TikTok plans to shut US operations of its social media app used by 170 million Americans on Sunday, when a federal ban is set to take effect, barring a last-minute reprieve, people familiar with the matter said on Wednesday. FRANCE 24's Sharon Gaffney speaks to Nadine Strossen, New York Law School Professor Emerita and Senior Fellow at the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression. She says it is "nonsensical" for the US to single out one single social media app.
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NewsTranscript
00:00This is Apropos. We'll put measures in place to keep TikTok from going dark if there's
00:08a viable deal, so says Donald Trump's incoming National Security Advisor. Barring a last-minute
00:14reprieve, the app's Chinese owner ByteDance is set to shut off the application to its
00:20American users by Sunday. The row has prompted hundreds of thousands to migrate to another
00:27Chinese social media app, RedNote. Eliezer Godeva has the story.
00:34With a ban on TikTok looming in the United States, its users have been migrating to another
00:40Chinese platform in droves.
00:42I found the RedNote and it is...
00:46This is the app RedNote, and in only two days, more than 700,000 new users joined the platform,
00:53many of them with the hashtag TikTokRefugees.
00:57I'm one of the TikTokRefugees and I'm used to this. I just want to thank you for welcoming
01:01us to this app. If we do anything wrong, just let us know. Looks like that ban has got into
01:06effect and I'm probably going to lose my three cents per video, but you know what? That's
01:10okay. I like you guys. You guys are awesome. So, thanks.
01:15TikTok is currently used by about 170 million Americans. Many of them make a living out
01:22of posting their content despite concern flagged by the U.S. government over data privacy.
01:28Flocking to another Chinese platform might seem ironic, but people like Gwena see it
01:33as a form of rebellion.
01:35The government said, we're taking away TikTok because the Chinese government having our
01:39data is a threat. To which hundreds of thousands of millennial Gen Z and Gen X Americans went
01:47and we, myself included, downloaded an even more Chinese app and went, here's our data.
01:57But much like TikTok, RedNote is subject to Chinese data laws, granting authorities access
02:02to user information. Discussing politics could also be an issue on the app.
02:08To discuss, we're joined now by Nadine Strossen, New York Law School Professor Emerita. She's
02:15also previously served as President of the American Civil Liberties Union. Thank you
02:19so much for being with us this evening, Nadine.
02:22Thank you for having me.
02:23Thank you so much for your time. What exactly is set to happen to TikTok on Sunday? The
02:28legislation itself, it doesn't forbid use of the app. So, how exactly is this ban going
02:34to work if it does come into force?
02:35Well, presumably the app is going to disappear because that was the condition that it could
02:41only continue to operate if it divested itself. And as was agreed in the arguments before
02:48the Supreme Court, it is legally and technically impossible for a divestiture to occur. So,
02:55this is going to be a ban. And that's why TikTok users are fleeing to another website.
03:03And you've described this ban as an unprecedented violation of free speech rights. Why exactly
03:09are you so concerned?
03:12Very concerned because this is the first time in United States history that the government
03:19has banned an entire platform because of completely unsubstantiated national security and privacy
03:29concerns. Now, to be sure, there are national security and privacy risks associated with
03:36all online platforms. And for years, I and other digital rights advocates in the United
03:43States have been advocating for the kind of thoroughgoing privacy protections that do
03:49exist in Europe, but not in the United States. But it's completely nonsensical to single
03:55out one single app and not do anything to protect national security or privacy with
04:03respect to users' data in other apps, including other apps that have close links to the Chinese
04:10government. Almost half of the entire United States population is now using TikTok, not
04:18only for every form of self-expression, communication, receiving news, entertainment, art, but also
04:26for engaging in business. So, this is really a violation not only of the rights of TikTok,
04:33but also of the rights of a whole lot of Americans.
04:38And is there any evidence of a risk to national security then, and evidence either that it's
04:45influencing or manipulating users? Why exactly do you think American authorities are so concerned
04:51about this particular app?
04:54You know, there actually have been briefs that have been submitted arguing that perhaps
05:00there is nothing more to explain the singling out of this particular app, just the animosity
05:08and hostility between the United States and China. Some advocates have even argued that
05:15this smacks of national stereotypes. We have a sad history of exaggerating national security
05:24concerns when immigrants or foreigners or various minority groups are involved. And
05:32please, you know, it's really important to note that TikTok itself, as well as national
05:38security experts and digital rights advocates in the United States, have argued for alternative
05:45measures that would be more effective in protecting national security and privacy, including a
05:52national security agreement that TikTok was in the process of negotiating with the United
05:58States, which would have given more security and more privacy to TikTok than on Facebook,
06:06X, all manner of other online platforms that are still allowed to function in the United
06:14States.
06:15And you say as well that users really need to be educated about what's happening with
06:20their data and also when it comes to recognising misinformation and fake news.
06:27You know, we're never going to be able to block our way out of the dangers of disinformation,
06:33including propaganda from our own government and the Chinese government and others. The
06:39best defence is to educate users, media literacy, information literacy, to learn how to do fact
06:48checking, to learn how to look for reliable sources, not to believe everything that they
06:54see online.
06:56And we do have legislation in place here in Europe when it comes to data protection, GDPR.
07:02Why does that not exist in the United States?
07:05You know, it's such an interesting question. Many of us have been advocating for it for
07:09years and we were actually quite close to securing bipartisan legislation that would
07:16have been passed even in advance of the European legislation.
07:20But that was right before the 9-11 terrorist attacks in the year 2000 in the United States.
07:28And as has throughout our history been the unwarranted response to, in that case, a demonstrated
07:36threat and attack on national security, people are willing to give up privacy in the assumption
07:44that that will somehow lead to more security.
07:47And since then, the support for widespread privacy protection, unfortunately, has not returned.
07:55And we saw today Donald Trump's incoming national security adviser saying that the new
08:01administration is going to put measures in place to keep TikTok from going dark.
08:06Why is Donald Trump so keen to protect the app?
08:09We also see that the TikTok CEO is going to be at his inauguration on Monday.
08:15Far be it for me to psychoanalyze Donald Trump, who has been very volatile on this issue as
08:22well as other issues.
08:24In the past, he has called for banning TikTok.
08:28One has to assume that because of his personal relationship and perhaps business and other
08:35concerns, he's made a decision for now that it is a net benefit to allow TikTok to continue
08:43to function.
08:44But that is a very unstable basis, executive discretion.
08:48And I would say that if it were Joe Biden or any other individual, what we are talking
08:53about are fundamental First Amendment rights that should not be subject to the whims or
09:00policy decisions of any elected official, but should be protected for all Americans,
09:08regardless of how unpopular or generally feared the platform might be by government officials.
09:15And as we've been seeing people, they might be leaving TikTok, but they're just migrating
09:19to other apps, including some of those, the hundreds of thousands who are moving to another
09:24Chinese owned app, Red Note.
09:26The same problems there too, presumably, we're likely to see.
09:29Exactly.
09:30And national security experts have pointed out that there are all kinds of workarounds,
09:36including using, using offshore accounts and using virtual networks.
09:43I'm sorry, I'm forgetting what the technical term is.
09:45I'm not technically sophisticated, but technological experts have said that it would be so easy
09:51for especially the millennials and the Gen Z's and the Gen X, who are very technologically
09:57adept to find ways of, other ways of pursuing information and for that matter, exposing
10:05themselves to misinformation.
10:08Some of them also doing it as a protest vote, as we saw in that report.
10:12Nadine, thank you so much for joining us this evening.
10:15That's Nadine Strossen, New York Law School Professor Emerita and previous president of
10:19the American Civil Liberties Union.
10:21Thank you so much for your time.
10:23Thank you so much.
10:24Well, that is it from us for now.