'Bankrupting The American People With Impunity': Brandon Gill Hammers Federal Bureaucracy Over Fraud

2 days ago

During a House Oversight Committee hearing, Rep. Brandon Gill (R-TX) questioned witnesses about fraud controls at federal agencies, and government waste.

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Transcript

00:00Mr. Gill from Texas, you are recognized.

00:05Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

00:06Thank you for holding this hearing today.

00:09Ms. Kosilek, thank you for being here as well.

00:13Could you remind us, in fiscal year 2024, what was the amount of improper payments that

00:19were sent out?

00:21$162 billion.

00:26And which agencies were primarily responsible for that?

00:31Some of the programs that had the largest dollar amounts were Medicare, Medicaid, Earned

00:38Income Tax Credit, some of the larger ones.

00:43And how much do you guys at the GAO estimate we lose in fraud every year?

00:49We did a fraud estimate for looking at data for years 2018 through 2022, and we came up

00:55with an estimate of $230 billion to $250 billion annually.

00:59In what agencies do you primarily see fraud?

01:04That estimate was based across all programs.

01:07Okay.

01:08Got it.

01:09So if I'm in, let's just use a specific example, if I'm a fraudster and I want to collect unemployment

01:16checks that I shouldn't be receiving and I steal somebody else's identity to do that

01:21and I apply and apply to the Department of Labor, what are the processes that you would

01:27expect to see the Department of Labor go through to ensure that I don't improperly or fraudulently

01:33receive a check?

01:35So unemployment insurance is an interesting one.

01:37It's a federal-state partnership program, so there are responsibilities at the federal

01:41level and at the state level.

01:43As I mentioned, really having those preventative controls in place, doing those data-matching

01:49checks are some of the key controls that you could expect to see to have an entity have

01:54in place.

01:55And in this case, you need to have those types of controls in place at the state and at the

01:58federal level.

01:59What do we actually see on a realistic basis?

02:04How often are some of these checks actually applied?

02:07We have seen instances and had recommendations for unemployment, I believe, where there could

02:13be additional use by the states of some of those data checks, and I believe we have some

02:18recommendations that there could be requirements to have the states be required to do that

02:25data matching.

02:26But they're not doing it right now.

02:27Right now it's encouraged, but we have found instances where in all cases that is not being

02:31done and that can be a root cause of some of these improper payments.

02:35So in other words, we're mailing out checks without verifying who they're going to?

02:39In some cases.

02:40Got it.

02:41And what are the consequences for agency heads as they're mailing out American taxpayer dollars

02:47without verifying who they're going to?

02:50The consequence is that any time there's improper payments or fraud or money going out for not

02:57the intended purpose, that's money that could be going to rightful recipients and used for

03:02other purposes.

03:03Right.

03:04But I mean from an incentive standpoint on the agency level, is there any consequence

03:08for either employees at the agency or agency heads for mailing out checks fraudulently?

03:15One of the things we have recommended is having an accountable official at the agencies.

03:21As opposed to the recommendations.

03:22Right now is there anything to hold these people accountable?

03:27Agencies are supposed to have an accountable official to oversee this.

03:32But what is the accountability structure?

03:36Do they receive less bonuses, for instance, are they fired?

03:41What's holding them accountable?

03:42I think that is determined by the agency as to how that mechanism is 100% set up.

03:47But certainly Congress can have accountability mechanisms.

03:51What do you see?

03:52Have you ever seen an agency head get fired, for instance, for mailing out billions of

03:56dollars in fraudulent checks?

03:58I have not seen that.

04:00Got it.

04:01Okay.

04:02And once we mail these checks out, is there any way of clawing this money back and holding

04:08the fraudsters accountable?

04:10That's what you're saying.

04:11The payment chase model is not generally effective.

04:14There are requirements that any time there is an improper payment, agencies are supposed

04:19to attempt to get that money back.

04:22But we have found that the percentage that you get back when you're following that model,

04:26as opposed to not having to go out, preventing it is by far much more effective.

04:32Right.

04:33Completely agreed.

04:34It seems to me that we've got an overextended bureaucratic administrative leviathan that

04:40is mailing out American taxpayer dollars fraudulently with virtually no accountability

04:47at all, bankrupting the American people with impunity.

04:52And this is from a federal government that ostensibly works in the interests of American

04:57citizens, is instead wasting our taxpayer dollars on a scale that is difficult to fathom.

05:04I think this is precisely why we need Doge so badly to get this nonsense under control.

05:12And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back and thank you very much.

'Bankrupting The American People With Impunity': Brandon Gill Hammers Federal Bureaucracy Over Fraud

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