Only days before his inauguration, Donald Trump announced major political plans, including the possibility of taking Greenland by military force or taking over Canada. DW's Washington Bureau Chief Ines Pohl spoke with former US General Ben Hodges about the likelihood of these threats becoming a reality.
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00:00Donald Trump is not even back in the White House yet, and he's already talking about
00:04annexing Canada, buying Greenland and snatching back the Panama Canal.
00:10Let's hear what Ben Hatch's retired four-star general has to say about these plans.
00:17Ben, welcome back to DW News.
00:19Thank you for the privilege.
00:20A lot to talk about, of course.
00:22Let's start with Greenland.
00:24Donald Trump isn't actually the first president who is kind of interested in this country,
00:30but how seriously should we take his approach to kind of even maybe use military force?
00:35Well, of course, it's alarming to many people that he would speak like that about, you know,
00:43not ruling out the use of force, especially when we're talking about the territory that
00:48belongs to a NATO ally, Denmark.
00:51I don't think anybody's arguing against the strategic importance of Greenland, both with
00:59climate change, accessibility for shipping in the region, and access to strategic minerals.
01:07But there's ways to do that, and I think the government in Greenland has made it clear
01:12they're open for business.
01:13They would welcome it.
01:15We already have a U.S. base there, but if it's so important, then grow what you have
01:19on the base.
01:21The secret sauce of NATO has always been cohesion.
01:25Even though all the countries in NATO, we argue with each other all the time on different
01:28things, the cohesion of the alliance was the most important part of the guarantee.
01:35This kind of language, I think, damages that cohesion.
01:38But should we take this even seriously, that he says that, that he might use military force?
01:44I think a good rule with President Trump is take everything seriously, but not always
01:52literally.
01:53Talk a little bit more about that.
01:55What do you mean by that?
01:56Well, if he said this, that means that he and his advisors and people that he listens
02:02to have thought about it.
02:03I mean, they've even, they will have had that conversation if we're talking about Greenland,
02:09for example.
02:10The fact that he sent his son and a couple of other people out there, they flew there,
02:14you know, is kind of, yeah, I'd say this is not, you know, something he had while taking
02:24a walk somewhere.
02:25I mean, there's more to it.
02:27So that's what I mean by take it seriously.
02:31But the idea of force, you know, I have to believe that this is Trump, the famous negotiator
02:39by his own self-description, starts out by saying, yeah, it's so important, I won't rule
02:44out using force if we have to.
02:46I think it's extremely unlikely we would get to that.
02:50But it seems more likely now than I would have dreamed even a month ago.
02:55And this will be a test, by the way, for the senior officer leadership in the U.S. military.
03:01I mean, I would want to see a legal review on this, you know, an unprovoked attack on
03:07a NATO ally.
03:09I would imagine and certainly hope that the Joint Chiefs of Staff, that the Joint Staff,
03:15that the Department of Defense, they would all be in this department, the state would
03:19be saying, wait a minute, this is a NATO ally.
03:22I mean, there are implications.
03:25And hopefully this would be in order if it ever did come down, that would never be obeyed.
03:29But that's, I think, one big fear around the world, you know, how reliable are these different
03:34levels in the future Trump administration?
03:37Well, we're going to see.
03:39I think today is the confirmation hearing for Mr. Hexeth, the Secretary of Defense nominee.
03:48And I think the Trump team have, they've made it clear that loyalty is an extremely important
03:54thing for them.
03:55So that's what I mean.
03:56It could be a test.
03:57Now, again, hopefully I'm wrong, and there's going to be a lot of really talented, mature,
04:03sensible people in the administration.
04:05They're not going to all be crazy.
04:09And so what I would expect and hope is that the serious people will help moderate or temper
04:16some of these things so that, you know, we protect America's interests, which means strong
04:22allies.
04:23Talking about Mr. Hexeth, the possible future defense minister, he said that he doesn't
04:28want women soldiers in combat.
04:31I mean, you're an experienced general.
04:34What would this mean for the force of the U.S. Army?
04:37Well, there's two or three problems with what he has said.
04:41First of all, there's a practical aspect to this, that there are not enough young men
04:45in America that are stepping forward to meet all the requirements.
04:48And fortunately, there are lots of women that have said, I'll serve, I'll do that.
04:53So we have a practical requirement for people.
05:00So if you start going back in time and saying, yes, we need women to do certain things, but
05:06you can't do this, this, and this, I think that damages recruiting.
05:12And it overall damages the force because my experience has been that women, first of all,
05:19they work like dogs because they always feel like they have something to prove.
05:22You have far less discipline problems with female soldiers.
05:27And frankly, there's only a tiny percentage of them actually want to be in the infantry,
05:32which is what Mr. Hegseth is really alluding to.
05:34No women in combat means women can't do the infantry tasks.
05:38Actually, the ones that pass all the standards, they can do it.
05:43But it's such a tiny number, but yet that becomes the focal point.
05:48And in modern warfare, this is not like the First World War where only the people on the
05:52front lines were involved in the fighting.
05:55Could end up being in a convoy that's attacked or where you have to pull somebody out of
05:59a burning vehicle.
06:00I mean, that's an anachronistic way to look at things that no women at the front line
06:07because there is no front line anymore.
06:10And I tell you what, it's really a disservice to the thousands of women who have served
06:15with valor and distinction in combat, in Iraq, in Afghanistan, at sea, in the air, doing
06:22all these different things.
06:23So look, that's catering to a particular audience.
06:30And in the long run, it would only damage the readiness of the US military.
06:35Now, if anybody is lowering standards in order to get more women in, then shame on us.
06:41That's unacceptable.
06:42And I think most women would prefer to know that they had to meet the standard.
06:46I would like to circle back to Donald Trump's announcement one more time.
06:50He also was talking about Canada, of course, and the Panama Channel.
06:55Is this also just like talk and no action?
06:58Or how should the world deal with these announcements?
07:01I don't understand why he does this unless there is some sort of great power, you know,
07:1119th century or 18th century view of the world that, you know, here on the map on my wall,
07:17when you look at North America, Canada, Greenland, and Panama here, is that this should be our
07:25sphere.
07:26Well, of course, that would be music to the ears of people in the Kremlin.
07:29And in Beijing, if the American government now likes the idea of this is all ours, you
07:38can have your bit.
07:40And obviously, that's a short-sighted approach, too, because of how we depend on—you can't
07:47survive with just your own little piece of the world.
07:53Now, there are—but despite the craziness of the announcements, if you get past that,
07:59there is merit in some of what he has said.
08:02Canada has enormous resources.
08:06It's a wealthy country.
08:09But yet it does precious little in terms of defense.
08:14I mean, I was just in Canada a few weeks ago.
08:17They are complaining up there that, you know, the government has not invested in defense.
08:23And so, you know, there are Americans, and not just Mr. Trump, that say Canada has benefited
08:29from the U.S. Air Force, the U.S. Navy, and having the U.S. as a neighbor, even though
08:35Canada has a critical Atlantic coast, a critical Pacific coast, and obviously being one of
08:42the two largest Arctic countries in the world.
08:47So, the idea of making it the 51st state, I mean, this sounds kind of like classic Trump
08:58bluster, but I think it's extremely unhelpful.
09:01Why would you pick a fight with a neighbor that's like one of your biggest training partners
09:06and has been a very good ally, even if they don't invest enough?
09:11I mean, I don't get that.
09:13Panama, there's an absence of facts in the description of what's going on.
09:20Yes, there are Chinese companies involved in operating ports around the world,
09:26and that's something that should be watched very closely.
09:28It should be prevented as much as possible, because I do, I have always worried about that.
09:33But if you go to the port of Hamburg, of course, you know, you've got Costco operates
09:38much of the port of Hamburg.
09:40Right.
09:41That's a concern.
09:43But, you know, to justify, you know, this is ours, we built it, so we're going to take it back.
09:50I think this is unnecessary and extremely unhelpful.
09:55Ben, we have been talking so often about Ukraine and what a possible Donald Trump return might
10:01mean for the country.
10:02Now, we are just like days ahead of January 20th when Donald Trump is signed in as the
10:07next president.
10:09He said that he will end the war on day one.
10:12What do we have to expect on January 20th and the days after?
10:17Well, I watch what General Kellogg says, you know, General Kellogg is his envoy to this.
10:22And General Kellogg just the other day said this.
10:24You need to go and assume at least 100 days.
10:27And I think even 100 days is unlikely.
10:30But two things that General Kellogg has said that encouraged me were, number one, you cannot
10:39trust Russia.
10:40That's a good start point for any negotiations with the Kremlin is you can't trust them.
10:45So that means there will have to be very strong, compelling compliance protocols in place to
10:51make sure that Russia lives up to what it says it will do, because it never did that
10:55after Minsk one or Minsk two or any other time.
10:58The other thing he said, which I liked hearing was that the sovereignty of Ukraine was extremely
11:03important.
11:04So that means, of course, Crimea.
11:06So a recognition by the Trump administration that sovereignty of Ukraine is important.
11:13I like that.
11:15The part I didn't like was when he said that, you know, maybe, you know, 20 years from now,
11:19Ukraine can join NATO.
11:21Why would you go into negotiations starting off already giving that up?
11:26I think that was not a good negotiating tactic.
11:29And it's also a terrible policy idea.
11:34The big difference now is I think Trump and his team are realizing that Putin is much
11:41weaker now than he was even in a year ago.
11:44Not just the hundreds of thousands of casualties, their failure to get more of Ukraine than
11:50the 20 percent they have now.
11:53The defense industry of Russia is in the toilet.
11:57The economy is in bad shape.
12:00So Putin is a lot weaker.
12:01And then his dear friend Bashar al-Assad just collapsed and is living in an apartment somewhere
12:08in Moscow now.
12:09Russia did not even have the ability to save Assad while still fighting Ukraine.
12:14I think Trump's team sees this.
12:17And so maybe he's not so enamored with Vladimir Putin now like he was eight years ago.
12:22He has the leverage of not only Putin's weakness, but Mr. Trump is inheriting an economy that
12:29is very strong.
12:30He's at the peak of his political power in the U.S.
12:33And he's got a lot of countries that are ready to follow U.S.
12:37leadership if he leads in a positive way, helping Ukraine.
12:43There's three things that the Biden administration did way, way, way too late.
12:48But nonetheless, they did it.
12:50That includes $2 billion worth of aid that still have not been delivered yet.
12:55Trump can let that keep going without saying anything.
12:58He can leave in place the lifting of restrictions on Ukraine's use of ATACOMs, let that stay
13:06in place.
13:07And then the sanctions on Russian oil industry and the Shadow Fleet vessels, leave that in
13:12place.
13:13I mean, he starts off in a very powerful position.
13:17But on the other hand, he's under a lot of pressure from his MAGA people, you know, to
13:21prove that he ends this war on day one or whatever it takes, takes place.
13:27I don't think that matters one bit.
13:30I mean, he's even already said, it's going to take a lot of respect.
13:33And just like he's also said, you know, it's really hard to drop prices, to lower food
13:38prices.
13:39And I think that they are going to not worry a lot about that.
13:46They have a very, very challenging legislative schedule ahead.
13:51Because, you know, when the sun goes down on January the 20th, he will already be a
13:55lame duck president.
13:56And in the midterm elections, the election cycle starts in just a few months.
14:02And so with a very, very narrow majority that the Republicans have in the House of Representatives,
14:08he's going to have to work hard to get the domestic agenda things done that he really
14:15wants to do.
14:17I just think, you know, what was said on the campaign trail is not as relevant, at least
14:24when we're talking about Ukraine anymore.
14:29I hope he uses this leverage to take advantage of the situation for the interests of the
14:36United States and of Europe by helping Ukraine defeat Russia, because that will send such
14:42a powerful message to the world.
14:44Russia, because that will send such a powerful signal to the Chinese that we're serious,
14:50that we have political will and industrial capacity.
14:54And, you know, he could be the big winner here.
14:57But I think, I really do think, I could be wrong, but I really do think that they're
15:02doing a reassessment of Russia and that Putin is not the genius, the savvy guy, the winner
15:09that maybe Trump thought he was four years ago.
15:11We just got like kind of a little bit of a glimpse what Trump is going to do again,
15:15like announcing all these things within minutes, every night, every morning in his new presidency.
15:22How should the West react to all these things he's going to say?
15:25I like what I said earlier that, and it was in a piece by Lawrence Freeman that I read
15:33today, where he says that most European countries are saying, OK, we're going to take him seriously,
15:39but not literally.
15:40And don't overreact.
15:42You know, be practical, pragmatic, because at the end of the day, you know, America's
15:48business interests, economic interests depend on stability and security around the world
15:53and access.
15:55We get that from Europe.
15:56I mean, as well as having our biggest trading partner being the continent of Europe.
16:02So I think, you know, Germany, for example, Germans are already, the government was already
16:12leaning into the possibility that Trump might be elected and therefore, OK, well, let's
16:22be practical about things.
16:23You don't want to wake up on November the, you don't want to wake up on January the 20th
16:28without, with an empty phone book, right?
16:30So, and I think also people are realizing that they can do a lot talking to the states,
16:37that the, you know, the big companies that are in South Carolina, for example, BMW.
16:48So the governor of South Carolina, who's a Republican, a MAGA guy, has a real interest
16:53in making sure that BMW stays prosperous and employs thousands of South Carolinians.
17:01So I think German companies and the German government working with the different states
17:06will be a practical approach, particularly if there's a Trump policy that they don't like.
17:12Ben, thank you so much.
17:14And I'm sure we talk soon again.
17:16I hope so.
17:16Great to see you again, Ines.