Pedro Almodóvar ("The Room Next Door") and Halina Reijn ("Babygirl") talk about working with legendary actors Antonio Banderas, Nicole Kidman, Tilda Swinton and Julianne Moore.
Variety Directors on Directors presented by "Challengers"
Variety Directors on Directors presented by "Challengers"
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00:00:00I really would like to keep on talking about Nicole Kidman and also to keep on talking
00:00:05how much you do admire my work. So let's start.
00:00:20So we just met each other for the first time. Here.
00:00:23Here. Yes.
00:00:24Right here just five minutes ago. Yes.
00:00:27But I've met you in my heart for a very long time ago.
00:00:30Oh well I'm old. I'm older than you.
00:00:34No but you know I'm a huge admirer and I was so honored to be your presence and
00:00:39Oh thank you.
00:00:40I've always, coming from the theater,
00:00:42myself I've always recognized the theater in all of your work.
00:00:45Oh yes. It is very very present in all my movies.
00:00:48Yes. Yes.
00:00:49Very much. But you know I never direct a play. I feel like no, no, no. It is very present
00:00:55sometimes but I never did it.
00:00:57You don't feel the need to direct a play.
00:00:59I mean it's very appealing for me. I feel that I, that I have to do it someday but
00:01:06you know I became Pedro Almodovar which is my name and now I mean if I make a play
00:01:14I'm a debutante and I don't think the people are waiting for someone that is the first time
00:01:19I direct a play.
00:01:21I would love, I mean I think you have directed plays within your movies.
00:01:25I mean The Human Voice by Cocteau.
00:01:27Yes.
00:01:27Is a play you did.
00:01:29And also in Pain and Glory there is a character that's an actor.
00:01:32He plays something that I wrote called The Addiction. I wrote it in the 80s.
00:01:37It represents very much that decade in Spain because you know I mean I belong to that generation.
00:01:45The generation that was raised during the 80s just because Spain was a new democracy.
00:01:54So I was very lucky to be young at that moment because then you know you can enjoy
00:01:59every kind of freedom.
00:02:01Yeah everything opened up.
00:02:02Yes and then I don't know it was an incredible moment.
00:02:07Yes the theater always, always appears in my movies.
00:02:10Yes very present, very, very.
00:02:12You made, you have a lot of experience as a theater actress.
00:02:16Yeah I was mainly a stage actress.
00:02:18I did The Human Voice for 15 years.
00:02:20Oh really?
00:02:21Yeah.
00:02:21We have many things in common.
00:02:22I have many things.
00:02:24Yeah I was so excited when I heard you were gonna make the movie about it.
00:02:29Yes for me it's totally in me you know that play.
00:02:32Yeah I mainly was a stage actress until I decided to direct and I felt for me theater
00:02:38is religion for me.
00:02:39So I was like I didn't want to direct in theater.
00:02:41It almost felt too scary.
00:02:43So I felt I could be more playful directing a movie and that's why around my I think 43
00:02:50I started to ride in the wings instinct my first movie because I felt I could be more
00:02:56reborn again you know because I wanted to invent it myself again.
00:03:00Yeah because it's something very different just to make a movie.
00:03:02Yes, yes.
00:03:03Even for the actors.
00:03:05I mean so different.
00:03:06Yes so I really and then I really felt less heavy as I would have directed in the theater.
00:03:12So that was my choice to then try to direct a movie and I took all the theater plays with
00:03:17me into the movies.
00:03:19I think it's the best I mean I think it's the best school for an actor.
00:03:23Yes.
00:03:23I mean yes to have.
00:03:24Yes.
00:03:24And what about the future?
00:03:25You seem to of course directing movies.
00:03:28Yeah.
00:03:28And sometimes you go back to to be an actress no?
00:03:32During my first movie when I was editing I was still on stage at night.
00:03:35I was on the contract.
00:03:36Oh really?
00:03:37Yes.
00:03:38So I was still performing at night and I would edit during the day and then.
00:03:42Very interesting.
00:03:43Yeah very interesting.
00:03:44At the same time.
00:03:46Very interesting.
00:03:46It's crazy.
00:03:47Yeah it was very crazy.
00:03:48Very long days of course.
00:03:51Very long days.
00:03:53No I feel we were touring the world all the time and I was playing one week had a gobbler
00:03:57in Korea next week Taming of the Shrew in New York next week and at a certain moment
00:04:01growing older I started to become scared on stage because it was too much.
00:04:07I can imagine.
00:04:08Yeah.
00:04:08You know it's too much effort and for your mind.
00:04:12Yes.
00:04:12Specifically.
00:04:12Yes and a sentence like I love you a line like I love you is almost in every classical play.
00:04:18So I would say I love you and be like who am I?
00:04:20Am I the Shrew?
00:04:21Am I Hedda?
00:04:22Am I Nora?
00:04:23Am I you know and Mary Stewart?
00:04:25Who am I?
00:04:26And that was scary.
00:04:27And also to have two different stories at the same time.
00:04:30Yes.
00:04:32No I mean when I'm writing for example I can combine one script with some new ideas from
00:04:38other but this is when I finish the script and I'm making the corrections I can still
00:04:45write something different but not completely I mean in the same way of developing or even
00:04:55when you're shooting when I'm shooting I'm shooting and I'm shooting and editing the
00:04:59movie so I don't do I mean this is the 24 hours.
00:05:02No I completely agree now I do exactly the same I really want to go through the whole
00:05:06thing finish and then think of something new.
00:05:09I'm a little traumatized by the European repertory theater that is that keeps everything
00:05:14you know you play everything at the same time but I think there's no better school for me
00:05:18than to exist in these plays.
00:05:20Absolutely.
00:05:21Also for writing I all these plays are in my in my bones in my so that's my school for
00:05:26writing really.
00:05:27You can do everything now for now from now on that's good.
00:05:32And how did you experience because of course the human voice was already in English right?
00:05:36Yeah I mean yes this is my first movie in English.
00:05:40Yeah you're longer yeah exactly.
00:05:42I mean a long feature because I of course I made with Tilda Swinton first the human
00:05:46voice and also with Ethan Hawke and Pedro Pascal a strange way of life.
00:05:52Yes.
00:05:52That was just to discover if I could do a long feature in English.
00:05:57I mean I feel very scary at the beginning so I didn't I prefer to start.
00:06:02Yes.
00:06:02With a short and the experience was very good with them so just when I when I when I wrote
00:06:09the script I wrote it in Spanish after it was translated and after a bit translated
00:06:15it was translated again just to be completely sure about the language.
00:06:20Yeah.
00:06:20And also at the end you know sometimes the actresses still or Julian they correct me
00:06:26and say this line it's better if we say it like that and of course I mean I don't
00:06:32fight because I can't compare my English with them but yes this is the first one.
00:06:39I'm watering the plants.
00:06:41I thought you had someone who did that for you.
00:06:43I do but today I felt like doing it and I'm enjoying it.
00:06:47Okay good.
00:06:49It was easier than I thought perhaps because I was very lucky to work with Tilda Swinton
00:06:56that I knew her before.
00:06:58I mean between us there is a chemistry.
00:07:00I mean we became immediate very close friends.
00:07:04Yeah.
00:07:04But also I was very lucky that between Tilda and Julian they didn't know each other and
00:07:11when I called them they were very happy to work together because they really loved the
00:07:16idea and they became very close friends.
00:07:20I mean actually they start talking since the very beginnings in the first rehearsal.
00:07:26I mean between takes they were talking all the time in just the 10 weeks that we made
00:07:31the movie.
00:07:32There was a moment that I told them there is any kind of topic that you didn't talk
00:07:37about because they were talking and talking and talking.
00:07:40That was good because.
00:07:40It's amazing no?
00:07:41Yeah.
00:07:42That was good because I mean it's the story of two friends and it's good because you
00:07:47see that chemistry on the screen.
00:07:50And all of this is for you.
00:07:52You have to finish all of it.
00:07:54Wow well I will do my best.
00:07:56I love fruit.
00:07:58I love their chemistry and of course they're two icons.
00:08:00They're two giants as far as actors.
00:08:02Yes.
00:08:03And when did you know in the process that you wanted them?
00:08:06Well since the beginning I thought.
00:08:08I mean after making The Human Boys really I was very hooked by Tilda and I wanted to
00:08:14make something else with her.
00:08:16Just that there is an idea.
00:08:18And then when two years later appears The Room Next Door immediately when I was writing
00:08:25about the sick person I thought about her.
00:08:28I visualized her since the beginning.
00:08:30So I can say that I brought the squid thinking about her.
00:08:34But the other character I wanted someone completely different.
00:08:38So when I finished then I thought also immediately in Julianne.
00:08:43I mean in one hand because I love her way of acting and she's quite unique.
00:08:47I mean she has something very peculiar that only belongs to her.
00:08:52And yes then I call her and send in the squid and she was very happy.
00:08:57So I mean I think I was very lucky just to work with them because everything was quicker
00:09:04than I thought.
00:09:05Because I direct very much the actors.
00:09:08I told them many, many, many things.
00:09:10Sometimes I think I'm talking too much to the actors.
00:09:14Because with them and I rehearse a lot.
00:09:20We start rehearsing during the pre-production but I recognize that we rehearse less than
00:09:26when I'm talking in Spanish because they didn't need it.
00:09:29And also they were very direct to what I wanted.
00:09:34I mean in this movie I remember that I made less takes than in my Spanish movies.
00:09:40In my Spanish movies I can take from 10 to 20 times.
00:09:45And with them I made from 2 to 4.
00:09:49I mean just nothing.
00:09:51Do you also think that the limitation of the language brought you something positive in
00:09:55that sense?
00:09:55Besides that they were such good actresses you were limited and therefore you think it
00:09:59was more efficient in a way.
00:10:01Yeah I think so.
00:10:02And also because they were very inspired all the time.
00:10:08Usually there is a type of actress that needs to make one and the 10 times is much better.
00:10:16And even the 15 times it is really amazing.
00:10:20So I do all the 15 takes.
00:10:23But with them I mean the first take it was very good.
00:10:27So I just to be sure I made the second and the third one.
00:10:32But they were very much I mean focused.
00:10:35They were perfect both of them.
00:10:38So I said that's enough.
00:10:41It was a big surprise for me.
00:10:43But with Tilda and Julian it was something different and quicker and very moving.
00:10:52Yes very moving.
00:10:53Very moving.
00:10:54And are you afraid of death yourself?
00:10:57Absolutely.
00:10:58Me too.
00:10:59Yeah.
00:11:00Very much.
00:11:00This is I don't know if say quality.
00:11:03But this is something that I add to Julian character to Ingrid.
00:11:08This is exactly the way that I feel.
00:11:10I mean I don't accept it.
00:11:12I don't understand it.
00:11:13Even if we have many I mean thousands of examples every day unfortunately.
00:11:18But in this field I feel very immature.
00:11:24I think every day I think about that.
00:11:27You don't accept it?
00:11:28No I don't.
00:11:29You're in denial.
00:11:30I don't.
00:11:31And also I'm not a believer.
00:11:33So I mean in Spain.
00:11:35Spain is a non-confessional country.
00:11:38I mean that is not an official religion.
00:11:42But the majority is Catholic.
00:11:45Right.
00:11:45So I'm not.
00:11:46No.
00:11:46I don't.
00:11:47You don't believe in anything.
00:11:48You think it ends.
00:11:49No, no, no.
00:11:49I'm atheist.
00:11:50Yes.
00:11:51So if you are like that then you don't need you don't have any kind of support.
00:11:58So I mean I'm sure that because the movie is about mortality that after that I mean after
00:12:05the body is finished I'm sure that the spirit is somewhere.
00:12:11I don't think that people ends with the dead.
00:12:15But there is a mystery for me.
00:12:17Yes.
00:12:18But I was so pleasantly surprised because your movie is about death of course and about
00:12:23sickness and saying goodbye.
00:12:25I was afraid to watch it to be honest with you because I knew it was going to be about
00:12:29that and it's one I'm the same as you that I almost feel like I'm a child in that I don't
00:12:34want it to end and I'm like and I'm enjoying it.
00:12:36Like a child you say.
00:12:37And so I was but then I was so pleasantly surprised that for me the movie was so warm
00:12:43and so I felt I felt somehow way more at ease with death after watching the movie.
00:12:51You know I tried to make that in that way.
00:12:54I didn't want to make a dark movie or shoddy or gory.
00:12:59No because the movie represent the vitality of Martha's character.
00:13:05And in this case death is something that she decided.
00:13:09So she's the owner of her life but also the owner of her death.
00:13:14And I think this is a right.
00:13:15This is a human right that we have.
00:13:18I mean in Spain I don't know I don't know in your country.
00:13:20In Spain we have euthanasia law.
00:13:23Yeah we have that too in the Netherlands where I'm from.
00:13:25Yeah because we that in Europe there is only four country.
00:13:29Yeah.
00:13:29So there is a big debate everywhere.
00:13:31Yes.
00:13:31Here for example.
00:13:32Yes.
00:13:33I mean religion is always a problem for that.
00:13:36Because I mean in my country the Catholic thinks that God gives you the life
00:13:42and he is the only one just to take it away.
00:13:46Yeah.
00:13:46And what I what I ask to that people is just to respect the people that like me
00:13:51that we don't believe exactly like them.
00:13:56And then we decided.
00:13:58Yes.
00:13:59Yes.
00:14:00Just to respect that.
00:14:01Yeah.
00:14:01It's becoming a bigger and bigger topic I think also because
00:14:05people are growing older more people are growing older than ever before.
00:14:08In Spain we are older than ever.
00:14:11Exactly.
00:14:12So it's very relevant.
00:14:13The movie is incredibly relevant.
00:14:14And what I also loved about it that for me it was so much about friendship.
00:14:18I also love that she already asked her other friends to assist her.
00:14:21You know she's very ill so of course she has a reason.
00:14:24And she asked and nobody wants to do it.
00:14:26Nobody wants to help her be in the next room right.
00:14:28And that is so recognizable for me being a woman alone.
00:14:31I don't have a family.
00:14:32So I was so relating to that where I was like oh what if I ask my friends what would they say.
00:14:37And then she finds her.
00:14:38Yeah.
00:14:38That theme is very important in the movie.
00:14:40Yes.
00:14:41To be there.
00:14:42Yes.
00:14:42The fact to be close to someone.
00:14:44Yeah.
00:14:44And sometimes this is the only thing we can do for the people we love our friends our lovers
00:14:50our family just to be there.
00:14:52Yeah.
00:14:53I mean even without talking.
00:14:55Yes.
00:14:55Just to hold the space just to sit with each other.
00:14:58And this kind of solidarity it is sometimes bigger than love.
00:15:04Because it's less complicated.
00:15:05Yes.
00:15:06Than if you are in love with someone.
00:15:07Yeah.
00:15:08So nice here.
00:15:10I'd like to stay if you don't mind.
00:15:13No of course not.
00:15:16So I prefer a little deep friendship between them than a romantic relation.
00:15:22Me too.
00:15:23Very much.
00:15:24I mean the contradiction is.
00:15:26I mean the movie is about to give company.
00:15:28Yes.
00:15:28Yes.
00:15:29But the contradiction of life is of course that we keep longing for a romantic partner.
00:15:32Right.
00:15:33It's like it's almost it's so primal.
00:15:35But friendships are more.
00:15:36Yeah.
00:15:37They are more unconditional.
00:15:38They last most of the time incredibly long.
00:15:42And it's a beautiful thing.
00:15:43And I thought that your movie celebrates that in every way.
00:15:46And in my movie also they talk about sex.
00:15:51You remember that.
00:15:54Yes.
00:15:54It is Martha basically.
00:15:58Martha basically was.
00:16:01I mean she's a war reporter.
00:16:04And I love that she says that sometimes when she can't sleep she remembers.
00:16:11I mean all men that she made love.
00:16:14Even one night.
00:16:15Yeah.
00:16:16I mean I read some books about war reporters, female reporters.
00:16:21And really in all of them.
00:16:24I mean at the end of the day after watching horrible tragedies they drink a lot.
00:16:30And they fuck a lot.
00:16:32Yes.
00:16:32And also I agree with her that sexual pleasure is one of the best seals that we have.
00:16:39I mean like the Carmelites in my movie.
00:16:41They are in Baghdad because they are together.
00:16:44Yes.
00:16:44And also just to fight against death.
00:16:47I mean I think our sexuality is one of the best weapons we have.
00:16:52It's Eros and Thanatos.
00:16:54And Eros and Thanatos.
00:16:55Eros and Thanatos.
00:16:56Sex and death.
00:16:57And so you have many things to say about sex because your movies.
00:17:02There is a lot of sexuality in your movie.
00:17:04Yes.
00:17:05That's right.
00:17:06How did you.
00:17:07When did you start writing.
00:17:09How did you start.
00:17:10I mean where comes the idea.
00:17:12The first idea.
00:17:13I was.
00:17:14So I directed my first American movie called Bodies.
00:17:16Bodies.
00:17:17Bodies.
00:17:17And coming.
00:17:18I knew.
00:17:18I didn't see.
00:17:19I knew the title.
00:17:20And then coming out of that.
00:17:23I knew because Bodies.
00:17:24Bodies.
00:17:24Bodies wasn't my own script.
00:17:25I made it very much my own together with Sarah DeLapp.
00:17:28We rewrote it.
00:17:29And I love doing it.
00:17:31But after all my classical theater background it was very refreshing to do something more fun.
00:17:36Because Bodies is a horror comedy.
00:17:38And it was about group behavior.
00:17:40Basically the question is the beast inside us or outside of us.
00:17:44And so that is what I think is sort of my main theme is are we beasts.
00:17:50Or are we civilized.
00:17:51What is driving me.
00:17:52And I find it very.
00:17:53We are both.
00:17:54Yeah we are both.
00:17:55Exactly.
00:17:56But I'm often very surprised by my own behavior where I think.
00:18:00You know I'm smart.
00:18:02I read books.
00:18:02I should know everything.
00:18:03And then I do something completely against all of my knowledge.
00:18:07Something that I know is bad for me.
00:18:09And I'm just like going there.
00:18:11And so I had this question around my own rage.
00:18:15My own sexual desire.
00:18:18All of the things that I'm embarrassed about.
00:18:20That I'm ashamed of.
00:18:22And I was like is it possible to love all the parts of myself.
00:18:26Is it possible to love my darkness.
00:18:28To love my.
00:18:29And that's why I wanted to write that movie.
00:18:31It's more healthy.
00:18:33Yes it's way more healthy.
00:18:34But it's sometimes hard.
00:18:36No because no sometimes.
00:18:37I mean I recognize that.
00:18:39I mean in Pain and Glory for example.
00:18:41That I ask myself I'm ready really to write about this.
00:18:45And not only that.
00:18:46I'm ready to talk with the journalist about this thing that is so personal.
00:18:52Because sometimes when the character demands something from you.
00:18:57I mean you have to take into your guts.
00:19:00Yes.
00:19:01Take something that perhaps you don't want to do it at the moment.
00:19:06But it's always better.
00:19:07It's always better.
00:19:08Yes.
00:19:09And no I found it very interesting.
00:19:12That now I mean in this moment for example in Spain.
00:19:16There is a big debate among the feminists.
00:19:18But about among the society in general.
00:19:21About the consentimiento.
00:19:25Consent.
00:19:26Yes.
00:19:26Not only in a rape.
00:19:28Even with a boyfriend.
00:19:30But also in the marriage.
00:19:32I mean with your husband.
00:19:34So there's a big big big debate.
00:19:36And it's very delicate to whom they believe.
00:19:41So in this moment like that.
00:19:44You make a movie.
00:19:46That the incredible Nicole Kidman.
00:19:48She wants to be.
00:19:52She wants to be dominated.
00:19:53And she wants to be submissive herself.
00:19:55And she wants to be dominated by this young man.
00:19:58I don't know what the feminists think about that.
00:20:02But I think that she's the owner.
00:20:05She's in power.
00:20:06Yes.
00:20:06Because she's the one that decides to be in that position.
00:20:11And that is very interesting.
00:20:13Unacceptable.
00:20:15Unacceptable.
00:20:16Yes.
00:20:23I consider myself a feminist.
00:20:25And I think true feminism for me personally is.
00:20:28That we can be all of those things.
00:20:30I was always in the wings.
00:20:31Watching men play Richard III and Macbeth.
00:20:34And all these like characters that were corrupt.
00:20:36And that had all these desires.
00:20:37And you know I as a female had to do Ophelia.
00:20:40Which like has five scenes.
00:20:42And starts as a virgin.
00:20:43And then before you know it commits suicide.
00:20:45So I wanted to create a part for a woman.
00:20:48That would be all of those things.
00:20:50You know that would be a wonderful mother.
00:20:52And a wife.
00:20:54But also a lover who's crawling around on her hands and knees.
00:20:57Because I am so confused by this idea.
00:20:59That I have to play all those different roles in my life.
00:21:02And I just wanted to see if I could make a movie.
00:21:05Where in the end she's more integrated.
00:21:07And she finds some kind of liberation.
00:21:09And to me that is feminism.
00:21:10That we now get a little bit more space.
00:21:13To sort of explore all these different sides.
00:21:15I agree.
00:21:16And do you think that she was out or repressed.
00:21:20In the marriage.
00:21:21Since the moment that she find this boy.
00:21:25I think what.
00:21:27I think if.
00:21:28She's repressed.
00:21:30Yes.
00:21:30I think that if Antonio Banderas and Nicole Kidman.
00:21:33In their characters.
00:21:34Would have sit down before the movie.
00:21:36And she would have been radically honest with her husband.
00:21:39I think the movie wouldn't have to take place.
00:21:41I think she because she is suppressing that.
00:21:43Because she has this idea that a lot of us have.
00:21:46That she has to be perfect.
00:21:47That's why she sits in the ice bath.
00:21:49She does the Botox.
00:21:50She does the therapy.
00:21:51She thinks I can just.
00:21:52As long as I can erase all my imperfections.
00:21:54Then I will be loved.
00:21:56Then I will be happy.
00:21:57But she doesn't truly let her beast come out.
00:21:59Also not with her husband.
00:22:00Who's not even asking her to hide the beast in the cupboard.
00:22:04She's doing that.
00:22:05She's making the beast fall asleep all the time.
00:22:07Until she can't anymore.
00:22:08And it wakes up.
00:22:09And it comes.
00:22:10And so it's a cautionary tale for me about suppression.
00:22:14For myself.
00:22:15Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:22:16Trying to.
00:22:17Good.
00:22:18And then what about the end.
00:22:20After she explained more or less everything to the husband.
00:22:24Do you think that of course.
00:22:26That their relation is going to change.
00:22:28Yes.
00:22:28And adapted to their real condition.
00:22:31Yes, I think that.
00:22:32And of course my movie is also a fable and a fairy tale.
00:22:35So I don't know.
00:22:35It's not a documentary.
00:22:36But it's a hope.
00:22:37It's a hope.
00:22:38I know.
00:22:39It's a hope that they meet each other where they are.
00:22:41You know, they meet each other on the marital bed at the end.
00:22:46The husband and the wife.
00:22:47And they meet each other where they are.
00:22:48And what I find very beautiful.
00:22:49Is that Antonio then allows her.
00:22:52In this character of Jacob.
00:22:53Allows her to go into her own world.
00:22:55And who does she see?
00:22:56Her ex-lover.
00:22:57Because we are constantly when we're in bed together.
00:23:00We're surrounded by the ghosts of our past.
00:23:02And the ghosts of what we saw in movies.
00:23:04Or a poster of an actor we like or whatever.
00:23:06And that's okay.
00:23:07You can still be very intimate with each other.
00:23:09At the same time be in your own fantasy world.
00:23:12Yeah.
00:23:13So it's a happy end.
00:23:14It's a happy end.
00:23:15It is a happy end.
00:23:16Literally and figuratively.
00:23:18I work, you know.
00:23:19I work many times with Antonio.
00:23:21I know that.
00:23:22Of course he was talking about you constantly.
00:23:24Yeah.
00:23:24Well, there is two actors in your movie that I work.
00:23:28I mean with Esther McGregor too.
00:23:30Yes.
00:23:30That is in my movie.
00:23:31Yes.
00:23:32So she plays the young Tilda Swinton.
00:23:34The young Tilda Swinton.
00:23:35And in my movie she plays the oldest daughter of Nicole Kidman.
00:23:38And she's an amazing actress.
00:23:39Don't you think?
00:23:39Oh, she's incredible.
00:23:41Very special.
00:23:41No, I love very much.
00:23:43I mean the energy.
00:23:44Because I mean the casting she made.
00:23:47It was very brief.
00:23:48I love her physically.
00:23:50The hair.
00:23:51Her face.
00:23:51And so happy.
00:23:53So strong.
00:23:54Even she's very young.
00:23:56She has this kind of strength that also Tilda has when she's older.
00:24:01And with Antonio, you know, I mean we start making movies together.
00:24:05I know.
00:24:06In her first movie he came from Malaga.
00:24:09And when he was even three months we meet each other and we made Labyrinth of Patience.
00:24:16And since there are many, many movies.
00:24:17Yes.
00:24:18Seven movies more.
00:24:19Yes.
00:24:19And how do you think of him when you were writing?
00:24:23When and how?
00:24:24Well, so I wrote the...
00:24:26It was your first choice?
00:24:27Yes.
00:24:28Oh, yes.
00:24:28So I wrote the draft.
00:24:30And then me and Noah Sacco.
00:24:32Noah Sacco is the head of film of A24 who has amazing casting ideas.
00:24:36And I was explaining to him.
00:24:37I said I need a man for this.
00:24:40Specifically for the husband of Romy, of Nicole Kidman.
00:24:43That is very masculine.
00:24:46Macho.
00:24:47Because I want it not to be about...
00:24:49Of course he's going to cheat on him because he's whatever.
00:24:51No.
00:24:51I want him to be this amazing, warm, you know, sexy character.
00:24:56But also I need someone who can really act.
00:24:58Because Nicole has a lot of screen time to show her whole full range.
00:25:01But this part doesn't have that many scenes.
00:25:03But he has to, you know, really be there.
00:25:06And so and then Noah said, what about Antonio Banderas?
00:25:10And I said he will never do it.
00:25:12I said he will never, ever do that.
00:25:14I was like, are you insane?
00:25:17And then Noah said, let's try.
00:25:19And I was, I've never been more nervous in my life.
00:25:22And then he read it and then resumed and immediately said, yes.
00:25:25Can you be a little bit more specific?
00:25:27I've never experienced any of these fantasies.
00:25:33He said, yes, I want to support this story about women.
00:25:36I think it's really important about sexuality.
00:25:38That these things that, you know, are hidden.
00:25:40Especially after Me Too, sometimes we tend to not want to speak about it.
00:25:44Or we want to, you know, it was, of course, a very important movement, as we both know.
00:25:48But it's very important to also keep shining a light
00:25:51on all these things inside of us that we are struggling with.
00:25:54Because it's more dangerous.
00:25:55It is very important to talk about that.
00:25:57Because there was one moment with Me Too that I thought, I mean,
00:26:02as a writer, as a man and also as a director,
00:26:05that we're about to talk about passion.
00:26:09We're about to talk that you are seducting someone.
00:26:13And this is an aggression, just to look at someone with desire,
00:26:17which is very important.
00:26:18It's very important.
00:26:19I mean, that was one of the reasons that I cast Antonio since the beginning.
00:26:24Because in the way he looks to the other, in my movies of the 80s,
00:26:28in general, desire was a very important element.
00:26:33And Antonio was like that.
00:26:35I mean, he could just think, I mean, look at someone, but really with desire.
00:26:39And that's important.
00:26:41And I thought that I was scared that perhaps with the Me Too things
00:26:48that you cannot be so clear with someone.
00:26:52I mean, if you are like here or in one elevator, can I look at you?
00:26:58I mean, and with my eyes clearly saying that,
00:27:02I mean, I really like you or not.
00:27:05I think it's very important just to do it.
00:27:08And of course, the civilized person and the mature person can say,
00:27:12I mean, that is very clear for me, the limit.
00:27:14Yeah, no, thank you.
00:27:15Yes, please.
00:27:16When you are, yes.
00:27:18Yes.
00:27:18No, I think it's incredibly important to,
00:27:20and I love what you're saying about Antonio, by the way,
00:27:23his passion, of course, in everything is amazing and impressive
00:27:27and just such a joy to work with.
00:27:29And it creates a chemistry between him and whoever is opposite him
00:27:32in a scene that is electrifying.
00:27:34But I think for me, the Me Too movement has been incredibly important.
00:27:39Having been an actress, of course,
00:27:41having experienced a lot of these things that you don't want to experience.
00:27:44So I consider myself part of that as we all do.
00:27:48But I think at the same time, and that goes for any topic,
00:27:52it's just incredibly important,
00:27:53whether we make theater or paintings or write books or talk to each other
00:27:56to keep being open and radically honest
00:27:59about these things that are darker inside of us.
00:28:01Because the moment you bring them to the light
00:28:03and you dare to discuss them together, it's healing.
00:28:06And then the danger actually can maybe move away.
00:28:09But when you suppress them and we say, no, it doesn't exist,
00:28:12that is when I become very, very scared.
00:28:15And I also feel isolated.
00:28:17So my movie, I also make as a conversation starter,
00:28:20just we have these Q&As after the screenings
00:28:22and sometimes they go very extreme
00:28:24because it's especially for women to talk about the orgasm gap that exists.
00:28:30And these things are very...
00:28:32Do you talk about that in the Q&As?
00:28:33In the Q&As, we do.
00:28:34Yes, it's wonderful.
00:28:36Like women, they don't even necessarily want to talk about the movie.
00:28:39They want to talk about what they went through or what they hope for.
00:28:43And this is such a taboo, even under women.
00:28:47We all lie to each other.
00:28:49So that has been very liberating.
00:28:51Did you have an intimacy coordinator or...
00:28:54Yes.
00:28:55And do you think you need it?
00:28:58What I love about intimacy coordinators is in my mind,
00:29:01they teach me tricks just like a stuntman.
00:29:03So when I am doing a fight scene and a stuntman says,
00:29:06well, if you do this, it will look more extreme.
00:29:08And with sexuality on screen, it's the same.
00:29:11So they can teach you little tricks that actually are way less intimate to do,
00:29:16but they have an effect that is more extreme.
00:29:18So I think it's great.
00:29:20I think it only gives me more freedom.
00:29:22It gives me more what I want.
00:29:26And I like to...
00:29:27Lizzie, she was called.
00:29:27I love to talk to her when I'm creating these scenes in my head,
00:29:30when I'm choreographing them.
00:29:32She gives me ideas.
00:29:33So for me, it was very lovely.
00:29:35I like it.
00:29:36What does that turn you on when I say that?
00:29:42Get on your knees.
00:29:45The movie is quite explicit that I applaud in this moment.
00:29:52But I think one of the keys is that Nicole is completely...
00:29:57I imagine her saying to you,
00:30:00just do with me whatever you want.
00:30:02I mean, absolutely fearless and ready to do everything you demanded.
00:30:08It was like that.
00:30:10No, she was completely open.
00:30:12Completely open.
00:30:13I think she really knew what the movie was, of course,
00:30:16because she read the very first draft of the script
00:30:19and she really wanted to do it.
00:30:21And I think she also knew after her insanely beautiful career
00:30:26that she wanted to go back to this movie,
00:30:28which is a little bit smaller and a little bit darker.
00:30:32And so, yeah, we really went there together
00:30:34and she was incredibly vulnerable.
00:30:36But also Antonio, I think, and Harris and all of them.
00:30:41I'm super grateful that they gave me the trust.
00:30:43And having been an actress,
00:30:44I think my full priority is that they feel mentally safe
00:30:48and physically, of course, also.
00:30:49But because I've experienced myself a lot,
00:30:52I think that is so ingrained in me
00:30:54that I want to create this very sweet environment.
00:30:57And I also have the limitation of language.
00:30:59I really do, because English is not my first language.
00:31:02Dutch is.
00:31:02So often, when I direct, I use my full body.
00:31:06I really would like to talk like you.
00:31:07You are perfect.
00:31:09You're absolutely perfect.
00:31:11I know that I'm not.
00:31:11No, but in the heat of the moment,
00:31:13I get like, I want to explain you something.
00:31:15And then I explain it physically.
00:31:18You know, I can move my body in a way where I explain it like that.
00:31:22But anyway, I think because now, curiously,
00:31:25the more explicit movies about sex,
00:31:29they are directed by women.
00:31:31I mean, The Substance, Titan, there are many movies.
00:31:35Yes.
00:31:36And I think it's good because in one part,
00:31:39I mean, in my movies, there is a lot of sexual scene,
00:31:43the lovemaking scene.
00:31:45But I think that, I mean, the male directors and male writers,
00:31:49we don't know completely what is the female pleasure.
00:31:55I mean, you are the one to tell about that.
00:31:58I mean, it was obvious that we couldn't.
00:32:01I mean, we couldn't.
00:32:02I mean, the male director, we couldn't do that.
00:32:04No, I agree in the sense that even,
00:32:07you could even ask yourself as a woman,
00:32:09you know, what is the female gaze, really?
00:32:11Like, I really need to bring full consciousness to myself
00:32:14to not slip into my own male gaze.
00:32:16Because I've been raised also in the theater.
00:32:18I've only worked with very dominant, amazing geniuses of men.
00:32:23But I made it sort of like I really was the muse figure.
00:32:27And I really loved being that
00:32:28because my father died when I was very young.
00:32:30So I was really looking for that kind of father figure.
00:32:33But so now it's very important for me,
00:32:35like now I'm like, okay, now I am the father.
00:32:37I'm the father figure.
00:32:38And then I want to be female.
00:32:40Like you said, I want to really,
00:32:42and I had to bring, I really had to think about it.
00:32:44Like, what is the pure female gaze?
00:32:47But I agree with you.
00:32:48I think it's an exploration.
00:32:49You don't need that.
00:32:50I mean, you are female.
00:32:50So the gaze is yours.
00:32:53So it's a natural female gaze.
00:32:57And I got the feeling that in this movie,
00:33:01thinking about Nicole and you,
00:33:03I got the feeling that being two women,
00:33:07that the conversation that you have with Nicole,
00:33:11saying her the things you want to do,
00:33:13just in the lovemaking scene, in the sexual scene,
00:33:18I think that conversation is different
00:33:21if Nicole has to talk about that with a man.
00:33:24Yes.
00:33:24I think it's much more clear if you two are women.
00:33:29With a man, I think it's difficult to talk
00:33:33with the same kind of depth about that sequence.
00:33:38It's much easier that you both are women.
00:33:41Yes. I think you're absolutely right.
00:33:43But I also think still that even,
00:33:46I think part of her journey in the movie
00:33:48is also that she has to liberate herself
00:33:50from the idea of,
00:33:53I only want to be what you want me to be.
00:33:56Like she says literally to Antonio,
00:33:58she says, I want to be the woman you like.
00:34:00I just want to be normal.
00:34:01I want to be what you like.
00:34:02And that is how we are still programmed fully.
00:34:05We just got the right to vote, basically.
00:34:06It's a couple of years ago.
00:34:08So I think that it's very important
00:34:10that we liberate ourselves.
00:34:11So me and Nicole also had to think about
00:34:14and become radically honest with each other
00:34:16because women are not always about our own...
00:34:19Our own secrets, our own vulnerabilities.
00:34:23And then we could do it.
00:34:23But it was interesting to me
00:34:25how much work it still was for myself
00:34:27to really know what is it then exactly that I want.
00:34:32It's not that I have this secret of,
00:34:33this is what I want.
00:34:34No, I don't even know what I want.
00:34:36I'm just being born.
00:34:38Yeah, it's a discovery.
00:34:39We're just like, you know,
00:34:40and now we get a little more space
00:34:42as female directors and female storytellers.
00:34:43And it's a very interesting time.
00:34:45I'm very excited about it, of course.
00:34:47I mean, I got the feeling also that sometimes
00:34:49Nicole as an actress and also as a person
00:34:52is vulnerable and feel insecure
00:34:56and doing the more extreme sequence.
00:35:00But that was good for the character.
00:35:03Yes, you mean the vulnerability
00:35:05and almost the fragility of it.
00:35:07Yes, I agree.
00:35:08Because both of them, of course,
00:35:09because the movie also I hope is about masculinity
00:35:12because the young man is also trying out masculinity
00:35:15and he's saying to her,
00:35:16he's giving her a command and then he's laughing.
00:35:18He doesn't even know, you know,
00:35:19should I be embarrassed?
00:35:20Am I okay asking you this?
00:35:22So they're both kind of like experimenting
00:35:25with what is masculinity?
00:35:26What is femininity?
00:35:27What is domination?
00:35:28What is submission?
00:35:29And I think they're both extremely vulnerable
00:35:32in the sexual scenes.
00:35:34And for me, that is also funny for me a lot.
00:35:36And that is what I admire so much about your work,
00:35:38that even though the topics can be incredibly dark
00:35:41and dramatic and about life and death and sexuality,
00:35:44there's always humor.
00:35:45And I find that incredibly important humor.
00:35:47The movie still needs to be, in my mind,
00:35:49a Trojan horse that you can laugh,
00:35:51you can have fun, you're entertained.
00:35:53And then underneath that all,
00:35:55we can put all the...
00:35:56Yeah, easier always you use humor
00:35:59in that kind of strong themes.
00:36:02It is always easy.
00:36:03Always easier.
00:36:04Easier.
00:36:05And it allows you to open up.
00:36:07I find myself as an audience,
00:36:09it allows you to breathe out and say,
00:36:10okay, I go on this journey.
00:36:12Because again, with the room next door,
00:36:13I was like, oh no, what am I going to feel
00:36:15when I see this movie?
00:36:16And I only felt seen by it.
00:36:19Very seen.
00:36:19It really moved me.
00:36:21And very warm.
00:36:22And I was also, there was a lot of humor in it, I feel.
00:36:25Like Julianne Moore also brings this very specific humor,
00:36:28the scene with the personal trainer.
00:36:29I thought it was so funny.
00:36:32And also even at the house in the forest.
00:36:34Yes.
00:36:34That will say, oh, I know that yesterday I was awful.
00:36:38I mean, I cannot be like that,
00:36:39but I cannot promise you
00:36:41because, you know, of my chemo brain.
00:36:43So I leave here this kind of piece for anxiety.
00:36:47I mean.
00:36:48For you to relax.
00:36:49For you, in the case that happened, you know.
00:36:52And then Julianne said, oh my God, you are one of a kind.
00:36:56And I could, you know, in that specific sequence,
00:37:01I could be more funny,
00:37:03but Tilda was ready to be beyond that.
00:37:08But Julianne told me that she was afraid
00:37:11of to be offending someone that is sick.
00:37:14Right, right, right.
00:37:15And I said, oh, no, okay.
00:37:16Okay, no, no.
00:37:17We control, try to be a little funny, but.
00:37:19Yeah, yeah.
00:37:20Julianne is superb and he's fantastic in the movie.
00:37:23But I also see that Julianne is, it was American,
00:37:27is American.
00:37:28And Tilda belongs to a different place.
00:37:31Scottish in this case.
00:37:33I mean, we don't have this kind of fear
00:37:36of being offending someone.
00:37:38Yes, no, it's a different culture.
00:37:40I mean, I don't know when you start writing and you feel,
00:37:43oh, I have to be careful not to offend.
00:37:46When you start writing, you try to be the more honest.
00:37:49Yes.
00:37:49And of course you are offending someone, but.
00:37:52Yeah.
00:37:53But this is part of life.
00:37:54This is part of our game.
00:37:56And this is part also of making cinema.
00:38:00You try to make something original and something deep
00:38:03and something that perhaps you are even ashamed of that.
00:38:06Yes.
00:38:07That you have to be free completely at the moment of being.
00:38:11So I think, I got the feeling that in Europe,
00:38:15we got this kind, in a natural way,
00:38:18this kind of freedom at the moment of creating
00:38:21what is script or making a movie.
00:38:23Completely.
00:38:23I mean, the Dutch people, they are,
00:38:25they say that we are the most blunt people in the world.
00:38:28The most impolite people in the world.
00:38:30So that took me a little, you know,
00:38:32we're like farmers a little bit.
00:38:34Yeah.
00:38:34So it took me a little bit of an adjustment
00:38:36when I arrived in the US.
00:38:37It's very different.
00:38:39But I do think what I love about your work,
00:38:41and I've always loved,
00:38:42because European artists can be very dark
00:38:44and very unforgiving.
00:38:46And I feel in your films,
00:38:48even though, again, you touch upon taboo subjects,
00:38:50you touch up, you are radically honest in my mind.
00:38:53But at the same time, there's always a warmth.
00:38:55There's always a love.
00:38:57I mean, I always think that they are human beings, people.
00:39:03For example, in Talk to Her,
00:39:04which it was very difficult to talk about this psycho,
00:39:08which is the nurse,
00:39:10that he understands the life and everything
00:39:13in a neurotic way.
00:39:15But I try to, I mean, the spectator,
00:39:20to be empathy with him.
00:39:23Because what I'm trying to say about this boy,
00:39:27or, I mean, this man,
00:39:28is the humanity of his.
00:39:30Yes.
00:39:31That, I mean, of course,
00:39:33I mean, he after, he rapes the women.
00:39:38Of course, that is awful.
00:39:40That is a crime.
00:39:42But I try to understand him.
00:39:44Yes.
00:39:44Always, even if they do awful things,
00:39:47I try to just to explain them like human beings.
00:39:53And then everybody understand that.
00:39:56So I really would like to keep on talking about Nicole Kidman.
00:40:00I'll also to keep on talking,
00:40:02how much do you do admire my work?
00:40:06So let's start with Nicole.
00:40:10Because, I mean,
00:40:12you work with one of the biggest stars in here, in Hollywood.
00:40:17How Nicole arrives to your project?
00:40:22Well, so I made my first very small,
00:40:24incredibly small Dutch movie.
00:40:26Very small.
00:40:27It was about therapist.
00:40:28This was based on a true story who fell in love with a rapist
00:40:32that she was treating in jail.
00:40:34Very dark movie.
00:40:36Interesting.
00:40:36Yeah.
00:40:37And Carice van Houten, who is my best friend,
00:40:39she played the lead.
00:40:40You know, we made it with Dutch government money.
00:40:43Incredibly small.
00:40:44Everybody would participate for free.
00:40:46How can I see that movie?
00:40:47I will send it to you right away.
00:40:50But this movie never came out in America.
00:40:53Yeah.
00:40:54And Nicole, being who she is,
00:40:56always searching for female directors,
00:40:58found it, watched it and called me.
00:41:02And then we started to speak.
00:41:05So first I worked on a project that she brought me
00:41:08because she has this production company called Blossom Films.
00:41:11And I really enjoyed that because like you,
00:41:14I always worry about language.
00:41:15I was not sure I could write in English.
00:41:18I could work in English.
00:41:20I wasn't sure.
00:41:21And then so I wrote on something for her in English
00:41:24that gave me a lot of confidence.
00:41:25And I had fun with it because it wasn't my own film.
00:41:28And I really enjoyed that.
00:41:29And then I made Bodies.
00:41:32And then after Bodies, I really had that one question,
00:41:35like, how do I love this dark part of myself?
00:41:37And so I wanted to write this script.
00:41:38So I told her, I was like,
00:41:39listen, I'm just going to take some time off
00:41:41of everything else because I'm writing my own script.
00:41:43It's called Baby Girl.
00:41:44She was like, what is that?
00:41:46And I was like, well, I tell you later.
00:41:48And then I sent her the first, when I...
00:41:50Yeah, first draft and immediately she was like...
00:41:52Oh, that was very easy.
00:41:54Yeah, so that was how it...
00:41:56And then I love to collaborate with actors.
00:41:58So then we had endless conversations and I do rewrites.
00:42:01But same with Harris Dickinson and same with Antonio.
00:42:03I love talking to actors and getting inspired by them
00:42:07and using things, even little things that they,
00:42:09like Harris, for instance, when we met,
00:42:11he said to me, you shouldn't drink so much coffee.
00:42:13Like he said something super fatherly
00:42:15and I was like, oh, that's great.
00:42:17You shouldn't drink coffee after lunch.
00:42:20How many do you drink a day?
00:42:24None of your business.
00:42:25Seven.
00:42:27Very often they say things to me, the actors,
00:42:29also with bodies, I did that all the time.
00:42:31That's why bodies for me felt also so accurate
00:42:34for their generation.
00:42:35But that was because it was constantly collaborating
00:42:37and feeding off of them and writing down things
00:42:39they were saying to each other, working with the actor.
00:42:43So yeah, that's how it was.
00:42:44I support that you seem to keep on working with her
00:42:49because when you find someone
00:42:51that really understand you very well
00:42:53and you get that relation or this relation,
00:42:56I think it's good to keep on working together.
00:42:58Yeah, because you did that a lot, right?
00:43:00Yeah, yeah.
00:43:00Yes, you come back and back and back.
00:43:02I love that.
00:43:03Because then there is, I mean, you save time with that.
00:43:07I mean, when I work with Penelope Cruz or Antonio,
00:43:10I mean, I know that they understood me
00:43:12and I understand them and that make everything quicker.
00:43:17And also it's nice to work with friends or, I mean-
00:43:22I couldn't agree more.
00:43:23Absolutely.
00:43:24And in the theater, I was with one group for 20 years.
00:43:27So what I also love-
00:43:27Oh, 20 years?
00:43:28Yeah, with mainly one director.
00:43:29You were a child when you start.
00:43:33And then what I love about it also
00:43:35is that you see each other grow in life.
00:43:37Like you meet each other again
00:43:38and you play with the same actor
00:43:40and now he's 10 years older
00:43:42and you play opposite each other, different roles.
00:43:44And with the director, everybody grows
00:43:46and has different experiences
00:43:48and brings that back to the art.
00:43:50And I think, yeah, no, I would love to work
00:43:52with all of my four leads.
00:43:54Really, this is how I felt.
00:43:55Como se dice?
00:43:56Una compañía estable.
00:43:57Like a stable company.
00:43:59Yes, an ensemble.
00:44:00Making movies.
00:44:01Yes.
00:44:01Like in the theater.
00:44:02Yes, no, it's very-
00:44:04Those people were all my brothers and sisters
00:44:06and children and fathers and mothers.
00:44:08And I miss them to this day so much.
00:44:10I still try to see their work and follow them.
00:44:13But yeah, it's a very special thing.
00:44:15And of course, that's also the beauty of what Europe has
00:44:18is government money, you know,
00:44:19where the experiment and that you can-
00:44:21We all had, very small,
00:44:23but we all had a salary that we could live off of
00:44:25and we had the trust of the company
00:44:27and, you know, knowing that you can play
00:44:29all these different parts.
00:44:30So I'm very grateful for that.
00:44:32No, no, this is an amazing school.
00:44:34I think it's the best you could do.
00:44:36And what was the last play you did?
00:44:38Well, The Human Voice, because-
00:44:40The Human Voice.
00:44:42The Human Voice, that was my very last performance ever.
00:44:45I think it will, I will never-
00:44:46You were very respectful with the text,
00:44:49I mean, with the words of Cocteau,
00:44:51because I couldn't be respectful.
00:44:53But I loved what you did with it.
00:44:56I absolutely adored, I adored what you did with it.
00:44:59I was laughing because I know it so well.
00:45:01To me, it was amazing.
00:45:02No, I converted it into a revenge story.
00:45:08But you, so you were faithful.
00:45:10No, Ivo told me that my director, he said to me,
00:45:13you make, you do your own version.
00:45:16So he gave me the play and I rewrote it.
00:45:20So not that extreme as you guys did.
00:45:22I wasn't allowed to do that.
00:45:23I did it too much.
00:45:24No, I understand.
00:45:25No, I tried to make it my own.
00:45:27But no, I remember very well during COVID,
00:45:29because the whole concept of the play was,
00:45:32according to Ivo, rear window.
00:45:33So I was at the highest floor of a big building in his mind.
00:45:37So I was playing behind the glass, one big window.
00:45:40And I played the whole thing.
00:45:41And then at the end, I jump out of the window.
00:45:43And so for COVID, we could, I could play
00:45:46because I was behind glass.
00:45:47And so I would play this during COVID the whole time.
00:45:49And then I remember so well, I went on and I felt,
00:45:52this is my very last performance ever.
00:45:54And I just wrote one friend.
00:45:56I said, I think this is my last thing on stage.
00:45:58And there was nobody there because it was all isolated.
00:46:00There was no flowers.
00:46:02Not that was the end.
00:46:02Talking alone.
00:46:04No, no, no.
00:46:04It's like a ghost.
00:46:05No, for me, that was interesting.
00:46:07Yes, to present a Tilda like a ghost talking
00:46:11because that was the beginning of using these earphones.
00:46:14Yes.
00:46:14Then you are talking like a crazy woman.
00:46:16Like a psychopath.
00:46:17And it's a psychopath.
00:46:19And also I wanted, I made a short
00:46:21because I felt really like I was debutant,
00:46:25like it was my first movie.
00:46:27So I could see, I mean, the interior or the place,
00:46:30but I could see also how it is built.
00:46:33And she's confined to that.
00:46:36But also see, I mean, the place is confined
00:46:39in a big sound stage.
00:46:42Studio, yeah.
00:46:42So it was very good to experiment for that.
00:46:45But also I couldn't respect, I mean, I respect the spirit.
00:46:49But at the moment when Cocteau wrote the play,
00:46:54it was the 30, the 1930, I think.
00:46:58So, I mean, I think it was impossible now
00:47:02to see contemporary women
00:47:04that they can be identified with that.
00:47:06Yes, I understand.
00:47:07So that's where the reason that I make it more contemporary
00:47:13and more active, more that,
00:47:15oh, not that I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm guilty.
00:47:18No, no, no, I'm curious.
00:47:20And what I want is to kill you.
00:47:23As I can't, I'm going to burn the house.
00:47:27Can you watch the smoke?
00:47:30This is how I am and how I feel.
00:47:32And I love how she walks out with the dog
00:47:34and they're companions and they survive.
00:47:37It's amazing.
00:47:38But just for people who don't understand
00:47:40what we're talking about.
00:47:40So this is a solo.
00:47:42Do you have a dog too?
00:47:43No, for us, it was all imagined.
00:47:45So I would be the dog.
00:47:46I would play the dog.
00:47:48I would become the dog.
00:47:49So I would be like, like, but the whole thing.
00:47:53So just to explain very quickly what it is,
00:47:55it's a solo piece written by Cocteau.
00:47:56It was a comment on the invention of the telephone.
00:47:59So it is all about, in France at that time,
00:48:02a lot of married men had a female lover, right?
00:48:06So this was, this woman is a female lover
00:48:08of this man that's going to get married.
00:48:09And he calls her for the very last time.
00:48:12And at that moment, phones were very new.
00:48:14So she was, of course, like,
00:48:15if I could only look in your eyes,
00:48:16like she's trying to make him come over, right?
00:48:19And she's trying to keep him on the phone
00:48:21because she knows when he hangs up,
00:48:23I don't have oxygen anymore and I will die.
00:48:25And she hangs herself on the phone cord.
00:48:28And so this is a very masochistic, you could say,
00:48:31anti-feminist, very, very a woman.
00:48:34And so in your version, it's much more strong.
00:48:36It's more liberated.
00:48:38It was much more fun for us too.
00:48:40Yeah, there's a lot of humor in it.
00:48:42And also, I didn't like the idea.
00:48:44I mean, for example, I saw, of course,
00:48:47when Rossellini did it with Anna Magnani.
00:48:51And I also saw one production
00:48:53in Broadway with Ingrid Bergman.
00:48:56Oh, wow.
00:48:58Yeah, and she was great.
00:49:00But I didn't like, I mean,
00:49:02just thinking about a movie, even a short one,
00:49:05of someone that is unique.
00:49:07I mean, with a telephone like this.
00:49:09No, I needed just to walk, to just to move with her.
00:49:13Yeah, so she has the ears.
00:49:14And that was very contemporary.
00:49:16But also, in a dramatic way,
00:49:18they were very interesting
00:49:20that it was a woman talking and talking
00:49:22and you don't know to whom.
00:49:24Because she's alone.
00:49:25I mean, with the dog, that also the dog is in,
00:49:28how do you say, duelo?
00:49:30Morning, like she is.
00:49:31So they were two.
00:49:34She completely identifies with the dog.
00:49:35Yes, abandoned by the same women.
00:49:38But you know that I was completely obsessed
00:49:41with the human voice because I am,
00:49:44I mean, the 1986 is the first time
00:49:48that I include part of the human voice
00:49:51in The Law of Desire.
00:49:53Oh, wow.
00:49:54And in The Law of Desire, it was Carmen Moura
00:49:57I put on a small part of the human voice
00:50:00because I was really obsessed at that moment.
00:50:03I did it in my own way.
00:50:04Why were you so obsessed with it?
00:50:06What is it of the human voice?
00:50:07I don't know why.
00:50:08I mean, with human voice,
00:50:09because I'd be proud
00:50:10because the first time that I saw it
00:50:12with Anna Magnani, I was very impressed.
00:50:15And then I remember that.
00:50:17So in Law of Desire, I put on a small part.
00:50:22But I really, I love it.
00:50:24And I love how Carmen Moura was the actress in there.
00:50:28So for the following movie,
00:50:30I thought to make just only the human voice,
00:50:35but as the human voice is a 30 minutes more or less play,
00:50:39I needed one hour more when I write.
00:50:43So I thought, oh my God, one hour.
00:50:45Then my idea was to take the character,
00:50:49waiting for the man, but take her 48 hours before.
00:50:54So she's crazy.
00:50:56She's trying to find him.
00:50:58She put the apartment on Airbnb or higher.
00:51:03And then once the apartment is open,
00:51:06many people come inside.
00:51:08And so she has to interact with them.
00:51:10And there is a moment when it was not necessary
00:51:13to have the conversation
00:51:14because she was very busy with the other desperate women.
00:51:18And that was how it was born,
00:51:20Women on the Edge of a Deadly Breakdown.
00:51:22That there is only left, if you remember,
00:51:25Carmen Moura with a baggage full of the things of men,
00:51:31crying and alone.
00:51:33But that is not the conversation.
00:51:35Right.
00:51:36The telephone conversation.
00:51:36Beautiful. I like that a lot.
00:51:38It's good when you have one idea
00:51:40and the idea disappear because,
00:51:42but it drives you to something
00:51:45that perhaps it was waiting for you.
00:51:47Yeah.
00:51:47So I was like upset.
00:51:49So with Tilda, I said, no, no,
00:51:51this time I'm going to be serious.
00:51:54But even in that situation, I couldn't be serious.
00:51:57No, you made it your own.
00:51:58In our version, I let the phone go after
00:52:02and she just is talking to herself basically.
00:52:04You know, and like you said, which I love,
00:52:06I always love to put the phone down and yeah.
00:52:09But it was, I love when you did that with Tilda.
00:52:12It kind of felt like a liberation to me
00:52:14because I felt quite locked up in the play for 15 years,
00:52:18playing it all over the world alone, touring China.
00:52:21It was pretty intense.
00:52:22Yeah.
00:52:22It's like being in prison.
00:52:25In a little bit.
00:52:26Of a play.
00:52:26And literally being in a glass cage.
00:52:29But it was interesting how it resonated
00:52:31all over the world with people.
00:52:32I think it's the topic of addictive love,
00:52:36addictive romantic love that is so universal.
00:52:39Yeah.
00:52:39And everyone has experienced that
00:52:41even when they are very young or old
00:52:43or it doesn't matter
00:52:44or where they are in which country.
00:52:46And that is a topic that interests me a lot.
00:52:48I mean, me too.
00:52:49And I love this kind of characters
00:52:51that they are crazy.
00:52:52Yeah.
00:52:52Of someone.
00:52:53Yeah.
00:52:53And do everything.
00:52:55To see what they do.
00:52:56And in this case, I think that women,
00:53:00you are much more active like men
00:53:03because I remember in the 80s
00:53:05that they asked me, the journalists,
00:53:08do you conceive, I mean,
00:53:09men are the birds of a nebulous breakdown?
00:53:12I mean, of course.
00:53:13I mean, we suffer when we are abandoned
00:53:16and we are very sad, but we are very boring, very dull.
00:53:20I mean, a female, I mean, a woman goes to the street,
00:53:25try to find who is the other one,
00:53:27try to find her.
00:53:28I mean, it's much more as a dramatic subject.
00:53:32It is much more interesting if you do it
00:53:35with a woman than with a man.
00:53:37Men, we are very dull.
00:53:39And also with no conscience of being ridiculous,
00:53:44which is very important.
00:53:46So how did the end of The Room Next Door
00:53:49came to you?
00:53:50Did that change?
00:53:51Was it over there?
00:53:52At the beginning, I thought that the ending,
00:53:55it was the death.
00:53:56But immediately during the script,
00:53:58I think it was very important
00:54:01just to talk about the financial problems,
00:54:03just to take Ingrid on
00:54:06because you have to need a conversation
00:54:09with the policeman
00:54:10and the policeman should be the ugly man.
00:54:14So you could see that the character of Julian
00:54:17changed completely.
00:54:18It was like Martha,
00:54:21it gives her a kind of transference.
00:54:24In a way, Julian behaved like Martha
00:54:27with this kind of strength.
00:54:29But I mean, the really ending,
00:54:31it was when Michelle, the daughter of Martha,
00:54:35came to the house in the woods.
00:54:38And it was curious because
00:54:40I don't believe in reincarnation,
00:54:42but it was a kind of reincarnation
00:54:44in the character of Ingrid
00:54:47because Michelle is full of questions to ask.
00:54:52And for once, Ingrid, Julian Moore,
00:54:56could answer all that question of the daughter
00:55:00that the mother couldn't
00:55:02because their relationship was awful.
00:55:04So I wanted the two of them on the lounger.
00:55:08But at the beginning,
00:55:10well, Ingrid, it was very moved
00:55:12because Michelle is dressed
00:55:15with the mother pyjama
00:55:18and also is performed by the same actress.
00:55:22So it's very much alike.
00:55:23Yeah, because Tilda plays her daughter as well.
00:55:25Yeah, and then she was very,
00:55:28and she said, well, your mother also,
00:55:30they wake up at dawn and came here
00:55:32just to listen to the birds.
00:55:33And what I thought is just to leave them
00:55:36and to see in the sky,
00:55:40a lot of birds like greeting them.
00:55:43I mean, moving, it was a way to say,
00:55:46oh, hello, I'm here for Martha.
00:55:49But really, really at the end,
00:55:50I mean, the day before shooting the end,
00:55:53I thought that in the movie,
00:55:54so important, the snow.
00:55:57I mean, it is snowing at the cemeteries,
00:55:59falling in many places,
00:56:01falling upon the living and the dead,
00:56:04which is a beautiful ending.
00:56:06Beautiful.
00:56:06Then I wanted that Ingrid completely like,
00:56:10I mean, being herself,
00:56:12but being also Martha.
00:56:14It finished the movie,
00:56:15just talking about snowing.
00:56:19But also, I mean, in my mind,
00:56:20I think that the spectator doesn't see that,
00:56:22but they don't need it.
00:56:24I mean, in my mind,
00:56:25it was like Martha was really reincarnated
00:56:28in the snow.
00:56:30So it was like Martha is snowing
00:56:34on the body of Michelle and on her friend.
00:56:38Beautiful.
00:56:39It's so beautiful.
00:56:40And they did it wonderful.
00:56:41So I was very moved.
00:56:42Sometimes I cry.
00:56:43Can you believe it?
00:56:44Did you cry in your movie?
00:56:46No, you don't.
00:56:47No, but I do.
00:56:49Also, when Nicole was acting sometimes,
00:56:51it moved me a lot.
00:56:52I would not show it, of course,
00:56:54but I would be behind the money.
00:56:55I would be like, oh.
00:56:56I think it's awful that one director
00:56:58who is crying in one shooting.
00:57:00I mean, there was one moment
00:57:02when I had to hide myself in the restroom.
00:57:07Yes, yes.
00:57:08Because I think that people don't respect you.
00:57:11No, of course.
00:57:12And you don't want to show.
00:57:13It can look a little bit vain.
00:57:16I mean, you mean the power.
00:57:17You mean the one that's saying.
00:57:18Yeah, you have to be the father and the mother.
00:57:20Yes, the father, the mother, the lover.
00:57:22Yes, you don't want to show your emotion.
00:57:24That's true.
00:57:25The director is everything,
00:57:28basically for the actors.
00:57:29Yes.
00:57:30Everything.
00:57:31The father, the mother, the friend, the brother.
00:57:34Yes.
00:57:35And also the enemy.
00:57:37Yes, of course.
00:57:38And this is what the director is.
00:57:40It's very well said.
00:57:41It's very well said.
00:57:42Monsters.
00:57:43Yeah, but sometimes they are so,
00:57:45what they're doing is so moving.
00:57:46And of course, especially the kind of actors
00:57:48you've always worked with
00:57:50and like me working with Nicole and Antonio,
00:57:51that sometimes I was so impressed by their performance
00:57:54that, yeah, it does kind of make you tear up.
00:57:57It's just, especially because it's live.
00:57:59It's happening in front of you.
00:58:01So it can be very moving and beautiful to watch.
00:58:04But I love what you're saying
00:58:06about the ending of your movie.
00:58:07And I think that is also why,
00:58:08because Tilda comes back,
00:58:10even though she is now the daughter,
00:58:11it kind of also, it leaves you with such hope.
00:58:14Again, that was my biggest takeaway,
00:58:16just a little bit closer to death
00:58:18when I watched your movie
00:58:20than being just like, oh God.
00:58:22Me too, because I mean,
00:58:23basically all the sequences we shoot
00:58:27in the house, in the forest,
00:58:29I mean, they were Tilda Swinton, Julianne Moore,
00:58:32me, but also the death was there.
00:58:35Like part of our conversation.
00:58:37Like a character.
00:58:38Yes, I felt the presence of death very clearly.
00:58:42Yes.
00:58:42And the character and Julianne and me,
00:58:46we were like day by day accustomed to that presence.
00:58:49Yes, and I think for me,
00:58:51sometimes making movies, but also theater
00:58:53can be almost like a psychosomatic act
00:58:55where it feels like a ritual,
00:58:56where you're also sort of like provoking these energies
00:58:59or these, you know, to come to you.
00:59:01And that is why it can be very thrilling
00:59:03and also scary sometimes a little bit
00:59:05to witness these kinds of like energies
00:59:07and when everybody starts to reenact situations.
00:59:10And that is also why it can be moving
00:59:12and really come straight into your heart.
00:59:13But I loved your ending.
00:59:15I really, I walked away from that movie feeling better.
00:59:18Thank you so much.
00:59:19What is your movie releasing here?
00:59:21On Christmas day.
00:59:22On Christmas day, it's good.
00:59:24Which is, yeah, a little bit ironic.
00:59:27Do you know anything about Spain?
00:59:28No, but I will look it up and send it
00:59:30with my first movie to you in a little package.
00:59:34But the ending of my movie came,
00:59:36it changed also a little bit.
00:59:38I think the most important thing that I always had in my head
00:59:40was everything you were saying really
00:59:43is that I wanted all the characters to be ambiguous.
00:59:46I think normally in a sexual thriller in the 90s,
00:59:48somebody has to die.
00:59:50If a woman would cheat, she would have to be punished.
00:59:53You know, there's a villain and a good person.
00:59:56And for me, it was very important
00:59:57that all four characters had dark sides
01:00:01and beautiful sides, that they were all devils and angels.
01:00:03And also it's more interesting to talk about the darker sides.
01:00:06Yes, and we are all human.
01:00:08And also it's very important not to punish anyone
01:00:12because then Manique, I think, is the worst.
01:00:15Yes.
01:00:16If you write a story.
01:00:18I mean, you have it very clear.
01:00:20So congratulations.
01:00:22It was a pleasure to talk to you.
01:00:24And you promised me to send me your first movie.
01:00:28I will.
01:00:29I promise you.
01:00:30Thank you so much for talking to me.
01:00:32I'm very honored.
01:00:33It was a big pleasure.