Former Congress MP Sajjan Kumar has been sentenced to life imprisonment in a second case related to the 1984 anti-Sikh pogrom.
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00:00Good evening, hello and welcome, you're with the news today.
00:04This is your primetime destination, news, newsmakers, talking points, news without the
00:09noise.
00:11Justice in the 1984 anti-Sikh pogrom, 40 years too late, ex-Congress MP Sajjan Kumar sentenced
00:20to life imprisonment, is that enough?
00:23Also Donald Trump's latest googly, a gold card for the super rich from outside America,
00:33what does that mean?
00:34Also Mahakum, faith, commerce and politics on Mahashivratri, we'll be joined by Srishi
00:41Ravi Shankar in an exclusive interview.
00:44But first, as always, it's time for the 9 headlines at 9 to 9.
00:50Union Home Minister Amit Shah now rejects Tamil Nadu Chief Minister MK Stalin's delimitation
00:56charge, says Tamil Nadu's Lok Sabha seats won't be decreased after delimitation.
01:02Chief Minister Stalin insists delimitation is a sword hanging over southern states.
01:11There's a rise of a new potential alliance in Tamil Nadu, Talapathy Vijay and election
01:16strategist Prashant Kishore mark one year anniversary of TVK, Vijay promises to uphold
01:21secularism and democracy.
01:26Cabinet expansion in Bihar ahead of assembly polls, seven BJP MLAs take oath as ministers
01:32in Nitish Kumar's cabinet, Bihar BJP Chief Dilip Jaiswal resigns as minister.
01:41Government buzz over Arvind Kejriwal's next move after losing New Delhi assembly polls.
01:47Sources say Kejriwal may consider entering parliament through Rajya Sabha.
01:51This after an ARP MP Sanjeev Arora is fielded from Ludhiana West Assembly by poll.
01:59Rescue operations continue at the tunnel in Telangana where eight workers remain trapped.
02:05Authorities have roped in Marine Commandos and Border Roads Organization to try and rescue
02:09the trapped workers.
02:11A 26-year-old is raped inside a transport bus in Pune, accused still on the run.
02:18NCW takes sewer motor cognizance, Deputy Chief Minister Ajit Pawar vows to nab the accused
02:23at the earliest as the Shiv Sena Uddhav Balasaheb Thackeray group goes on the rampage in protest.
02:31Mahakum ends on Mahashivratri, government says over 1.4 crore people took holy dip at
02:37Triveni Sangam on the last day.
02:39They claim the total tally was above 66 crore people.
02:44Ukrainian President Zelensky says framework on economic deal with the US almost ready
02:49but security guarantee is yet to be decided.
02:52Trump says Zelensky wants to visit Washington to sign the minerals deal.
02:59Trump now claims super-rich migrants are welcome to the United States.
03:03You can buy a $5 million gold card for US citizenship.
03:07Trump plans to sell 1 million such gold cards.
03:20But our top story tonight, US President Donald Trump once again making the headlines with
03:25his verbal googly's.
03:27He's now announced a visa scheme for the super-rich migrants.
03:32The gold card will cost $5 million, according to Donald Trump.
03:37The gold card will replace the EB-5 visas for investors and could even put a question
03:42mark over the traditional green card that the US offered.
03:46Gold card will pave the way, according to Trump, for faster citizenship.
03:50What does this mean, we'll find out in a moment.
03:52But first, listen in to what Donald Trump had to say on his new gold card scheme.
04:07This is a gold card.
04:08We're going to be putting a price on that card of about $5 million and that's going
04:12to give you green card privileges plus.
04:15It's going to be a route to citizenship and wealthy people will be coming into our country
04:21by buying this card.
04:22They'll be wealthy and they'll be successful and they'll be spending a lot of money and
04:26paying a lot of taxes and employing a lot of people.
04:29And we think it's going to be extremely successful and never been done before anything like this.
04:34And it's something that we're going to be putting out over the next, would you say,
04:37two weeks out?
04:38Do you want to say a couple of words about?
04:40Okay, let's go straight across to Rajneesh Patil.
04:44He's founder and CEO of Global North and looks closely at immigration issues.
04:48Appreciate you're joining us, Rajneesh.
04:50Try and explain what this gold card would mean.
04:52We've seen Dubai, for example, give gold cards to golden visas to Indian citizens and that's
04:59been rather successful.
05:00What is this American scheme like?
05:02Is it very similar to the golden visa for Dubai?
05:07Thank you Rajdeep for having me on today's session.
05:11And yes, we were all surprised this morning, we woke up to this news and my phone has not
05:16stopped ringing since 5am in the morning.
05:19So you're right.
05:20When Dubai golden visa started, it was a 5 million and a 10 million option to start with
05:26in 2019.
05:27This was dirhams, obviously, and subsequently it was bought down to 2 million dirhams.
05:33So where Dubai golden visa stands today is at 2 million dirhams.
05:36But this is not new, actually, this is not unprecedented.
05:39There are multiple countries across the world who has something of this nature, right?
05:44So for example, Malta has a citizenship program, which is 1 million donation to the government
05:50or cost.
05:51So this program has existed for a while Rajdeep and they have been lapped up in some cases.
05:59But what we see is when the price is too high, and the value is not the same, I think there
06:03are other country options available as well.
06:07So the US is offering, correct me if I'm wrong, Rajneesh, about 5 million dollars, which would
06:12be what 45 crores that you'd have to get.
06:16And in addition to that, you have to create a certain number of jobs.
06:18Is that also part of the deal or is it a straight 45 crores I get, I can get a golden
06:23card and where does that leave the old green card?
06:26So frankly, there is no clarity because there are no rules that are out as yet.
06:32And that is what he indicated on the video you showed, that in two weeks time will be
06:36out.
06:37But he did indicate that there will be a job creation linkage.
06:40Now, how does it happen?
06:42Who has to create the jobs for how long is very, very unclear at this point in time.
06:49But if he's talking of reducing the deficit in the same breath, right, then he's clearly
06:53talking of giving the money in the US coffers, right, and to US.
06:59He's not talking of then job creation, it cannot be linked to job creation directly
07:03then.
07:04And where does that leave Rajneesh the old green card?
07:08So there is an EB-5 program which is existing, and which is one of the gentlemen from the
07:14press pointed out as well during his interaction, that there is an existing EB-5 program.
07:20Now that program as it stands is as is right and it has been reauthorized till 2027, which
07:28is when for five years it got reauthorized in March of 2022.
07:32So for five years, it is a law.
07:34So EB-5 is not a program it is not under the government, it is a law passed by the Congress.
07:40So I am not too sure whether Trump can with executive order, cancel it, make any changes,
07:48it will have to go to the due process of the Congress, it cannot be done with an executive order.
07:54So as usual, an element of uncertainty there, but clearly, Donald Trump now looking to even
07:59make a business deal out of US citizenship with this gold card.
08:03Rajneesh there for joining me, I appreciate you giving us your perspective as someone
08:08who tracks the immigration issues for your company very closely.
08:12Thank you so much.
08:13Thank you Rajneesh.
08:14Let me, let me turn from there to the story that I want to make my talking point tonight.
08:19Former Congress MP, a strong man of Delhi, Sajjan Kumar was sentenced to life term in
08:25a 1984 anti Sikh pogrom, I'm using the word pogrom and not riot case of 1984.
08:32Sajjan Kumar is already serving life sentence in another case.
08:36And the question that I want to ask today is why does it take the wheels of justice
08:41to move in a manner that 40 years later, a sentence is finally handed out in this case.
08:48Our reporter Amit Bhardwaj met victims of the 1984 pogrom, who shared what they went
08:54through four decades ago, and what the 40 year old fight has meant for them.
08:59Then I'll ask the question, justice delayed, justice denied.
09:03Take a look.
09:05October 31st, 1984, Prime Minister Indira Gandhi is assassinated by her Sikh bodyguards,
09:14triggering a wave of mob attacks on innocent Sikhs across Delhi.
09:21By the time the madness ended, over 2,700 were dead, as per official records.
09:30Shammi Kaur vividly remembers what happened on the night of October 31st, and the days
09:38that followed, days that changed their lives forever.
10:00A good soul gave Shammi and her 15-year-old daughter, Pappi Kaur, shelter.
10:28The next day.
10:44When they returned, nothing was left.
10:58This photograph, which is placed prominently in their house in Trilokpuri, that was allocated
11:09to them as riot relief, is the only picture she has of her father.
11:28Pappi Kaur, who sells vegetables, has spent much of her life fighting for justice, attending
11:44trials every single day.
11:58Lakshmi Kaur's husband, Gyan Singh, was 34 when he was killed.
12:11They were living in Sultanpuri B3 neighbourhood when riots broke out.
12:28She got refuge in a gurdwara, and later the Sadar Bazar police station, before moving
12:47to Trilokpuri in 1985.
12:51Glancing through a book on riots, she relives her struggle for justice.
12:58There were old tyres in the factory.
13:02All the tyres were set free.
13:05The petrol pumps were set free.
13:10The name of the village was strange.
13:14If 50 people stand in front of a Sikh house, what can two people do?
13:22It's a battle, a long battle, to ensure justice is given to them.
13:29And many families are saying that irrespective of this life imprisonment for the Sikh, what
13:36they demand is death penalty for those behind the killings of the Sikhs during 1984 riots.
13:44With video journalist Manish Bidhuri, this is Amit Bhardwaj reporting for India Today
13:48from Delhi.
13:52Justice delayed is justice denied is one of the oldest truisms.
13:56Has justice really been done to the victims of the 1984 anti-Sikh pogrom?
14:00Joining me now, Colin Gonsalves, Senior Advocate, Supreme Court, and H.S.
14:04Phulka, Senior Advocate, Supreme Court, who has fought tirelessly for the victims of the
14:101984 pogrom.
14:11Appreciate both of you joining us.
14:13I want your views, Mr. Phulka first.
14:16Sajjan Kumar, now sentenced to life imprisonment in a second case involving murder, but it's
14:22taken 40 years.
14:23It's taken 40 years.
14:24You've had several commissions of inquiry.
14:26You've had SIT, CBI inquiries.
14:29Why did it take so long?
14:32Actually, right from the very beginning, these killings were done by the government with
14:43the aid of the government machinery.
14:46The government was fully involved and these people were only following the instructions
14:52of their bosses.
14:54So, after these killings, they were rewarded.
14:58We are talking about the punishment.
15:01The government was busy rewarding them.
15:05Obviously, they tried to completely shield them, completely shelter them.
15:12The cases were not registered.
15:15And after a long battle, when we managed to get the case registered, then the charge sheet
15:21cases were closed.
15:22Charge sheet was not filed.
15:24Then again, after a long battle, when we managed to file the charge sheet, when it goes to
15:29the court, then the judges, they manipulate the judges.
15:33If any judge passes the order in favor of the victim, he is transferred.
15:37The roster of the high court is changed.
15:39These kind of things.
15:41This is what was happening right from the very beginning.
15:45So, you are saying, Mr. Phulka, right from the beginning, right from Sajjan Kumar, who
15:52was rewarded in your view, became a multiple times MP at that time, to the government machinery,
15:58to the courts, to the police, all of them in some way were involved in blocking justice,
16:04each and every one of them, or do you single out one particular individual or agency?
16:09No, no, no, no.
16:14Everyone.
16:15You see, H.K. Alpagat, the main mastermind.
16:18He was promoted and made the junior minister.
16:21Earlier, he was the minister of state before 1984.
16:24Jagdish Chatterjee.
16:26He was not in cabinet in 1984.
16:28He was a member of parliament.
16:29He was promoted and made the minister.
16:31Now, Kamal Nath.
16:36Kamal Nath after that was rewarded, made the minister and after that the chief minister.
16:41Now, each and every police officer against whom the allegations came, he was promoted
16:48given the plum posting and most of them got 3-3 promotions.
16:53Now, I give you the example.
16:55In the Trilokpuri area, which you were also there at that time in journalism,
17:01in Trilokpuri area where Rahul Bedi and Joseph Malayakin had gone and witnessed it
17:08and said that how that SHO was also involved in the killing.
17:13In that police station only, according to official figure, over 300 Sikhs were killed.
17:20And what he does?
17:22He seizes the weapons of the Sikhs.
17:25He arrests them and then hand over their homes and their children and their women to the mob.
17:34And that SHO has honorably retired and got promotions.
17:40He retired as ACP.
17:42Similarly, the DCP of East Delhi, Seva Das, in East Delhi, according to the official figure,
17:50on 1st November and on 2nd November, 1,206 official figure Sikhs were killed.
17:57And on 1st and 2nd November, total 26 persons were arrested by him.
18:03All of them were Sikhs.
18:06All of them were Sikhs.
18:08And that Seva Das, DCP was promoted to Official CP,
18:13then he was promoted to Joint CP,
18:15then he was promoted to Special CP and he honorably retired.
18:19So, each, whosoever is named by the victims,
18:23he used to win a lottery.
18:25You're making, in fact, and I must remind our viewers who are perhaps,
18:30I must remind our viewers who are not old enough perhaps,
18:34who were born after 1984, this was Rajiv Gandhi's Congress government,
18:37so the stains, the blood stains remain on that government for what happened in 1984.
18:42And as Mr. Phoolka is pointing out, many of those leaders were members of Parliament,
18:47became ministers, they were quote-unquote according to him,
18:51rewarded for what happened at the time.
18:54I can tell you, I was in college in 1984,
18:57but I covered Trilok Puri 20 years later
19:00in a documentary that we did on the anti-Sikh program 20 years later.
19:05But Colin Gonsalves, is it also one thing that I noticed was witnesses turn hostile?
19:11And we've seen that in several cases, whether it's in 84,
19:15whether it's in 92, 93 or indeed in Gujarat in 2002,
19:19we saw witnesses turning hostile in these cases of mass murder,
19:23of communal violence.
19:25Is that one of the challenges in a way the judicial system faces?
19:30Well, Rajdeep, it's a symbol or it's an instance of the challenge.
19:35But the real challenge is a larger thing.
19:38And we have seen this story repeated from the 94 Bombay riots onwards.
19:43The main thing is that no riot can succeed in India and certainly not in Delhi
19:48unless the government in power fully backs that riot.
19:53So the government is the main conspirator, executor of a riot.
19:57But that is to be expected,
20:00that the government will try and cover up as much as possible.
20:04But then when you have investigations, you will have enormous delays
20:09and then everyone will lament how long it took to get justice
20:14to the victims, the Sikh victims.
20:17But the story repeated itself again in the Delhi riots.
20:21And what you will find is that the very police force
20:25that participated in the riots, covered up for the riots,
20:30helped the accused person, the very police force then turns around
20:34and starts investigating the riots.
20:37So now you come to the last point.
20:40So then the only recourse is the judiciary.
20:43And the judiciary has failed again and again and again.
20:48Because against a powerful government that is engineering riots
20:53and mobilizing public support for the riots,
20:56that government dominates the judiciary.
21:01And the judiciary cannot show spine,
21:04the judiciary cannot show resolve and determination
21:08to carry out and force an independent investigation.
21:12In the Delhi riots case, we went to the Supreme Court immediately
21:16and we said, appoint an SIT of independent officers
21:20and we gave the name of BGPs who are known for fearlessness
21:24and independence. Supreme Court found it a hot potato.
21:28Sent it to the High Court. High Court said, my God,
21:31this is a political hot potato.
21:33For three years and 25 appearances that I've done
21:37before the High Court, I've not managed to get the case started.
21:41Every judge knows, the senior judge knows that
21:45if they pick up the Delhi riots case, order an independent investigation,
21:49say these five BGPs will look at the investigation,
21:53come up with an independent report that will scare the government no end.
21:57They know that if they do that, they will never reach the Supreme Court.
22:01So it's the judiciary at the end.
22:05Everybody else we know, the police and etc.
22:09But the judiciary has no spine to stand up to a government
22:13that has clearly participated and engineered the riots.
22:17So does the buck, Mr. Phulka, then stop with the political executive?
22:21Today when a Sajjan Kumar is finally sentenced after 40 years,
22:25there'll be a sense that in most of those 40 years
22:29you've had Congress governments, but you've also had BJP governments
22:33for a while. Mr. Vajpayee was Prime Minister.
22:37Various commissions were appointed. The Ranganath Mishra, the Nanavati Commission
22:41was appointed. Four commissions, nine committees, two SITs.
22:45Does the buck, you believe, stop with the political executive?
22:49If the political executive said, please prosecute everyone without fear or favour,
22:53the police and the judiciary would have taken the cue. A quick answer.
23:01You see, actually this killing of 1984,
23:05killing of the Sikhs were organised by the Deep State.
23:09It was the intelligence agencies who were involved.
23:13And even after that, whatever may be the government,
23:17that Deep State was protecting them. In 1990, during the
23:21Singh, the case was registered on the recommendation of the Justice Committee.
23:25The CBI goes to arrest Sajjan Kumar. The CBI
23:29is made hostages. The jeeps of the CBI are set on fire.
23:33The cars of the CBI are set on fire. And the CBI is made
23:37hostages and kept their captives.
23:41And Delhi Police didn't help it. So this is the kind of thing which
23:45happened. And like what Colin had said,
23:49whenever there is a mass, it's not only rats,
23:53whenever there is a mass scale violence, it is not possible
23:57without the connivance of the police and the political masters.
24:01And after that, they cover it up totally.
24:05You see, what I have been saying always,
24:09that it is necessary to fight.
24:13Do not give up the fight. It is necessary to send a message
24:17to these political people that if you are in power today,
24:21a day will come when law will catch up with you. And this is what has happened
24:25in case of Sajjan Kumar. He was the first granted life
24:29imprisonment after 24 years.
24:33Yes, you make a very important point, Mr. Phulka.
24:37The law has finally caught up with Mr. Sajjan Kumar,
24:41who is now 80 years old. He was 40 when the anti-Sikh
24:45pogrom took place, in which he was involved and has
24:49now been prosecuted for it. But 40 years?
24:53What does that say about our judicial system? I had Colin and HS Phulka
24:57today because they are two of the brave lawyers of this country who have argued
25:01for the victims over the years. We need many more brave and courageous
25:05people. And I want to salute you, Mr. Phulka, in particular, because you have
25:09taken this almost as a personal challenge over these years, and if it was
25:13not for the Phulkas of the world, perhaps the likes of Sajjan Kumar
25:17would have got away. And that is simply unacceptable. And I want to say this
25:21today, whether it's 84, 92, 93, 2002,
25:25or indeed Muzaffarnagar in 2013,
25:29no one who takes the law into their own hands and kills
25:33someone because simply they belong to a different religion must be forgiven by
25:37the law. They must face the maximum punishment.
25:42And I hope that Sajjan Kumar's case will become a precedent, and next
25:46time it will not take 40 years for prosecution and
25:50punishment. Thank you both, Colin Gonsalves and HS Phulka, for joining me. I want to
25:54turn from there to a major controversy that has erupted in
25:58Maharashtra, with allegations now of corruption against officials
26:02from the all-powerful Mumbai Metropolitan Regional Development Authority.
26:06French consultancy Sistra has claimed that MMRDA
26:10officials began demanding bribes from mid-2023
26:14after a leadership change. The accusations have even led
26:18to a political clash, with the French Embassy now urging Indian authorities
26:22to investigate the matter. What's the case? Take a look.
26:31Embarrassment for the Mahayati government in Maharashtra.
26:35Sistra, a French company that provides
26:39consultancy services to metro projects, has accused
26:43officials of the Mumbai Metropolitan Regional Development Authority
26:47of corruption. It has emerged
26:51that the French Embassy wrote to Indian authorities on November 12
26:55last year to look into the matter.
26:59The Embassy's communication also included representation from Sistra.
27:03The company alleges MMRDA officials began
27:07pressing for monetary benefits, which were thinly veiled as
27:11demands from higher-ups of August 2023,
27:15following a leadership shake-up at the MMRDA.
27:19The bribery charges have sparked a political showdown.
27:25There has been such a serious allegation,
27:27in which there is talk of embarrassment and corruption.
27:31I think this case should be investigated thoroughly.
27:35Until then, the authorities there should be held accountable.
27:39If the authorities are there, there will be no embarrassment from the public.
27:43I want this case to be investigated thoroughly,
27:45and it should be done through the CBI.
27:47This is also one of my demands.
27:49I believe the Chief Minister will certainly
27:51conduct a thorough inquiry.
27:55After that, whatever the case is,
27:57the investigation will be carried out.
27:59After the controversy,
28:01Deputy CM Eknath Chhinde
28:03ordered Additional Chief Secretary
28:05and Managing Director of MMRDA
28:07to conduct an inquiry
28:09into allegations
28:11made by Sistra.
28:15The MMRDA in a statement said
28:17facts in the case have been misrepresented
28:19and there are no prior complaints
28:21made by Sistra.
28:23MMRDA claimed
28:25there were performance deficiency
28:27safety concerns in Sistra's work
28:29and that despite assurances
28:31from Sistra's global CEO
28:33during the Davos Conference
28:35in January 2024
28:37their performance failed to improve.
28:41The Bombay High Court on Tuesday quashed
28:43the MMRDA decision to terminate
28:45its contract with Sistra's
28:47Indian subsidiary for consultancy
28:49services in Mumbai Metro projects.
28:54The MMRDA has defended itself
28:56they have said
28:58there is no evidence in the allegation
29:00which is being made by Sistra
29:02they are also saying
29:04after a suspension notice was given to them
29:06these allegations have been made
29:08prior to this, there were no such
29:10allegations being made
29:12by this contractor.
29:14With CM Kiran Sabkar, Mustafa Sheikh
29:16for India Today.
29:20And joining me now as the
29:22Mahakum ends on this auspicious
29:24day of Mahashivratri is a very special
29:26guest, we are joined
29:28by Gurudev Shri Shri Ravi Shankar
29:30appreciate your joining us
29:32there Gurudev
29:34this is of course an auspicious day
29:36Mahashivratri, the Mahakum
29:38has come to an end
29:40crores of devotees have taken the holy
29:42dip in the Ganga
29:44what explains the phenomenon
29:46of the Mahakum according to you
29:48is it faith, is it a bit
29:50of commerce
29:52is it a bit of politics as well
29:54what do you believe has been the driving
29:56force for crores of devotees
29:58to come every year
30:00every 12 years to the Mahakum
30:04Razip, I see only
30:06three things
30:08you mentioned three, I see three
30:10things, that three thing is
30:12faith
30:14faith and faith
30:16it's the devotion of people
30:18which is driving them there
30:20and you know
30:22it's a deep rooted
30:24faith from
30:26millenniums people have been
30:28you know
30:30looking forward for the sacred
30:32dip
30:34every 12 years
30:36and also many take dip
30:38every year also
30:40the Mela also
30:42happens but every 12 years
30:44is the Mahakum
30:46and every 6 years there is
30:48Mahakum, these are all the festivals
30:50which are so deeply
30:52ingrained in the psyche of India
30:56you know
30:58but it just seems
31:00to get, it just seems Gurudev
31:02to get bigger and bigger
31:04each time, there seems to be a
31:06marketing blitz some would say
31:08also around it that contributes to
31:10people now being far more
31:12attracted to the Mahakum
31:14than they were in earlier times
31:16where many believe the commercial angle
31:18comes, it's also a chance
31:20to show political power
31:22so is it just about spirituality and faith
31:24or does it go well beyond that
31:26no see
31:30commerce follows wherever there is faith
31:32and politics of course
31:34come around that
31:36because this is where the power centre is
31:38people are the power
31:40and people want this and then
31:42for people everything else will happen
31:44these are all the
31:46you know
31:48that obviously surrounds
31:50the central core
31:52which is faith
31:54of course the infrastructure has improved
31:56so much and so people
31:58are finding it easy
32:00to come there
32:02before it was so difficult to come
32:04because people had to book their
32:06trains, there were very few trains
32:08hardly there would be
32:10you know couple of
32:12free trains
32:14or special trains
32:16for Kum before but now
32:18the facilities
32:20have
32:22you know have taken a
32:24quantum leap and that is
32:26where it has made people
32:28given people hope to come
32:30there
32:34has it also therefore become
32:36a bit of a spectacle
32:38religion is often a very private
32:40personal matter
32:42but now when you take the holy dip
32:44you will see celebrities
32:46arriving there with their
32:48VVIPs, photo ops
32:50there seems to be a spectacle
32:52element around it
32:54or do you believe that
32:56sometimes obscures
32:58the faith of millions of anonymous Indians
33:00who also take the holy dip
33:02because the focus seems to be on the celebrities
33:04and VVIPs and not on the anonymous
33:06Indians
33:08I tell you it's not with the general people
33:10general people are not caring who
33:12comes, who takes, who doesn't take
33:14and we must remember even
33:16celebrities are human beings
33:18of course they have food, they have faith
33:20they do everything like
33:22anybody else and they
33:24also want to take dip, what's wrong
33:26with them of course, they need a little bit more security
33:28it's the media
33:30which projects them
33:32because media is used to
33:34only projecting celebrities
33:36common men
33:38they are not bothered, they don't
33:40run after celebrities there
33:42they are very
33:44devoted to their cause, they are
33:46lifting their eyes
33:48this is the moment they
33:50come out of the deep
33:52material
33:54whirlpool that they are into
33:56to raise their eyes
33:58to something ethereal
34:00something that
34:02they can't even explain
34:04everyone who go there
34:06go with this
34:08deep feeling
34:10to get the darshan
34:12and take blessings from
34:14Ganga and Yamuna
34:16the Sangam and then the saints
34:18there, all the
34:20gurus are there, it
34:22showcases the rich
34:24diversity of India
34:26and the spiritual
34:28wealth that we have
34:30and so people are
34:32connected to some
34:40as you said
34:42Gurudev, that the media
34:44chases the celebrities, it's the media
34:46which goes after VVIPs, but should there be
34:48for example, separate arrangement
34:50for VVIPs, or should once
34:52you go to the Kumbh, everyone
34:54be treated equal, whether you are VVIP
34:56or anonymous, much like election
34:58day, do you believe somewhere spirituality
35:00loses out when it gets
35:02tied into photo ops and celebrity hood
35:04and the spectacle
35:06takes over
35:08you know
35:10with the type of crowd
35:12that we have, if we
35:14invite international
35:16guests, you definitely
35:18need to make different
35:20arrangements for them
35:22you know, there are culturally
35:24different
35:26and unless you make some
35:28arrangements for them also
35:30to witness the spectacle
35:32there is nothing wrong in it
35:34I don't see if there is a separate
35:36ghat for some people
35:38who want to come and take dip
35:40people in position, people who are
35:42well known
35:44that should not be a problem
35:46they just come
35:48and take their dip
35:50or whatever and they leave
35:52but you know
35:54that's very small
35:56tiny aspect of Kumbh
35:58and one good thing
36:00is they are not on this
36:02side of the Kumbh
36:04where the main Sangam everybody is taking
36:06dip, the government made arrangements
36:08for them so far away
36:10on the other side, on the other
36:12bank and I don't see
36:14there is any problem there
36:16this also saves
36:18because when celebrity goes up
36:20suppose people want to
36:22you know
36:24go around them and take selfies
36:26take pictures
36:28that will become even more nuisance
36:30it can cause even stampede
36:32you see
36:34people want to take selfies and pictures
36:36they are getting a different
36:38arrangements
36:40it's for law and order
36:42it is needed
36:44there was a stampede in fact
36:46sure
36:48you know there was a stampede in fact
36:50on January 29th and tragic
36:52stampede
36:54there are different figures
36:56of how many people died
36:58should there have been greater remorse
37:00shown when the stampede
37:02takes place, it's the ordinary people
37:04who died, do you believe that therefore
37:06you know there should have been
37:08maybe greater remorse
37:10at the loss of lives
37:14of course there is remorse
37:16and I have personally
37:18met Yogi ji and he was
37:21rushing to the hospital
37:23to meet with the people
37:25and he was so pained
37:27and I was so pained
37:29I was there the next
37:31day there and I could see
37:33you know
37:35how much disaster
37:37has happened
37:39it is really painful
37:41incidence of course
37:43nobody can deny that
37:45and it's unfortunate
37:47it was unseen
37:49it was not foreseen
37:51it was unfortunate
37:53and as you said if celebrities come as a normal
37:55people this type of thing
37:57would have happened even more
37:59everywhere
38:01so this is a very very
38:03that's a dark spot in it
38:05that one incident that has happened
38:07we all pray for the
38:09families who are victims of
38:11this unfortunate
38:13event
38:15that's really painful
38:17and we need to see how
38:19you know in the future
38:21this sort of things can be
38:23avoided
38:27we are seeing whether it is
38:29Mahashivratri today or Mahakumar
38:31the rise many believe of a certain
38:33cultural Hindu consciousness
38:35cultural Hindu consciousness
38:37some would interpret as the rise
38:39of the political Hindu
38:41how do you see the fact that
38:43we are seeing many more people
38:45openly expressing their religiosity
38:47far more overtly
38:49is this a rise of a certain
38:51cultural consciousness according to you
38:53a spiritual consciousness
38:55or a political consciousness
38:57yeah
38:59of course
39:01see in Hindi
39:03they say Rajashtra
39:05unless there is
39:07empowerment
39:09cultural, spiritual
39:11social empowerment
39:13of people they feel suffocated
39:15before also people
39:17used to do
39:19many people of political parties
39:21leaders would come and take day
39:23but they would not do it under cover
39:25they would feel so ashamed
39:27they will go to Mandir they put a tilak
39:29and then they will come out and immediately
39:31rub the tilak
39:33we were not honoring our own
39:35roots
39:37we were ashamed of who we are
39:39because of the colonial rule
39:41now that is
39:43gone so we are
39:45proudly proclaiming who we are
39:47we are honest to ourselves
39:49that dishonesty
39:51that deceit
39:53hypocrisy is gone
39:55I would say people are just open
39:57and that is how people are around
39:59the world
40:01if you go to any other country
40:03they proudly proclaim who they are
40:05and they take pride
40:07in their roots
40:09in this country
40:11that was a big
40:13drawback
40:15even when people go from here to abroad
40:17they will change their names
40:19you see
40:21just to feel
40:23respected
40:25now there is more respect to oneself
40:27one's own roots, one's own culture
40:29there is more empowerment
40:31and I would say
40:33it's a welcome thing that has
40:35happened in the world
40:37they must
40:39be proud of who they are
40:41and not be apologetic
40:43for what their practices
40:45or their faith
40:51it's interesting you are saying that
40:53because I remember Gurudev
40:55Shri Shri Ravi Shankar meeting you during the
40:57Dharam Sansad in 2001
40:59which was also held during the Kumbh
41:01it wasn't called the Mahakumbh
41:03there then in
41:052001
41:07and that Dharam Sansad had all the sadhu sons
41:09coming together appealing for a
41:11for a Ram Mandir to be built
41:13the Mandir then is eventually built
41:15last year the BJP is now
41:17come to power riding many believe on the back of the
41:19Mandir movement in the 1990s
41:21is that political edge still there
41:23which we saw during the Dharam Sansad
41:25or do you believe the politics
41:27has become much less now
41:31as journalist you would
41:33be able to do all those analysis
41:35Rajdeep I don't have time
41:37to sit and analyze
41:39I am everyday engaged with
41:41dealing with
41:43issues that people have
41:45we have huge
41:47challenges with mental
41:49health issues
41:51and we have suicidal tendency that
41:53people are undergoing
41:55Gen Z is very much impacted
41:57with the mental health crisis
41:59so I am so
42:01busy in these sort of thing
42:03political analysis
42:05you would be the best person
42:07to say it you know
42:09and I would say
42:11no I ask
42:13because religion and
42:15politics have often co-existed
42:17ya ya they do co-exist
42:19they have always co-existed
42:21and of course
42:23you know wherever
42:25there are people and there is faith
42:27and politics
42:29is with the people
42:31wherever people are there will be politics
42:33right
42:37you know
42:39devotees take that holy dip
42:41Gurudev
42:43during the Mahakum
42:45in the belief that it has the power to purify
42:47the soul and bring them in some way
42:49closer to liberation
42:51or you know to discover themselves
42:53do you believe that
42:55is that blind faith at one level
42:57that a dip will purify
42:59the soul or do you believe that is
43:01that's an
43:03unfair way to describe it
43:05no this is
43:07perfect because it's like
43:09the dirt on the skin
43:11any dip will purify
43:13your skin because
43:15your soul
43:17is Sachidanand
43:19your soul is full of bliss
43:21your soul is Nitya Shuddha
43:23ever pure
43:26this is the entire
43:28Vedantic
43:30philosophy in a nutshell
43:32that you are
43:34not born out of sin
43:36you are pure by nature
43:38simple thing like a dip
43:40can bring you back to your
43:42true nature
43:44so let go of the past
43:46let go of all the mental
43:48impressions that you are
43:50holding on to unnecessarily and see
43:52your life from a broader perspective
43:55so it is
43:57way for uplifting
43:59one's spirit to higher consciousness
44:01you know
44:03forgiving the past
44:05forgetting the past and coming to the
44:07present it's so psychologically
44:09you know
44:11valid this aspect
44:13that taking a dip, cold dip
44:15and now the scientists
44:17have also come up with
44:19different you know
44:21experiments with the Ganga water
44:23see how it is the most robust
44:25water which has
44:27which
44:29purifies itself and which has
44:31bacteria
44:33it doesn't allow bacteria to grow in it
44:35you must have heard about those things
44:37and you know
44:39another beautiful thing has happened
44:41Gurudev
44:43there is a debate
44:45there is a debate
44:47on that the central pollution control
44:49board has spoken about
44:51the water being infected
44:53by bacteria
44:55the UP state control board has denied that
44:57you know there are
44:59of course environmental issues
45:01and you have spoken in the past also about
45:03the need to preserve the environment
45:05there are issues surely
45:07when so many people congregate
45:09whether the water is as clean as
45:11the government sometimes claims it to be
45:13no
45:15I agree there are issues
45:17and so many people are come
45:19you think it can all happen without some
45:21issues definitely there will be issues
45:23but what I am saying is the water
45:25the quality of the water
45:27the nature of water
45:29which the scientists have said
45:31is something very amazing
45:33and it authenticates
45:35what our belief have been there
45:37for millennia
45:39that's what I want to say
45:41ok
45:43in conclusion
45:45I want to ask you, you said
45:47Mahakumar celebrates the diversity
45:49in a way of our culture
45:51of Hinduism
45:53today is Mahashivratri
45:55how do you celebrate Mahashivratri
45:57Gurudev Sri Sri Ravi Shankar
45:59what does it mean for you
46:01I know you have also
46:03brought to life
46:05a Shivling
46:07in Dwarka I believe
46:09so what does
46:11this festival mean for you
46:13how do you believe it celebrates
46:15the diversity of Hinduism
46:17see Mahashivratri
46:19is the time when
46:21everyone meditates
46:23everyone sings and pray
46:25for the well being
46:27of all beings
46:29wellness of all beings
46:31and this Shivratri is very
46:33special for me because this is
46:35the time when the Somnath
46:37Jyotirling has
46:39come to us here in the ashram
46:41you know
46:43thousand years back
46:45Mohammed Ghazni had broken the Shivling
46:47and the pieces of those stone
46:49were taken by some
46:51you know
46:53Agni Hotris
46:55from Tanjavur district of Tamil Nadu
46:57and they were keeping in their
46:59homes and they made it into
47:01Shivling like this
47:03you know
47:05because they couldn't see the stone
47:07you know
47:09a broken stone
47:11they gave a shape of Shivling
47:13and they were having it
47:15hundred years
47:17ago
47:19in 1924
47:21they met with Kanchi Paramacharya
47:23you know
47:25Chandrasekhar Saraswati ji
47:27he told them
47:29don't bring it out now
47:31for another hundred years
47:33and keep it
47:35for hundred years with you
47:37afterwards you know when Ram temple
47:39will happen after that
47:41you can bring it out
47:43and the Shankaracharya also said
47:45give it to a person in
47:47Bangalore by my
47:49name, he took my
47:51name and said you go and give it
47:53to him and that's how
47:55it has come to me
47:57and then there is a
47:59report from the Gemology
48:01Institute, the scientific
48:03study about this material
48:05and it is
48:07so amazing Rajdeep
48:09to see that
48:11this has
48:13140 Gauss of
48:15magnetic force in it
48:17and the
48:19geologist said I have never seen something
48:21like this
48:23and it has only 2% of
48:25iron and
48:2778% of barium
48:29and it behaves
48:31you know like a magnet, let me
48:33show you, usually
48:35the magnet
48:37is powerful in the end
48:39but you will see
48:41it is powerful in the middle
48:43the magnet is in the middle, there is no
48:45poles here
48:49so that
48:51Rishi Ravi Shankar
48:53in a way
48:55it's a very special day therefore I know
48:57for you, for your ashram
48:59can you see
49:01I wish you
49:03yes I can
49:05yes I can and I wish you and all
49:07your followers therefore
49:09a very happy Mahashivratri
49:11and indeed all the people
49:13of this country. Thank you so much
49:15Gurudev Rishi Ravi Shankar
49:17for sharing your thoughts here today
49:19on India Today
49:21Thank you