of stuff legally back then.

01:15:03You know, that's the other thing, too.

01:15:04While I'm on my soapbox, there are no horsemen today.

01:15:07Bullshit.

01:15:08There are horsemen today.

01:15:09There are horsemen today.

01:15:11They're judged differently.

01:15:13We have a way different way of judging.

01:15:16First off, when I first come to the racetrack, I went to the vet.

01:15:21We were talking about we were going to this new stuff called Lasix.

01:15:24We're going to give Lasix.

01:15:26And they said, well, what do you want for a bridal shot?

01:15:28It's a bridal shot.

01:15:30What is that?

01:15:31Well, that's what you give them right before you hang the bridal.

01:15:36Doing that.

01:15:37Oh, OK.

01:15:37Well, they don't test here.

01:15:40But that's the mentality of racing when I got into it.

01:15:43And now you can't have anything for 48 hours out.

01:15:47And I'm OK with it.

01:15:48But don't paint it that the horsemen, they've all since evolved and gone away.

01:15:53And now these poor people here are just people that's willing to do business.

01:15:57It's not true.

01:15:58There's a different set of judging rules.

01:16:01And, you know, the fact of the matter is, is that 25 years ago,

01:16:05none of those horses could test by today's testing equipment, in my opinion.

01:16:10Doesn't mean that they were cheating.

01:16:11It just means it.

01:16:13I agree 100% with exactly what Ron's saying there.

01:16:16Racing, in my mind, is in regards on a daily basis,

01:16:20on race day, is cleaner than it's ever been.

01:16:23It's been since I've been in the game.

01:16:25When I came into the game as a hot walker, holding horses for the vet,

01:16:29four hours out, horses got Lasix, but I mean, and half of them,

01:16:33you know, it was there was a lot going on.

01:16:36I don't even know what was going on.

01:16:38I mean, I was just a, you know, a hot walker.

01:16:41And but now, like you said, 48 hours inside of a race post time.

01:16:47You don't give these horses anything.

01:16:48And like you said, I'm good with that, too.

01:16:50I'm perfectly fine with it.

01:16:52But it's totally like you said, there's that they've painted this picture

01:16:58that everybody's out trying to cheat.

01:16:59And I just don't really see that.

01:17:01I just I know what goes on in our barn.

01:17:03And it's it's it's I think most barns are clean.

01:17:08I really, really believe that.

01:17:10I mean, there's cameras in barns.

01:17:11There wasn't cameras in barns 20, 25, 30 years ago.

01:17:14And he's exactly right.

01:17:16The horses that won the Kentucky Derby.

01:17:19I mean, they were X amount of years ago.

01:17:21Lasix probably beaut at four hours and whatever else.

01:17:26I mean, I don't know.

01:17:27And now they put guards on these horses and that's the way it should be.

01:17:30I'm good with it.

01:17:30But, you know, they they act like exactly like he said.

01:17:34No, there's no horseman today.

01:17:35That it's not true.

01:17:37It's not true at all.

01:17:39And the problem is also to pile on.

01:17:43The problem is, is that who is who has our back?

01:17:47Who's over there saying, saying, look, people, this guy wasn't taking advantage.

01:17:53This just in this ultimate insurer thing, that's the get out of jail free card.

01:17:58Doesn't matter.

01:17:58The ultimate insurer.

01:17:59I just told you that we counted seven hands that touched our hay before.

01:18:05You know, it makes me nervous.

01:18:08You know, we've got cameras.

01:18:09There's cameras in our barn at Oakland.

01:18:11I know there's cameras in Brad's because I watched him put them in.

01:18:14You know, there's I think you got 24 cameras.

01:18:17I got 24 cameras and then I got my own kids to protect me.

01:18:22But, you know, and the thing is, it's like I'm OK with all that stuff.

01:18:27But who's up there saying, you know, just common sense.

01:18:31We replace common sense with regulations and regulations.

01:18:35It's just too black and white.

01:18:36It's like this isn't supposed to be there.

01:18:38If it's there, you're cheating.

01:18:40Well, where's the common sense that says that, look, this whatever this was in this amount

01:18:46had no bearing on it.

01:18:47It shouldn't, you know, shouldn't have shouldn't be there.

01:18:51Yes.

01:18:51But we can't guarantee that everything I had a bad test.

01:18:56That that I fought and beat.

01:18:59Thank God we had a horse win at Delaware and is a sixty five hundred dollar non winners

01:19:06of three.

01:19:07And she won and they come back and said that she had something I've never heard of in the

01:19:12system.

01:19:13And I I was like, Ronnie Werner was my assistant.

01:19:17You know, Ronnie's Ronnie's an honest guy.

01:19:19He's a good guy.

01:19:19And I wasn't there.

01:19:20I was sick and I was in the hospital.

01:19:23They called me and said, hey, Ron, we need we need to set up a hearing.

01:19:27You got a bad test.

01:19:28And I'm like, holy shit.

01:19:30What's this?

01:19:30And, you know, I called Ronnie and said, man, ain't nobody give that horse nothing.

01:19:35And so anyways, we went and fought it.

01:19:38Come to find out what they were ready to throw in.

01:19:41Look, it was a public report, but something like that put me out there and I'm a cheater

01:19:47and all this stuff.

01:19:48And what come up, it was in the water in the test bar.

01:19:54And yet I was already damned and convicted of cheating for a sixty five hundred dollar

01:20:01claiming race for two guys or six, nine and six, ten play professional football.

01:20:05Last thing I want to do is call them and say, hey, guys, I was less than careful or I took

01:20:11an advantage when you're three to five.

01:20:14So now you've got to send that money back.

01:20:17That wasn't a good call, but it was just, you know, I just don't like the fact that

01:20:21nobody's got a back.

01:20:23And we're we're basically all standing there on our own.

01:20:26Oh, by the way, we're tired.

01:20:29You know, when Brad gets off the phone and David gets on the phone, I promise you, they're

01:20:33going to do something.

01:20:34They're not going to go catch a game of golf.

01:20:36They're going to do something that is required by the life they chose.

01:20:41And there's just not enough time in the day to defend yourself because these keyboard

01:20:45warriors and these people that are anti racing are out there throwing all this shit to the

01:20:49wall.

01:20:50And then we're going, oh, well, surely people believe that this isn't right.

01:20:57No, they do.

01:20:58They do believe that we are cheaters and that we are.

01:21:01Everybody out here is taking advantage of everyone we cross.

01:21:04And we're a less than desirable group of people.

01:21:08So that's my thing.

01:21:09Who's going to have us?

01:21:10What responsibility does the veterinarian have?

01:21:14In your opinions, you because you guys obviously are the point.

01:21:18You're the point people.

01:21:19You're the trainer, right?

01:21:20You're because everybody falls on you guys.

01:21:23But what in your opinions, what responsibility does the veterinarian have?

01:21:28Well, I think a lot.

01:21:29And I think we're seeing some of it now in New York, at least for a change, you know,

01:21:34where we're a, you know, and in the harness game, multiple veterinarians are in the process

01:21:42of being prosecuted now.

01:21:44But again, back to them, there was not a bad test.

01:21:47So nothing tested.

01:21:48If it wasn't for, you know, wiretap and phones and whatnot, they wouldn't have got those

01:21:52guys.

01:21:53But, you know, they're, you know, listen, we've seen, you know, some changes, I suppose,

01:22:02you know, hopefully brings awareness to that profession.

01:22:07Yeah, I don't think there's any doubt.

01:22:08I mean, they play a huge role.

01:22:10But I mean, if you can't trust your vet, then you are in trouble.

01:22:14You got to be, you got to have, and you know, the people that the practice, I use it at

01:22:18the fairgrounds, and I use a different practice at Oakland.

01:22:22I mean, you know, they're very reliable people that I mean, I trust bottom line, you have

01:22:27to have a, you have to have a trust them.

01:22:29And, you know, I don't think those guys would ever do anything.

01:22:33I mean, that they shouldn't do.

01:22:36And that's what it really comes down to is a trust factor.

01:22:43Well, thank you, guys.

01:22:45I mean, this has been a fascinating conversation.

01:22:47I wish we could go on and on, we might have to have a part two, but just really appreciate

01:22:53you being open and honest and candid about it, because there are a lot of issues.

01:22:56And there's a lot of pointing fingers, and there's a lot of negativity.

01:23:00So at the end of the day, I think we just two things, we need to be nicer to one another.

01:23:04And we also just need to use logic and reasoning.

01:23:09Common sense goes a long ways.

01:23:13All right.

01:23:13Thank you guys so much.

01:23:17Well, Christina, I think I kind of need to like catch my breath at the end of this episode.

01:23:24Fireworks.

01:23:26I asked the question, what gets you fired up?

01:23:29And we really saw what got these trainers fired up.

01:23:34Well, I think it just really the whole segment really just encapsulates what goes on with

01:23:40trainers and that people don't often have an understanding because the trainer is the

01:23:45point man in the operation.

01:23:47And as we've seen, that point man could be at on the top of the world one day and can

01:23:54be exalted.

01:23:55And we're all like cheering them.

01:23:57And it's just the most and they are the most wonderful person in the world.

01:24:01And the next moment, everybody, many people try to tear them down.

01:24:06It's a really hard position to be in.

01:24:08And without really fully understanding what's going on behind the scenes, these guys are

01:24:14running an operation where in many cases, even if you have 20, 30, 40 horses, just think

01:24:20about it.

01:24:21Those are separate individuals that you have to take care of that are connected to how

01:24:26many owners to how many and also the staff, the people who are working for you, the blacksmiths,

01:24:32the feed company, the shippers.

01:24:38And I know I'm forgetting there's a million people that come under that whole umbrella.

01:24:42But Gabby, it's really I think it really it really points to the fact that these trainers,

01:24:48they have a lot of pressure on them.

01:24:50They have a lot of eyes on.

01:24:51They have a lot of on them.

01:24:52They have a lot of scrutiny.

01:24:54Sometimes it's hard.

01:24:55And sometimes they get caught in the crosshairs and they don't.

01:24:58And it's accidental at times.

01:25:01It's unwitting.

01:25:02And it happens at every level.

01:25:04I think that was important that we had someone like David Donk, who's been training since

01:25:08the 80s, who came up under Woody Stevens.

01:25:11We got Ron McQuade, who was training since the late 90s.

01:25:14And then Brad, who's been training for 17 years.

01:25:18We kind of hit each group.

01:25:20And in terms of stable size, Dave Donk probably has the smallest stable size.

01:25:25Ron McQuade, second largest.

01:25:27And then you get to Brad, who's at a completely different level.

01:25:31But it seems like there is this undercurrent.

01:25:33There's the same issues at each and every level that we really need to address.

01:25:39So I just hope that whoever is listening to this podcast, we do.

01:25:45We need to change with the times.

01:25:47Technology has changed.

01:25:49Rules and regulations have changed.

01:25:51And I think that's a big part of this.

01:25:54But also, you kind of felt that they were really impacted by the negativity in the sport.

01:26:01And sometimes, I'll be honest with you, Christina, if we're all just pouring it out there today,

01:26:06it's hard for me sometimes that people are just so negative on social platforms, too.

01:26:11When we're just working, we're trying to make a living, we're passionate about the sport.

01:26:16And sometimes, it is disappointing.

01:26:19And I think you kind of got that vibe from these three as well.

01:26:23Well, I think you make an excellent point.

01:26:26And the only thing I'll add is something that Brad said, that I think people just have an

01:26:31impression that when you're super successful, it's all easy.

01:26:34It all comes easy.

01:26:35You're making money.

01:26:36OK, you're making money.

01:26:37You're also paying out a lot more money.

01:26:39You're also having, with the number of horses you have, proportionately speaking,

01:26:45you also have proportionately more problems as well.

01:26:47We touched on owners and how important owners, having good owners who are going to support you

01:26:53and who are going to do the right thing and support these trainers.

01:26:57Because again, there is that trickle-down effect.

01:27:00If the trainer is not getting paid or the trainer is getting whacked on one side,

01:27:06several, many, many, many more people are going to feel it.

01:27:09So I do think that the sensitivity or the intensity that we saw in them in this episode

01:27:17is real because they really become the target for a lot of animosity sometimes.

01:27:23And they work hard.

01:27:25Whether you are Todd Pletcher, Chad Brown, Brad Cox, whether you're David Donk,

01:27:31whether you're Ron Moquette, whether it doesn't matter where you are,

01:27:35where you train and where you're settled, it's hard.

01:27:38It's hard work.

01:27:39These are animals.

01:27:40It's seven days a week.

01:27:41It's 24 hours a day.

01:27:43I would say some people like to kick you when you're down too.

01:27:46You had a six to five favorite and a stakes race.

01:27:48You did your best.

01:27:49You were confident going into the race.

01:27:51Didn't get the right trip or something happened.

01:27:54Horse lost.

01:27:54You get yelled at by the owners and you missed your son's football game on a Saturday.

01:28:01It's just the whole world is crumbling.

01:28:03I just think that this really gave us more of a personal,

01:28:07you know, a look into the personal life of a trainer.

01:28:10And I thought this was fantastic.

01:28:12A lot of fun.

01:28:14Yeah, I really appreciate them.

01:28:15And I'm glad that they came on and we'll look forward to the next one down the line.

01:28:19But as you said, Gabby, we could probably have done 10 installments with these guys

01:28:24and we would have had something new to talk about every time.

01:28:26So this was a good one.

01:28:27And we're so glad you guys joined us.

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