A Trump administration effort to deport prominent Palestinian activist Mahmoud Khalil has sparked fear on college campuses across the country that other international students could be targeted for their views. A year after student protests unsettled the nation, we look at the new administration’s moves on college campuses and hear from someone worried even US citizens could soon be caught up in the crackdown.
Guests: Belinda Davis, Rutgers University Professor of History
Have a tip or question about the new Trump administration? Call us at 202-240-2895.
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Guests: Belinda Davis, Rutgers University Professor of History
Have a tip or question about the new Trump administration? Call us at 202-240-2895.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices (https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices)
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NewsTranscript
00:00Let's make some noise!
00:06On Wednesday morning, I made my way to the U.S. courthouse in Lower Manhattan.
00:10Hands off our students now!
00:13Ice off our campuses now!
00:17A sizable crowd had gathered in a plaza across the street.
00:21Some had brought signs, some were wearing keffiyehs, Palestinian flags were waving in
00:26the wind.
00:31And one man's name was ringing out over and over.
00:36Palestinian activist Mahmoud Khalil will remain in a U.S. immigration detention facility in
00:41Louisiana following his first court appearance on Wednesday.
00:44Mahmoud Khalil was arrested by ICE agents acting on a State Department order to revoke
00:50his green card.
00:51President Trump goes on to say, quote, this is the first arrest of many to come.
00:56People I spoke to outside the courthouse, like Columbia alum Nas Issa, say this moment
01:01should scare everyone.
01:02I mean, it doesn't begin and end with people who are protesting against the genocide that's
01:08happening in Gaza or people who are protesting for Palestinian rights.
01:12And that's why it's even more important for us to fight back against it.
01:15Have you heard from anybody who is like, this is just not a moment where I can be out?
01:20You know, it's just a little too scary at this point.
01:23At Columbia, I've heard from students who are afraid to go to class, are afraid to go
01:26on campus.
01:27I've heard of professors transitioning their classes to hybrid or via Zoom so that students
01:33who are afraid of appearing on campus, you know, don't have to come in.
01:38Students sometimes come to class, but they won't like speak publicly.
01:41So I think it is, they are trying to create a climate of repression and fear.
01:45And I think, you know, to the degree that it's creating this climate, it's also provoking
01:51a strong response from the students.
01:57Where did you come here from?
01:58Canada.
01:59OK. Canada's in the news.
02:03Elaine Oliphant is a professor at NYU, and she, like Khalil, was a green card holder
02:08for a number of years. She's since become a U.S.
02:11citizen.
02:12But now it's with the loss of Mahmoud's rights, I feel like even citizens should really be
02:17worried that arbitrary detention is now kind of up for grabs.
02:22Did you ever think that this would be the state of things here in the U.S.
02:27as someone who was not born here?
02:30I mean, I don't think I came in with like still quite the like fantasies of the U.S.
02:35as the epitome of democracy.
02:36There's clearly been lots of ways that the U.S.
02:39has harmed the rights of its citizens, its black citizens in particular over the
02:45centuries. But I did think that a lot of people on the right and left were really committed
02:50to this idea of freedom of speech and of the right against arbitrary detention.
02:54I thought those were the kind of core of what Americans understood themselves as like as
02:59holding in ways that other countries don't, other citizens don't hold.
03:03So I am surprised that there's not more, that this has happened and that there's not more
03:08real concern about it.
03:10So nearly a year after those college protests against Israel's bombardment of Gaza
03:15following the Hamas terror attacks on October 7th and the sometimes heavy-handed
03:19response by the police and restrictions by university administrators that followed,
03:24how does Mahmoud Khalil's arrest change the calculus for anyone wanting to make their
03:29voices heard? From CNN, this is One Thing.
03:33I'm David Rind.
03:39Let's back up a bit.
03:45Mahmoud Khalil was born in Syria to Palestinian refugees, and he eventually made his
03:50way to the U.S. and enrolled at Columbia University in New York City, where he completed
03:55work on a master's degree last December.
04:00Columbia, of course, was the epicenter of nationwide protests against Israel's actions in
04:05Gaza last April and May.
04:07More than 2,000 people have been arrested on college and university campuses in the
04:11last two weeks, including at Dartmouth College in New Hampshire
04:19and Portland State University in Oregon.
04:21Police officers in riot gear cleared barricades.
04:27And Khalil was a key negotiator between students and Columbia's administration.
04:32Today is yet another disgraceful and shameful day for the Columbia administration.
04:39In fact, he spoke to CNN last April as a weeks-long standoff between protesters and
04:44Columbia leadership boiled over, with NYPD officers forcibly clearing out a building
04:49that had been taken over by a splinter group of demonstrators.
04:53They refused to acknowledge that this is actually more than that.
04:59This is a nationwide movement.
05:00This is a movement that asked Columbia to divest its investments from the companies
05:07that are fueling the war in Gaza right now.
05:13Flash forward to March 8th of this year.
05:16According to the group Writers Against the War on Gaza, Khalil was approached by two
05:21plainclothes agents for the Department of Homeland Security at the university-owned
05:26apartment building where he lived with his pregnant wife, who is a U.S.
05:29citizen, and was arrested.
05:31Khalil's lawyer said Khalil's wife was eventually told that Khalil's green card
05:36would be revoked, and Khalil was whisked away, first to an ICE detention facility in
05:41New Jersey and then to Louisiana, thousands of miles from New York.
05:45The Justice Department is attempting to move court proceedings there, a move experts
05:50say could increase the likelihood that the case would end up in front of a Trump
05:54appointed judge.
05:55This whole incident raised many questions.
05:57Among them, what authority did they have to arrest a legal permanent resident?
06:02No one has a right to a student visa.
06:04No one has a right to a green card, by the way.
06:07So when you apply for a student visa or any visa to enter the United States, we have a
06:11right to deny you for virtually any reason.
06:13Secretary of State Marco Rubio says there's a provision of immigration law that allows
06:18the deportation of a legal resident if the person's activities would have potential
06:23potentially seriously adverse foreign policy consequences for the U.S.
06:28White House Press Secretary Caroline Leavitt also claimed, without evidence, that Khalil
06:32had distributed pro-Hamas propaganda on campus.
06:36And we are not going to tolerate non-citizens, foreigners who come here on a visa
06:42engaging in such behavior, siding with terrorists.
06:45But again, the administration is not providing evidence that Khalil was actually
06:49providing evidence that Khalil was actually working with Hamas, supporting them in any
06:53way. Members of his legal team say what's happening here is clear.
06:57They're not claiming that he did anything illegal.
07:00They just don't like what he thinks and says.
07:04And in this country, so far, we're a democracy.
07:07We have the First Amendment.
07:09That is not illegal.
07:11Then on Thursday, Columbia University announced it had expelled or suspended some of
07:15the students who barricaded themselves in that building last April.
07:19And in a major escalation, the university said the Department of Homeland Security had
07:24secured warrants to search two university residences.
07:32So how will all of this impact other universities?
07:36I'm Belinda Davis.
07:38I am a professor of history at Rutgers University and a Jewish
07:43historian of 20th century Germany, as well as a specialist in social movements,
07:49including work on official efforts to suppress activism on campus and
07:54otherwise. That all sounds very relevant to this conversation.
07:59Professor Davis says while Khalil's arrest was concerning, she wasn't necessarily
08:04surprised, especially when you look at history.
08:07I mean, these are the same kinds of actions we saw, moreover, in anti-Vietnam protests
08:13and anti-apartheid protests.
08:16And while, you know, the threats to those on campus certainly pale
08:21in comparison to scholasticide and alongside actual
08:26genocide in Gaza, it's really getting into dangerous territory.
08:31There have already been clear effects in terms of the ways that university
08:36administrators have both in response to federal
08:41officials and also anticipatorily have acted
08:45to quell free speech.
08:48They have gone along with the story that this is about anti-Semitism
08:54when, in fact, Jewish Americans are
08:58extra proportionately represented, in fact, in these protests
09:03and this notion somehow that we're the ones creating a danger
09:07on campus. And I say we because I have been an active
09:12member of the Faculty for Justice in Palestine.
09:16The idea that we're the ones creating threats, making people
09:20feel unsafe, you know, seems to me to be a very upside down world in terms
09:25of what I've experienced, to be sure.
09:28Yeah, I wanted to ask about your work on the Faculty for Justice in Palestine.
09:32So you've been out there helping organize demonstrations,
09:37acting as an intermediary between students and the administration
09:42right during some of the protests over the last year.
09:44Exactly.
09:45Well, so how are you approaching that work now in light of this arrest?
09:50Are you planning on changing anything about how
09:53you kind of present yourself out on campus or wherever?
09:58We have tried not to do that.
09:59I can say that my sense is that there are now more undergraduates
10:05who feel themselves vulnerable.
10:08And we are seeing fewer come out to protest the genocide.
10:13And, you know, I think that's a regrettable mark of university
10:18administrators' success in carrying out the policies,
10:21you know, of of the federal government.
10:24And that was even before this arrest.
10:26You're saying that there's been less people out and about.
10:29Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.
10:31And, you know, we saw the the reactions,
10:34especially after in the last administration,
10:37when the presidents of Penn and Yale
10:42and elsewhere in Harvard were called up to,
10:45you know, to testify on the issue.
10:48And we're in no uncertain terms told that their federal funding was threatened.
10:54I'm a tenured professor.
10:56The effort on our part has been to kind of step up all the more
11:01to protect those on campus who feel more vulnerable
11:05and often to protest in the place of those who've
11:09who felt that they've had to step back.
11:12Well, you know, actually being out like on the on the green or something,
11:15protesting is one thing.
11:16But we heard that Department of Homeland Security
11:19is actually using intelligence to kind of gather information
11:23about some of these folks that they may want to go after.
11:27So are you advising international students
11:31who could be at risk here to be careful about what they say in class
11:35or post on social media as it relates to all this?
11:37Yeah, we are.
11:39I don't think such people should endanger themselves.
11:43It's a sad situation.
11:45But those who are the most vulnerable have to protect their own positions.
11:50Quite rightfully so.
11:51And again, it's up to those of us who feel in a slightly more secure position
11:57to kind of pick up the slack.
11:59Although, again, I mean, there's really been a slippery slope, to be sure,
12:04represented by the deportation or the threatened deportation
12:08and certainly the arrest and detention of a permanent resident in this country.
12:24The concern about some of these demonstrations
12:26is that they have escalated beyond being simply pro-Palestinian
12:30or to get universities to divest from Israel,
12:33but have instead, in some cases, tipped in doubt, right, anti-Semitism.
12:37And many Jewish students have reported harassment
12:40or just generally feeling unsafe at some of these places.
12:43And in fact, your university, Rutgers University,
12:46is one of the 60 colleges that the U.S.
12:49Department of Education sent a letter to earlier this week
12:52announcing they were under investigation
12:55for alleged violations of anti-Semitic harassment or discrimination.
12:59President Trump has vowed to cut federal funding to colleges
13:02accused of tolerating anti-Semitism.
13:05So I guess I'm wondering, do you welcome an investigation like that?
13:10No, and this is the reason why.
13:13Certainly any form of racism, of discrimination is wrong.
13:20But there has been, in my own observation,
13:26no actual examples of this and certainly not organized examples.
13:33If individuals are actually making anti-Semitic statements of any sort,
13:39they have nothing to do with these organized protests.
13:43So that's the first thing to be said.
13:45The second thing one can say is that in many cases,
13:49these organizations that are so concerned about anti-Semitism
13:54that are making the direct link between anti-Zionism
13:58and anti-genocide on the one hand and anti-Semitism.
14:03And that's a pretty powerless game.
14:05I mean, that's a way of actually creating a link that, if anything,
14:11you know, is likely to spur anti-Semitism, regrettably.
14:16But you don't think there have been any real examples of anti-Semitism
14:20at any of these protests or on campuses since this has all started?
14:24Not by the faculty for justice in Palestine or the students for justice.
14:34But even beyond your university, like the whole picture?
14:37No, no, I mean at the national level, absolutely.
14:41There again, I understand that there has been anti-Semitism
14:47that should be shut down.
14:48So should anti-Palestinian hate speech.
14:52That should absolutely be shut down as well.
14:55And what I've seen is a whole lot more of that.
14:58So, you know, this isn't my argument, isn't that anti-Semitism doesn't matter?
15:04And it's not that there is no anti-Semitism.
15:07But I think it's a real mistake to conflate
15:12these individualized acts of anti-Semitism
15:16with the anti-genocide protests that so many have been engaged in.
15:21Again, including so many Jewish Americans.
15:25Yes, it's always a problem when there's racism,
15:28when there's ethnic hatred, anything like this is horrible.
15:33But we certainly don't countenance that.
15:36We are not making a connection between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism.
15:41And by again talking about being anti-genocide and pro-Palestinian
15:48should never be taken to mean anti-Semitic in itself.
15:53So I think it's a very convenient campaign for this administration
15:59to be able to carry out the kind of really dangerous,
16:02authoritarian and surveillance oriented acts
16:07that that are very appealing to this administration.
16:10You know, more broadly, I'm thinking about how these protests on campuses
16:14have been received.
16:16You know, there were encampments set up on quads.
16:18In some cases, police were called in to break them up at Rutgers.
16:22Specifically, there was an encampment set up by the Students for Justice
16:26in Palestine group.
16:27That chapter was suspended, then reinstated, then suspended again.
16:31The university eventually released guidelines for free expression,
16:34which delineated exactly where people can hold demonstrations.
16:39Do you feel like your campus and colleges more broadly across the country
16:43are a place where students and faculty like yourself can just speak their mind?
16:49I do not in the current atmosphere,
16:53because I think the faculty actually played an important role
16:58in trying to mediate between the administration
17:02and members of the encampment, which was entirely peaceful,
17:06which was not disruptive, may I add, throughout its entirety.
17:11And I know that because faculty took turns being out there all the time.
17:15I don't think that at Rutgers that these guidelines
17:20represent a completely sincere interest
17:24in free speech and in the right
17:28to expression with the very kind of careful emphasis
17:33on exactly where somebody can be and can't be.
17:37And the only response can be to fight back against that,
17:40because I think we've never, as far as my American history tells us,
17:47certainly in the last century, been closer
17:50to a really serious breakdown of democratic practice in this country.
17:55Well, so you mentioned that you have tenure, right?
17:58I mean, that's a level of security there.
18:01So what would you honestly tell someone, an international student,
18:04somebody on a student visa or just, you know, a minority group
18:08who is afraid of where things are right now
18:12and maybe can't speak out quite as forcefully as you, what would you tell them?
18:17Yeah, yeah.
18:18I think that they that they should not in in the current atmosphere.
18:24I don't think that the right to protest a genocide
18:29in the particulars here, you know, worth the deportation of students.
18:36But I think it also can't be a reason not to keep pushing for it,
18:40because I think the more we protest, the more there is broad awareness
18:46and we have to prevent the story from being told that we are filled with hate
18:52and that we are trying to threaten those on campus and off.
18:58We have to tell the story that we are fighting against genocide
19:03and we are fighting for the right to express ourselves.
19:07Is there a chance that that public perception battle is already lost?
19:11I don't think so. I don't think so.
19:14Certainly see ways in which we've been bested
19:19in getting particular narratives out there.
19:22But, you know, that only means we have to continue.
19:26And I do think that there are successes
19:29that we've made in bringing people to a new understanding,
19:33in making sure people understand the specifics, understand the history,
19:39understand larger framings and larger issues at hand.
19:44No, I don't think we've lost.
19:46I think without wanting to use a, you know, a bellicose bit of imagery,
19:51we have lost some battles, but I do not think we've lost the war.
19:56Well, Professor Davis, thanks so much for the time and perspective.
19:59I appreciate it.
20:00It was absolutely my pleasure. Nice to meet you.
20:05We should say a few things here.
20:07Israel has strenuously denied all allegations of genocide since October 7th.
20:12It says it complies with all international law
20:15and has taken efforts to mitigate civilian harm.
20:18This despite a legal ruling last January from the United Nations top court,
20:22the International Court of Justice,
20:24which said that Israel was, quote, plausibly violating international laws on genocide.
20:29Israel actually hailed that ruling at the time because it did not order a ceasefire,
20:34but suggested it would not follow the orders for other emergency measures.
20:38Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu wrote on X,
20:41quote, Nobody will stop us, not the Hague, not the axis of evil and not anybody else.
20:47We should also say we asked the administration from Rutgers University
20:51for an interview.
20:53They declined, but they did give us a statement which reads in part, quote,
20:56Rutgers condemns anti-Semitism in the strongest terms possible.
21:00And we always will do so.
21:02End quote.
21:03Went on to say they follow state and federal law
21:05and will take disciplinary actions where appropriate.
21:08The school also reached a settlement with the Department of Education's
21:12Office for Civil Rights in the final days of the Biden administration
21:15to review hundreds of complaints of discrimination.
21:18And it says it continues to honor that agreement.
21:28One Thing is a production of CNN Audio.
21:31This episode was produced by Paolo Ortiz and me, David Rind.
21:34Our senior producers are Felicia Patinkin and Fez Jamil.
21:37Matt Dempsey is our production manager.
21:39Dan DeZula is our technical director.
21:41And Steve Liktai is the executive producer of CNN Audio.
21:44We get support from Haley Thomas, Alex Manassari, Robert Mathers,
21:48John Deonora, Lainey Steinhardt, Jameis Andres, Nicole Passereau and Lisa Namarow.
21:53Special thanks to Wendy Brundage.
21:55We'll be back on Wednesday.
21:57And in the meantime, if you like the show, be sure to leave us a rating
21:59and a review wherever you listen.
22:01It helps other people discover the show.
22:03We appreciate it. Talk to you later.