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00:00Germany's parliament is to vote on whether to ban the far-right AFD.
00:06The decision to stage a debate and a vote on this comes just weeks before snap elections
00:13in the country on February the 23rd, the AFD polling second.
00:19Meanwhile, Angela Merkel has blasted her own CDU for breaking the firewall against the
00:25AFD.
00:26First time ever at the national parliament that the conservatives have allied themselves
00:31with the far-right.
00:32This was on a non-binding anti-immigrant resolution on Wednesday.
00:38For more, let's cross to correspondent Nick Holdsworth in Berlin.
00:42Nick, first off, this vote on whether or not to ban the Alternative for Germany party.
00:50Give us the latest.
00:52Well, I mean, this is a reaction to last night's debate, a non-binding resolution for a sharp
01:01crackdown on immigration called by the head of the CDU and the front runner to be the
01:10new chancellor, Friedrich Merz.
01:13That non-binding resolution last night passed with the support of the AFD.
01:17Now, this comes after Mr Merz had said just last November that he would never seek the
01:22support of the AFD in any parliamentary proceedings.
01:26And today's criticism by his predecessor in the CDU and the former chancellor, Angela
01:31Merkel, criticising Mr Merz for taking on board support from the AFD.
01:37And the AFD have been making political capital about this, saying that it's the dawn of a
01:41new era and that this proves that they are right on immigration.
01:47So it's a very febrile atmosphere and this call for a vote to ban the AFD is a reaction
01:53to that vote last night and to the possibility that if there's another vote coming up on
02:02Friday on a reduction in immigrants' rights, beefing up a police on the borders that would
02:10be a binding vote, would be a new law.
02:15If that were to pass with the support of the AFD, then you're entering entirely new territory.
02:21And in Germany, they're very nervous about breaking what they call the so-called firewall
02:26against the AFD.
02:28They've looked over their shoulders at Austria, where the president there has had to ask the
02:32leader of the right wing Freedom Party to negotiate with centrists to form a new government
02:38after the centrists were unable to agree one themselves.
02:41And this motion to ban the AFD is likely to be extremely controversial and won't sit well
02:48with those 20% of people who in the polls say that they're going to vote for the AFD
02:53at those snap general elections coming up just a few weeks away now on February 23rd.
02:59So what are the chances of this resolution passing at this point?
03:09It's difficult to say.
03:10It would be a very controversial vote if it were passed and it would probably be legally
03:16challenged by the AFD.
03:18It's very hard to say in the current atmosphere.
03:20I mean, this is very unusual for German politics to have this kind of febrile atmosphere, which
03:26is in the context of these recent attacks by immigrants on Germans just last week, a
03:32toddler of two and an adult man knifed to death by a mentally ill Afghan asylum seeker
03:39who'd had his application for asylum refused.
03:42And of course, just in December, just before Christmas, that horrific attack on the market
03:47in Magdeburg, where a man, a Saudi national, drove a car into a crowd of people at a Christmas
03:52market, killing six and injuring over 200.
03:55So it's completely unprecedented, both seeking the support of the AFD and now seeking to
04:00ban the AFD.
04:04Difficult to say how it may all turn out.
04:06Yeah.
04:07And Nick, Nick Holdsworth, what reactions are there where you are to Angela Merkel breaking
04:12her silence, if you will, since she's left office?
04:16The former chancellor has stayed out of politics.
04:20Well, absolutely.
04:23She's been pretty careful about that.
04:25I think that most Germans that I've talked to about this, they seem to think that the
04:33circumstances require that.
04:35Now, it may only have been a small section of the population.
04:39Some may disagree with that.
04:41But I think that her intervention is a signal of just how dangerous perhaps German politics
04:49are becoming right now, that she feels that she should come out and make this public,
04:56criticizing her successor at the CDU.
04:59They didn't get on well when they were both in government together.
05:03We seem to have lost the connection with Nick Holdsworth in Berlin there.
05:09Frederick Mertz and Angela Merkel not getting along well when they were together in government,
05:16he was telling us there.
05:17Well, for more on this, let's turn to a German in Paris.
05:19Armin Steinbach is a professor of law and economics at the French School of Higher Learning,
05:26ACHE-EUX-SÉE.
05:27Thank you for being with us here on France 24.
05:31Did you hear that?
05:32It's French politics where there's supposed to be a lot of drama, not German politics.
05:35Why is this?
05:37Why is there so much drama right now?
05:39And this campaign's been quite acrimonious.
05:42We're not used to this.
05:44We are not used to this.
05:45In Germany, that's true.
05:46Indeed, it is a historical moment in German politics.
05:50The events unfolding since yesterday are unprecedented.
05:53It's the first time in post-war history that a parliamentary majority could be achieved
06:00only with the support of the right-wing party.
06:02So this is only possible due to the anti-migration sentiment in the German population, a wave
06:10on which the AfD is riding, riding successfully.
06:13And this anti-migration sentiment is driven by the attacks that have occurred over the
06:18last couple of months.
06:19And Angela Merkel wading into this, is it that she is above the fray and outraged by
06:29this breaking of what we call in France the Republican firewall around extremist parties?
06:36Or is she settling scores with her rival from within the SEDU, Friedrich Merz?
06:42Probably a bit of both.
06:44What we can be certain is that yesterday's events are the definite breakup with the era
06:50of Angela Merkel.
06:52Angela Merkel pursued a conservative policy that tried to integrate left and wing.
06:57And Friedrich Merz is now swinging ultimately to the right-wing side.
07:02And I think that is an occasion for her that she saw in order to intervene.
07:08Is Friedrich Merz the only one chasing after this anti-immigrant sentiment?
07:15After all, we heard Olaf Scholz earlier this week talk up the idea of sending Afghans and
07:21Syrians back.
07:23Certainly, this is a challenge for all mainstream parties.
07:27What we have seen over the last year is an increased and heightening of the security
07:32measures through laws that Olaf Scholz and his ruling party have been adopted.
07:37So it's really now a contest between the parties who proposes the most strictest and
07:43most restrictive measures on migration.
07:46Now, seeing what's happened here in France, where we've had more and more law and order
07:52tough talk, the new justice minister wants to build a prison just for drug dealers.
08:01There's all kinds of schemes that are being put out, not just by the British, but by the
08:04French and others, to send migrants back.
08:08How do you address the growing anti-immigrant sentiment when you're on the campaign trail?
08:12Well, there is no recipe that is easy to follow.
08:17We have seen indeed all over Europe that centrist parties are trying to take measures by swinging
08:24to the right.
08:25But at the end, if you look at Italy, if you look at Austria or the Netherlands, this has
08:29always been ultimately detrimental to the centrist parties.
08:33So what the way out out of this dilemma in Germany would be that the mainstream parties,
08:39the democratic parties, try to agree on a set of measures that they would pursue together.
08:47Even though we have to be aware that the election, the snap election is coming up.
08:51So there is no space to agree.
08:54It's a moment of disagreement in order to delineate parties from each other for the
08:59election.
09:00How do you get the sense, Armin, that politics from one country kind of bleed into another?
09:06Right now we're all watching what's going on in the US with the last 24 hours, the president
09:11there talking about using Guantanamo to park migrants.
09:17And is that something that's weighing on German politics?
09:21It's definitely weighing on German politics.
09:23And if you look closely, Friedrich Merz is copying Donald Trump.
09:27Friedrich Merz has announced last week that on his first day as a new chancellor, he would
09:33give the order to close the borders and to reject migrants at the border.
09:37This is one to one what Donald Trump has been pursuing.
09:41So this is really the moment for the populace.
09:45Is another German, Ursula von der Leyen, also copying Donald Trump?
09:49I ask the question because on Wednesday she unveiled the European Commission's plan for
09:55the next five years.
09:57And we can take a listen to what she said about how to increase competitiveness.
10:04The administrative procedures are too cumbersome.
10:07We have to cut red tape.
10:11We will deliver an unprecedented simplification effort.
10:16Cutting red tape.
10:18Isn't that what Donald Trump and Elon Musk proclaimed they're going to do with their
10:22Department of Government Efficiency?
10:25Is she also pandering to another of the AFD's big themes, which is the backlash against
10:34green policies?
10:36That is certainly true.
10:37The new European Commission puts competitiveness on number one and the Green Deal has moved
10:43back on number two or three.
10:45However, deregulation is not necessarily a wide wing topic.
10:49Right.
10:50But what we do see and which is critical also in this competitiveness compact that von der
10:55Leyen has released yesterday is that there are protectionist elements.
10:59For example, in procurement, the European Commission will now prefer European products,
11:04buying European.
11:06So this is also something that is a transfer from the U.S.
11:10Von der Leyen claims that by reducing red tape, it's also going to help the green agenda.
11:18Well, this is, of course, debatable.
11:22It is certainly true that it could stimulate growth.
11:24And if you believe that by stimulating the economy and the business sector, allowing
11:29them to invest into new manufacturing sites that would then adopt non-fossil processes,
11:37it could become true.
11:38However, deregulation as such is it's not a green agenda.
11:42How big in Germany on the campaign trail is this backlash against the energy transition?
11:51It is big.
11:52The Green Party is struggling with putting this topic on the political agenda.
11:58We've seen in the last four years a couple of laws that have been adopted by the lawmaker
12:04that brought people up against the Green Deal.
12:08And the populist, the AfD, is the party number one that questions climate change, actually.
12:13And are we going to see more entrenched positions on this?
12:17Or you're the country of compromise and consensus.
12:21Can there be a middle ground on this topic?
12:23In Germany, historically, there has always been a middle ground.
12:26Germany has indeed this culture of compromise, the culture of coalition building.
12:30However, at this moment, I'm more skeptical, especially after the events of yesterday.
12:35Friedrich Merz, if he's elected, he will need to find a coalition partner.
12:39This is going to be much more difficult after what happened yesterday.
12:42So there could be a hung parliament?
12:44There could be a hung parliament, at least for some time.
12:47Something that Germany cannot afford at all.
12:50Germany's economy is doing bad.
12:52There's no growth, no economic growth in Germany.
12:55Economic policy reforms would be necessary.
12:57So the risk is high that there could be a hung parliament.
13:01At the end of the day, when it's touch and go like this in Germany, it always ends with
13:06a grand coalition, doesn't it, where the center left and the center right agree?
13:11That's true.
13:12However, you cannot call it anymore a grand coalition, because the Social Democrats, they
13:16have been declining on only 15 percent of voters the right wing and the left wing parties
13:21have gained.
13:22So grand coalition is a term of the past.
13:24But you are right.
13:25In the past, it was the Christian conservatives and the Social Democrats who finally came
13:30to build middle ground around the controversial topics.
13:33One final question for you, Armin Steinbeck, Elon Musk, when he weighs in so heavily on
13:40German politics, co-hosting a talk on X, formerly Twitter, with the co-leader of the AfD, Alice
13:49Wiedel, for instance, does that help or hurt the far right?
13:53And does that help or hurt the front runner, Friedrich Merz?
13:57Well, it certainly helps the far right.
13:59They now have somebody who's officially supporting them, an American who is very influential
14:05on American politics, helping the AfD.
14:08Obviously, it is perceived as an interference by other German parties, the richest person
14:15of the world trying to influence German politics.
14:18It's a very sensitive issue from the mainstream party's perspective.
14:23Armin Steinbeck of the French business school HEC, thank you so much for being with us here
14:27on France 24.
14:28It was my pleasure.