Bobby Manning welcomes Michael Pina from The Ringer to discuss Ime Udoka and the Rockets emerging as one of the best teams in the NBA, his thoughts on the Celtics' start and where he sees Jimmy Butler going if the Heat trade him.
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00:00Can you say hard hats folks, hard hats, lunch pail, steel tool, boots?
00:10Anything short of a championship this year is a failure.
00:12Look at this boomer right here.
00:14You've just got so much talent here.
00:16Somebody said we need to apologize for Jaylen.
00:18Can I pull the John?
00:19What are we apologizing for?
00:20What did we say?
00:21What did we do?
00:22Hey, Bobby Manning here.
00:32Welcome to a Thursday edition of the GARN Report.
00:35We got Celtics, we got Bulls later tonight as the NBA schedule finally gets rolling again
00:40after this massive layoff here with the Cup.
00:43But a little bit to talk about, a little bit going on.
00:47We're welcoming Michael Pena from the Ringer.
00:50Wrote a great story about the Rockets, writes a lot of great stories over at the Ringer.
00:56And that's a team I've been wanting to catch up on, check in on.
00:59Michael, obviously the Celtics haven't been able to see them yet.
01:01They will actually early next month.
01:04But of course, Eme Udoka is over there doing his thing.
01:07They've been off to a great start this year.
01:10They were in this mid-season tournament NBA Cup thing and beat the Warriors for the first
01:15time in like 10 years.
01:17So I love what they're doing.
01:20I love what Udoka did in Boston.
01:23And it's pretty cool, as you described in the piece there, that they're doing a lot
01:26of the same things defensively that he was doing in Boston to be able to build what's
01:31been the second best defense in the league so far behind Oklahoma City.
01:35Yeah, I think Houston might be my favorite team to watch this season still.
01:42Love their defensive intensity.
01:45Love, as you said, the playing style on that side of the ball that Eme Udoka implemented
01:50in Boston, kind of taking that to Houston with him.
01:54And it's really fascinating how he had Robert Williams, who's one of the most athletic,
01:59win-healthy, big man, shot-blocking defensive presences in basketball as the roamer, which
02:06was kind of a little, not unprecedented, but a little revolutionary in how often that they
02:12used him like that, having him guard non-shooters as opposed to opposing big men.
02:19And to implement it with Alperen Shingun, who is not known as a plus defender at all,
02:26but having him not guard pick and rolls in a traditional sense has really helped him
02:34on the defensive end.
02:36And then just sprinkling in a ton of switches, obviously, with some of the best on-ball defenders
02:42in basketball, some of the smartest help defenders in basketball, a lot of athleticism, a lot
02:47of toughness, a lot of physicality.
02:50So I just love watching them.
02:53Obviously, offensively, it's a totally different story right now, and that's kind of the area
03:00that they really need to get better at if they ever want to contend with this core.
03:04But defensively, they're right there.
03:07And as you mentioned, their performance against the Golden State Warriors, I thought, was
03:11really standout.
03:12I don't know how many 24-second shot clock violations they forced, but it was a lot.
03:18And in the first half, they're just kind of manically forcing all these turnovers.
03:22So I love watching them play, and I think Ime Udoka has a case for Coach of the Year
03:26right now.
03:27Yeah, and I miss it a little bit.
03:29Obviously, the Celtics have been great to watch the last two years.
03:32They've changed their style, but have remained great defensively in their own way.
03:36But their style has been a little bit more analytical, like take away the threes, drop
03:41back to the basket, take that away, let other teams shoot mid-rangers, and we're just going
03:45to play the percentages a little bit there.
03:47And there's still some elements of that switching.
03:49There's still some stuff left behind from what Ime established that year.
03:54But it's been, you know, not to knock it down or discredit it or anything like that, but
03:59it is a little bit more of a passive style, whereas when Ime was running the defense here
04:04and you're seeing it in Houston, it's forceful.
04:06You're creating havoc.
04:08You're forcing turnovers.
04:09They were one of the highest or best teams at forcing turnovers that year in 2022.
04:15And you're seeing that now with Houston, it's just the aggressiveness of the switching,
04:19how physical it is.
04:20I know you know it in the piece that they're following a lot too out there.
04:23So it's a fun style to watch, especially if you love defensive basketball.
04:27But on the other hand, as you mentioned there, just like with that Boston team in 2022 that
04:33went through massive offensive lapses at times, even with probably better overall personnel
04:38on that end, this Houston team is going to have to figure it out somehow on that end
04:42if they want to be a legitimate contender here.
04:44And I think they're within striking distance of doing that.
04:47But you're going to need more than 25, 30 games to see if that will actually sustain
04:52itself.
04:53Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because obviously in Houston, Ime Oduka is a believer in numbers
05:00and math.
05:01And one of the big reasons why you want to switch as often as he does is you want to
05:05take away three point shots.
05:09And they're really good at that.
05:11Getting back in transition is not necessarily well, I think everything's analytics, to be
05:15honest, in a sense, but he wants to get back in transition also.
05:20And that's been and that's kind of been a tenet of Joe Mizzoula, his defensive philosophy.
05:28You want to be great in transition.
05:30You want to keep the floor balanced, which is one of the benefits, as we saw last season
05:34of how they play offense.
05:36You shoot a ton of threes, you're able to get back or there's a higher likelihood you'll
05:40be able to get back and set up in the half court.
05:44So there are definitely similarities there for sure.
05:48And I think like the personnel is also just so I mentioned the Chris Tapps Porzingis is
05:55obviously a much better shot blocker than Alperen Shangun is.
05:59But if you look at just the athleticism on the wings and the versatility, Jabari Smith
06:06versus Jalen Brown or Amin Thompson versus Drew Holliday, there's just a lot of similarities
06:12there, too, that I like to see.
06:14Yeah.
06:15So you got to talk to him for this piece, you know, obviously talk to him a lot here
06:20in Boston.
06:21The one thing I got and that I think, you know, you've gathered in Houston since he
06:24took over there is he wants to win.
06:27Like I think he at his core wants to accelerate this thing, you know, be able to go out there
06:34and contend for a championship as soon as possible.
06:36But just the reality of the situation a year ago with that young team, with what they were
06:40coming off of in the previous era with Silas and all those losing seasons and, you know,
06:47even the ownership's position of where they were at that point, like you're just going
06:51to take a year there, see, feel things out.
06:53They had a great season a year ago compared to the previous year.
06:57But this year you have this chance.
06:59And I know the messaging out of that team continues to be we want to see what it's going
07:03to be like this year with this team through a course of a full season into a playoff run
07:08and then make decisions from there.
07:11But when you get off to the start, when you maybe have this opportunity to catch lightning
07:16in a bottle and go on a big run here.
07:19How much do you feel like Imei does want to like, you know, bring in a veteran, make
07:23a move, consolidate this thing a little bit and actually make themselves a little bit
07:26more of a legitimate contender versus see what you have here, continue to invest and
07:31allow these young guys to grow, let Green and Shang-Goon become the centerpiece together?
07:36Because that's obviously what they did in Boston, right?
07:38They had those two cornerstones, they were patient with them.
07:41They built them up despite their flaws, and then it flourished eventually.
07:46Yeah, I kind of, I don't know if they're one player away.
07:51Actually, let me take that back, because I think if this team added Kevin Durant to it,
07:58that they could go to the finals, depending on who you give out in a hypothetical trade
08:03like that.
08:04If you added a Devin Booker-esque score, and these two are, you know, not coincidentally
08:09being named by me, because there's been reports and rumors and the fact that Houston
08:15traded for all of Phoenix's, or acquired Phoenix's future draft capital, leads one
08:19to believe that they are targeting these players at some point down the line.
08:24I don't think that's necessarily realistic, but I just think the offense right now is
08:32not so far gone, because they have a clear offensive identity, you know, they crash the
08:36offensive glass really well, they create a ton of second chance opportunities, they're
08:40above league average in offensive rating, I believe, despite ranking 29th or 30th in
08:47effective field goal percentage, I don't have the numbers right in front of me, but like,
08:50they don't hit shots, that's like a thing that is not great for them, and they can't
08:54really space the floor all that well.
08:57So like, if you were to add, I mean, the best player who's available seemingly right now
09:02is Jimmy Butler.
09:04And I think that for all of Imei Odoka's desire to win right now, pending what you would have
09:10to give up to get Jimmy, and maybe that is no one in your young core, maybe you can get
09:15him for draft capital and, you know, Dylan Brooks and some other salary.
09:19I think that you'd consider that if you were Houston, I don't think Miami would do a trade
09:24like that, to be clear.
09:27But even if you add Jimmy Butler, I just don't know if you have enough offensively to win
09:35in four playoff series or three, even just three playoff series in the Western Conference,
09:40it's going to be really difficult to do so while maintaining your defensive identity.
09:46So there, maybe I'm being too pessimistic about the offense right now.
09:51And maybe you're more on track with what they can be.
09:57I just think like, offensively, it's like you have to score efficiently to defense is
10:03really important.
10:04But you also have to score efficiently in the playoffs to win in today's NBA.
10:11It's as simple as that.
10:12Yeah, especially in that conference, like if they were in the East, you could say, well,
10:17Boston's a whole different monster out there.
10:20But getting to the conference finals, getting to the highest level in that conference is
10:24an easier path, especially from the middle, if you're going to be a, you know, three,
10:29four or five seed there.
10:31And out West where you're going to be playing a conference finalist caliber opponent pretty
10:35much every round.
10:36So that's going to be the hardest part for them.
10:38And we'll see where they end up landing.
10:40Three's a pretty good place to be for now.
10:42But one bad week and you're down to seven, eight, nine, maybe even 10.
10:46So things are going to change a lot out there.
10:48I want to get to the Butler stuff real quick and I give a shout out to our sponsor here,
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11:46So Butler, I didn't know what to make of this report right away.
11:51I guess it's the heat, right?
11:52Saying, all right, let's hear what we can get from, let's see what's out there.
11:55Let's see who would even be interested in this.
11:58Because I don't think from Butler's perspective, and obviously he wants to get an extension
12:03here and figure out what he's going to be doing for the late stages of his career.
12:09But I don't think there's a ton of urgency on his end to get out of that situation in
12:13Miami.
12:14And I think that's been all the reporting here so far too.
12:16So obviously it's been a little contentious between him and the franchise there and back
12:20to the way last year ended.
12:24The availability thing is just something you're going to have to weigh on both ends at this
12:28point.
12:29If you're Miami, is he available enough to be able to build the kind of regular season
12:32setup you want going into the playoffs?
12:35If you're another team, is he going to be available enough to make it worth what you're
12:37going to give up in this situation?
12:39So I do think beyond how hard it is to make trades now, there's big hurdles there.
12:44And you mentioned one of the Houston ones, like who are you going to give up?
12:47What kind of assets do you have there?
12:49What makes Miami actually move here?
12:50Because the biggest thing here is Miami has never embraced, at least in recent history
12:54here, a rebuild slash reset, which is what this effectively would be here.
12:59You still have some pieces, probably prioritize bringing back something that can help you
13:03win a little bit right now.
13:05But I don't know.
13:07Is this something that could get done by the deadline, him leaving Miami?
13:13There's a lot of hurdles and you named a whole bunch of them.
13:17I just wonder who has the appetite for a 35-year-old who is, forget about all the CBA
13:33restrictions that really make this a difficult thing to pull off and limits the number of
13:40realistic candidates who could even trade for him, but who wants a, and I think Jimmy's
13:45really good still, but who wants a 35-year-old who is, he's played a ton of minutes, a lot
13:54of them with Tom Thibodeau as his head coach in Chicago and in Minnesota, and is injury
14:03prone or has missed a lot of time over the past couple of years.
14:10And most importantly is saying that he wants to opt out of his player option, his $52 million
14:19player option next season, wants to opt out of it and test free agency.
14:22So who wants to extend this guy or resign this guy or give stuff up to get him for what's
14:32essentially a half season rental?
14:35I mean, you need to, if you're going to do that, you need to believe that you are a contender
14:41or that he pushes you over the top.
14:43You need to be really confident in that.
14:47And I just don't know how many teams that are in that position also have stuff that
14:51Miami would want, or yeah, just like the mechanisms to get something done.
14:59It's really a lot of hurdles, as I said, it's really difficult.
15:05And a team like Houston, they could pass the smell test here.
15:11But I just think that what Raphael Stone is saying, their GM, in terms of patience, in
15:16terms of we have a core that we like, let's grow, let's see what they can do in a playoff
15:21atmosphere, which is, it mirrors what Sam Presti said last season about the Oklahoma
15:28City Thunderwear at the trade deadline.
15:30They make the Gordon Hayward trade.
15:32Gordon doesn't really give them anything on the court, but they open up enough cap
15:35space then in doing that transaction to go out and sign Isaiah Hartenstein.
15:40They make the Alex Caruso trade, and now they are the favorites.
15:43So if you're Houston, I think that that path is a little more agreeable to your long-term
15:51trajectory than we're going to give up a ton of, let's give up like Reed Shepard.
15:57I'm just throwing names out there, but let's give up someone who's really young and really
16:01good for Jimmy Butler.
16:03And then we lose him the first round, and it's like, OK, what do we do now?
16:06We just lost this guy in free agency.
16:09So I don't know.
16:10I think Jimmy wants to get paid, obviously.
16:12And that's kind of why his agent is reportedly going around and telling teams or trying to
16:19get this little bidding war, saying the Brooklyn Nets are interested, the Phoenix Suns are
16:23interested, Dallas Mavericks.
16:27So it's really complicated.
16:29I personally would be a little surprised if Jimmy did actually get traded.
16:35That said, I also look at the Miami Heat, and I'm like, where are you going?
16:43What is the end game here if you're Miami?
16:46I don't think that they're even close to contending for a championship.
16:49They don't have a ton of tradable assets.
16:52Their attractive pieces have taken a step backward.
16:56Jaime Jaquez has been low-key one of the more disappointing players in the entire NBA this
17:03season.
17:03I don't know what's going on with Bam this year.
17:05I mean, he had a brutal game in Boston a week or two ago.
17:10Yeah, Bam has really struggled this season.
17:12Real slow start to the year.
17:15He's been a little bit better recently.
17:17But even in that Pistons game that they just went to overtime in, he just doesn't touch
17:23the ball in overtime.
17:25At all, really.
17:28And you just see the limitations of him offensively, where if his mid-range jumper isn't
17:33going or his paint floaters aren't going, okay, how efficient can you possibly be?
17:38I know he's taking more threes, but he's not really making a ton of them.
17:42So big picture with them.
17:44I just don't know where they're going, what their direction is.
17:49And it's a really tricky spot for them to be in, despite, ironically, Tyler Hero having
17:55the best year by far of his career and finally looking like a potential all-star.
18:01But I just don't see it for them.
18:04And I don't really know where they go from here to get back to the level that they want
18:07to be at.
18:08Yeah, and I think that makes this decision easy for them, even if there's not a ton of
18:13options out there for them to move on.
18:15You're going to have that player option at the end of the year anyway.
18:17And him opting into that, I don't think is a great situation for them either, even if
18:22it does just kick everything down the can a year.
18:25I think they're going to have to do it here, I think.
18:27And the fact that it's not a full rebuild, you still have them, you still have here,
18:31you still have some pieces, you're still Miami.
18:34You can attract guys.
18:35I think that makes it a little bit easier for them to go forward with that.
18:40And obviously, there's nothing here highlighting that they could go anywhere.
18:45So I think from their perspective, you do it.
18:49Now, who on the other side makes sense here?
18:53Phoenix, I don't think there's anything there that makes any sense.
18:57I know Dallas is in there.
18:59I don't think that makes any sense.
19:02Houston, I will circle back to that.
19:04I want to talk about Golden State too right after.
19:05But it's tough because the Van Fleet contract I look at and I'm like, all right, that's
19:13like that one for one, make the money work.
19:17You throw in all those Phoenix picks you have and just call it a day.
19:21And maybe Miami likes having Van Fleet around to kind of just hold up space for a couple
19:26of years.
19:26But I don't think Miami would do that.
19:29And I don't know how excited the Rockets would be to just move right on from Van Fleet.
19:33I know he hasn't played great, but he's been a big culture guy and they just signed
19:37him and all that.
19:39But that to me is like, all right, can you put Butler into the center of this offense,
19:45have him run it, hope he can recapture some old magic and have him power you through the
19:50playoffs?
19:51That would be the move, I think, that would accelerate everything.
19:54If you're Houston, you only have to go into next year, whether it's the player option
19:59or he opts out.
20:00And then you have some cap space if you're them.
20:02But on the other side, Van Fleet signed two years, right?
20:05So I don't think Miami gets any cap space there.
20:08I don't think they're thrilled about bringing him back in that deal.
20:10I think there's a team option for next season for him.
20:14Okay.
20:14So that makes a little more sense then to me.
20:17That money works, I think.
20:18I think it's like 42 and 48 or something like that for those two guys.
20:24And then like, does Miami really need draft picks?
20:27No, but those could be pieces that they use to continue to shake things up going forward.
20:31That to me makes more sense than anything else that's out there or like a Warriors,
20:36Cominga, Wiggins picks thing.
20:39But Houston's going to have to want to do it.
20:41And obviously everything we've heard is that they want to be patient and they don't want
20:45to make a brass move like this.
20:47But if I'm them and the Heat would accept that, I would do it.
20:52Why not?
20:56I like Van Fleet.
21:00I like him there.
21:01I think, you know, you mentioned the cultural fit.
21:04I think that's spot on.
21:05I also think that he's like pretty important with how they defend.
21:11And I know that their offense is not spectacular.
21:14But his pick and role play with Shang-Goon is like kind of their staple.
21:19Like, it's really important.
21:22It's their bread and butter.
21:23He's a three-point shooter, unlike Butler.
21:26Yeah, yeah.
21:28And he's just like, he's a really smart, heady player and like removing a true, like, he's
21:34one of the last remaining, he's like last of a dying breed in a lot of ways in terms
21:39of just like steady hand floor generals.
21:42And I feel like that's just what this team specifically needs.
21:45I don't, I know Jimmy Butler can playmake for sure, but he's not that type of player
21:51as Fred.
21:52And I'm not saying that Fred's as good as Jimmy, but it's just when you look at the
21:56context and you look at also, we'd have to give up all these picks.
22:00And I think the picks for Houston are pretty valuable.
22:03Like, I want to keep all my draft capital if I'm Houston right now, because I want to
22:08maximize my team.
22:10Like, I want to pounce when Ahmed Thompson makes his jump and Tyree Easton makes his
22:15jump and Chengun makes another jump.
22:18That's when I, and Reed Shepard's in my rotation and he looks like Mark Price.
22:21Like, that's really when I want to use my draft capital if I'm Houston.
22:25And so that's why I think being patient could be the smart play here.
22:29Because again, I just don't think that even if they have Jimmy Butler, I don't think that
22:32they're beating the Thunder in a seven-game series necessarily.
22:37I don't know if they're going to...
22:39I mean, if you list the names of the teams, it's hard.
22:43It's really, really hard in the West.
22:46The Timberwolves could be really good then, and we don't know what they'll do with the
22:49trade deadline.
22:51The Suns have KD and...
22:54Dallas is still so dangerous.
22:56Dallas made the finals last year and they have Luka.
22:59Denver, everyone's down on Denver.
23:01Denver has the best player in the world.
23:03Like Jamal Murray, over the last couple of times I've watched him, has looked like Jamal
23:08Murray.
23:09So yeah, it's just, it's really tough.
23:13If I were them, I would really enjoy where I'm at right now as an organization and know
23:17that my future is really, really bright.
23:24How about the Warriors?
23:25They want to put someone next to staff.
23:27Kamenga is a restricted free agent.
23:30I don't know if Miami would like him or want to build around a guy like that, but it's
23:33a young piece that you could keep at a...
23:37There's a whole restricted free agency thing is another conversation.
23:40That's obviously part of the consideration there.
23:42But you would think you'd be able to keep him at a decent price this offseason.
23:46Wiggins, maybe he keeps you competitive if he can give you some decent minutes there.
23:52Again, that's a contract.
23:53I don't know if you really want to take back if you're Miami.
23:55But Warriors have some stuff to offer along with picks.
23:59And the fit, I think there's a little more dubious.
24:03I don't like he needs the ball in his hands a lot.
24:06And does that take it away from Steph?
24:08Does that take it away from Draymond and their whole thing that they do there?
24:13I have some questions about the fit there.
24:15But if you're in this late stage of Curry's career, you had that magic to start this year
24:20and it's starting to fade a little bit.
24:22And you have this roster that's built around depth more than the top end talent.
24:27Could consolidating there bring them closer to being a finalist team again?
24:33I think this makes a lot more sense because I think that where they are as an organization,
24:38trying to maximize the end of Steph Curry's career should be your priority still.
24:43And there's a reason why they did not extend Jonathan Kaminga coming into this season.
24:53There's a lot of reasons why I can imagine.
24:55But one of them is they want to keep him as a trade piece.
24:58And dangling him, Wiggins, whatever.
25:03I think Schroeder can technically still be dealt and aggregated.
25:06I think his contract, I think that's a thing that they could do.
25:10And you have some other salaries here that you can move around.
25:13So they started really hot.
25:17They had a defensive identity.
25:19They were playing like 13 guys in their rotation.
25:22That has, as everyone predicted, not been a sustainable way to win basketball games.
25:29Talking about the extended rotation in today's league or basically ever.
25:35And so I do think a consolidation trade needs to happen.
25:39I think they need to be very aggressive.
25:42And again, it comes back to what will Miami take back and accept?
25:48And frankly, I'm not the biggest Kaminga fan, like personally.
25:56I think this is a little bit of a like, I'm going off the road here a little bit.
26:04But Kaminga reminds me in a lot of ways of like young Jalen Brown in terms of not only
26:10playing style, but like stubbornness and wanting to play a certain way.
26:16A certain way and like believing that this is who you can be in the league in terms of
26:22like, you know, I want to be DeMar DeRozan.
26:25Like I don't care where the league is headed.
26:27I want to have the ball in my hands and I want to take a ton of shots.
26:30A lot of them in the mid range.
26:31I want to isolate all that stuff.
26:35And I don't know.
26:37And I'm super athletic, all that sort of stuff.
26:39And I don't know if Kaminga like will ever get to be as good as Jalen Brown has become.
26:47And if he doesn't, that is like that could be a not disastrous, but not necessarily a
26:54winning player.
26:57So I think Kaminga, Wiggins, you know, pick swaps.
27:02I don't know how many picks that they have that they can trade right now.
27:05Golden State.
27:07I don't think it's too many, but yeah, like that's a that's a tough one.
27:14Um, if Miami was willing to accept that type of package and you could get something done
27:20that fell in line with the CBA, uh, I would do that if I was Golden State.
27:27And I, I don't care that much about the fit issues because once I get into the playoffs
27:31at the end of the day, I have Jimmy Butler on my team and I have Steph Curry on my team.
27:36Like, I don't care.
27:37Like, like, let's go.
27:39Let's, let's see what happens.
27:41That's like much better than my situation right now where it's like Steph and who, who
27:46is my second option here?
27:47Andrew Wiggins, buddy healed.
27:49Like, yeah, we're in trouble.
27:51So I, I'm totally fine with Jimmy Butler coming aboard.
27:55Um, almost regardless of the cost.
27:57If I'm the Golden State Warriors.
27:59Yeah.
27:59I think you're talking Wiggins, Schroeder, Kaminga, and then like one of those minimums
28:05to make the money work at the rate.
28:06Cause well, it does make a lot of money.
28:08He does.
28:09What would it look like there though?
28:11That's the hard thing for me to imagine right now.
28:13Like would Butler have the ball in his hands?
28:15Would he be doing some of that two man game stuff that we've seen with, you know, Draymond
28:19and Curry?
28:20Would he be playing off the ball a little more trying to figure out how to do that?
28:23Like, I don't, I can't picture it in my head.
28:26Like what a Butler green Curry team looks like.
28:28I mean, offensively Draymond and Bam Adebayo are not that dissimilar, um, in terms of has
28:38wants to have the ball, um, you know, pick and roll playmaker can push it in transition,
28:45make a play, uh, really good in the short roll.
28:49Obviously Draymond is not like a lob catching threat with who can space the floor vertically
28:54like Bam can.
28:56Um, but I think there's some similarities there.
28:58And then like, honestly, like Stefan, if Stefan Buddy Heald, who Buddy Heald has been like
29:04starting recently, um, that's like, that's the spacing right there.
29:10That's like, that's terrific.
29:12I mean, Steph still, his gravity is still second to none, um, flying off screens.
29:17Like people are still petrified of him and he creates so many wonderful opportunities
29:21for everybody.
29:22So like clear the floor and have like a Jimmy, uh, Steph two man game, empty corner, pick
29:28and roll, like good luck guarding that, um, regardless of who has the ball in their hands.
29:33Um, but I just think Jimmy's super smart, uh, and he plays the right way.
29:39He doesn't force things, but when it's time to do stuff, like give him the ball and he
29:47can isolate on just about anybody and either get to the free throw line or hit a big shot.
29:52Like, so I still have a lot of faith in Jimmy as a guy in the league and Steph is obviously
30:00still like playing like an MVP candidate.
30:03So yeah, I think that fit issues are a little overblown there.
30:07I think it would be pretty tough to stop.
30:10I'd be excited to see it.
30:12Um, do you want to talk some Celtics before you get out of here, but let's shout out the
30:17game time app and it is a game night in Boston.
30:19So you want to go see the bowls.
30:21You want to go see the Celtics back in action.
30:22They're going to be on the road for a little bit after this.
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30:28some early looks at those Christmas prices, go over there, download the app, create an
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30:34They have flash zone deals going on all the time.
30:37I'm sure there's some great Patriots prices too.
30:39If you want to go see them the last couple of weeks of the year, see Drake May, all that's
30:43available over at the game time app and more concerts, events, you can get panoramic views
30:47of your seats, which are huge for concerts.
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30:54I love that feature over there.
30:55And right now, if you use the code CLNS, you can get $20 off your first purchase over there.
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31:00Go check out the game time app today.
31:03So what do we talk about with the Celtics?
31:06I've been trying to figure this out all too many threes, right?
31:09Are they breaking the league?
31:11I don't want to do that thing.
31:12Yeah, but I'll ask you this.
31:15Are they unbeatable barring major injury or catastrophe?
31:19Are they unbeatable this year?
31:21That's a good question, and I think a fair one.
31:27I think their ceiling is higher than every other team's.
31:34And I don't want to say unbeatable because I have a lot of respect for several teams
31:41in the Western Conference.
31:44The Thunder look great.
31:46I think the Thunder's defense can be really disruptive.
31:49And some might argue, some might be correct that they would have the best player in that
31:54series with Shea.
31:57But at the same time, beating Boston four times if they are healthy and Al Horford looks
32:08like he did in last year's playoff run, and poor Zingas is healthy for the whole thing
32:13as he was not last season.
32:15I just have so much confidence in everybody on the team, and there's a reason why they
32:21are a little bit boring.
32:24When I watch them play, I'm looking for things that are different from last year.
32:29And I'm looking for, like, I mentioned Jalen before.
32:33And to me, what is really scary if you're another team in the league is, I'm noticing
32:41things in Jalen that I've never really seen before, and they're reflected in the numbers.
32:46I think two big areas for him in terms of improvement are the free throws and his playmaking.
32:54And I think his free throw rate is up like 10 percentage points from what it was last
33:01season.
33:01There have been, not to get too, like, statistically wonky with you, but there have been seven
33:07games this season where he's attempted at least 10 free throws in a game.
33:12And last year, all of last year, five games where he had at least 10 free throw attempts.
33:18And you could say a lot of that is because of poor Zingas' injury, for sure.
33:22But seven games, it's already a career high.
33:25Seven games with 10 free throw attempts for Jalen, already a career high.
33:28Averaging 6.2.
33:29Drawing fouls, I think he draws the 15th or 14th most fouls, period, per 100 possessions
33:36in the entire NBA, which is more, draws more fouls than Jason Tatum.
33:42When Jalen's on the court without Tatum, they're better than when Tatum's on the court without
33:46Jalen, which is a stark departure from, like, these two being teammates pretty much through
33:53their entire tenure.
33:54So I think that's a big part of, like, just Jalen, obviously, bigger, stronger.
34:00That's been a storyline.
34:01But I feel like he's more patient.
34:03He's more confident.
34:05And you're seeing that more fluid and really seeing the game in a way that, you know, going
34:12to the playmaking thing.
34:13He's like sixth in hockey assists this season or something, like, as many hockey assists
34:18as James Harden.
34:19So I think, like, he's making smart decisions with the ball in his hands.
34:24He obviously benefits from having all this space around him.
34:28But, you know, like, he leads the team in net rating.
34:33He leads the team in net points per game.
34:35He leads the team in net assists per game.
34:38He leads the team in net assists per game.
34:40And he's a really good player.
34:42He's a really good player.
34:43He's a really good player.
34:44He's a really good player.
34:45He leads the team in net rating.
34:47He leads the team in net point differential.
34:49Like, last year, they were much better with when Jalen was on the bench than not.
34:57And this year, they suffer when he's on the bench.
35:00Not suffer, because they're still great regardless, because they're such a great team.
35:04But so that's, like, one dude who I just always am looking for.
35:10Like, I'm looking for noticeable improvements from him.
35:13And I know that his true shooting is, like, below league average for the first time since
35:182019 or something like that.
35:21And I don't really care.
35:22Like, I don't care that Drew Holliday's shooting 33% for behind the three-point line.
35:26Like, I don't.
35:27Just nothing about, you know, like, the starting five.
35:30I know I'm rambling.
35:31I apologize, Bobby.
35:32But, like, the fact that the Chris Hapsburg is starting five.
35:36They played four games this year together, I think.
35:39And they have, like, a negative, maybe five games.
35:42And they have, like, a negative net rating.
35:43Like, I don't care.
35:44Like, the offense is bad.
35:45I don't care.
35:46Like, I just think that this team is, it's got answers for everything.
35:52And it's super deep.
35:53We haven't even mentioned Peyton Pritchard's name yet.
35:55He's going to win sixth man of the year in all likelihood.
35:58Jason Tatum's going to finish top three, top four for MVP.
36:03Yeah, like, they've done all of their 21-5.
36:06And they didn't have Chris Hapsburg's for most of the season.
36:10Really good team.
36:11Just, like, again, apologies for rambling.
36:15But, like, they're playing these lineups that have, you know,
36:19two bigs in them that are probably never going to play in a playoff series.
36:22And, you know, that skews the data also negatively.
36:28So, yeah, I guess, like, if, you know, if they're healthy,
36:31yeah, they might be unbeatable.
36:33Like, maybe I'll just change my answer on the fly.
36:36That's how I'm starting to feel.
36:37And, yeah, the West is a huge wrinkle.
36:39Because you have no clue who's going to come out of there.
36:41And they're probably unbeatable in the East.
36:43And this, you know, to keep the Jalen conversation going,
36:46I'll add the defense to it, too.
36:47And I know this started last year.
36:49Because his career was going in a weird direction defensively in 23,
36:54where he's making these, even back to 21.
36:57Like, I just remember all these different plays where he's making mistakes off the ball
37:00or just falling asleep.
37:01And you're like, what happened to this guy defensively?
37:03This is from Forsberg to start this year, Chris Forsberg.
37:07Just astounding numbers, him defending the other team's stars.
37:10And he's doing that most nights.
37:12The Bucks game, the last Bucks game, there was a great moment
37:14where he just picks up Louis at full court and knocks him off the ball.
37:18He's guarding a variety of different types of players here.
37:21And the numbers are just astounding.
37:24And they were ridiculously low, opponents overall,
37:27shooting against them to begin this year.
37:31He's become their energizer defensively, too.
37:34The guy who just powers them on the net.
37:36Because I think their defense weighs based on how much they want to play,
37:43how bored they are, those type of things.
37:45And he's just taken on that responsibility of,
37:49I'm going to go guard the best player.
37:52Sometimes I'll pick up full court.
37:54Pritchard's done that a little bit, too, there.
37:55So I want to give him a lot of credit for his defensive turnaround, too.
37:58Because it wasn't looking good for him on that end a couple of years ago.
38:02And I thought he set the tone in a lot of ways going into last year,
38:04saying we've got to become a defensive team again
38:07after that weird first year without Yime.
38:09So I'll give him credit for that, too.
38:12The West...
38:13Can I just say, Bobby?
38:15To your point, I feel like the officiating has changed in the NBA this season.
38:22And it started towards the end of last year.
38:24They're allowing a lot more physical play.
38:27You think he's taking advantage of that?
38:29Yeah, I do.
38:30I have that in my notes when I watch the Celtics play.
38:33There was one play against the Pistons recently where he anticipated
38:38Cade Cunningham and beat him to the spot.
38:40Cade went behind the back with his dribble.
38:43And Jalen anticipated, cut him off, stole the ball, and went the other way.
38:47And it was very physical.
38:51I think Cade fell over.
38:53It's just one of those plays where two years ago, that's a foul.
38:57They're blowing the whistle instantly.
38:58So I feel like his physicality, the things that they allow a lot of
39:04handsy on-ball defenders to get away with right now benefits the defense.
39:07And I think that's good, frankly, for watching the game.
39:10And it's really good for someone like Jalen Brown.
39:15You mentioned the Thunder.
39:16And it feels like that's going to be the finals.
39:19I'm going to give a lot more credit to the field in the West because I think it could
39:24Dallas-Oklahoma, I think, would be a very difficult series again for Oklahoma,
39:29just like it was last year.
39:30But Chet takes a step.
39:31I love Hartenstein there.
39:33I mean, he's just been a seamless fit into what they needed.
39:38And then they had the weird cut finish the other day, but who cares?
39:42I feel like that's going to be the finals.
39:44I do feel like that's the one team that could push them to the brink.
39:49And they just play the style.
39:50They're so fast.
39:52Memphis did it a little bit two weeks ago where they're spreading you out.
39:55There's these quick guards.
39:56They're driving by you.
39:57They're taking mid-range shots, all those different things comfortably.
40:02Cleveland, I think, is interesting in that aspect, too.
40:05But Oklahoma's got the size, too.
40:07You might have to play Horford and Porzingis a lot next to them if they're going to go
40:10Chet, Hartenstein.
40:12I'm almost just anticipating that being the finals.
40:14And I can't wait to start talking about it because I do think it's the first team
40:18in obviously a year plus here that could actually beat the Celtics.
40:21So a lot's going to have to go right in both conferences for that to end up happening here.
40:26But do you do think there's a scenario where Oklahoma, if they're healthy, if they make
40:33it out of the West, that they could beat the Celtics in a championship?
40:37Yeah, they definitely could.
40:40I wouldn't pick them to do so.
40:42But, you know, particularly if they have home court.
40:47And yeah, it's actually a close race.
40:50Yeah.
40:50And the Celtics somehow might not have home court in the East, which is still kind of
40:54crazy the way it's going.
40:56I don't want to disrespect Cleveland, so I should mention them.
41:00I think you just did.
41:01But just, you know, I want to see Cleveland in a playoff.
41:05Like, I want to see what Cleveland does in the first round to their opponent, because
41:10I like a lot of their players.
41:11I like how they play together.
41:15The regular season is just not the postseason.
41:17And a lot of the questions that we've had about this team, in terms of their spacing,
41:21in terms of their defensive versatility, could come to bear in the first round.
41:28Or just, like, in a setting like that.
41:29So I want to watch them.
41:32We also didn't mention the Knicks.
41:33And, you know, I don't think the Knicks are—I think the Knicks are really good.
41:40But I don't think that the Celtics are sweating them at all.
41:46But the thing about the Thunder, going back to that, is just we have not seen a minute
41:51of Chet and Hartenstein.
41:53You mentioned that dynamic duo, the big dudes down low.
41:59They haven't played together yet, because they've been hurt.
42:01So, like, their defense has been historically great.
42:05And we haven't seen what may be their most intimidating, physically imposing look that
42:13they have.
42:14So that's really scary to think about.
42:18They're really good.
42:19So, yeah, I would definitely give them a shot to beat the Celtics in a seven-game series,
42:24particularly if they emerge from the Western Conference.
42:27Like, I mean, I will say, though, like, your point about the field, I kind of agree.
42:35Like, I think, you know, the Minnesota Timberwolves are sneakily getting things right on the defensive
42:42end.
42:42I think they're top five right now.
42:45And they haven't really even clicked offensively through a significant stretch here.
42:51And so—
42:51And that's a 1-8 right now, huh?
42:54Yeah, which is—yeah, that's tough.
42:56Because, I mean, Anthony Edwards, I just think he's—he goes up a level in the postseason.
43:02And that is so—
43:03And imagine if it's Denver-Oklahoma.
43:05Like, I know they have Hartenstein now, and that helps.
43:08But that's still daunting.
43:10Yeah, no one wants to play Jokic.
43:14And if Jamal Murray is healthy, like, good luck, honestly.
43:19And you mentioned the Grizzlies.
43:20I picked the Grizzlies to win the West this season before the season started.
43:24And I like them a lot.
43:26And I think that, you know, their depth and the looks that they can give you and how they're
43:32playing offense with their new coaching staff has been—like, it's blitzed the whole league.
43:39So—
43:40That was as impressive as I've seen a team coach against Boston over the last two years
43:45here, what they did to Holiday in that game and the way they just schemed it up.
43:49And I know Boston was on the fifth game in seven nights, but that was as thrown off as
43:53I've seen the Celtics in two years.
43:56Yeah, that was a really fascinating game and a really fascinating call by Taylor Jenkins
44:01to do that defensively.
44:03How many points did Memphis score in that game, though?
44:04Like, 128, 130?
44:06Like, they, like, really—
44:10They put the ball—
44:11It was 127-121.
44:13Yeah, they put the ball in the basket in that game, too.
44:16I know everyone was talking about Drew Holiday missing, like, 16 three-pointers.
44:19But, like, Memphis's offense is—
44:22Jackson went crazy at the end of that game and just floated over everybody.
44:26He's really good.
44:27He's really good.
44:29He's really good.
44:30He's an all-star candidate for sure.
44:33But, yeah, I think the West is loaded and there's several teams that can come out of
44:39that that would not—that would not surprise me.
44:42And, you know, we mentioned a bunch of teams in the East, but I do think that—I think
44:47Boston's really good and they're almost boring to talk about because I feel like even the
44:56lulls that we see with them, it doesn't matter.
44:59Like, get us—just get them to the playoffs and beat that team in a seven-game series.
45:04Like, it's really, really hard given all the different ways that they can beat you.
45:09Yeah, meanwhile, the 1-8 in the East right now is Boston, Indiana.
45:15I guess that would be interesting based on how that went last year, but not quite the same.
45:21Last thing on the Celtics before I let you go.
45:24You asked what's different about them this year.
45:27I guess the big thing's Pritchard, right?
45:30Like, what happened there?
45:32And I've been a Pritchard guy since they drafted him.
45:35I liked what he did last year.
45:36He faded a little bit in the playoffs outside of those loud half-court heaves in the later
45:41stages there.
45:42But now he looks indispensable.
45:44And that actually is one of the things, you know, to go back to that Memphis game.
45:47They closed with Pritchard over Holiday.
45:49They did that against Indiana earlier in the year.
45:52I know you said a couple minutes ago that you're not concerned about Holiday's three-point
45:56shooting dip here.
45:58But as Pritchard starts to play 30 minutes every night because, you know, guys are in
46:02and out and there's rest and all that stuff, and he just seems to be more indispensable
46:07to what they're doing offensively, and you just won't miss.
46:10That is going to be an interesting rotation decision late in some of these games.
46:14Like, their only one last year was Porzingis-Horford, and Porzingis ended up missing most of the
46:18playoffs anyway.
46:20So they really didn't have to make that decision too much.
46:22But I do think there's going to be some Holiday or Pritchard closing lineup questions late
46:28in this season if it keeps going the way that it is right now.
46:32There could be, but that's like a really good problem to have, right?
46:35Yeah.
46:36Kind of speaks to your depth and all the different ways that you can overwhelm your opponent.
46:43But yeah, Pritchard's numbers are...
46:44I don't even want to get into them because they're so crazy and I could go on forever.
46:48But it is like...
46:51It's not out of nowhere, out of nowhere.
46:53I mean, before the season, I thought that he could win sixth man of the year.
46:57He had a crazy preseason too, yeah.
46:59Yeah, and you saw some of the stuff...
47:03I just remember watching in Abu Dhabi, him hitting a bunch of step-back threes against
47:08the Nuggets and me being like, okay, that's...
47:11I've seen him do that before, but they were taken with a lot of confidence.
47:15And he hit one the other night.
47:17I forget who it was against, but it was like, oh, that was the space, the ability to create
47:23space at this level while knowing that the opponent is like, okay, Peyton Pritchard's
47:29now on the scouting report.
47:30He's someone we have to worry about.
47:32Do not lose him in transition.
47:34Do not put two on the ball when he sets the screen.
47:39We can't even do that anymore because if he pops for three, we're dead in the water.
47:45So he's just...
47:47Yeah, I don't even know what to say about him.
47:49He's been tremendous and I don't even know who's close to competing with him for sixth
47:56man of the year as it stands.
47:59Yeah, and he wasn't on the radar, at least from a betting odds standpoint to be in the
48:03year.
48:03So it's pretty crazy that he's run away from it or run away with it here.
48:08Yeah, that's it for the Celtics.
48:09They've just been amazing.
48:10They're going to play the Bulls a couple games here coming up.
48:12Sixers.
48:13We'll see who shows up for that game on Christmas next week from Philadelphia.
48:17I hope it's a real game.
48:18I mean, the schedule hasn't been great.
48:21The opponents haven't been great for Boston so far.
48:23So I'm really excited.
48:24January is going to open up with Minnesota, Houston, Oklahoma City, Denver.
48:30Probably the hardest road trip I've ever heard of.
48:34So there's their test and they've fully rested for it because they played like two games
48:38in two and a half weeks here.
48:39So do you have any cup thoughts?
48:44You care?
48:48Does a team like Boston just benefit from banging out of that thing and resting for
48:53two weeks?
48:54Or is like the Milwaukee's and Oklahoma's of the world going to actually get something
48:58out of that?
48:59I think the do you benefit from rest angle is pretty interesting.
49:06As just a viewer, I don't.
49:09I'm personally confused by who's in what group, like throughout the whole group stage
49:14or whatever.
49:15So I don't even understand the standings and I'm too lazy to look it up.
49:18And then I'm someone who loves regular season NBA basketball as it is.
49:25So I don't need this.
49:28I personally just don't need it.
49:30If it's here, that's cool.
49:31I'm going to watch it.
49:32I'm going to enjoy it.
49:33But I can't take it seriously as a concept until the winner takes it seriously.
49:41If the Milwaukee Bucks aren't going to celebrate, then why would anyone care?
49:46So that was interesting to see.
49:50But yeah, it's just a thing and I'll watch it.
49:53And I'm pretty indifferent about its significance, I guess I would say.
49:59He's Michael Pena, good friend of the show, good friend of the network here.
50:02Appreciate him stopping by.
50:04Check out his Rockets piece over on the ringer as well as Jalen Johnson piece that came out
50:10today as well.
50:10He's really exciting.
50:11That team is, you know, dark horses in the east.
50:15They're a fun one.
50:16And they beat the Celtics to knock them out of this cup thing without Trey Young, which
50:19was really impressive early in the year.
50:20But they do seem different this year, which, you know, I talked to Lauren Williams all
50:25the time who covers them.
50:26And she's like, I can't.
50:28I'm not going to say whether this is good or bad, because every time I say it's one
50:31thing, it goes the other way.
50:33But he actually seems to be making them different this year, which that could be a challenging
50:38second round series for Boston.
50:39So I'm excited about them.
50:41Love Jalen Johnson.
50:42Thank you for letting me plug the story.
50:45He had a triple double in that game against the Celtics.
50:47They won without Trey in Boston.
50:52Pretty important stuff.
50:54Pretty big time stuff.
50:55So yeah, I like watching him a lot.
50:57I like the direction that the Hawks are going in finally.
51:01But more importantly, just thank you so much for having me, Bobby.
51:03This was this was a blast.
51:05Yep, no doubt.
51:05And we'll be back tonight postgame after Celtics.
51:08Bowles.
51:09Bowles gave the Celtics a good run last time they played them.
51:12So we'll see what they're able to muster tonight.
51:15And we'll talk to you then.
51:17Thanks, Michael.