The second Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) report on Delhi's healthcare infrastructure tabled in the Assembly has uncovered significant financial mismanagement, negligence, and a lack of accountability in the administration of the previous Aam Aadmi Party (AAP) government over the past six years.
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00:00Hello and welcome. Good evening. You're watching To The Point. I'm Akshita Anandagopal.
00:04This evening, we'll be talking about the CAG report that's come to the fore in Delhi
00:10on the kind of health expenses by the erstwhile K. J. Bal government.
00:14Another allegation of mismanagement of financial irregularities and much more.
00:19We'll be talking about that. Let's begin with the headlines.
00:22CAG report exposes the ARP health model. No new beds, no health infrastructure, no SOS equipment and ambulances.
00:34Protests on the streets of Chennai over language war. DMK workers protest, shout get out Modi slogans.
00:45Stalin reiterates language and delimitation fights. There's no funds given because language policy is blocked.
00:51BJP's big allegation on Himachal government alleges Sukhu government seeks funds from temples for government schemes.
01:04Sukhu confirms the same, says it's for the welfare of the people.
01:07Massive avalanche hits Badrinath. 32 workers rescued, over 20 still trapped.
01:18NDRF and ITBP conduct joint rescue ops. Sensex falls 1.9%. Nifty ends below 22,125.
01:32BSE mid cap, small cap lose over 2.2% amid Trump's 10% tariff on Chinese imports.
01:38After the explosive CAG report on the Delhi excise policy, the lens now is on the ARP health model.
01:53Fireworks broke out both inside and outside the Delhi assembly as the CAG report was tabled.
01:59So what exactly does this report on health expenses actually establish?
02:05We accessed the report, went through it to tell you all about the massive lapses in crucial health infrastructure that's come to light during Arvind Kejriwal's tenure.
02:15Our next report breaks it down for you.
02:19After the alleged liquor scam, the lens is on the AAP's health model.
02:24The BJP government tabled the second CAG report, this time on the capital's health infrastructure under the Amarni Party government.
02:35India Today accessed the report and damning revelations emerged.
02:40COVID emergency funds were not fully used. Over 36 crore rupees meant for COVID drugs, masks and PPE kits were unused, leading to shortage of supplies.
02:52Only 1,357 hospital beds were added against the 32,000 promised.
02:59Only three hospitals were completed, leading to a cost overrun of over 3,000 crore rupees in hospital projects.
03:068,000 posts for healthcare workers lay vacant, triggering a shortage of healthcare staff.
03:1358% to 93% of funds for maternal and child health lay unused.
03:19While 15 government plots for hospitals worth over 600 lakh rupees is unused.
03:24Mohalla clinics and Ayush dispensaries were also found to lack basic infrastructure like toilets, power backups and check-up tables.
03:33The wait time for surgeries at two government hospitals varied between 2 to 12 months.
03:38Critical hospital infrastructure like ICUs and operating theatres in two super-speciality hospitals lay idle.
03:46Accident and trauma services ambulances also lacked life-saving equipment.
04:16We brought about a health revolution. This report opens up the poles of their claims.
04:33Overall, this particular report talks about what the problem lied in the health structure.
04:40We did see some of the information that came in that still suggests that even oxygen facilities lack in some of the hospitals in the national capital.
04:49This report has finally been tabled. It will be taken up for discussion today and in the next day of the session.
04:55Then it will be sent to the Public Actions Committee.
04:58But the most shocking revelation in the CAG report is the lack of crucial health infrastructure in the capital.
05:06Out of 27 hospitals, there are no intensive care units in 14 hospitals, no blood banks in 16 hospitals, no oxygen supply in 8 hospitals, no ambulance services in 12 hospitals and no mortuary in 15 hospitals.
05:23For the second day in a row, a face-off erupted outside the assembly hall.
05:49For the second day in a row, a face-off erupted outside the assembly once again between leader of opposition Adishi and the police over Aam Aadmi Party MLAs being denied entry.
06:00The opposition party accused the BJP of attempting to set a false narrative with the CAG reports.
06:21It's a normal process. The BJP has a habit of building a narrative for everything.
06:26The CAG report had to be presented in the session because our last chief minister, Adishi ji, completed all the formalities and sent the CAG report to the speaker in a sealed envelope, which was presented now.
06:40First the exercise policy, now the health model. The heat is mounting on former CM Arvind Kejriwal.
06:48Bureau report India Today.
07:18What the UP health model was really about and why Mohalla clinics were established in the first place.
07:24Mohalla clinics were established in the first place to reduce the number of the OPD patients in the bigger hospitals of Delhi, in the tertiary care level centers of Delhi.
07:34And that is the exact purpose they served.
07:37So when you talk about 550 odd Mohalla clinics, yes, is that a perfect model?
07:42There can be certain deficiencies here and there, there's no doubt about it.
07:45But, you know, if someone is doing nothing, then definitely you cannot find faults in that.
07:55But if someone is doing something in the field, in the field of primary health care, in the field of school education, in secondary education.
08:01You're talking about Mohalla clinics. The CAG report speaks about Mohalla clinics and says it was poor infrastructure in the Mohalla clinics too.
08:09If you're saying nothing was available in hospitals, you're saying, okay, no, we focused on Mohalla clinics.
08:14That's also not perfect.
08:15I think, I think, I think, I think you got me wrong there.
08:18You know what I'm trying to say that all the bigger hospitals, you know, the tertiary level care, let's, let's get a little technical here.
08:25You know, the job of Mohalla clinics was to reduce the number of OPD patients in the bigger hospital so that they can treat the more sick patients, more critically ill patients.
08:34Because that is what the tertiary care level center is meant about.
08:37That is what the bigger hospitals should do.
08:39The bigger hospitals OPD should not be flogging with the patients with, you know, fever or urinary tract infection or simple infections or simple diabetes and simple hypertension.
08:48So I, you know, when, when we talk about the deficiencies, these deficiencies can very well be debated.
08:54But this model in particular is the first in the first of its kind in independent India.
09:00What model are you talking about? If there are deficiencies and you're saying that, yes, there are deficiencies, then how is that a model to actually replicate?
09:06Ma'am, ma'am, you, you, you're, you're not, not able to understand.
09:09No, no, I'm understanding perfectly.
09:10You're talking about tertiary health care, whatever.
09:12The point is that hospitals, one second, let me highlight your intensive care units unavailable in 14 hospitals.
09:18What are we talking about then?
09:19Pardon me.
09:20Pardon me.
09:21Pardon me for that.
09:22You know what I'm trying to tell you here that when we are talking about Mohalla clinics, Mohalla clinics did the job they were supposed to do.
09:27They reduced the number of OPD patients.
09:29The AAP is saying that, look, the AAP health model is something that everyone looked up to.
09:44And while there are some deficiencies, as Mr. Piyush Joshi says, at the end of the day, the Mohalla clinics changed up health care in Delhi.
09:52Well, good evening, Akshita.
09:58Good evening, everybody.
09:59They are right.
10:00It changed the health care model in Delhi.
10:02It led to a complete collapse of the health model.
10:05You know, the Kejriwal health model, it now appears was a code word for what India has seen has been the biggest health sector scam in India's history.
10:19You know, think of it, 582 crore out of 787 crores meant for COVID emergency funds were spent.
10:26So, in effect, what it means is that 24% of the funds COVID emergency funds were completely unused.
10:34But what is most baffling is that this corresponded with a mindless plurging on the personal sheesh mahal of Arvind Kejriwal.
10:45You know, in the same period when the medical indiscretions were being carried out in Delhi, when Delhi was suffering for hospital beds, instead of 32000 beds, a mere 1300 beds were provided between 2016 to 2024.
11:00That was the time when Arvind Kejriwal was busy planning his personal indulgences, specifically the sheesh mahal.
11:08And that budget rose by a whopping 342 crore.
11:12So, this is what highlights the priorities of the AAP government.
11:16They were here for personal self, you know, aggrandizement.
11:20And look at the three hospitals which they were supposed to build in Delhi.
11:23The three hospitals could not be built because the cost, because of the delays in the construction, the cost again rose by a good 342%.
11:31You've made several points. Let the Amartya Party respond also.
11:33Half of the hospitals did not have ICUs.
11:35Let him respond to you.
11:36Thank you, Piyush Joshi. Based on this CAG report and the previous one, and also, of course, the details that have emerged of the LH sheesh mahal, as the BJP puts it, the questions that are being asked right now is what was the AAP's priority during COVID?
11:49Was it to help the citizens of Delhi or was it to make a buck or two?
11:52Was it to go ahead and ensure this kind of mismanagement of financial irregularities?
11:57Well, you know, because since we are debating everything under the sun, so let me address all these issues which Mr. Spohin Sinha mentioned.
12:04When you talk about COVID, when the CAG audit of PMKR's fund is going to be conducted, can you please clarify?
12:11Because that was the fund in which all the government employees, all the big industrialists donated.
12:16Whether it's an NGO or whether it's a government entity, do we know anything about it?
12:20But no, because BJP does not have any vision when it comes to the primary health care of Delhi.
12:26BJP does not have any vision when it comes to school education of Delhi.
12:30That's why the rhetoric is all we are expecting from the Bharatiya Janata Party.
12:34When is the Bharatiya Janata Party going to fulfil all its promises which it has made to the people of Delhi?
12:40Nobody knows.
12:41I will make you respond to that.
12:43I will make you respond to that, PS Joshi.
12:45Just answer my question, please.
12:46Answer my question about really what happened during COVID.
12:49That's what I'm trying to tell you.
12:50Under Aam Aadmi Party.
12:51Under Aam Aadmi Party, you know, there were separate cough and cold centres.
12:55There were separate OPDs which were functional in accordance to the ICMR guidelines.
12:59Because each and every state government was following the guidelines which were issued by the union government
13:04and demanding its own share of oxygen, demanding its own share of remdesivir, demanding its own share of oxygen concentrators.
13:11That is what every state government was doing.
13:14787 crores.
13:16787 crores was allocated.
13:18582 crores out of that was used.
13:22Where did the rest of the money go?
13:23Exactly, that's what I'm asking.
13:25Through what fund was it allocated?
13:27Whether it was allocated through PM Cares Fund or whether it was allocated through the Union Health Ministry.
13:31If it was allocated through the PM Cares Fund, when are we going to see a CAG audit of that particular fund?
13:36Whether it is a government entity or whether it is an NGO, we are still to know.
13:40If it is an NGO, as the union government has claimed in the Supreme Court,
13:44how did it get the gov.in domain name?
13:48So, you know, so many questions are there.
13:50BJP can talk whatever they want to talk.
13:52If Mollah clinics are so bad, reverse engineering, close them.
13:54Then where is the average Delhiite going to go if he suffers from a common fever or a common infection?
13:59Govind sir, your response?
14:05You know, shamelessness has been the hallmark of the Aam Aadmi Party and it continues to be.
14:09Instead of feeling apologetic about, you know, the way people were suffering for oxygen for a good four to five weeks,
14:16for a good four to five weeks, people were suffering for oxygen in Delhi.
14:21Instead of being apologetic on it, you know, the least they could have partially salvaged themselves
14:25had they implemented the Pradhan Mantri Ayushman Yojana.
14:29But they did not even do that.
14:31And today they are, you know, questioning the central government.
14:33Obviously, when you, when you, when you, you know, emergency funds would either, how does it make a difference?
14:39They said the central government didn't help them.
14:41And that's what Piyush Joshi is saying now too.
14:44No, no, that's a, that's a lie.
14:47They have constantly, they have always been at loggerheads, you know, with the, with the lieutenant governor and the central government
14:52and used it as an alibi for the non-performance.
14:55That is not true.
14:56The central government has helped each and every state government during the COVID crisis.
15:00You know, the point is, we in a record time managed to ensure 220 crore COVID jabs.
15:06But the record of the Delhi government, a state with a mere population of two crores, is so paltry.
15:13It is so insulting that I think, you know, any capable person would have, would have been feeling apologetic today
15:20about his performance instead of waxing eloquent and questioning the central government.
15:24He's asking whether the central government funds came from PMC cares or, or from, you know, directly from the government.
15:31How does it matter?
15:32Are you questioning the CAG report?
15:34You know, the details will come out.
15:36You go, perhaps, it will subsequently come out.
15:40But fact is, fact is today, you don't have the right to ask questions.
15:45You have to, you have to answer the questions which people are asking.
15:48The way you're, the way you're indifference, the way you're indifference, the way you're indifference has led to a complete collapse of the health system.
16:01When are we going to see a CAG audit?
16:03When are we going to see a CAG audit of the PM cares fund?
16:06Since you are so fond of talking about COVID, I have dealt with the COVID patients, you know, firsthand.
16:11I have treated many of them in the, in both the first phase and the second phase.
16:15And I've seen what your oxygen shortage looks like.
16:17Then you should show greater sensitivity.
16:19That was a bad figure.
16:20No, no, at least then you should, you know, at least you should have shown a little bit more sensitivity than Kejriwal.
16:27Let Piyush Joshi make his point, I'll come back to you.
16:29The oxygen demand rose by 100 folds in that particular case.
16:32So when you are talking about, you know, where the funds came from, when you are discussing the CAG audit of Delhi and its government in last 10 years,
16:40let me, let me ask you, when are we going to see a PM cares audit of CAG, you know, and why, why does the government maintain its stance that it is a, it is an NGO?
16:48And when are we going to see the fulfillment of promises instead of diversionary tactics as has been the routine on part of the BJP?
16:54You know, the problem with Arvind Kejriwal and Aam Aadmi Party government is that Arvind Kejriwal dared to provide the primary healthcare in an albert-centric model,
17:01in an innovative way and secondary education to those who cannot afford.
17:04In a country in which politics is run on entirely negativity as the BJP is doing rhetoric and religion.
17:10So all in all in a country run in a, in a politics, you know, in a country where politics is run on emotive issues, he dared to provide 550 or more clinics to continue.
17:20Which is great, which is great, Mr. Piyush Joshi.
17:23But that's why, that's why, but the fact is that the CAG report pokes holes in the Mohalla clinics too.
17:29Fair enough, ma'am.
17:30Fair enough, ma'am.
17:31So let us discuss CAG reports on the healthcare infrastructure of Madhya Pradesh, Rajasthan and see what the glaring deficiencies are.
17:37If the Mohalla clinic model is so bad, why did the Madhya Pradesh government promise Sanjeevani clinic model exactly as the Delhi's Mohalla clinic model?
17:44And while promising Sanjeevani clinic, the Madhya Pradesh government, including Shivraj Singh as the chief minister and Mohan Yadav, mentioned the Delhi Mohalla clinic model.
17:52And the then Lok Sabha speaker Sumitra Mahajan said that the Delhi Mohalla clinic model needs to be replicated.
17:58Why are the government is going for the CAG model if it is so bad?
18:01The reality is that the Delhi health model is something that's been spoken about.
18:04That Arvind Kejriwal's idea of Mohalla clinics did in fact get a certain kind of positive reception in Delhi.
18:11And as Piyush Joshi highlights here, several states have also followed suit.
18:15Even the BJP government in Delhi said very clearly, we won't shut down these Mohalla clinics.
18:19You know, again, none of the BJP leaders have praised the Mohalla clinic.
18:26Piyush Joshi is spreading misinformation over here.
18:29Yes, some of the foreign handlers have surely praised it.
18:32But point is, they used health and education, two crucial pillars of the country's future, as a device to perpetrate the worst scams.
18:42And it is very clear, Mohalla clinic today, at least, I think the CAG report is a slightly predated report.
18:50By the end of their term in January 2025, many of the Mohalla clinics were, you know, like ghost buildings.
18:57We've seen journalists cover them. They were completely abandoned.
19:01They had nothing to do with the Mohalla clinics.
19:04Mohalla clinic was simply to embezzle certain funds from the execute and to destroy Delhi's economy.
19:11And I say this with full responsibility, especially after the findings of the CAG report.
19:16The reality right now of 14 pending CAG reports being tabled one after another.
19:27What's your response to allegations that this is a political witch hunt?
19:31The discussion, you know, the media times its events.
19:36A new government has just taken over in Delhi.
19:39And obviously the CAG report has been brought to, you know, has been put forth in the Delhi assembly.
19:45So obviously that's the reason we are discussing it tomorrow.
19:48If there is a change of government in some other state and that state and the new state government presents its CAG report,
19:53probably you're free to have a discussion. But, you know, the water bountary,
19:57which AAP is indulging in today is completely misplaced and it shows their insensitivity.
20:02Will you admit, P S Joshi, then looking at the details that have emerged from the CAG report,
20:07that health was mismanaged, that, you know, there was clearly wrong allotment of funds.
20:12We don't know where some of the funds have gone, especially during COVID.
20:16So you are saying that, yes, there was some deficiencies clearly that's come to the fore.
20:20So are you admitting that clearly there were shortcomings on our part when we were in power?
20:26Look there, you know, look at the numbers where the deficiencies are found.
20:30You know, it's almost less than 15 percent or in many cases less than 10 percent where certain facilities are not there.
20:38Like couple of Mohalla clinics, this facility is not there, 10 or 18 of Mohalla clinics.
20:42Washrooms are not there in Mohalla clinics.
20:45Let me clarify everything for you, you know, and why these Mohalla clinics are being run in rental premises,
20:51you know, because the DDA and LG, you know, did not grant them enough land to operate Mohalla clinics.
20:58You remember Arvind Kejriwal and Manish Sodhia sitting on a dharna inside the LG's residence for that Mohalla clinics while clearance.
21:04So that is precisely the problem. If Mohalla clinics are not an innovative model,
21:09if Mohalla clinics are so bad an innovation in urban PXs, what are these Aarogya Mandirs are going to be?
21:15And how the BJP is going to function, what the BJP is going to model these Aarogya Mandirs upon?
21:21If not the Mohalla clinics philosophy, so just changing name is the BJP's sense of rhetoric and that's what they are best at doing.
21:29They'll change names, then they'll shut down all the Mohalla clinics.
21:32They'll shut down around 20-25,000 odd schools in the states where they are running,
21:37including the states of Madhya Pradesh, Rajasthan, Gujarat, Assam, elsewhere.
21:40When you talk about the Delhi healthcare model, let me tell you, when it comes to maternal mortality, infant mortality and neonatal mortality,
21:46Delhi is almost at half of the national average. And look at the states, the states of Assam, Madhya Pradesh, Rajasthan, Gujarat,
21:52they are in the top five when it comes to maternal mortality, infant mortality and neonatal mortality.
21:56What kind of healthcare model is BJP talking about? Look into your own, you know, look, look, look into your own...
22:03No, but I'm asking a simple question. I'm asking a simple question. Where did the money go?
22:08Where did the money go? The money went into treating the patient. The money went into the free medications of the patient.
22:13The money went into the proper referral of the patient.
22:15Sir, on COVID drugs, 119 crores assigned, 83 crores used. Where's the rest of the money?
22:23Maternal health funds, 58 to 93% of funds unutilized. I already gave you COVID emergency funds, 787 crores, only 582 crores utilized.
22:36Where is the money, sir?
22:38You asked about the CAG report very pointedly that whether health care was compromised or whether healthcare was put on the back burner.
22:47You know, and I gave you dominant replies about the healthcare indices of Delhi that whether healthcare was put on back burner or not.
22:55No, during COVID, where has this money gone? You're not answering my question. Where is this money that's been allocated but not used?
23:01So, madam, like the BJP has already decided they are going to form a PAC on that and that public accounts committee is going to look into it.
23:09So you concede that we don't know and you're welcoming an investigation, yes?
23:15Investigate whatever you want. You cannot take away from the fact that Mohalla Clinic has been a relieving factor when it comes to the healthcare of Delhi, when it comes to taking care of the sick of the national capital.
23:27You know, whatever you say, that's fair enough. When you talk about CAG audit, it is based on the financial aspects of running an operation.
23:34You know, it's almost as if Mr. Piyush Joshi, you're telling me Mohalla Clinic's worked, so what if there was a scam in the process? People benefited.
23:40Who says there was a scam, ma'am? There could have been certain deficiencies.
23:46You know, Akshita, what I'm particularly disappointed about today on your show is that these arguments are coming from a doctor.
23:57You know, can you imagine a doctor waxing eloquent about the non-existent Mohalla Clinic?
24:02I'm challenging you name one AAP leader, one AAP minister who has been to Mohalla Clinic.
24:08Atish, she was on record when she was interviewed. She said she has never been to Mohalla Clinic.
24:12If your Mohalla Clinic was so good, why were they shying away from using it? Point number one.
24:17Point number two, he's talking about the health indices of Delhi. Delhi is the nation's capital.
24:22The health indices were always way better than many other states he's mentioning.
24:26Who is he trying to be fool over here? You know, I think the least Aam Aadmi Party can do today is to acknowledge, yes, there were massive goof ups.
24:35There were massive inconsistencies and we own up, we are taking responsibilities.
24:40That's what you need to say today. You're not saying that. And like I said, I'm very sorry.
24:44I feel very sad that, you know, a doctor is making such arguments.
24:47Mr. Piyush Joshi, you know, to respond to what Tuhin Sinha said, I get a sense that you are saying that let there be an investigation if there are irregularities. Yes?
24:58You know, whatever CAG has done, when we discussed about that alleged liquor policy scam,
25:03you know, there was loss of profit, loss of revenue, which was going to be earned by the Delhi government,
25:09which was mentioned in the CAG report on liquor policy, which vindicated our point.
25:13So when we talk about the healthcare infrastructure, there are two kinds of audit.
25:16One is the financial aspect of audit, which is conducted by the CAG.
25:19Another is the medical audit. Conduct a medical audit, find out how the people of Delhi have benefited by Mohalla Clinic.
25:26Conduct medical audit everywhere in the nation and find out how their healthcare infrastructure is doing all across the nation.
25:33We are talking, I'm happy for one thing, you know, that at least Mr. Tuhin Sinha,
25:37the official BJP spokesperson admitted that Delhi is doing much better on all the healthcare indices as compared to states,
25:44which are being run by the Bharatiya Janata Party, double and triple engine ki sarkar, for last 20 odd years, 25 odd years.
25:50So in last 25 years, BJP could not improve their healthcare indices.
25:53I have come from a state of Madhya Pradesh. In the case of infant mortality rate, Madhya Pradesh is topping since last 20 years.
25:59Madhya Pradesh is number one when it comes to infant mortality for last 20 years.
26:03Closing comments, closing comments. You know, there's all of this talk of scam, but Tuhin Sinha, can the BJP afford to preach is what Aam Aadmi Party is questioning here.
26:10No, no. First of all, again, my words have been distorted.
26:14I said being the national capital of India, Delhi was always supposed to be way better in terms of cash,
26:21you know, health indices than other states. Where did I name anything?
26:24You know, please don't mislead people on India today. The viewers of India today, everybody is aware how you have looted Delhi.
26:33And that is the reason why, you know, you have been reduced from 63 seats to a mere 22 seats.
26:38Now, I think the least Aam Aadmi Party can do is to own up and say, we goofed up.
26:42We, you know, there was corruption. We will improve. We will do better than this.
26:47What I can assure you today is that, you know, the Aam Aadmi Party today is still demanding, when is the medical audit coming out?
26:53We will get to the bottom of everything possible to make sure that all of the glaring inconsistencies of Aam Aadmi Party government,
27:02the corruption is exposed and Arvind Kejriwal rightly goes where he is supposed to be, which is behind bars.
27:08Dheer Joshi, will you concede that these reports, first the excise policy and now this on health,
27:14is denting the Aam Aadmi Party's image of being corruption free?
27:18There is only 3% vote difference, you know, and we will bridge them next time.
27:23So, it is, you know, just to count the number of seats is a little bit preposterous and overconfident on the part of the Aam Aadmi Party.
27:31The only problem with Mr. Arvind Kejriwal was that, I have told on your program as well,
27:36that he dared to talk about healthcare and education system and he dared to provide those facilities that are of good quality to the people of Delhi,
27:46who could not afford it, you know, in a country run on emotive issues.
27:50So, the least Bharatiya Janata Party can do is to fulfil its promises, which it has made, you know, big, big promises to the people of Delhi
27:58and just work on that particular thing that they don't turn out to be the Modi's Jumlas.
28:03Those are kind of guarantees which the Bharatiya Janata Party has made to the people of Delhi.
28:08Fulfil them and as far as Delhi is concerned, we will bridge those 3% votes in the very next election, rest assured, sir.
28:15Okay, alright. We will see what happens.
28:18Two of the 14 pending CAG reports have been tabled and we have been seeing a fight to win.
28:23I have run out of time, I am sorry.
28:25But thank you very much gentlemen for joining us here on India Today.
28:28You have heard from the BJP and AAP and with of course the rest of the CAG reports to be tabled,
28:35we will see how this plays out politically as well.
28:38Congress's top man in Karnataka, D.K. Shivkumar is now under his own party's radar
28:44and this because he attended Mahashivratri celebrations at Sadhguru's ashram
28:49and days after he visited the Mahakumba as well where he praised the administration
28:54and the efforts they have taken in going ahead and conducting the Mahakumba.
28:59All of this has led to the Congress seeing red, questioning D.K. Shivkumar's intent of attending these events.
29:05The BJP is making a monster of this with them claiming that D.K. Shivkumar is the next Eknath Shinde
29:12and that he is on the verge of a political flip of shifting allegiance to the BJP.
29:18Here's our next report.
29:20After Karnataka Deputy CM D.K. Shivkumar celebrated Shivratri with Sadhguru alongside Home Minister Amit Shah,
29:29speculation about the Congress leader joining BJP has flared up again.
29:35The buzz around his political future has forced Shivkumar to clear the air.
29:43D.K. Shivkumar Speaking in Tamil
29:58Regarding his visit to Sadhguru's ashram, the Congress leader had already clarified his stance.
30:06D.K. Shivkumar Speaking in Tamil
30:25The BJP however is shipping in the choppy waters of Karnataka politics.
30:33D.K. Shivkumar Speaking in Tamil
30:50D.K. Shivkumar Speaking in Tamil
31:17Many Congress leaders have bagged Shivkumar.
31:20D.K. Shivkumar Speaking in Tamil
31:39The rift within Congress over CM's post is a known fact.
31:43There is an uneasy between CM Siddharamaiah and Shivkumar.
31:47But how long will it last?
31:50Vidyagarjun Dwarkanath, Bureau Report, India Today.
31:57Alright, let's introduce our panel tonight to talk really about what's happening within the Karnataka Congress,
32:03what's with the anger within the Congress over D.K. Shivkumar being part of a Mahashivratri event.
32:08We've got Tuhin Sinha staying on with us, National Spokesperson of the Bharatiya Janata Party,
32:13Dhruv Jhati, Spokesperson of the Karnataka Congress,
32:16and Sandeep Shastri, National Coordinator of Lok Neti Network.
32:19Good evening, gentlemen. Thank you for joining me here on To The Point.
32:22Mr. Sandeep Shastri, I'll begin with you.
32:25Is this the BJP essentially, you know, kind of creating more drama
32:30in a situation where you already got a lot of chaos within the Karnataka Congress?
32:34Or do you think there is some merit, some truth to this possibility of D.K. Shivkumar switching over?
32:42See, everybody is fishing in the troubled political waters.
32:48And it's a wonderful story to occupy space and time.
32:55Now, I think we need to make a few points very clear.
33:00Shivkumar has been known to be very loyal to the party.
33:05And there have been occasions in the past also when similar points have been made.
33:10And he has consistently maintained that position.
33:14Let's also accept the fact that in Karnataka, be it the Congress, be it the BJP,
33:18there has been tremendous infighting within both parties.
33:23And this jockeying for stances and positions and attacking leaders is always there.
33:30Why is it difficult to make a distinction between the personal religious preferences of people
33:38and the political stance that the party takes?
33:42So I would basically see a ripple being created in a political pond
33:50just to ensure that the rivalries, the attacks, the differences between parties
34:00and the sniping of one party at another continues to happen.
34:05And I think this is the part of the fun of politics.
34:10And I really don't think anything serious should be taken out of the situation.
34:15I think both sides are trying to take the best benefit of the situation.
34:20Both sides, I don't know. But Sandeep Shastri, just stay with me.
34:23Dhruv, you know, the question that's constantly being asked is,
34:27is there no space within the Congress to practice your faith, practice your religion,
34:31go ahead and express your beliefs?
34:34Who said, Akshata? I mean, I also did listen to your intro where you, you know,
34:39stated about whether the Congress has space in order to practice your religion.
34:44I mean, has there ever been a question in official communique from the party?
34:48Let me tell you why. Mr. P. V. Mohan, who's part of your party,
34:52questioned why D. K. Shivkumar chose to be a part of the Mahashivratri celebrations.
34:56That's where this stemmed from.
34:58And that's why D. K. Shivkumar has had to issue three clarifications.
35:01Right, Akshata. And that's, you know, the AICC general secretary's personal view.
35:07And hasn't there been questions in the BJP before?
35:10Hasn't L. K. Advani questioned Modi on tremendous issues?
35:12Hasn't Yashwant Sinha questioned the BJP on economy?
35:15Arun Shiroli on Modi's dark traits? Subramaniam Swamy on various tax regimes?
35:19I mean, there is internal democracy in parties.
35:21And it's his personal opinion. It has nothing to do with the official party stand.
35:25And I don't think you or I, none of us have seen an official communique from the party
35:29saying anywhere that, you know, D. K. Shivkumar's attendance for the program was condemned.
35:34OK, but this is an AICC general secretary. We surely take him seriously.
35:39It's an isolated, it's an isolated, it's an isolated view and clearly a minority view.
35:43What stops then the Congress from coming out and issuing a statement and saying,
35:47look, D. K. Shivkumar is one of us.
35:49We have no problem with him being a part of the Kumbh,
35:52being a part of the Mahashivratri celebrations.
35:55It's a personal view. I mean, you see, D. K. Shivkumar, our honourable KPCC president,
36:01started his journey in the Congress in 1982, in the NSU, at the grassroot of the Congress party.
36:07And there is no question when it comes to his loyalty.
36:11And, you know, we're speaking over here of a staunch congressman.
36:14And no matter how many words I put forth over here,
36:17it doesn't justify the amount of sacrifice that he has done to the party over the past 40 years.
36:22Because since 1982, it's been 40 years in 2020 when he went on to become the KPCC president.
36:28So I don't see a necessity of any of that. His loyalty is unquestionable.
36:33Okay. Tuhin Sinha, you know, your opening comment on this entire issue,
36:37the BJP seems to be trying to fish in troubled waters, making the most of the situation,
36:41trying to claim that D. K. Shivkumar is the next Eknath Shinde.
36:48Well, Akshita, the way I see it, sensible leaders in the Congress party
36:53are finally beginning to give it back to the top leadership for its repeated disregard for Hindu sentiment.
37:00So if you look at it on 27th January, Khargeji had made that statement,
37:04that kumbh mein kya rakha hai, gareebi hatao. And look at how Congress leaders started going for kumbh after that.
37:11You know, be it Sachin Pilot, be it D. K. Shivkumar. And we also saw how D. K. Shivkumar was subsequently punished.
37:17Two days after he went for kumbh, there was an investor summit in Karnataka.
37:23And at the last moment, both Rahul Gandhi and, you know, Khargeji backed out.
37:27Now, when it comes to Sadhguru's ashram's visit, Sadhguruji in front of D. K. Shivkumar had, you know,
37:35had praised the decision to abrogate Article 370. And by, you know, being, by happily listening to that,
37:43D. K. Shivkumar has confirmed that he too has nationalist sentiments, which is alien to the present-day Congress party.
37:50I think that is the big point. Has he issued a clarification? Has he, has he said,
37:54Sadhguruji should not have spoken about Kashmir? Sadhguruji spoke very, very categorically about,
38:00about the good decision, about how Article 3, abrogation of Article 370 has opened a new chapter in Kashmir's politics.
38:07And, you know, from the reaction of D. K. Shivkumar, it seemed that he was perfectly in agreement.
38:13I think that is where you see clear differences in his ideology with the existing Congress party.
38:18Dhruv, your response to this, you know, while D. K. Shivkumar is well within his right to go for the kumbh,
38:23go for Mahashivratri, the contrast in the stand of what D. K. Shivkumar has said versus what the high command has said is glaring.
38:31See, Akshay, just a few replies to Tuhin before we go forward.
38:34I think the BJP never misses a chance, you know, to make everything a vulgar tirade of religious toxicity.
38:39And there was a kind of a misleading statement over here.
38:42Much before Khargeji's statement, we had our Honorable Speaker from the Karnataka, Honorable Shri U. T. Khadar,
38:49who, in fact, from a different religion, went to the Kumbh Mela himself because he, in fact, embraces and,
38:55and, you know, likes to express himself in religious cultural events.
38:58So this has nothing to do with the statement that was made then.
39:00No, that's great. That's great, Dhruv. And that's a great message.
39:02But my question is, when Mr. D. K. Shivkumar goes to the Kumbh, that's perfectly fine.
39:06If your party is okay with it, that's even better.
39:08But when he comes out and says that the Kumbh has been greatly organized,
39:11and you have, on the other hand, Congress leaders saying, no, it's not,
39:14then there's an obvious question about who's right here.
39:17See, Mr. Shivkumarji has attended the Kumbh Mela on a personal capacity.
39:22It's his personal experience. He has expressed it himself.
39:26And I don't think there's much more of a clarification that has to be given to that.
39:30And again, there were some, you know, allegations made about what Sadhguru said.
39:33I don't think I or anybody from the Congress or my Honorable KPCC President is a spokesperson of Isha Foundation
39:38or of Mr. Sadhguru to speak anything about what he had spoken about Article 371 and its abrogation in Kashmir.
39:45Anything that comes across as national importance is something that, you know,
39:48has to be taken across in a more sensitive matter.
39:51And I don't think it's necessary for any of us to comment on it.
39:54The challenge is, when I referred to Mr. PV Mohan's comment, an AICC General Secretary,
39:58you said it's his personal comment. When I referred to DK Shivkumar, you said that too is his personal comment.
40:04How do we draw the line of what's the party stand versus what's a personal comment?
40:08Akshita, so you think the party is going to put a stand, you know, handcuffing the leader saying,
40:13don't go for this event, don't go for that event.
40:15Everybody has their freedom, right to profess, practice any religion.
40:20My KPCC President went for a spiritual event and that's his personal belief.
40:25Tuhin, it means essentially that in the Congress, democracy is thriving. What's wrong with that?
40:31Of course it is. Yes, of course it is.
40:35Tuhin?
40:36You know, like, I hate to say this, but the present day Congress party is allergic to Hindu sentiments.
40:43It is allergic to national interest. Look at the way Shashi Tharoor was treated immediately after he praised,
40:48you know, Prime Minister Modi's visit to the US. He was called by Rahul Gandhi for the last many years.
40:53He had been struggling for a one-to-one meeting with Rahul Gandhi, but to reprimand him, he was immediately called.
40:58So, this Congress party has a fundamental problem. Look at the list of leaders who have left the party in the last few years.
41:04You know, whether it was Jyotiraditya Sindhya, whether it was Muralidevra, again, both Muralidevra and Jyotiraditya Sindhya
41:12had major differences on the issue of abrogation of Article 370 with the existing Congress leadership.
41:16Look at the way, you know, other leaders have left the party, Himanta Biswa Sharma.
41:20So, I think the Congress party has become indifferent for it. For the present day Congress party,
41:25it is no big deal if a few other leaders walk out. You know, it thrives in its growing obsolescence.
41:31It thrives in its redundancy. It doesn't matter to them whether they are reduced to, you know,
41:37two or three states or to get wiped out even from there.
41:40Okay, Dhruv, your response.
41:41You know what itches the BJP the most? What itches the BJP the most is when a Congress leader attends any of the Hindu programs
41:48and it's put out in public. That's what itches the BJP the most. And you can clearly see it.
41:53Whether it's their response at the state level or the national level, they have a huge problem
41:57when the Congress leaders are at any program that's related to Hinduism.
42:00And, you know, to be fair, you look anywhere in the political circles, you have mamas everywhere
42:06appreciating DK Shivkumarji for attending any of these programs and that's what itches the BJP
42:11because that's what's going to hurt them when it comes towards their vote bank.
42:14It's quite evident and all this frustration that you see on television is clearly valid.
42:19It speaks for itself.
42:20Okay, I'll take that to Tuhin but also Dhruv to respond to what Tuhin Sinha has said
42:25where he listed out leaders of the Congress who were seemingly unhappy and then because nothing happened,
42:31they ended up leaving the party. Look at what's happening with Mr. Shashi Tharoor.
42:34DK Shivkumar clearly is not towing the party's line on issues right now.
42:39Are all of these tell-tale signs?
42:41Not signs. I think this is more or less, you know, made up stories by the media and everyone put together.
42:48The DK Shivkumarji, like I told you, he's 40 years in the Congress.
42:51He has Congress written all over his political journey. How do you question such a man?
42:56Because there's a stand taken by the high command and the DK Shivkumar comes out and says,
43:00No, I didn't face it. I was perfectly, I enjoyed the Mahakumbh experience.
43:04The administration has done a great job. He's praising the BJP.
43:07He's not praising the BJP. He's praising the event that took place.
43:11It's a religious event, an event that all of us must be embracing and my leader has embraced it to its fullest.
43:17It is the BJP when Congress leaders embrace such events.
43:20I have a valid question here. Is the BJP scared of their vote bank being diluted by any chance?
43:25Tuhin, your response.
43:28Oh, clearly a very itchy Congress spokesperson. You know, he knows everything that itches the BJP.
43:34The fact is that we enjoy Congress leaders coming for Hindu festivals.
43:38Point is, when is the Gandhi family going to come? A mere distance of 126 kilometers from Ameti,
43:44130 kilometers from Braibareli to Prayagraj could not be traversed.
43:48You have to answer for the Gandhi family. People hardly, you know, think, at least as of today,
43:53people hardly believe DK Sukumar has a long future in the Congress party.
44:01Sooner than later, he might ditch you.
44:03What difference does it make whether he goes to Kumbh or whether he doesn't?
44:07For us, we celebrate Kumbh and we are very happy with Sachin Payalit,
44:11with DK Sukumar, with Mr. Sukumar coming to the Mahakumbh.
44:15So Dhruv, there's your answer. Tuhin Sinha has answered your question,
44:19saying we're very happy if the Congress turns up there.
44:21Then please do appreciate it that DK Sukumar attended all these events.
44:25No, he did. He appreciated it. The question right now is being asked.
44:28Fair enough.
44:29Of course we, of course.
44:30Fair enough. That answers all questions.
44:32No, Dhruv, the question at the end of the day is this,
44:34is whether DK Sukumar is not towing the party's line openly, brazenly,
44:39you know, going away from what the party has said on issues like Kumbh,
44:43which has been the biggest political narrative that the opposition has been putting forth in the last many weeks.
44:48Attending a religious event, attending a spiritual event.
44:50Not attending. Dhruv, it's about the comments he made.
44:53About the arrangements at Kumbh.
44:55Yeah, that's just personal experience, like I've said earlier.
44:58And he's free to express what he feels like.
45:01I mean, have you seen the party issue any notice, any summons, anything against what he has said?
45:06Has there been any stance of the Congress? Has there been any communique?
45:10Yes, of course.
45:11I did give you a communique, but you told me that that's a personal account.
45:15That's an isolated, that's an isolated instance of one person.
45:19The Congress is filled with a number of members.
45:21Please tell me if that's a minority of you or a majority of you.
45:25Okay. You know, I can only quote to you what leaders have said.
45:29Now, to every quote I'm giving you, you're telling me it's a personal account.
45:33It is a minority of you.
45:35It's one person. Please, please show me more people who have spoken against my KPCC president.
45:39You know, two days after DK Sivakumar went to Prayagraj,
45:48both Khargeji and Rahul Gandhi backed out of a Karnataka investor summit meet.
45:53You know, that is worse than a show cause notice.
45:55You are jeopardizing the interest of an entire state because you don't agree with the politics.
45:59You don't agree with the personal choices of your leader.
46:02And, you know, here you are saying that we don't issue notice.
46:05You don't have the guts to issue notice to DK Sivakumar.
46:08He's your money bag right now.
46:10He's controlling your politics in that particular state.
46:13You know that your government will fall the day he quits the party.
46:16So how can you issue a show cause notice to him?
46:18You will jeopardize his programs. You will jeopardize his initiatives,
46:21which is the typical Congress politics.
46:23Okay, Dhruv, quickly your response and then I have to bring in Mr. Sandeep Shastri. Go ahead, Dhruv.
46:28The leader of opposition and our honourable AICC president had to attend to parliamentary matters.
46:33And I'm sure, Dhruv Mehta, if he's followed the invest in Karnataka so closely,
46:37he must have seen the amount of investment that the government has brought through,
46:40over five lakh crore rupees on hold.
46:42And I think it was a great successful program.
46:44And if you want to speak about various narratives,
46:46let's talk about Vijendra and Yatnal's fight in Karnataka.
46:49I mean, I'm sure, I'm not, I'm not too sure if you know Kannada or not,
46:51but you can play musical chairs in the, you know, sequence of musical audios.
46:55And you should listen.
46:56When we debate that, surely, why not?
46:59Exactly.
47:00Dhruv, you've raised a valid point.
47:02When India today conducts a debate on that, why not?
47:05Why don't you listen to one, one clipping of Yatnal and translate it to Hindi?
47:09And then you, and then you will know what the situation is of BJP in Karnataka.
47:12No, no, when India today conducts a debate on that, of course, on that day.
47:15No, let me, let me bring this back.
47:17Let me bring this back to Mr. Sandeep Shastri.
47:20Let me bring this back to Mr. Sandeep Shastri.
47:22Gentlemen, just give me a few moments, whereas we're running out of time.
47:25So I want to give Mr. Sandeep Shastri the last word on this.
47:28Mr. Sandeep Shastri, you've heard there from the BJP and the Congress.
47:31The BJP, of course, has their own issues of infighting in the Karnataka BJP unit.
47:37But for the Congress, Mr. Shastri, what do you think really is the messaging that goes across?
47:42Because at the time that we're talking about what's happening with DK Shivkumar,
47:45you have a Mr. Shashi Tharoor, who reportedly is also MIFTO,
47:48who were not having any responsibilities, approached the high command, was allegedly snubbed.
47:52Do you think all of this is sending out a message that the Congress and the high command
47:56isn't really holding or reining in their leaders?
48:00No. At one level, we talk of the need for internal democracy in parties.
48:06And at another level, when people do say what they think in their personal capacities,
48:13we read too much into what is going on.
48:16I think for the sake of an exciting political debate, I think we are reading too much into situations.
48:23We are reading too much into developments.
48:27The BJP spokesperson was right in saying that there has been a stream of leaders
48:32who have left the Congress and joined the BJP, which is a reality.
48:36But then, does it therefore mean that the same thing is again happening?
48:41Are we reading too much into the developments that are happening?
48:44Do leaders don't have personal preferences, both within the BJP and within the Congress?
48:50Is not infighting within both the parties in Karnataka a reality?
48:55And because of that infighting in both parties,
48:58is the other party trying to take the best advantage of the situation?
49:02This is something we are seeing for quite some time in Karnataka politics.
49:06And these events become like a sideshow in politics to keep the excitement going.
49:13My takeaway from what's happening right now is never say never in Karnataka politics.
49:17Anything is possible.
49:19And all sorts of comments, of course, are made from every single side
49:22to keep the political fire also raging.
49:24Dhruv Tuhin and Mr. Sandeep Shastri, thank you very much for your time.
49:28Thank you for joining us on this broadcast.
49:30Endless speculation, of course, over DK Shivkumar.
49:33Three times he's confirmed I am very much a congressman.
49:37But then there are questions about whether the Congress unit itself
49:40is unhappy with DK Shivkumar's stand on certain issues
49:44where they've had the complete contrasting stand.