In this edition, we reflect on the big takeaways from the German federal elections and discuss the recent wave of copycat violent attacks across Europe.
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00:00Hello there and welcome to Brussels My Love, Euronews' weekly chat show that breaks down
00:17the highs and lows of EU policy making. I'm Maeve McMahon. Thanks for tuning in. Coming
00:22up this week, all eyes on Germany. The EU's economic powerhouse went to the polls last
00:28weekend and voter turnout was impressive. Over 8 in 10 people cast their ballot and
00:34most called for change. Although the Christian Democrats came out first, a takeaway from
00:38the night was the rise of the far-right AFD, especially in the east of the country. We
00:43hear how the EU capital has been reacting to the high-stakes elections and ask what's
00:48next. And from Sweden to Austria, Germany to France, there's been a spike in terrorist
00:54atrocities of late, mostly carried out by lone wolf attackers in apparent copycat style.
00:59The incidents have polarised the political sphere. Meanwhile, here in Brussels, a turf
01:04war between local drug dealers has triggered a wave of deadly street violence, begging
01:08the question, is the EU capital a dangerous city? We take a look at the surge in violence
01:13in our public space and ask what can be done to address the security risks. A warm welcome
01:18to our guests this weekend. Bruna Waterfield, Brussels correspondent with The Times. Sophie
01:23Pornschlegel, French-German political scientist with the Jacques Delors Institute. And Kim
01:28Smeiter, the Executive Director of ENAR, the European Network Against Racism. Thank you
01:33so much to you all for being with us. But as usual, before we bring in your views and
01:37your insights, let's get the latest on the challenges facing the aspiring German Chancellor,
01:42Friedrich Merz.
01:44The Chancellery in Berlin. Some scoff that the building looks like a washing machine.
01:55This is the place from where Friedrich Merz is supposed to govern the third largest economy
02:01in the world. But whether the Christian Democrat will be able to whitewash the policies of
02:09the outgoing red-green coalition is doubtful. He meets the Social Democrats as a partner,
02:17the party that Olaf Scholz just led to an electoral disaster of historic proportions.
02:28Friedrich Merz must feel like he's entering an arranged marriage with a partner on life
02:34support. Not ideal conditions for success. Finding consensus on defense and Ukraine might
02:43be easier than on migration and climate. The question now, can Germany display its full
02:53power in Brussels again or will German leadership hide behind abstentions in the European Council?
03:01So, all eyes on Friedrich Merz. Sophie, we look at you first, just for your takeaways
03:06from these elections. It looks like a really strong vote against the governing traffic-light
03:10coalition. Yes, that was definitely the case. The conservatives won, the far right won with
03:14over 20% of the vote. And interestingly enough, also the far left won after a divide with
03:19the BĂŒndnis Sarah Wagenknecht, which is a left-right party, I would say, because she's
03:23on the right on migration. And the left had more than 9% of the vote. So that was quite
03:29interesting as well. But for now, it doesn't look like Germany is back in the EU arena
03:32just quite yet, Bruno. No, it isn't. For the sort of centrist groupthink that has governed
03:39Germany for decades, it's an absolute disaster. The SPD, worst result since Imperial Germany
03:45when it was a radical populist party. In fact, the CDU are going to form, poor old Merz is
03:51going to be the chancellor with their second worst result since 1949. When you look at
03:57the vote and the fragmentation of the vote as well, I agree with you, the De Linke vote,
04:01particularly among young people, one in four young people voted De Linke. It's absolutely
04:06fascinating. But the real lesson of it is that the centrists who have been running Germany
04:10and have made catastrophic policy decisions for which they're being hammered rightly,
04:17have been beaten. And the game is over. What the new world is going to look like, we don't
04:24know. Is it going to be alternative for Germany? Who knows? I don't think they did particularly
04:28well. They didn't make the kind of breakthrough that has happened elsewhere. But I think the
04:32game is over. And I think that's going to be the lesson people are going to draw here.
04:36Kim, what about you? What have been your response and the wider response here from Brussels
04:39to these elections? I would tend to absolutely agree. So I think one of the things that we're
04:43definitely seeing is that this is actually a story that's not specific to Germany. So
04:47we see that actually these electoral results have actually been replicated in other European
04:51member states. And what we see indeed is this polarization of votes. So we have this
04:55retreat of the centre-left, the centre-right. And essentially the vote is going in two directions.
05:00Either it goes more far left, and that's what we're seeing. So we actually do see that progression
05:04of the far left in lots of different places. Or indeed it's going to alternatives, AFD,
05:09the far right. And I think here we really are starting to have a battle across Europe
05:13for what kind of Europe do we want to actually have moving forward? Is it a Europe where
05:18we divide? Or is it a Europe where we find a new narrative which federates and brings
05:22people together? The message here is we need a strong Europe. And many have been saying
05:26this week, in order to have a strong Europe, we need a strong Germany. Because Germany
05:29has been missing. Olaf Scholz has been called the wrong man around the EU summit table,
05:33Bruno. Well, I mean, Germany isn't what it was. You know, it's not the Germany of
05:38Vorsprung der Technik or whatever. I don't speak German. But they've been losing hundreds
05:44of thousands of skilled manufacturing jobs. It's de-industrialising. They're becoming
05:50very similar to countries like Britain and the Netherlands, relying on often cheap foreign
05:55labour from within the single market, Ukrainians, Belorussians, Poles, which isn't good for
06:01wages. It's not good for investment in productivity. German productivity isn't a pretty picture.
06:07Its infrastructure is crumbling. The absolutely insane decisions that were taken on energy
06:13dependency on Russian gas, not least closing down nuclear power stations. So I think, you
06:18know, Germany isn't what it was. And I think one of the things that's quite exciting
06:22about this result, highest turnout since Germany was reunified. Very exciting. This actually
06:27could be about renewal. It could be about changing the group think, getting rid of the
06:31group think, and having something new coming into the world. And I think Germany really
06:38needs that. It's a great country. It has a great contribution to European civilisation
06:44and culture, literature, philosophy is amazing. And we kind of need Germany back. And it's
06:50not going to be helped.
06:51And we're so used to Germany running so smoothly and so well. So it's unusual to look at the
06:55country fall apart over the last couple of years. But let's just show our viewers how
06:58the vote went. Because you can see there on the map, it is quite clear that there is
07:03a big divide in Germany, an East-West divide. If you look at the Socialists there, they're
07:09still strong in their home bases. But the CDU, the Conservatives did very well everywhere.
07:14Only a tiny smattering of green on that map. And if you see Berlin there, obviously a different
07:18colour to the rest of East Germany. And also in Thuringia, AfD won 38% of the votes there.
07:24Sophie, really, people feel ignored by the mainstream parties. And they also feel like
07:28what you mentioned, they don't really have the same wages people do perhaps in other
07:31parts of Germany.
07:32Yes, I think you could see that also with the regional elections last year, especially
07:36in the eastern BundeslÀnder, where there was a surge of the far right. Clearly, there's
07:41been, you know, these are also the effects of reunification that seem to be doing well.
07:46But in the end, economically, it wasn't very successful. And it has political repercussions.
07:51I think what Bruno said on the economy is really important. There has been a lacking
07:54investment infrastructure for years now. If you take the train in Germany, you will see
07:58it, but also in the digital infrastructure.
08:00Is the fiscal debt break to blame for this?
08:03That's one of the big issues. But also the question now is, with the Conservatives in
08:06power, are they going to change that or are they going to continue having an austerity
08:10policy direction? And I think that's going to be the biggest question because in the
08:14campaign, migration was the biggest topic. But in the end, it will really be the question
08:18on the economy that will be crucial in the next four years.
08:21And Angela Merkel even mentioned that in her memoir, the importance of tweaking this fiscal
08:25break in order to make sure that, you know, the company can get back on its feet.
08:28But there is a real big problem because we're going to get another coalition of the people
08:33who've failed, catastrophically failed. There's no guarantee at all that this election, which
08:39has said game over to the centrists, is going to change anything. That has consequences
08:45two or three years down the line when there's probably going to be another election.
08:48This Brandenbauer idea, which is rooted in historical analogies that simply do not apply,
08:54you know, Germany 2025 is not Germany 1933, also draws a political wall down the country
08:59because it seals off the former GDR East Germany behind a political wall rather than a literal
09:05concrete wall. And I think that is a really, really big, really, really big problem.
09:11I think people really need to grow up. And in Germany, it's very difficult because of the history
09:16and the power of those analogies. But you should not, you know, those analogies,
09:23those legacies are very, very important, but they shouldn't be used as an excuse to...
09:30Kim, you want to weigh in there?
09:31Yeah, because what I find interesting, if you look at that split, is that actually that split
09:35is not just in Germany. So if you look at kind of the results in the Netherlands,
09:38if you look at the results in France or in Belgium, it's the same group of people who are voting in this way.
09:43And what you can see is that it's those communities which feel that they've been de-invested in.
09:47These are communities which feel abandoned, which indeed don't feel like the centre has any more their back,
09:52in essence. And that's been going on for many, many years. I mean, the centre-left and the centre-right
09:56are both equally to blame with regards to the types of failures of policies that have been talked about
10:02for many years. I mean, these are not new topics. These are not new challenges. These are not new issues.
10:06But clearly the centre has been unable to deliver the kinds of results that people feel...
10:11The people that are in the seats of power have our backs, they know where we're going,
10:15and they can communicate to us in a way that we feel secure that our future will be guaranteed moving forward.
10:21And instead what they're hearing is, your pensions are going to be longer,
10:24we're going to not be able to invest in social policies or yourselves, we don't know what the future is,
10:29AI might replace you. So all of these things are leading to this insecurity.
10:33And the only people who seem to have a response to that is the far-right with a very simplistic message
10:37which blames migrants for it.
10:39And Alice Weidel, the face of the AFD, so the Spitzenkandidat if you like,
10:43she's been presenting herself with very clear messages to her voters.
10:46We can actually take a listen to her now speaking the other night just after those results came in.
10:54We have doubled our votes. They wanted to cut them in half.
10:58The opposite has happened. And I must say one thing.
11:02Our hand will always remain outstretched for participation in government.
11:07To implement the will of people, the will of Germany.
11:10We are ready to participate in government.
11:17So Alice Weidel, Sophie, is ready, but nobody wants to go into government with her.
11:20No, that's true. Even Mertz said that he wouldn't, which is good news because at the end of January
11:25there was a vote in the Bundestag where the conservatives basically decided upon a migration package
11:30that wasn't even legislative, it was just really just for the show with the votes of the AFD.
11:35And that really was the start of a breakdown of the firewall,
11:38which was tactically not very smart because it will make negotiations also with the Social Democrats
11:42and potentially the Greens, I mean now it's mostly going to be with the Social Democrats, very difficult.
11:47And so the question really is whether the conservatives will continue with that firewall
11:51or whether they will continue...
11:53And how will they be able to, considering how popular the AFD are?
11:56Yeah, and I think also the difficulty, and this is what we're seeing across Europe,
11:59is that okay, the AFD didn't win enough votes to get into power.
12:04But their ideas have managed to get into power.
12:06Because actually the way that the CDU and the way that Christian Democrats and conservatives
12:10are countering the rise of the far right across Europe is essentially by adopting all of the policies
12:15which are being championed and usurping and using it themselves.
12:18And that's the risk, in essence, of the AFD coming through the back door.
12:22Alice Weidel, she's a big fan of Margaret Thatcher.
12:24What would Margaret Thatcher think of Alice Weidel and her policies?
12:28Well, you know, Thatcher didn't like demagoguery, she didn't like referendums,
12:35she had a rather complicated relationship with democracy itself, actually.
12:41So I'm sure she wouldn't be very... she was very anti-German, of course,
12:45that's why she ended up leaving power, because she couldn't stomach a reunification
12:51of Germany. So yes, she'd, of course, be absolutely horrified.
12:56But I think one of the problems in Germany is look what has happened to the political class.
13:03In 2021, the great star was this guy, Robert Habeck.
13:07You know, he's gone. He was the centrist pinup, he was going to be the next chancellor.
13:14He's had to resign, he lost in his own constituents.
13:17And his relationship with voters is fascinating.
13:19This is the guy who called in prosecutors when he was teased on Twitter in November last year.
13:25And I think this kind of fact of an elite's relationship to voters,
13:29which is contemptuous quite often, calling in the police when people say things
13:34that they don't like, I think that was actually quite a big factor in the election.
13:38If you look into working class support for AFD, it's 38%.
13:42It's gone from 6% in 2013 to 38%,
13:46because AFD does have a different relationship.
13:49What AFD is bringing back, and this is why it gets taken up elsewhere,
13:53isn't really the politics of the Nazi party or fascism.
13:58They're quite democratic.
13:59It is mentioning words like re-migration.
14:01Well, re-migration, but let's...
14:02Which is extremely far right.
14:04Yeah, re-migration is...
14:06One of the things is that what's interesting compared, for instance,
14:10to the French far right is that the German far right really went further to the right.
14:14I mean, they have parts that are under surveillance by the Constitutional Service,
14:19which is like the internal domestic services checking whether they're neo-Nazis.
14:23They have someone like Björn Höcke in it.
14:25So they're not even trying to go to the centre.
14:27They're going to the right.
14:28And they were even too right for Marine Le Pen.
14:30Exactly.
14:31So that really says a lot.
14:33Well, that's because he was German Nazis in France.
14:37But now, of course, we're seeing Viktor Orban flirting with Alice Weidel.
14:41And rumour is in this town that they would potentially join the Patriots for Europe party.
14:46But let's go back to Die Linke, because we discussed Die Linke, how popular they are.
14:50They've had also very strong messages online talking about issues like social justice,
14:54also the war in Gaza.
14:56And we actually had a chat with one German MP from Die Linke.
14:59His name is Attis Gueppener.
15:01And he discussed also this rise of the AfD in the east.
15:04Take a look.
15:06In recent years and decades, we have repeatedly seen the fight from the so-called centre
15:12against those who actually have the least.
15:14Refugees, recipients of social benefits.
15:17And this is something that the AfD has taken up for its own brand essence.
15:22But I don't think it's just an eastern phenomenon.
15:25It is perhaps a little more popular in the east, because conditions are a little worse there.
15:29People there are worse off overall.
15:31They are poorer.
15:32And some of them don't look upwards.
15:34But instead look downwards and thus follow what the AfD, but also part of the centre,
15:39have increasingly claimed in recent decades.
15:47So Attis Gueppener there, speaking to us from Berlin, also blaming the centre.
15:51So a lot of soul-searching now will have to take place for the Socialist Party as well, Bruno.
15:55Yeah, absolutely.
15:57Are they done? Are they toast?
15:59I think the SPD is done.
16:02Thankfully, once great party, you know, should finally be buried.
16:07And it's appropriate that Scholz does that.
16:09You disagree?
16:10Yeah, I mean, I would say that, of course, you can see that it decreased in the last years.
16:13I think they had a really difficult, you know, tripartite coalition with the Liberals and the Greens.
16:18So it was extremely difficult for them.
16:20And I think they've also suffered from the fact that they were in grand coalitions all the way with the Conservatives,
16:24which makes it hard for them to kind of, you know, redefine themselves when they're not in the opposition.
16:28So I think that's really a bit of a difficulty for the Social Democrats.
16:31The centre-left definitely has to do some soul-searching.
16:34Also looking a little bit at the traffic-light government,
16:38the policies were not that much different from what's going to be championed by the CDU.
16:42So the centre-left has completely abandoned its fundamental values.
16:45And this is a problem across Europe.
16:47Across Europe, the centre-left has to reimagine what a future of Europe looks like that is more inclusive.
16:53And that is currently not resonated.
16:55So the problem with the centre-left, and this is why the FD have done well,
16:59the FD have, you know, ethno-nationalists within their ranks.
17:02We saw, you know, Max, Maxie Boy going back into the Bundestag.
17:06They have ethno-nationalists in their ranks, but it's not, their support isn't ethno-nationalist.
17:11That's not how they win votes.
17:13They win votes on the basis of pretty old-fashioned nation-state politics.
17:16It used to be the politics of social democracy.
17:18In fact, nation-state is very important if you're a Social Democrat.
17:22A radical Social Democrat like myself, a nation-state is absolutely vital.
17:25That's how you carry out your programme.
17:27And you represent people's interests.
17:29And that's fascinating.
17:31You look at the FD rallies across Germany, working-class rallies, is they talk like Social Democrats.
17:37They become much more sort of farrage, you know, pint and a cigarette.
17:40Well, I just wanted to go back to what you just said about the Social Democrats.
17:44And I think what you could see in the Traffic Light Coalition is the position that the Social Democrats have taken on migration was very much on the right.
17:50I mean, they were for border controls against Schengen, for repatriating, re-migration to Afghanistan and Syria, which are, you know, countries that are at war with the Taliban.
18:00So, it wasn't really a Social Democratic agenda.
18:02And I think that really made it difficult.
18:04But I would also agree that, you know, the Social Democrats tend to have like a social agenda, which is not in the centre anymore.
18:10Now, it's identity politics.
18:12It's very much about these polarisations.
18:14And that's when the far-right is winning.
18:16And that's also how Die Linke is actually gaining ground.
18:18So, in essence, those who would normally vote centre-left have a tough choice.
18:23Either they fall to the siren of the AFD, or they say, I'm going to stay true to my left ideals and I go even deeper into the left.
18:31And that's where Die Linke gets very dark.
18:33But here at Euronews, we've been speaking to a lot of kind of under-30 brackets, and they're very disappointed in the outcome.
18:37And they really don't think that Friedrich Merz represents them.
18:40And last week in Cologne, I spoke to Lukas Sieper.
18:43He's actually a German MEP.
18:44He's 27 years old.
18:45Take a listen to how he feels about Friedrich Merz.
18:48I think he will be a chancellor of the old times, which for me is very unfortunate.
18:54I don't think he's going to be up for the challenges.
18:57I'll always remember that the best chancellor that we had in the last decades, which was Angela Merkel, got rid of him in 2006.
19:06And I think there was a good reason for that.
19:08As much as I hate this term because it's used by anti-democratic people, he is pure establishment.
19:14Basically, he is this old-fashioned style of politics where you have interest groups that have the most influence,
19:20where you barely listen to the people directly.
19:23And frankly speaking, he is also just too old.
19:26He cannot represent the young people and also not the medium-aged people.
19:30Lukas Sieper there expressing his dismay with the chancellor, saying he's quite frankly too old.
19:35So very disappointed German youth there.
19:38Well, the thing is Germany is an old country.
19:40So, you know, the demographics is that the youth is not very well represented.
19:43What I found really interesting is that almost 30% of the young people between 18 and 24-year-old voted for the left.
19:50And I think that, you know, not only social media will discuss it later, will have played a role,
19:54but also the fact that they voted for the left and for the AfD,
19:58which means that the centre democratic parties really have an issue with, you know, speaking to young people.
20:04And I think a lot of the De Linke vote was actually a vote in support of the firewall.
20:08I think polling went up, the TikTok went viral after the vote in the Bundestag.
20:16So I think that's kind of interesting.
20:20I think that is kind of interesting.
20:22But I really, you know, come back to something really, really important.
20:26You know, voters don't like it when politicians say, look, some things are more important than you.
20:34The EU is more important than you.
20:36EU asylum policy, even if it doesn't work, is more important than your interests.
20:41Even your safety, as people perceive it.
20:44Refugee conventions are more important than how we govern our country.
20:48And one of the problems the SPD has is it's very bolted into that kind of mindset.
20:55And I think that's the problem in Germany.
20:57So how will Friedrich Merz act?
20:58Will we see a collision course with the president Ursula von der Leyen on some policies?
21:02I think it's difficult to see.
21:03I mean, as I said, I'm not sure to what extent will the CDU not involve the AfD through the back door, in essence.
21:08So I think it will be interesting to see whether there will be more of that kind of thing.
21:14And I think you're absolutely right.
21:15You know, how do we how does the establishment finally listen to the signal,
21:19which has been sent to them multiple times, that they need to start listening to the people and that they need to start delivering on that?
21:26We can bring this very interesting conversation to an end.
21:28Thank you so much to our panellists.
21:30And thank you for watching.
21:31Stay with us, though, because after this break, we'll be telling you about the latest turf wars here in Brussels
21:37that have seen a spike of unprecedented violence on the streets of the EU capital.
21:41See you soon.
21:50Welcome back to Brussels, my love.
21:52Euronews' weekly chat show where we're just looking back at the news of the week.
21:56And one topic we wanted to take a look into was the spike of isolated attacks that we've seen across Europe of late.
22:02Last week in Mulhouse, a man who was on a terror watch list killed one and injured five policemen.
22:07Meanwhile, in Berlin, a man injured a Spanish tourist in an anti-Semitic attack.
22:12And just before the Munich security conference, we saw a car drive into a protest killing two,
22:16not to mention the mass killing in Sweden last month, the Magdeburg car attack and the Aschaffenburg knife attack as well.
22:22Now, it's worth pointing out, these attacks are nothing like the terrorist attacks that we've seen a few years ago in Europe,
22:27but they're still being very much instrumentalised by politicians.
22:30What's your assessment on this, Kim?
22:32I think that's exactly the problem, that it's being instrumentalised and it's being used to make social commentary over.
22:38And I think that's creating the sentiment of insecurity that's spreading across Europe and also a search for who is to blame.
22:44And I think that's the dangerous game that's currently being played is who is to blame and necessary kind of actions that are being undertaken.
22:51So I think that the over-reliance on policing as the only response to these kinds of actions is particularly worrying.
22:57There seems to be a spike in this kind of copycat trend. What's your assessment of the situation, Bruno?
23:02Well, the attacks you talked about are largely carried out by people who are lone wolves but who have an Islamist motivation.
23:11There is a certain pattern of attacks being carried out by people who don't even have a right to be in that territory.
23:21People have a track record of violence.
23:26And people do say, and it's very, very understandable, it's quite legitimate, they say, you know, it's becoming too normal.
23:34It's becoming too everyday. You go to a Christmas market with roadblocks to protect it from people driving cars into the crowds.
23:40Let's remember a lot of the people who die in these crowd events are people of immigrant origin themselves in Germany.
23:46Let's not forget that. It's very, very, very important.
23:49But people say, look, you know, I don't like having to go to a Christmas market that's surrounded by a security cordon.
23:55Look at the carnivals this week. There's a big alert in Belgium at the moment because of ISIS telegram accounts.
24:02People aren't happy when they go to a carnival, something they've done forever,
24:06something that's supposed to be a moment when community comes together and they feel a bit under siege.
24:11And I think you have to be really explicit about this discussion.
24:13And you do have to talk about motivation to the people who do it.
24:17And you also have to discuss the other side of the coin, which is the increase in attacks as well on asylum seekers, on migrants, on their accommodations as well.
24:24This was 2000 I was reading just last year. But Friedrich Merz, he wants to address this issue because it is a concern for people.
24:30He wants to do so by introducing border checks, having stricter migration control.
24:34Will this work or could it just add fuel to the fire?
24:36I feel like there's a very strong focus on attacks by with people in migration background.
24:41That's also, you know, covered by the media.
24:43And there's less of a media coverage on extremist attacks, for instance, on the far right, where violence also has increased and numbers show it.
24:50And I think what's interesting to see is that generally there is an increase in violence, which may be also not only is reflected in the public sphere, but also in real life now.
24:58And one of the biggest issue I find is that it's very easy finger pointing what's happening rather than actually addressing the root causes, which is a lack of integration policy, lack of funding.
25:08Also, I mean, a very concrete example. I had a friend who came from Iraq in Berlin and he couldn't work for three years.
25:14So because no one allowed him. So, of course, what do you do? You have a young man who's like 27 who can't work for three years.
25:21You know, what is he going to do? And you're creating basically the ecosystem for more crime, for resentment and for frustration.
25:28So I think it's really up to the governments to take this on.
25:31And the Covid pandemic didn't help either. That's according to one security expert that we spoke to, Claude Monique.
25:36He's a former Secret Service agent. Take a listen to his view.
25:39Security measures in Europe have been significantly strengthened after the period we experienced between 2014, marked by the attack on the Jewish museum in Brussels,
25:49which was the first attack by the Islamic State in Europe, and 2017, which saw the Barcelona attacks and the end of the Islamic State's territorial control in Syria and Iraq.
25:58Today, we are simply witnessing the return of a threat that has always been present.
26:02It has remained roughly at the same level, though it has likely worsened with Covid.
26:06During the lockdown, many young people were deprived of school in real social interactions, spending their time only in virtual spaces, which led a number of them to be radicalized online by propagandists.
26:17Today, we are paying the price with very young actors.
26:20And two countries that remain highly targeted are France and Germany.
26:25Claude Monique, their former Secret Service analyst.
26:28So there this is an issue that really needs to be addressed, this radicalization online.
26:32Yeah. Yes.
26:34Look, I think it's really important to note something that there is a big, as we've just been talking about, a big sucking vacuum at the heart of Western European societies like Germany, Belgium, France.
26:48There's real confusion over values, there's real confusion over democracy with political elites who are pretty contemptuous of most people.
26:58The economy doesn't work for most people.
27:01Communities are felt to be under siege and in decline.
27:05The police often seem to some people, it's a bit of a caricature, but it has an element of truth to be more concerned about policing people's Twitter accounts than, you know, catching a guy who should be locked up.
27:17My concern is that indeed we're taking these lone attacks, these lone wolf attacks, and we're painting it on communities.
27:23So in essence, communities are being asked to defend themselves.
27:25And this is again something which has happened for decades.
27:27They're being asked to defend themselves for something that they have had no responsibility for.
27:31And also we're still not going back to the root causes.
27:34These are communities which are underinvested for many, many years.
27:37These are communities which are excluded from the political life.
27:40We have now political parties which are asking for re-immigration for people which have been here for decades.
27:45That creates the environment for these things to happen.
27:48That's the concrete impact of these things.
27:52And that's why it's really important to reinvest in our communities, indeed to invest also in security, but to make sure that police and security are never the only answer.
28:01You always need to have also a strong investment in social policies for it to actually create an ecosystem which creates inclusive bonds, which creates bonds between communities, and which enables radicalism to be rooted out.
28:11Yeah, I think you have to have a really honest discussion.
28:13And that means, you know, sometimes you do have to talk about Islamist motivation.
28:18Islamism isn't something that necessarily paints a community.
28:22I've got lots of German-Turkish friends who would not like to be called Muslim, for example.
28:28So the painting of communities as being Muslim, for example, when they're Turkish, Indian, Bangladeshi, Arabs of the Maghreb, Arabs of the Middle East, is insane.
28:40I mean, really, really insane.
28:42So I think we need to have a very honest discussion.
28:44Yes, we need to have an honest discussion.
28:45At the same time, I really agree that, you know, it's dangerous to go like from one and to basically say it's your fault, and then it fuels Islamophobia.
28:52And I think we've seen that after the terrorist attacks as well in Belgium and in France, where they're considered second-class citizens, and nothing is done to make sure that they are more equal.
29:01And I think that as long as this is still the case, and you're not investing, and you're still allowing these people to feel like they don't belong, I think we will see that continuing.
29:10And I think that's something we really need to address.
29:12And that requires investments and money as well.
29:14Okay.
29:15And on that point, we can bring this conversation to an end.
29:18For more on that story, you can take a look at our website, Euronews.com.
29:21Thank you so much, though, to our guests for being with us.
29:23And thank you for watching.
29:25See you soon here on Euronews.
29:27Hello there, and welcome to Brussels, my love, Euronews' weekly politics show.
29:40I'm Maeve McMahon, and along with our panel, Bruno Waterfield, correspondent with The Times, Sophie Puenchlagel, French-German political scientist, and Kim Smout, the executive director of the European Network Against Racism.
29:51We're just taking a look back at the news of the week.
29:54And one that turned our heads was this, even though it wasn't a surprise.
29:58A new survey that says young people are using social media as their main sources of news.
30:03TikTok, Instagram, YouTube have replaced newspapers and TV and radio for many under-30s.
30:10And according to the study, one in two teens trust TikTok and trust Instagram much more than any other platform.
30:17So, Bruno, I'll bring you in here, of course, as a journalist for a very established old newspaper.
30:22How does this make you feel?
30:23I think it's fantastic. It's a revolution. Love it. Absolutely love it.
30:27I think there are real questions to be answered, particularly about who owns these platforms, as we call them, or publishers.
30:34And there are real questions. I think you look at the TikTok, which is essentially switched off in the United States.
30:41It's not a free speech question when platforms can be owned by unaccountable foreign corporations who might actually be acting on the behest of states who are not your friends.
30:54So I think there's those questions. And I think it's a lot of catching up to do for traditional journalists and publishers like myself.
31:02But, you know, having to run a race is fantastic. Let's do it.
31:05Well, what about giving context on stories that can be very complicated and very difficult?
31:09And also very instrumentalized.
31:10And I think that's the problem with social media is that, indeed, we haven't gotten or regulatory hasn't caught up to the fact that it needs to be treated almost in the same way, in the same care as traditional press.
31:21At the same time, I think, indeed, social media gives a lot more voices, a lot more space, which can be a good thing or it can be a bad thing, depending on how it's used.
31:30So I think that intentionality of how social media is used, that's something which we need to really look at.
31:35And I would say the third thing is how do we ensure that we, as people in society, are equipped to be sufficiently critical over the contents being spread on social media, sometimes for nefarious ends and sometimes, indeed, for efforts to try to bring more social awareness on issues.
31:50And we're not equipped enough. Maybe just to kind of say, yes, it is a new development, but, you know, the algorithm polarizes. I've seen it myself. It does so automatically.
32:00Secondly, there's a lack of moderation we've seen. So there's hate speech there, which is getting really bad, especially on X.
32:06And thirdly, the ownership, which was mentioned, is really difficult because it is our data in the end and it's used, you know, for third parties, for advertising purposes.
32:13And we're not quite sure in which hands it will fall either. And with the US administration, I'd be really careful about that.
32:18I would actually add also on the free speech point as well. What's interesting is that there's an American model of free speech that's being imposed on Europe.
32:24But actually, Europe has a different approach to free speech. We allow free speech, but to the extent that it doesn't harm others.
32:30That's actually a really arguable point. If you look at the European history and tradition of the free press, the unlicensed press and of free speech.
32:42I mean, it's really it's very questionable. Very, very questionable.
32:46There were many hate speech prosecutions in the 1920s and the 1930s against people like Google.
32:52Yeah, but for now, I mean, I'm sorry, but it didn't change anything.
32:55If you look at vulnerable groups or women receiving tons of hate mail and being in a talk show, I'm sorry, that's not free speech.
33:01And another concern, according to a Reuters report as well, with this AI generated content as well, there's a lot of women.
33:06They're absent, completely absent from videos. And you often see male hosts with big microphones just speaking to male guests.
33:13But let's just ask young people in this town whether they agree with this report.
33:16We were out on the streets of the city of Brussels asking them where they get their news. Take a listen.
33:21I'm looking to TikTok and then I see videos of the news and all.
33:25I look at the different accounts of newspapers like Le Monde, Le Canard Enchaßné, etc., etc., which I actually have here right now.
33:33I mainly use Instagram and YouTube to inform myself about actualities.
33:39Now everything is digital. So I just look at, for example, the Politico app or the Economist or the Financial Times.
33:44And I also subscribe to their newsletters.
33:47I tend to use Twitter. Now it's called X. I normally follow all the accounts of the different newspapers that I actually trust or like I like.
33:55I use Instagram a lot, so I will see the information on Reels usually. So it can be a bit biased because of the algorithm.
34:01I don't really watch TV a lot. It's just I go through my phone and all the time I'm using TikTok or Instagram.
34:08So many different answers. There are lots of following traditional papers, in fact, actually, and signing up to newsletters and subscriptions because that's what will keep you in a job.
34:15Yeah, absolutely. People need to pay for stuff. But I think I think there's a really important point.
34:19So if you may, I think it's really, really important is the social media like the unlicensed press 200 years ago holds a mirror up and it's often pretty unpleasant.
34:28I mean, I look in the mirror in the mornings and it's not doesn't get better.
34:31Older, I can assure you of that. And so, yes, I mean, some of the things that we're talking about are really important.
34:36One of the things that's really needed, actually, in our European societies at the moment is a new wave of feminism, actually, because some of those debates have simply slipped.
34:47You disagree. You're nodding your head. Well, the thing is, it's biased.
34:50So I think it's, you know, yes, of course, it's great to have a feminist as a social movement.
34:54But the issue is that if you have a platform where the algorithm is already biased and when you have things like the Manosphere, which has like an incredible influence,
35:02you know, also on voting behavior, when you have Andrew Tate's or Joe Rogan's that have such a great following, it has implications also for social values and how people vote.
35:11And we've seen that generative AI is racist and it's also rather right wing. I was reading some reports.
35:17Absolutely. I mean, we're actually creating a society full of echo chambers which don't speak to each other anymore.
35:22And social media accelerates that. And you need on the other side, artificial intelligence creates a very unlevel playing field.
35:28So I think if you look at kind of how political parties or particular political movements are investing massively without any sort of...
35:34We're not playing with very fair weapons in there.
35:36So is the newspaper dead?
35:37Absolutely not. I mean, newspapers are doing pretty well at the moment.
35:40Print editions are actually doing surprisingly well, a bit like vinyl. I say it every time, but a bit like vinyl.
35:45No, look, there's a battle going on. And instead of running away from the battle, you have to get involved in the battle.
35:52And yes, I mean, there are really big accountability questions on anonymity, for example.
35:57Also on the algorithms, which just comes back to who owns these platforms. How do they monetize?
36:03How do they work? Simple questions of public accountability.
36:06But, you know, it's a good, you know, to have the mirror held up to us and not to like it is a good thing.
36:13We can't stop.
36:15Yes. You want to make your point?
36:17Yeah, maybe just to kind of also find compromise there.
36:19I think that, you know, it's a reality and we've seen it that young people use those platforms.
36:23So the question is, of course, how political parties use it.
36:25And we've seen that the far right is extremely good at using TikTok, for instance, the far left as well.
36:29Center parties, not so much.
36:31And the second thing is also, and I know this is not in the trend right now,
36:34but I think having regulation like the DSA and the DMA from the EU, so the Digital Services and Digital Markets Act, is actually something good.
36:41And I hope that we won't be blackmailed by the U.S. to stop that.
36:44And I know there's a deregulation wave at the moment, but, you know, having regulation on those things is really important.
36:48Yes, tech is untouchable. That's the word from Brussels.
36:50And on that point, we could bring this conversation to an end.
36:53Thank you so much, Bruna Waterfield, correspondent with The Times, for being with us.
36:56Sophie Pornschlegel, French-German political scientist.
36:59And Kim Schmeiter from Enar, thank you for being our guests.
37:02And thank you so much for watching.
37:04If you want to reach out to us here, brusselsmyloveaturinews.com, that is our email address.
37:09You can also catch us on any of those social media platforms that we've just been discussing.
37:13But for now, thanks for watching. See you soon.
37:18Transcribed by https://otter.ai