Mike Pompeo, at the India Today Conclave, emphasised focusing on Trump’s policies over his tweets, defended his stance on global institutions, and reaffirmed U.S. strategy on Russia and Ukraine.
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00:00:00We have one person over here, amidst us, who understands Trump very well.
00:00:06Welcoming our star speaker for the evening, former Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo.
00:00:11Can we have a very warm round of applause, please?
00:00:18The tough-talking, cancerous-bred political has a knack of navigating power corridors, saying,
00:00:25I've got this.
00:00:27He's done this with Donald Trump.
00:00:29A naysayer in the beginning, became a Trump loyalist later, only to become his CIA chief,
00:00:36and then head the State Department as the Secretary of State.
00:00:40They did many a thing from the Abraham Accords, that was a historic decision by the United
00:00:48States of America, normalizing ties with Middle East, as also the tough decisions on Iran.
00:00:57But let's begin with what's happening now.
00:01:00Secretary of State Pompeo, this is one of those moments where everybody wants to understand,
00:01:07how has Donald Trump, the U.S. President, become so different in Trump 2.0 from what
00:01:13he was in his first term?
00:01:16And let's begin with what happened only recently.
00:01:19We saw the Zelensky-Trump interaction.
00:01:23It was not an easy one to see or to watch.
00:01:26In fact, most of them were wondering whether if this is going to be the norm rather than
00:01:31the exception.
00:01:32Tell us, what was he trying to achieve over there?
00:01:35Well, goodness.
00:01:36Well, first of all, thank you for having me here.
00:01:39It's great to be back and be with you again.
00:01:42I did make it through four years of the administration.
00:01:44I was the only one on the team that made it all four years.
00:01:46So yeah, thanks, exactly.
00:01:52Two thoughts in response to how you began.
00:01:55First, I'm not sure it's so different from the first four years.
00:02:01The first six weeks here have been pretty noisy.
00:02:04President Trump did come in in this term with a deeper understanding, more prepared, an
00:02:12agenda that he didn't have as he began the first term.
00:02:17So more action, more activity.
00:02:18You're certainly seeing that and all the noise that comes with that.
00:02:22Big changes from where the Biden administration was on many things, some of them related to
00:02:26national security, many of them not related to domestic issues, and some of them that
00:02:30cross over, tariffs and economic policy.
00:02:36And so we'll see as things settle up.
00:02:38But when I watch President Trump today, I still see the same person and how he thinks
00:02:43about the world that I knew from my time serving him both as CIA Director and Secretary of State.
00:02:49Second, look, I think that meeting with President Zelensky, who I know pretty well, I think
00:02:54it was very unfortunate.
00:02:57Those of you who are in business or government, I know national security advisors here, we've
00:03:02all had tough meetings where we had very different views.
00:03:06And, you know, people go at it hard, and I have no trouble with that.
00:03:11But the fact that it happened out in the open in the public I think is just very unfortunate
00:03:15for Ukraine, Europe, and frankly for the United States as well, for the world, right?
00:03:20To see that and the risk that's associated with that, I think it's just very, very unfortunate.
00:03:28I don't, however, think it changes much of anything in terms of how the United States
00:03:32will interact with the conflict in Europe.
00:03:37President Trump campaigned saying, we need the Europeans to take this on.
00:03:42We need them to lead.
00:03:43We need them to invest.
00:03:45We need them to stop buying Russian natural gas, right?
00:03:48These are the things that he talked about all throughout his campaign.
00:03:51And as I listened to him, even as recently as yesterday or the day before, that's what
00:03:57I hear him continuing to say.
00:04:00You know, the U.S. media at least likes to gaslight about NATO and the like.
00:04:08If you go back and look at what they said, they're, oh, he's going to walk away from
00:04:10NATO.
00:04:11He never did.
00:04:14And I suspect that set of commitments that the United States has had, that engagement
00:04:18we've had for a long time, will remain with our allies.
00:04:21It'll be noisy.
00:04:23He will ask more from our partners across the world, including this country.
00:04:27He will ask every one of them to do more for the part of the world that they live in.
00:04:33But I think that's very consistent with how he operated in his first four years as well.
00:04:37Always looking for a deal, always looking for leverage, but pretty consistent in the
00:04:42continued support of our partners and friends.
00:04:44You know, you said, Mr. Pompeo, that always looking for a deal.
00:04:51Take us into the mind of Donald Trump as someone who's worked so closely with him.
00:04:55Is he the consumer dealmaker above all else?
00:05:00Is he someone always looking for a deal without necessarily looking at the long-term vision?
00:05:07Is it about short-term, immediate benefits?
00:05:11Give us a sense of the man Donald Trump.
00:05:15Yeah.
00:05:16I don't know that I'd say it's always about short-term versus long-term.
00:05:21He does love to shake hands and cut ribbon and say we had this successful outcome, right?
00:05:28That part, he appreciates a good outcome, a good deal that he can tell people, yeah,
00:05:33I did that or we did that, mostly I, but we did that.
00:05:39That's certainly true.
00:05:40I remember, you'll appreciate this, I was a CIA director and I briefed him almost every
00:05:46day, which was unusual for the director to actually give the briefing.
00:05:50I brought professionals with me, but he did it when I was there.
00:05:54He wanted me to be in the room.
00:05:57One day he kicks everybody else out and he says, Mike, you walk in here and you talk
00:06:01to me about submarines and guns and electronic communications, who's got the money?
00:06:10What he meant by that, I think that was really telling.
00:06:12I think he's right about this.
00:06:14So much conflict in the world is driven by economics, is driven by relative commercial
00:06:20activity as between nations.
00:06:23When you see it, people are fighting sometimes over scarce resources, they're fighting over
00:06:29who's going to control a particular set of assets in the world, what partners can they
00:06:34find to make life better, more prosperous for their own people.
00:06:39That focus on economic outcomes as an imperative for national security is something that is
00:06:45and was, during my time, always at the very top of his mind, and so a good deal fits that
00:06:51model.
00:06:52You're saying he's a good dealmaker, Secretary Pompeo, but a lot of what the Trump administration
00:06:58has been doing and saying in its second term feels like neo-imperialism, the return of
00:07:04the law of the jungle.
00:07:06The mighty do what they will and the weak suffer what they must.
00:07:10After the Second World War, the United States helped create the Bretton Woods institutions.
00:07:15Now it seems determined under President Trump to take that apart.
00:07:20Why is he destroying multilateralism and how do you justify it?
00:07:23Yeah.
00:07:24Well, first of all, I'll give you my thoughts on that and then I'll tell you how I think
00:07:28he thinks about it.
00:07:31Many of those institutions he's not taking apart, they're broken.
00:07:37These institutions, these post-World War II institutions that served us so well, I was
00:07:44a young soldier.
00:07:45I patrolled the East German border, right?
00:07:47So the Cold War idea, these multilateral global institutions, whether it was the World Health
00:07:53Organization or the United Nations or you could go through the dozens and dozens, maybe
00:07:59hundreds of them.
00:08:01Many of them are broken.
00:08:02And when I say broken, they are no longer serving their own stated purpose.
00:08:08They've walked away from their charters and they've now largely, in many cases, become
00:08:12dominated by the Chinese Communist Party.
00:08:15And they are no longer serving the objective.
00:08:17If you go back and look what in early 1950s or 1960s they were aimed at doing, they're
00:08:22broken.
00:08:23And so what I think you actually see, President Trump is recognizing that and saying, goodness
00:08:30gracious, why would we pretend that these structures, these institutions are still delivering?
00:08:36Delivering for the United States' interest, but even more broadly, delivering the things
00:08:40that they say they're supposed to do.
00:08:43Let's go rethink them.
00:08:44Let's go...
00:08:46So we leave the World Health Organization.
00:08:47I advocated for that during Trump 1.
00:08:50I think they left again in Trump 2 already.
00:08:53The UN Human Rights Council.
00:08:55I mean, anybody who actually cares about human rights can't stare at the UN Human Rights
00:09:02Council and think that has anything to do with actual things we actually care about,
00:09:07decency and protecting the innocent and providing resources for the poor.
00:09:11I mean, it's just become the ground where the Russians, the Chinese and the Iranians
00:09:16run roughshod.
00:09:17Okay.
00:09:18And so I just...
00:09:19This is important because President Trump gets accused of, you're breaking these things.
00:09:22And I think in fairness, it's a recognition that we all have to build other structures
00:09:27and we tried to.
00:09:28The Abraham Accords, the Quad, what President Biden and his team did with AUKUS, right?
00:09:33Other structures, other multilateral institutions that actually can deliver in the technological
00:09:40space that the world finds itself in today.
00:09:42Okay.
00:09:43Secretary Pompeo, is it broken or is he disrupting institutions?
00:09:47And I ask this is because look at his appointments.
00:09:50His billionaire friends are the top appointees in the administration, which includes Elon
00:09:55Musk.
00:09:56What do you make of Elon Musk's DOJ appointment, DOJ as a department in itself?
00:10:04And do you think that friendship is going to last long?
00:10:06You've been on the receiving end of not so a happy ending with relations with Donald
00:10:14Trump, one.
00:10:15And secondly, if I may ask, who was the Musk in Trump 1.2?
00:10:20Was it Ivanka?
00:10:21Was it Jared Kushner?
00:10:23There was no Elon Musk in the first Trump.
00:10:26He is a...
00:10:27I know him enough.
00:10:28He is a very unique character.
00:10:33But I mean, look, this is a guy who's built three amazing businesses that are going to
00:10:37change the world.
00:10:38I mean, no one can deny what SpaceX has delivered for the world and will deliver over the next
00:10:4330 years for the world.
00:10:45And no one can deny what Neuralink is on the cusp of doing for the world as well.
00:10:51I mean, these are...
00:10:52This is genius engineering and crazy great entrepreneurship.
00:10:56Now he's serving in this role as this thing called DOJ.
00:11:00It is a noble objective.
00:11:03Our government is way too big for the size of our economy.
00:11:08With $36 trillion in debt, I worry that someday the Indians won't buy...
00:11:14You won't buy our treasury bills, right?
00:11:17The whole world, right, depends...
00:11:18The dollar depends on us getting this right.
00:11:22And so it's going to be a tough slog for the DOJ team to begin to put us back, put our
00:11:28fiscal house back in order.
00:11:30But I hope that they're successful.
00:11:32And here's my last thought on this.
00:11:34When you do that, you have to recognize there's a reason we run deficits of $2 trillion a
00:11:40year.
00:11:41There's a political reason.
00:11:42It is very hard to reduce spending.
00:11:45People become used to it.
00:11:47And when you take it away from them, whether that's the farmers in my home state of Kansas
00:11:51or healthcare programs or whatever, people go, oh my gosh, you're taking my stuff.
00:11:59And that is politically difficult to do, but very necessary to reprioritize and spend only
00:12:05what it is you can afford.
00:12:06And we haven't done that.
00:12:07And I hope President Trump and his entire team, not just DOJ folks, are successful at
00:12:15getting us closer to a spending level that we can continue to do all the things in the
00:12:20world we need to do.
00:12:21Yeah, but when you choose someone like Mr. Musk, a man is judged in a way by the company
00:12:26he keeps.
00:12:27I remember speaking to Bob Woodward of Washington Post and all the presidents went two months
00:12:31ago and he said the one distinctive feature of Donald Trump is he loves the company of
00:12:36billionaires.
00:12:37He loves big money.
00:12:38So therefore, even in his choice of Musk as a potential disruptor, someone who seems to
00:12:44make foreign, want to speak out on foreign policy on X, is that a wise decision?
00:12:50Does that suggest to you that Donald Trump chooses the right people for the right job?
00:12:55In his first term, there was this revolving door.
00:12:57People came in and left every six months.
00:13:00Is he the kind of person who likes to have flamboyant businessman billionaires around
00:13:06him?
00:13:07Yeah.
00:13:08Is that good?
00:13:10Is that the way you believe America should be seeing its place in the world?
00:13:14I just, I don't focus on people and noise.
00:13:19I focus on outcomes, like what gets delivered?
00:13:22What are the outcomes that result?
00:13:24I look at the first Trump administration and say, well, there were many things that we
00:13:30didn't accomplish.
00:13:31We didn't get Chairman Kim to give up his nuclear weapons.
00:13:33That was my file.
00:13:34We failed.
00:13:35I didn't accomplish the mission for President Trump.
00:13:38There were many things we didn't get done.
00:13:39But I look at it mostly and think, man, America was better off and I think the world better
00:13:44off.
00:13:45I think we'll find the same here as well.
00:13:47But that's what they should be judged by.
00:13:49Don't judge.
00:13:50So I know we had Secretary Lutnick a little bit earlier that you heard from.
00:13:55We've got Secretary Rubio, not a billionaire, right?
00:14:01So it's not all billionaires, don't mislead, right?
00:14:05It's not all billionaires that are around him.
00:14:08It's a mix of billionaires and sycophants is what Fareed Zakaria told me today.
00:14:11Either you've got to be a sycophant or a billionaire.
00:14:14No, I don't.
00:14:15I don't believe that's true at all.
00:14:17I disagree with that.
00:14:19As much as I like Fareed and as much as I dislike Bob Woodward – and I just – if
00:14:27Bob was sitting here, I'd say the same thing.
00:14:28I think Bob Woodward's books fundamentally are biased and aimed at destroying things
00:14:34that are really important.
00:14:37And so that's – I just think that's unfortunate.
00:14:38I've seen that at The Washington Post for years and years and years.
00:14:42They attacked the Trump administration relentlessly.
00:14:44They said that the President of the United States was a Russian asset.
00:14:48And we now all know that was false, and Bob Woodward was at the center of it.
00:14:52It was a lie, and he knew it, and he has not apologized for that, and he did enormous harm
00:14:57to the United States of America.
00:14:58So he can have his opinions, but he's just flat-out wrong.
00:15:03So I just – I would urge everyone, don't watch the noise, don't listen to the soundbites,
00:15:09don't follow tweet by tweet.
00:15:11Look at the things they actually do and deliver.
00:15:15If you don't like them or you want to debate them, that's completely fair game.
00:15:20But watch the throughlines, because there will be many of them, and they will prove
00:15:24to be remarkably consistent over time.
00:15:27I'm convinced of that.
00:15:28There'll be all the noise that you see on tariffs over the last week and a half, on
00:15:34the trying to reduce the size of the U.S. federal workforce.
00:15:37That'll all be out there.
00:15:39Watch the throughlines.
00:15:40And I'm convinced it'll put America and our partners, places like India, in good stead.
00:15:45Q Secretary Pompeo, the United States is supposed to be one of the world's great democracies.
00:15:52If the Indian prime minister were to invite a big billionaire to a call with an international
00:15:58head of state, it would lead to a major scandal.
00:16:03Are we seeing, during the second Trump presidency, the end of the idea of conflict of interest?
00:16:10You know, the emergence of crony capitalism at the centrifuge of this new American government
00:16:17and the fear that, you know, he's trying to dismantle one kind of deep state, which is
00:16:24those funding, say, transgender clinics in Hyderabad, but the potential takeover of a
00:16:29corporate deep state, which puts its business interests first in the hope of a payout four
00:16:35years from now.
00:16:36How real is this concern?
00:16:38How do you look at this?
00:16:40I think that's overblown.
00:16:42We'll see, I suppose.
00:16:44But my sense is fundamentally different than that.
00:16:48If you look at the – many of these billionaires have lost tons of money in the last week as
00:16:56a result of the tariffs that have been put in place.
00:16:58So if you're looking just to monetize, that's a bad way to do it, right?
00:17:02They are deeply invested.
00:17:03Look at Tesla's stock price, right?
00:17:06Elon Musk lost more money in a minute than this entire room's net worth.
00:17:11And so if they're trying to do that, it's an epic fail at this point.
00:17:16My sense is that's not what they're trying to do.
00:17:18If you look at the tax policy President Trump's trying to put in place, very important for
00:17:22U.S. economic growth to get that right, to extend the marginal tax rate reductions that
00:17:27were put in place.
00:17:29Those aren't remotely about corporate cronyism.
00:17:32Those are about flatlining for America's small and medium enterprises so they can grow
00:17:35and invest and so that foreign direct investment will flow into the country.
00:17:39So I'm untroubled.
00:17:41We've had wealthy people come into our government many times before.
00:17:46One of the reasons for that is those wealthy people are often very hardworking, very successful,
00:17:51and smarter than hell.
00:17:53And I am very hopeful that he's done the same thing again here.
00:17:56And again, proof's in the pudding.
00:17:59Two years, three years from now, we'll know whether the folks he chose this time to build
00:18:03his team around will have been able to deliver on his behalf.
00:18:06If he lives up to the commitments he made during the campaign, I think the people of
00:18:10India and the United States and the whole world will be happy.
00:18:13Okay.
00:18:14Speaking of India, mixed signals from President Donald Trump and White House.
00:18:20On the one hand, he really appreciates Prime Minister Modi.
00:18:23On the other hand, he held a press conference announcing reciprocal tariffs just ahead
00:18:29of his meeting with Prime Minister Modi.
00:18:32How does India deal with a Trump administration?
00:18:36What are the no's when you go into a room with Donald Trump?
00:18:39Because we've seen that during the Zelensky meeting, there are so many experts who have
00:18:44come, pontificated, he should not have done this, he should have done this.
00:18:47So tell us, what are the no's?
00:18:49And how does India deal with a Trump?
00:18:51I wouldn't begin to tell Prime Minister Modi how to deal with Donald Trump.
00:18:54He's done way better than my suggestions could ever have offered.
00:19:00They do have a lovely personal relationship, and that matters.
00:19:04But these are big countries, both of them, thriving economies, each of them, amazing
00:19:10partners, each of them.
00:19:11I think the relationship – actually, I credit the Biden administration in some ways, right?
00:19:15There were many things the Biden administration did on the U.S.-India relationship that I
00:19:18think were very good as well.
00:19:20I'm often critical of the Biden administration, but I credit them there.
00:19:24I think they built on some of the work that was done during the first four years of President
00:19:29Trump, and I'm hopeful President Trump will continue to build that out.
00:19:35A couple thoughts.
00:19:36One, you mentioned tariffs.
00:19:37I can't believe we're what, we're 20 minutes in and that was the first mention
00:19:40of tariffs, maybe other than I might have mentioned it.
00:19:44President Trump calls himself Tariff Man.
00:19:47We should all, you should all, the world should take seriously that he believes tariffs
00:19:51are a powerful tool to accomplish a number of different ends.
00:19:56One of those ends for him is he believes that bilateral trade deficits are bad.
00:20:01He would look at India and he would say you have too many of your industries, that you
00:20:05have too big barriers, both tariff and non-tariff barriers, to protect local domestic industries,
00:20:13and he'd say that's not fair.
00:20:16He would believe that.
00:20:17And he'd say so we ought to fix that.
00:20:18We ought to right that ship.
00:20:19Let's both get rid of our tariffs, let's both get rid of our barriers, and let's be great
00:20:23commercial partners together.
00:20:25That would be his theory of the case.
00:20:27And he is untroubled by saying, and if you don't do that, I'm going to impose tariffs
00:20:30on your products, your goods, even potentially services.
00:20:35And so you can expect that conversation.
00:20:39I know that your minister of commerce is in the United States I think still today having
00:20:46that conversation with our new U.S. trade representative and I'm sure with Secretary
00:20:51Lettnick as well.
00:20:52Here would be my thought on this economic piece in terms of how to engage.
00:20:56This isn't about human interaction.
00:20:58This is about how the nations ought to interact.
00:21:01There's legacy things.
00:21:02There's energy issues, there's agriculture issues.
00:21:05We're going to all slug our way through those things.
00:21:08The real place that our two nations ought to be just determined to go keep the free
00:21:14flow of trade and ideas of innovation, I would call it in the new tech, in these new innovative
00:21:20places where the West, India, the United States, Japan, South Korea, Europe, where we have
00:21:26to succeed as against the model that the Chinese Communist Party has, are in those spaces.
00:21:32And so what does that mean?
00:21:34That means real academic exchange, and that's people coming to study, people coming to work,
00:21:41American businesses investing here, Indian businesses investing in America in those new
00:21:46technologies.
00:21:47We need to make sure that there are as few barriers as possible in that space.
00:21:51That alone would be an amazing outcome for the United States and India, and I think President
00:21:56Trump is wide open to that.
00:21:59The second one that I would mention is on defense and security and the commercial elements
00:22:05around that.
00:22:06If we can get those right together, this will create lasting set of relationships.
00:22:14We're already training more together, we're already sharing more intelligence than was
00:22:19even being shared during my time as the CIA director.
00:22:22I think those all lead us down the right direction.
00:22:24If we can now get the defense, commercial, technical folks wide open, capable of working
00:22:30together, we can all be more prosperous and a hell of a lot more secure as well.
00:22:37But is India a priority?
00:22:39Very direct.
00:22:40Is India really a priority for this administration, particularly given the fact that there seems
00:22:46to be some kind of an obsession at one level with this great power game with China, that
00:22:51China is the real focus of Donald Trump 2.0, India is not a focus?
00:22:58I don't know how you think about, from an American perspective, I don't know how you
00:23:02think about China without thinking about India.
00:23:05I just, I don't, I don't, wouldn't see those as separate in any material way.
00:23:10There's elements that are purely bilateral, as between the United States and India.
00:23:13But when you think about America's efforts to ensure that the basic property rights,
00:23:20human dignity, all the things that the Chinese Communist Party disdains, for us to get those
00:23:25right is deeply connected to the success of you here in India.
00:23:32It's deeply connected to the success between the relationship between the United States
00:23:36and India.
00:23:37It is absolutely central.
00:23:38You are a, you are pivotal to that.
00:23:41So if you say it's a, it's not a priority, I just, I don't see how one, I don't see how
00:23:46one can, can get at A without having a successful B.
00:23:50No, is that Secretary Pompeo speaking or Donald Trump?
00:23:53Does Donald Trump want to do either a deal with China, which doesn't necessarily include
00:23:58India at all?
00:23:59That Donald Trump's priority is to somehow engage China first.
00:24:04Engage and compete.
00:24:06No, I, I, I don't, Donald Trump doesn't use the language that President Biden used, talked
00:24:11about them as a, you know, quasi-competitor.
00:24:15He understands China.
00:24:17He understands this presents an enormous threat to the American way of life.
00:24:21I think he deeply gets that.
00:24:23Secretary Rubio certainly does.
00:24:24The National Security Advisor, Mike Waltz, certainly does.
00:24:27Our, my, my, my successor's successor's successor at CIA, John Ratcliffe, certainly gets that.
00:24:33That team understands that we have to get that right and equally understands that without
00:24:40partners and allies, whether it's here, you, here in India, whether it's the Australians,
00:24:45the Japanese, the South Koreans, we, we, we can't be successful at the things that matter
00:24:52to the United States.
00:24:53I, I must say, I tried not to be annoyed when people took, took umbrage about with America
00:25:00first.
00:25:01Right?
00:25:02President Trump uses that language of America first.
00:25:04I'm pretty sure Prime Minister Modi puts India first.
00:25:08I'm pretty confident.
00:25:10He ought, he certainly ought to.
00:25:11The people of India will demand that from him, right, and properly so.
00:25:16And so don't, don't take offense when we put America first.
00:25:18It doesn't mean we're going to do this alone.
00:25:20We didn't.
00:25:21We built the quad.
00:25:22We, we worked diligently with our South Korean and Japanese friends to try and get them to
00:25:26talk to each other and share information between each other and build out an alliance, a structured
00:25:31strategy to protect the first island chain and the second island chain.
00:25:36It wasn't, it wasn't going to happen just with the United States.
00:25:39President Trump knows that.
00:25:40The team knows that.
00:25:41Secretary Pompeo, India and the United States have a very deep and wide relationship.
00:25:48Since the inauguration, the focus has relentlessly been on tariffs.
00:25:54And the concern is given the frictions on the issue of tariff and the constant barrage
00:25:59of attacks that we're seeing from different elements of the Trump administration, whether
00:26:03that takes away from the larger dimensions of the larger relationship between India and
00:26:09the United States on security, on critical technologies, on economy, because it's really
00:26:14come down purely from a businessman's perspective to the issue of trade and tariff.
00:26:19It's almost as if that's the only issue around which this relationship hinges at the moment.
00:26:24It might, it might get more attention today than, than the others, but I don't think for
00:26:30a moment that there's not a – it's not a full range of relationships.
00:26:34I am very confident that when your – the Indian counterparts for the new administration
00:26:41have met, they've talked about every one of those issues, whether it's Foreign Minister
00:26:45Jaishankar or your national security advisor or your legal team who's working on all kinds
00:26:53of complicated issues or the intelligence-sharing folks.
00:26:56I get it.
00:26:57The headline is this.
00:26:58You know, in the United States, it's really not just that.
00:27:01Think about what President Trump inherited.
00:27:02I mean, think about it.
00:27:04He walks in with an economy that's got massive inflation and a war in the Middle East, a
00:27:14war in Europe, none of which existed when he left four years earlier, right?
00:27:19He's got some other things that are probably modestly better than they were when he left,
00:27:24right?
00:27:25We were knee-deep in COVID, and so that too.
00:27:29But much of the legacy, the hangover from COVID is still out there.
00:27:33And so he has inherited a broad spectrum of challenges, and he is – and give him a break,
00:27:40right?
00:27:41It's 40-something days at this point.
00:27:42He is trying to sequence these things in a way that delivers on the commitments that
00:27:47he made.
00:27:48By the way, add to that all of the domestic issues that he's got to confront – an
00:27:52education system that is not delivering outcomes that are satisfactory for the American people.
00:27:58He's got – there's a lot of work to do.
00:28:01And so I got it.
00:28:02The headline news on the newspaper every day is tariffs, but make no mistake about it,
00:28:08he is trying to tackle six or eight major challenges, each of which he spoke to during
00:28:13the campaign and on which he made promises to the American people.
00:28:16In fact, not one, but there are two very important issues.
00:28:19Apart from tariff, it's the illegal immigration issue, how he's handled illegals.
00:28:25Nobody in India says that illegals should be welcomed in any country, Secretary Pompeo,
00:28:29but the way they were sent back is also a question.
00:28:32Was there a need to handcuff and shackle them?
00:28:35And even if that is done as standard operating procedure for security reasons, was there
00:28:40a need to make a video and put it out?
00:28:42What is the messaging over there?
00:28:44I'm sorry, a need to do what?
00:28:47Handcuffing and shackling the illegals who were sent back to their respective countries?
00:28:51How would you take a violent criminal back?
00:28:52No, even if they were – which is why I said even if they were, was there a need to videotape
00:28:57them and put the videos out there?
00:28:58What's the messaging?
00:28:59What's the modus operandi over here?
00:29:02I think that question's unfair.
00:29:05How would you turn over violent criminals?
00:29:07I'll bet you handcuffed them here in India as well.
00:29:09Yeah, but they're not violent criminals.
00:29:10They were just illegal.
00:29:11Many of them – no, no.
00:29:12Most of them were just farmers.
00:29:13No, no, no.
00:29:14No, no, no.
00:29:15No, that's not true.
00:29:16That's not true.
00:29:17No, most of the folks who went back initially were in our prisons.
00:29:21They were not only violent, they were convicted criminals.
00:29:27Many of the first trips back were made up solely of those.
00:29:31And so I'm untroubled by that.
00:29:34And by the way, if we hadn't videotaped it, the world would say, I wonder why they're
00:29:36not showing us what's going on.
00:29:39What mystery?
00:29:40It must be some Donald Trump trick, right?
00:29:43I lived this, right?
00:29:45So fair enough.
00:29:47Having said that, there's no doubt about this.
00:29:49I'll concede this way.
00:29:50President Trump is absolutely trying to send a message.
00:29:54He is absolutely sending a message to anyone who's contemplating coming to the United
00:29:58States illegally.
00:30:00Do not come.
00:30:01You will be returned to your home country.
00:30:05This is a different model than we had for four years.
00:30:08And so I concede this point.
00:30:10Donald – I mean, he tweets it.
00:30:13I don't have to tell you.
00:30:15He deeply believes that our immigration system fundamentally was broken for four years, and
00:30:20that it was the choice of President Biden to allow all these people to enter our country
00:30:24illegally, making it damn near impossible to come to our country lawfully.
00:30:30And he wants to fix that.
00:30:31And he – by the way, he will fix this.
00:30:33President Biden said, you can't do it, you need a new law, it's impossible to protect
00:30:38our border.
00:30:39In days, President Trump shuts this down.
00:30:43I mean, it's stunning, and nobody says to President Biden, why did you lie to the American
00:30:47people and tell them it couldn't be done?
00:30:48Like, go talk to President Biden about that.
00:30:51We knew.
00:30:52We built out a model in the first term, and it took us two and a half years, and President
00:30:56Trump was able to grab that same model early on here because we'd seen it, and we now
00:31:01have good – not good enough, but better control of who's coming in and out of our
00:31:06country.
00:31:08And that's important for every nation.
00:31:10You do this here in India – by the way, there's no other country in the world that
00:31:15will take as many lawful immigrants this year as the United States of America.
00:31:20And so I get how the world stares at this and says, oh my gosh, this is so mean.
00:31:25This is necessary to protect American sovereignty, and every nation has that responsibility.
00:31:30And President Trump's going to deliver on that commitment.
00:31:33Let me turn then from there to another sensitive issue.
00:31:38Secretary Pompeo, there are investigations underway on murder from higher charges against
00:31:43Indian officials in the United States as we speak.
00:31:46As a CIA director and the former Secretary of State, you work closely on such matters.
00:31:52How do you see this case pan out?
00:31:54Khalistanis are a real concern for India.
00:31:57Will the Trump administration crack down on Khalistanis, or will you continue with
00:32:02Biden's policy?
00:32:04Because that's an issue that concerns Indian sovereignty.
00:32:07Just as you said, illegal immigration concerns American sovereignty.
00:32:11How do you see a sensitive case like this panning out now?
00:32:16Yeah, I don't want to say much about this, but my guess is the policy will be different.
00:32:23And I'll just – I'll literally – I'm going to leave it at that.
00:32:25I know a little bit about it.
00:32:27Will there be a crackdown?
00:32:28Let me – your sense.
00:32:29I don't want to – I don't know.
00:32:31I don't know the answer to that.
00:32:32Do you hope there should be?
00:32:33Do you believe there should be?
00:32:34I don't want to say anything.
00:32:35I want to leave them a chance to sort of evaluate this on their own.
00:32:38It's a very sensitive political issue, and I'm just a civilian.
00:32:41So when a former CIA director says that the policy is likely to be different, but I don't
00:32:46want to say very much about it, I think all of us need to start looking and reading between
00:32:50the lines.
00:32:51So we'll take our cues from that.
00:32:52I'd be careful in over-reading that, but knock yourself out.
00:32:56We want to pivot, Secretary Pompeo, to Russia and Ukraine.
00:33:00Now, since the time of the USSR, Russia has been the mortal enemy of the United States,
00:33:06and yet somehow we see President Trump treat his country's enemies as his friend, or
00:33:14being on friendly terms, and friends virtually as enemies.
00:33:18Now whether this is a Mexico or a Canada or friends in the European Union or Zelensky
00:33:23in Ukraine, he's tougher on his friends than he is on his enemies.
00:33:31I'm not sure that's true.
00:33:35Time will tell.
00:33:36I do have some differences from President Trump on this.
00:33:39Personally, I would have done some of these things differently, but I'm not sure that
00:33:43statement's true.
00:33:44By the way, I remember I had a boss one time who I thought was being unfair to me, and
00:33:48he says, you know, I'm always meanest to my best employees.
00:33:52So right, the people who I actually think I can actually impact, I can change them,
00:33:56I can make them even better, and they kind of write off some of the others.
00:33:59So careful.
00:34:01You may want to be close to President Trump, because he does value engagement and people
00:34:05who actually will interact with him in a serious way, and Vladimir Putin's not going to do
00:34:10that.
00:34:11Let me – two thoughts on this.
00:34:14One, if I were Vladimir Putin, I would not be counting on the fact that you're going
00:34:20to have a friendly President Trump.
00:34:22I would not be building my strategy around that.
00:34:26And Mike, why do you say that?
00:34:27Go look at the first four years of President Trump.
00:34:32The story was he was a Russian asset, right?
00:34:34CNN would tell you every morning on live TV, oh my gosh, he was in a hotel room.
00:34:40It was a fraud.
00:34:41It was a complete fraud.
00:34:42That same story is now rising again.
00:34:44He's friends with Vladimir Putin.
00:34:46Careful.
00:34:47It didn't turn out that way.
00:34:48We put more sanctions on Russia.
00:34:50We unleashed American energy, crushing the Russian energy economy.
00:34:55We provided defensive weapons systems to the Ukrainians, which President Obama had refused
00:35:00to do.
00:35:01And here's the best evidence that we were tough on Vladimir Putin.
00:35:05How much Ukrainian real estate did Vladimir Putin take on our watch, on our four-year
00:35:10watch?
00:35:11None.
00:35:12But that's in the past.
00:35:13No, no, no.
00:35:14Let's talk about what's happening now.
00:35:15Vladimir Putin is laughing, saying –
00:35:17You can't walk away from the history.
00:35:19You can't pretend you wouldn't have said the same thing to me seven years ago.
00:35:23You would have.
00:35:24You would have said, oh my gosh, he looks like he's cozying up with Vladimir.
00:35:26Didn't you see?
00:35:27He trusts him more than he trusts the American intelligence services.
00:35:30I know because you wrote it, right?
00:35:34Just don't overread.
00:35:35Just watch what takes place.
00:35:36So, but weapons supplies and aid have been frozen to Ukraine.
00:35:39Vladimir Putin and his generals and oligarchs are laughing, saying, thank you, Donald Trump,
00:35:44for what you're doing.
00:35:45And he puts us in the battlefield.
00:35:46We'll see.
00:35:47I wouldn't be laughing if I were them.
00:35:49Are you saying he doesn't –
00:35:50I wouldn't.
00:35:51Who saved Ukraine, Barack Obama or Donald Trump?
00:35:55Just – someone answer that for me.
00:35:59But you're talking of the past.
00:36:00You're talking about –
00:36:01When did he take Ukraine?
00:36:02Did he do it under Donald Trump?
00:36:04Did he take Crimea under Donald Trump?
00:36:06Does anybody – no.
00:36:07No, he didn't.
00:36:08You have to acknowledge – you can't pretend to ease away and just get all fantasized about
00:36:12some tweet.
00:36:14You – it's just – I regret that the whole world misunderstands the model.
00:36:21And I'm convinced that in the end, President Trump will completely deliver exactly on what
00:36:28it is he said he would do.
00:36:29Go look at the first tweet he said about Russia as after he was inaugurated.
00:36:35He reminded Vladimir Putin that there could be real costs.
00:36:38That hasn't gone away.
00:36:39So how does President Trump then see Putin?
00:36:45Does he see him as a political strongman who deserves his sphere of influence in Europe?
00:36:51There's much talk that America is returning to some kind of a 19th century Monroe Doctrine
00:36:56isolationist at one level, expansionist when it comes to a Greenland, a Panama, areas in
00:37:02and around America.
00:37:03How does he actually see leaders like Donald Trump?
00:37:06Does he, from your experience, secretly admire political strongmen who the rest of the world
00:37:13will see as dictators and autocrats?
00:37:15Yeah, the question misses the point.
00:37:20I have enormous respect for Vladimir Putin too.
00:37:23I have respect for lots of leaders who I just despise and are evil and who kill people.
00:37:28I sat with Chairman Kim.
00:37:30I still respected him, right?
00:37:32He was the leader of North Korea.
00:37:34He was a very powerful person with nuclear weapons.
00:37:37One must respect that.
00:37:38It doesn't mean – you used the term admire.
00:37:41I didn't admire him.
00:37:43I would just – right?
00:37:45I thought he was indecent.
00:37:46As a Christian, I knew he was inhuman and evil.
00:37:49But you still can – you can still acknowledge that Vladimir Putin is the leader of that
00:37:53nation with a powerful nuclear capability, a military that is still, in spite of all
00:37:58that they have suffered, is still a pretty powerful military force on a global scale.
00:38:04And you know, President Trump's model, right, I'll never forget, right, he talked about
00:38:08love letters between him and Chairman Kim.
00:38:12This is a guy who put the harshest sanctions on North Korea in all of recorded civilizational
00:38:18history.
00:38:19Just – I got it.
00:38:21It looks like you're struggling to get your mind around this.
00:38:23I get it.
00:38:24Please, be creative.
00:38:27Be creative.
00:38:28Acknowledge that you can both – you can both say, oh, yeah, he's a nice guy, and
00:38:33then crush him, right?
00:38:34It's just –
00:38:35But that's not happening.
00:38:36Take out from what Raul said.
00:38:37That's not actually happening.
00:38:38Actually, what we see on the ground at the moment is Russia getting an advantage from
00:38:39what's happened in the last couple of weeks.
00:38:40No, no, no.
00:38:41Oh, no, no.
00:38:42No, no, no.
00:38:43No, no, no.
00:38:44No, no, no.
00:38:45No, no, no.
00:38:46That's unfair.
00:38:47No, but let's be very clear.
00:38:48President Biden epically failed.
00:38:49NATO epically failed.
00:38:50This is a failure of NATO.
00:38:51You allowed an invasion by Vladimir Putin into Ukraine.
00:39:00President Trump did not allow that invasion.
00:39:04This is unfair.
00:39:05President Biden then for months and months and – by the way, President Biden's the
00:39:10one who withdrew from Afghanistan and created the debacle that was Afghanistan, not President
00:39:15Trump.
00:39:16And that emboldened Vladimir.
00:39:18Those are the kinds of things that signal to world leaders that you're weak and that
00:39:22you'll allow this to happen.
00:39:23Only the grace of God kept Kiev from being the frontline for the Ukrainian-Russian battle.
00:39:30And that's because of a failure of NATO and President Biden, not President Trump.
00:39:34And so when you say, oh, these last weeks, I'm like, where were you for four years
00:39:38criticizing President Biden for refusing to provide F-16s, which I think they should have
00:39:43done, for telling the Ukrainians, yeah, you can have our weapons, but you can only fire
00:39:47them on your own soil.
00:39:48That is, you can have a missile, but you can only land in your country.
00:39:52Like, when's – like, that's essentially the proposition that the Biden administration
00:39:56put forward for four years.
00:39:57That's a – until the last months where he said, yeah, now you can fire one in only
00:40:01100 meters, but I want to be really careful and I don't want anything to do with it,
00:40:04right?
00:40:05I mean, come on.
00:40:06Like, you all – people lose their minds with Donald Trump.
00:40:10Look at the reality, the actual actions, and see the outcomes that were delivered, and
00:40:15I have every expectation we'll continue to deliver them.
00:40:17Secretary Pompeo, it's a matter of fact that it is Vladimir Putin and the Russian
00:40:22generals that took the infantry and tanks into Ukraine.
00:40:27Vladimir Zelensky and the Ukrainian army did not start the Russia-Ukraine war.
00:40:33If we hear from some of what has been said by the Trump administration in the recent
00:40:38days, it would almost seem as if Russia entering Ukraine was Zelensky and Ukraine's fault
00:40:44and not Putin's fault.
00:40:45SECRETARY POMPEO Yeah, I completely agree.
00:40:48This is one man or one man and his leadership team.
00:40:52They invaded.
00:40:53They're the aggressor.
00:40:54They're the evil forces.
00:40:55They're the ones that have killed scores and scores, thousands of civilians.
00:40:59I concede the – I don't believe for a second that Vladimir Putin's story that
00:41:04is, oh my gosh, NATO got too close, I got nervous and had to invade –
00:41:07MS.
00:41:08PSAKI Right.
00:41:09He did get too close.
00:41:10SECRETARY POMPEO I don't – he's had NATO on his border
00:41:11for an awfully long time.
00:41:13So that's not why he didn't – Vladimir Putin no more thought NATO was going to invade
00:41:16Russia than a man in the moon, right?
00:41:18So I don't buy that narrative.
00:41:20By the way, some in my party do, right?
00:41:21So even – not to forget Trump – many Republicans have that same narrative that says NATO expanded
00:41:27too far too fast and caused Vladimir Putin to have to do this.
00:41:31I just simply disagree with that.
00:41:33Vladimir Putin has wanted to restore the Soviet Union since he was a young man.
00:41:36MR.
00:41:37PSAKI Okay.
00:41:38QUESTION Even as the conversation is going, we've
00:41:39just had a tweet from Donald Trump where Donald Trump says –
00:41:42SECRETARY POMPEO There you go.
00:41:43This is a great example.
00:41:44I have no idea what's in this tweet, but you all can't put your phones in your pocket
00:41:48for 20 minutes and without getting nervous about a tweet.
00:41:52So knock yourself out.
00:41:53Go ahead.
00:41:54Read it to me.
00:41:55QUESTION Donald Trump has just said, based on the
00:41:56fact that Russia is absolutely pounding Ukraine on the battlefield right now, I am strongly
00:42:03considering large-scale banking sanctions and tariffs on Russia until a ceasefire and
00:42:09final settlement agreement on peace is reached.
00:42:14To Russia and Ukraine, get to the table right now before it is too late.
00:42:20Is this serious?
00:42:21Is he just simply trying to grab attention?
00:42:23How do we interpret tweets like this from the U.S. President?
00:42:26MS.
00:42:27PSAKI Can I just add here, I think he's just validated
00:42:29Pompeo's remarks.
00:42:30SECRETARY POMPEO I must say, I must say, I couldn't –
00:42:33MS.
00:42:34PSAKI Secretary Pompeo just said that.
00:42:35Just a while ago.
00:42:36SECRETARY POMPEO I couldn't – I couldn't have – like,
00:42:37that timing is like killer.
00:42:38I'm going to have to write him a note and thank him.
00:42:39Yeah.
00:42:40By the way, I said to you before we came out here, while we're on stage, there'll probably
00:42:44be some.
00:42:45Who knows?
00:42:46Look –
00:42:47MR.
00:42:48RAHMAN You told him what to say before you came here.
00:42:49It'll make my life easier.
00:42:50SECRETARY POMPEO I never told President Trump what to say.
00:42:51MR.
00:42:52RAHMAN No, but is this noise – is this noise, Secretary?
00:42:53SECRETARY POMPEO No, that's not – I don't – I don't
00:42:55know.
00:42:57Here's how you'll know if it's noise.
00:42:59Will sanctions be put in place?
00:43:02Don't follow the tweet.
00:43:03Watch the policy line, right?
00:43:06So he's signaling, right?
00:43:08He's speaking.
00:43:09He's negotiating, right?
00:43:11But what you need to watch is what do they actually do.
00:43:14And I'll give you the classic example.
00:43:16This is the – this is what's different.
00:43:19President Biden would literally say, we're going to put on sanctions.
00:43:23And does anybody think that the Russian economy has suffered?
00:43:28The GDP of Russia grew faster than the American GDP for the last two and a half years, maybe
00:43:33three, right?
00:43:34So President Biden would talk about, I'm going to be tough, and he'd go to Brussels
00:43:38and say – nobody believed it.
00:43:42Did you believe it?
00:43:43Did anybody fear President Biden?
00:43:44Right?
00:43:45No.
00:43:46MS.
00:43:47RAHMAN Because he had trusted partners.
00:43:48Russia has trusted partners in China and some others.
00:43:49SECRETARY POMPEO Right.
00:43:50And so my point would be, my point would be if President Trump says he's going to put
00:43:52on sanctions, we do.
00:43:55We took the Iranians down to – by the way, your government wasn't particularly happy.
00:43:59We told you you had to stop buying Iranian oil.
00:44:02And my guess is that's going to happen again as well.
00:44:05But put the Iranian file aside for a second.
00:44:08When President Trump did that, put those sanctions – because we actually enforced them.
00:44:11We meant it.
00:44:12And my guess is if you watch the policy line here, the through line here, it won't surprise
00:44:17me about what he'll actually do that.
00:44:20And Putin will have to contend with that.
00:44:23Not a tweet.
00:44:24He doesn't have to contend with tweets.
00:44:25He'll have to contend with the fact that now it is harder for them to move money – I
00:44:29don't know what will fall – through the SWIFT system, right, the logical follow-on
00:44:33to a statement like that.
00:44:35Through SWIFT will be more difficult.
00:44:36And that will impose real costs on Russia.
00:44:37MR.
00:44:38RAHMAN Secretary Pompeo, since you work with Donald Trump, give everyone sitting here scratching
00:44:42their head, tearing their head apart some tips.
00:44:45How do you know when Donald Trump is serious and when he's not?
00:44:48SECRETARY POMPEO Yeah.
00:44:49I don't do psychology.
00:44:50I just – that's silly.
00:44:51Everyone wants to talk – stop, stop.
00:44:57Just watch the actions that get taken.
00:45:00This is the thing that gets missed.
00:45:02Everyone wants to do psychoanalysis instead of doing rational policy planning.
00:45:08And it's possible to do.
00:45:10And the way you do it is you watch the actual – look, the tariff thing is disturbing to
00:45:17people because he has moved one forward and one back and then forward and then back.
00:45:23So I get how that's created enormous volatility in markets, enormous geopolitical uncertainty.
00:45:29I appreciate that, and I regret that.
00:45:32I think a more consistent through-line there would have been better.
00:45:35But what I think you're witnessing is he's trying to gauge how far and how fast he can
00:45:43achieve the change that he's seeking to get as a policy matter.
00:45:48So I would just suggest watch the actions that get taken.
00:45:52Commerce will take actions.
00:45:53In this case, it'd be state, treasury, and commerce that will take the actions.
00:45:58Watch the actual actions that they put into place.
00:46:01They'll come pretty fast.
00:46:02You don't have to wait long.
00:46:03MR.
00:46:04PALLADINO Can I give you an example?
00:46:05SECRETARY POMPEO I don't know.
00:46:06Can you?
00:46:07MR.
00:46:08PALLADINO When U.S. President Donald Trump stuns the
00:46:09world in the morning by saying Gaza should become like the Riviera, we should all have
00:46:14– the world should come to Gaza.
00:46:17I want it to be the new Riviera.
00:46:20Should we – should Palestinians across the world, Middle East countries all look at that
00:46:27statement and wonder which world is Donald Trump living in?
00:46:31Is that the way to look at – is he playing some kind of a giant rope trick on the world
00:46:36when you say don't psychoanalyze it?
00:46:38The world will analyze a U.S. President saying Gaza should become –
00:46:40SECRETARY POMPEO Of course.
00:46:41Of course.
00:46:42They can't – they can't help themselves.
00:46:43But stay busier on more productive things.
00:46:44That would be my wisdom.
00:46:45MR.
00:46:46PALLADINO Right.
00:46:47SECRETARY POMPEO What was he – what was he communicating there?
00:46:49In Trumpian fashion, I will concede, not Pompeo fashion.
00:46:51I would do this differently.
00:46:53What was he communicating there?
00:46:56This place is terrible for the human beings that live there and has been since 2006 since
00:47:01the Israelis left.
00:47:03And I don't like that.
00:47:04I want it to be different.
00:47:05I want them to have a better life.
00:47:08That's what he was – the people that live in Gaza, right, that's what he was communicating
00:47:13there.
00:47:14He's like, you all have lived under the jackboot of the Iranians.
00:47:17They call themselves Hamas, but they're funded by the Iranians.
00:47:20And you had – you've lived in poverty, you've lived in squalor, and you've lived
00:47:25without governance, and you've lived under the threat of terror.
00:47:28And your life isn't as good as it ought to be.
00:47:31And I want it to be better.
00:47:32MR.
00:47:33BROOKS No, there's enormous –
00:47:34MR.
00:47:35POMPEO No, there's enormous –
00:47:36MR.
00:47:37BROOKS No, there's enormous –
00:47:38MR.
00:47:39POMPEO No, there's enormous –
00:47:40MR.
00:47:41BROOKS No, there's enormous –
00:47:42MR.
00:47:43POMPEO No, there's enormous –
00:47:44MR.
00:47:45BROOKS No, there's enormous –
00:47:46MR.
00:47:47POMPEO No, there's enormous –
00:47:48MR.
00:47:49BROOKS No, there's enormous –
00:47:50MR.
00:47:51BROOKS No, there's enormous –
00:47:52MR.
00:47:53POMPEO No, there's enormous –
00:47:54MR.
00:47:55BROOKS No, there's enormous –
00:47:56MR.
00:47:57BROOKS No, there's enormous –
00:47:58MR.
00:47:59BROOKS No, there's enormous –
00:48:00MR.
00:48:01BROOKS No, there's enormous –
00:48:02MR.
00:48:03BROOKS No, there's enormous –
00:48:04MR.
00:48:05BROOKS No, there's enormous –
00:48:06MR.
00:48:07BROOKS No, there's enormous –
00:48:08MR.
00:48:09BROOKS No, there's enormous –
00:48:10MR.
00:48:11BROOKS No, there's enormous –
00:48:12MR.
00:48:13BROOKS No, there's enormous –
00:48:14MR.
00:48:15BROOKS No, there's enormous –
00:48:16MR.
00:48:17BROOKS No, there's enormous –
00:48:18MR.
00:48:19BROOKS No, there's enormous –
00:48:20MR.
00:48:21BROOKS No, there's enormous –
00:48:22MR.
00:48:23BROOKS No, there's enormous –
00:48:24MR.
00:48:25BROOKS No, there's enormous –
00:48:26MR.
00:48:27BROOKS No, there's enormous –
00:48:28MR.
00:48:29BROOKS No, there's enormous –
00:48:30MR.
00:48:31BRADLEY So there is a lot that is beyond just land,
00:48:35and he's been imperialistic in his policy, in his statements when it comes to Denmark,
00:48:41when it comes to Greenland, so much more.
00:48:45How can his allies since World War II, American allies, really trust him?
00:48:50This is the first time we are seeing Europe not being able to trust America.
00:48:54MR.
00:48:55Well, you just covered the whole world, and I'm not sure where to begin to unpack it.
00:49:03President Trump does view the world through an economic lens.
00:49:06He views the connection between the economies of nations and the interaction of those economies
00:49:12as an absolute imperative to deliver geostrategic security.
00:49:16He doesn't see them as separate spaces.
00:49:18By the way, I mostly agree with him on that.
00:49:22That is absolutely true.
00:49:25So I don't know where you want me to begin.
00:49:27I'm happy to begin with what he's thinking about in the Middle East.
00:49:30Here's what he's thinking in the Middle East.
00:49:31He's thinking Iran is bad, Israel is a close ally and partner, the Gulf Arab states are
00:49:36really important, and the poor Palestinians have been trampled on by the Iranians for
00:49:41decades and we ought to try to fix that.
00:49:43There's the model.
00:49:45That's how the Abraham Accords developed, with the same model, put enormous pressure
00:49:50on the Iranian economy.
00:49:52We took a strike on one of their senior leaders to protect American interests.
00:49:56The Iranians are still trying to kill me as a result of that.
00:50:00It was absolutely a righteous thing to do.
00:50:03It was the right thing.
00:50:05The whole world took note of that, that the United States was no longer going to do what
00:50:09President Obama had done and said, well, I might strike in Syria, I might not.
00:50:12Let me go talk to 74 people and then wander around the Oval Office a little bit and – he
00:50:19just made a decision and we did the right thing for the world and made the world a safer
00:50:23place.
00:50:24I think that's still what he's trying to do.
00:50:26And so he stares at Gaza and says, let's understand this.
00:50:31On campuses in America they say that it's been occupied.
00:50:34This is occupied territory.
00:50:36There hasn't been an Israeli in Gaza in 20 years and it's not occupied and it's
00:50:43hell on earth for the human beings that are living there.
00:50:45Let's go try to make it better.
00:50:47We have this opportunity now.
00:50:49They committed a massacre on October 7th.
00:50:52The Israelis have responded to that.
00:50:54They have diminished Iranian capacity to influence Gaza.
00:50:57Now let's see if we can't make it better.
00:51:00That's what he's – and by the way, maintain Israeli security, maintain Gulf Arab state
00:51:05security, both in Gaza, in Syria, where the regime has now fallen.
00:51:10Do the same thing in Judea and Samaria and the West Bank.
00:51:13That's the mission set.
00:51:14So I'm guessing he will go back and do – I think Trump's second term with respect
00:51:21to Middle East policy will look the same, all aimed at what I view as an incredibly
00:51:25empathetic outcome.
00:51:26You said there was no empathy.
00:51:27That's indecent of you to suggest such a thing.
00:51:29No, it truly is.
00:51:31It's indecent because there's nothing empathetic about allowing Hamas to reestablish
00:51:37authority there.
00:51:39That is, you talk about no empathy for those human beings, to allow those terrorists to
00:51:44destroy the lives of the Palestinians living in Gaza, that's the most indecent thing
00:51:48a human being could possibly imagine, in my view.
00:51:51Secretary Pompeo, we have seven minutes left.
00:51:54I want your reading of Xi Jinping's mind and the military posturing of the People's
00:52:00Liberation Army and Navy.
00:52:02Several military officers at very senior levels in the United States have spoken of
00:52:082027 as being the year when the PLNL makes a go for Taiwan.
00:52:14Do you think that during the second Trump presidency, there is a high – how would
00:52:18you evaluate it on the scale of probability that the People's Liberation Army will
00:52:22make a military offensive on Taiwan?
00:52:25And as you best understand it, if this were to happen, given that you worked with Donald
00:52:29Trump, will Donald Trump and the United States live up to its commitment of coming to the
00:52:34military aid of Taiwan, or will they just sit back because they're more interested
00:52:38in Greenland?
00:52:39SECRETARY POMPEO So I can answer the second one more easily
00:52:41than the first.
00:52:42The second one is yes, there's no doubt the United States will assist in the defense
00:52:47of Taiwan.
00:52:48There's a – I've seen this play out too many times.
00:52:52Japan will immediately be involved.
00:52:54This gets big, vast, ugly, but there's no winner to this thing.
00:52:57I'm sorry, anybody knows if there's a – if the Chinese actually engage militarily
00:53:02in Taiwan, it's a bad day for the whole world because the entire global economy comes
00:53:06to a halt.
00:53:08Because once TSMC stops delivering chips to India, your economy is done.
00:53:13And it's – I've seen different versions of this, and some of it's classified, but
00:53:17suffice it to say 90 days.
00:53:21And so we all need to be sure that that doesn't happen, that deterrence is sufficient to prevent
00:53:27this, which gets to your first part, which gets to your first part.
00:53:30I actually think that the risk is far greater than that, because I think Xi Jinping is smart
00:53:35enough not to do what I just described, because he needs TSMC too.
00:53:39His economy comes to a grinding halt as well.
00:53:42And so the real – and so I understand these couple generals and an admiral who said 2027,
00:53:48and I get their logic.
00:53:51It's possible they could be right.
00:53:54By the way, the Chinese invasion of Taiwan could have begun while we're sitting here.
00:53:57It's possible.
00:54:00I think Xi Jinping's smarter than that.
00:54:02I think he thinks he can do there what he did in Hong Kong and use propaganda, political
00:54:08influence, economic shaping, scare off Vietnam, Singapore, even India, right, say, no, you
00:54:18guys need to back off, give me space, and then he can come to control it politically
00:54:23without having to ever fire a shot.
00:54:24Can he do that?
00:54:25Do you think by coercion –
00:54:26It depends how we all respond.
00:54:29So it's not the answer is can he do it?
00:54:31The answer is depends how we all deal with him.
00:54:33How is President Trump likely to respond?
00:54:35I hope that we all respond by making very clear to him that that is unacceptable, that
00:54:40the United States can't live with that, that political outcome.
00:54:45And by the way, one of my great regrets as Secretary of State is that Hong Kong became
00:54:49unfree on my watch.
00:54:52And I think we could have done more and didn't.
00:54:55Maybe we couldn't have stopped it forever.
00:54:56Different situation.
00:54:57Hong Kong and Taiwan are not perfect parallels.
00:54:59I will concede that.
00:55:00But I think we could have kept freedom there a little longer.
00:55:03And we should do all the things necessary to make sure and maintain that.
00:55:07And there's a long list – I don't have time or the clock's running, but there's
00:55:11a long list of things that we collectively can do, including all the joint military exercises
00:55:16that India and the United States are doing together.
00:55:18They are very important to send signals about political interference, not only in Taiwan,
00:55:23but in the Philippines, in Vietnam, in Malaysia, in Indonesia, all throughout Asia and Southeast
00:55:28Asia.
00:55:29Very important.
00:55:30So do you believe that Donald Trump, therefore, is committed to that original vision that
00:55:35America had post-World War II in particular of playing some kind of a global policeman
00:55:42or working with global partners, Quad being an example of it?
00:55:46Is he really committed to that, or do you see Donald Trump becoming over time more and
00:55:51more inward-looking?
00:55:52You mentioned the domestic challenges that he has, and his entire coalition was built
00:55:57around MAGA, around Make America Great Again.
00:56:00Given that, are we going to see conceptually Donald Trump becoming over time more and more
00:56:05inward-looking or committed to these strategic alliances?
00:56:09He's walked out of the climate change – out of Paris.
00:56:12He's taken America out of WHO.
00:56:16Could he take America out of certain strategic alliances, or is he still committed to that
00:56:22vision of America as a global policeman?
00:56:25I don't see them as – you described them as A or B. I don't see it remotely that way.
00:56:32You can't make America great again without successful partners around the world.
00:56:37And I think President Trump demonstrated in his first term, he understood that as well
00:56:40and still does.
00:56:42He has a deep Jacksonian streak to him, and that may not mean as much to an Indian audience,
00:56:47but a deep streak which says we've got to get this thing – without the American economy
00:56:53cranked up, I can't be a good partner to the world, and I think that's largely true.
00:56:59There is this – and you have to be a little careful with the language – but there is
00:57:03this populist streak to what he's doing, and I have a definition of populism that might
00:57:08be a little bit different.
00:57:10I'm proud to say I have a populist streak in my own thinking as well, so I don't view
00:57:13this as a cuss word.
00:57:16But if you ask the question – I mean, look at his first days, how much time he's worked,
00:57:21how many foreign leaders he's met.
00:57:22I mean, he's met more foreign leaders in his first six weeks than President Biden did,
00:57:27I think, in the first year.
00:57:29So when you talk about being engaged with the globe, President Trump – by the way,
00:57:33he met with more foreign leaders before he took office, which I actually am a little
00:57:36troubled by.
00:57:37It's deeply outside of the American tradition.
00:57:40But he did, because we, frankly, had a president who wasn't engaged in the world for the last
00:57:46six months.
00:57:47And does he take advice?
00:57:48And who does he take advice from?
00:57:50Is he a lone ranger, as some see him, this populist, political strongman, or is there
00:57:56a team that he takes advice from?
00:57:59He listens to everyone.
00:58:01Is he a good listener?
00:58:03No.
00:58:04But neither am I.
00:58:05Right.
00:58:06Is he a good listener?
00:58:07I don't even know what that means.
00:58:13President Trump will always be communicating, right?
00:58:15But if you're asking, does he take on board thoughts and ideas from other people, the
00:58:20answer is I saw it every day and always.
00:58:23Secretary Pompeo, given everything that you've seen –
00:58:25By the way, it didn't mean he didn't agree with me, right?
00:58:27I'd say, here's what I think.
00:58:28He'd go, yeah, yeah, that's a good point.
00:58:29That's not what we're doing.
00:58:30Good attention span?
00:58:31Does he have a strong attention span?
00:58:34He is at least in charge of President Biden for the last two years.
00:58:38Does he love flattery, as we are told?
00:58:40He loves to be flattered?
00:58:41Do you love flattering?
00:58:42Rajdeep loves flattery.
00:58:43Not really.
00:58:44Really?
00:58:45I do.
00:58:46I do.
00:58:47I'm guilty.
00:58:48No, I don't.
00:58:49I don't.
00:58:50I'm told the way to Donald Trump's heart, as Stahmer showed in his meeting, is keep
00:58:54praising Donald Trump.
00:58:55True?
00:58:56I don't know.
00:58:57Again, I don't do psychoanalysis.
00:58:58You do psychoanalysis.
00:58:59Secretary Pompeo, I have a question which I want to ask you.
00:59:01Given what you've seen and what you know, what do you make of the fact that the People's
00:59:06Liberation Army amassed in great numbers against the Indian Army along the Line of Actual Control?
00:59:13What do you make of the military mind and the thinking of the PLA?
00:59:17Because so much has been debated in India about why they did it, why they've pulled
00:59:21back, and what happens next.
00:59:23It's a good question.
00:59:27I don't think there's any doubt that the PLA and the senior strategic security apparatus
00:59:33inside of China is following Xi Jinping's model intently, which is to test and to probe
00:59:40and to see who's going to respond and how they're going to respond.
00:59:44Are they prepared to commit their own forces?
00:59:46The skirmish in the Himalayas happened while I was the Secretary of State.
00:59:52And so I think they're testing and they're probing.
00:59:54I think they're doing that along the land-based boundaries with you all.
00:59:59I think they're doing it in the sea-based boundaries with nearly every nation.
01:00:03I think you're seeing them press in Africa, not just commercially.
01:00:08We've seen greater Chinese military presence in South America.
01:00:12So not just commercial, which was for 15, 20 years, it was political commercial, right?
01:00:18Influence leveraged through commercial.
01:00:19Now you're seeing generals show up and arms sales take place.
01:00:25So yes.
01:00:26What happens next between India and China?
01:00:28I don't know.
01:00:29It depends on how India responds.
01:00:31If India is strong and bold as they were in that moment, I think Xi Jinping will take
01:00:36that for – these folks are serious.
01:00:39By the way, I'm counting on their continuing to be U.S. support for that mission set, as
01:00:43there was during that time.
01:00:46And if we get that right, I'm convinced we can push back against not only the PLA,
01:00:50but remember, the primary tools of power that Xi Jinping uses – we see the military stuff,
01:00:58we see the ships at sea.
01:00:59What are they?
01:01:00They're economic and they're propaganda, right?
01:01:03The United Front is operating here inside of India and inside the United States to convince
01:01:08the people of India that you all ought to just give up, that we're going to rule the
01:01:12world anyway, so just why fight it?
01:01:15Just start speaking Mandarin, right?
01:01:17That's the same storyline they're telling all across the world, and we have to resist
01:01:21that, and we can.
01:01:22Right.
01:01:23Time's up, but my final question to you, Secretary Pompeo, what's next for you?
01:01:27Are you looking at being part of the administration, part of Trump 2.0?
01:01:31We'll see.
01:01:32That's obviously President Trump's decision.
01:01:34He made a choice not to pick me at this point.
01:01:38He made that pretty clear, which is fine.
01:01:40He picked an all-new team this time.
01:01:43But for me, if you get called to serve and someone says, will you come help solve something
01:01:49or help America, you say yes to that.
01:01:52You know, we've come to the end of what I'm sure all of you feel been a very captivating
01:01:57session, and before I thank Secretary Pompeo, I just want to acknowledge the fact that one
01:02:02of the most important people in India, one of the sharpest military and intelligence
01:02:09minds we've seen, our National Security Advisor, Mr. Ajit Doval, is here in the hall.
01:02:15We tried very hard, as we have for many years, to convince Mr. Doval to be on the stage and
01:02:22to speak.
01:02:23He's so much smarter than that.
01:02:25But in just the way that Doval is, he said, I will come and I will listen and I will see
01:02:32and I shall absorb, which is what he's done, but he's been here very patiently listening
01:02:37to this conversation.
01:02:38But the fact that you've made the effort of taking out time, sir, means a lot.
01:02:43Thank you for joining us here.
01:02:44And I hope at some point in time you'll change your mind.
01:02:46We can have you going from there and joining Secretary Pompeo and being here.
01:02:50But ladies and gentlemen, at the India Today Conclave, join me in raising a very warm round
01:02:56of applause as we thank Secretary Pompeo, who's flown in especially from the United
01:03:01States.
01:03:03And I want to tell all of you, he's expecting a grandchild, which is supposed to be breaking
01:03:07news and could literally happen anytime soon.
01:03:10So despite that personal situation, he's made this effort to come here and that means a
01:03:14lot to all of us here at India Today.
01:03:17For your time and for your insights and being so combative and candid in your responses,
01:03:21Secretary Pompeo, thank you so much.
01:03:23Thank you, sir.