Two years ago, Finland was a non-aligned, militarily neutral country.
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00:00Finland is a border with Russia of over 1,300 kilometers, the largest in NATO territory.
00:13It's frequently targeted by Russia through cyber and hybrid war, including the sabotaging
00:19of undersea cables.
00:20In response, Finland is reconsidering its policy shift when it comes to EU defense spending
00:25and is even considering defense bonds.
00:28For the Europe Conversation, I catch up with Heikki Otto, MP for Lapland and chair of the
00:33Grand Committee of the Finnish Parliament.
00:38So Heikki Otto, chair of the Grand Committee here in Helsinki, thanks very much for joining
00:43us on the Europe Conversation.
00:44Well, I want to start off with Finland and the discussions that are happening in the
00:51EU at the moment and over the next few months around defense spending.
00:55We've heard, for example, Mark Rutte, the Secretary General of NATO, saying Europe needs
01:00to pay more.
01:01We know that Donald Trump's main message is Europe needs to pay more.
01:06And we hear that Finland might be open to the issue of defense bonds.
01:12We will assist Ukraine and we will use all the necessary means.
01:17But of course, I would like to turn the discussion towards how we make Russia pay.
01:24We have hundreds of billions of frozen Russian assets in Europe.
01:30And of course, we have to find a legal framework to use those to support Ukraine now during
01:38the war, but also to rebuild the country.
01:43It cannot be the way that Russians can come and kill and rape, destroy homes and schools
01:50and hospitals, and then they wouldn't have to pay for what they have done.
01:56Of course, the European Union and the West needs to find the legal framework to use the
02:02frozen Russian assets to pay.
02:05But otherwise, Finland has not closed any option to aid Ukraine because we have to give
02:14the message to the front lines that we do all the necessary means to support Ukraine.
02:21Because so far, defense bonds have been off the table because countries like Germany and
02:25others are not supporting it.
02:27So can I just ask you, Finnish position on this?
02:30As I mentioned, we don't close any option away at the moment because our message to
02:36the Ukrainians fighting for their lives and fighting for our freedom also is that we do
02:42everything in our powers to aid them to win their struggle against the evil that is threatening
02:51the peace and stability in Europe.
02:55What comes to this kind of bond question, that's more of a technical at the moment,
03:01I would say.
03:02Because it doesn't make a significant shift from Finnish policy when it comes to extra
03:06EU spending.
03:07I suppose that's because of the nature of the threat.
03:10Nobody in Europe understands that this is really an existential issue for not only Finland
03:16and the countries neighboring Russia, but the whole of Europe and for the whole free
03:21world.
03:22You've got a particularly large border with Russia, over 1,300 kilometers.
03:27We've heard that there is hybrid war taking place here from Russia.
03:32Also, there is the concerns around the Russian Shadow Fleet, there's GPS jamming.
03:37Can you talk us through some of what's been happening?
03:40Well, Finland is very well prepared.
03:44We have been preparing for this kind of situations for decades.
03:49I can say for 80 years now.
03:52And my message to other Europeans is that this hybrid war that is ongoing and takes
03:58shapes like cyber attacks, but also different sabotage and using irregular migration to
04:06pressure governments, it's not aimed only towards Finland or the neighboring countries,
04:14but Russia is trying to destabilize the whole of Europe.
04:18So the whole Europe has to take this hybrid war seriously.
04:23And because Russia cannot pressure us by threatening in the way of conventional war, because we
04:30are all members of NATO, the hybrid war is the mean they use to threaten us.
04:37What is the Finnish position on Ukraine joining NATO as part of a negotiation where NATO would
04:44give Article 5 protections for the unoccupied territories at least?
04:48Well, of course, Ukraine must have, and the people of Ukraine must have the possibility
04:54to choose for their own future.
04:56And if they are willing to join NATO, I believe that NATO has to live by its own standards
05:03and able all the free European nations to join.
05:07So of course, Ukraine needs to have this path.
05:11But first, NATO and us as NATO countries need to able Ukraine to win this war, that they
05:19can have peace in their own country, and that they have this integrity of their international
05:25recognized border.
05:27Donald Tusk and Emmanuel Macron are discussing potentially sending 40,000 troops, peacekeeping
05:33troops into Ukraine after the war.
05:36Is that something that Finland would support, given how, as you mentioned, well-protected
05:42but also well-trained people are or troops and conscripts are here?
05:46Well, Finland has a history of being almost a superpower in peacekeeping, and we have
05:54taken part in nearly all the major UN operations.
06:01And it's interesting to see if this kind of operation has UN backing, or would it be only
06:07EU operation.
06:09But first, we need to have the deal.
06:12But what I say to all the Europeans is that we cannot close any option how to able Ukraine
06:21to win the war, find peace in Ukrainian terms.
06:25And after that, of course, we have to support the peace in all the necessary ways.
06:32And just moving on to Syria, what do you think the implications of the fall of Assad are
06:36for Russia in the region?
06:38Well, of course, that was very humiliating for Putin.
06:41We know that some of the generals that have been doing poorly, and of course, we are happy
06:47that Russian generals are generally doing very poorly, have been moved from Ukrainian
06:53front to Syria, and now they were totally humiliated by the rebels.
06:59So of course, at the moment, we are happy for the Syrian people that they at least have
07:04the possibility to start a democratic new era for their nation.
07:12But of course, at the same time, we have to be realistic that we've already heard some
07:16voices that are talking about the type of government they have in Afghanistan.
07:23And that's, of course, worrying.
07:25Before Assad fell, some countries, Georgia, Melania, Italy, Denmark, Hungary, were considering
07:32normalization with Assad in order to send Syrians back to Syria, even though we knew
07:38that there was an industrial scale of torture, of murder, of massacre by Assad and his regime
07:46for the last few decades.
07:47Is that, I suppose, a warning cry that European policy on asylum is getting too hardline and
07:56not empathetic enough?
07:58Well, that's at the moment something we don't need to worry about because the rebels were
08:02successful and Assad is now in Moscow.
08:06But of course, we as West should help now Ukraine, I mean, Ukraine foremost, but Syria
08:16also to build up a democratic society.
08:19And then, of course, Syrian people are free then to choose their own future.
08:24But has Finland stopped anyway asylum processing for Syrians for the moment?
08:29But do you think there should be now a push or encouragement to send Syrians back?
08:35Or is it too early to say, given that you mentioned this talk about an Afghanistan-type
08:41rule in Syria?
08:42Well, I would say it's too early to say what happens.
08:45We as a EU and West should help the interim government in Syria to be able to establish
08:55democratic and rules-based society, rule of law, and the basic human rights and freedoms
09:03for the people.
09:04And I believe after that, there will be, of course, Syrians traveling back to their home
09:10country.
09:12But I hope that Syria will develop to be a society where Syrians are in the future free
09:17to move to Europe as well if they so choose.
09:22So I really hope that this could be a turning point for the Middle East to start to build
09:31up more democratic societies there.
09:33What do you say to countries like Ireland and Austria and Malta, who are not members
09:37of NATO, call themselves neutral, and they don't give any support when it comes to the
09:43security of the European Union or the EU as a whole?
09:47Well, the first priority is, of course, to take care of everybody's own defense.
09:54And after that, the second most important priority is to support Ukraine.
10:00And I believe all the countries you mentioned have been supporting Ukraine in the ways that
10:05have been possible for them.
10:07And if they only could somehow intensify the support, I believe the West together, we will
10:14succeed to help Ukraine to win this horrible war.
10:18And just on Hungary and Slovakia, countries that are actively hostile to supporting Ukraine,
10:23what do you say to them?
10:25Well, it's a pity.
10:26And I believe countries that have had in their past issues with the Russia and Soviet Union
10:34should all remember what the Russians and Soviets have been capable of doing and understand
10:41that we don't want to see that to happen to anybody.
10:44We can see with our own eyes that it's happening at the Ukraine this very moment.
10:49Just final question, because you're MP for Lapland, which is the busiest time of year
10:53for you.
10:54Santa is leaving from Lapland to travel around the world.
10:58But it's also a place which held NATO's largest ever artillery exercise, and that's within
11:04the year of Finland joining NATO, a sign of the times.
11:08Well, that's how it is.
11:10And as already mentioned, if we wish for peace, we have to prepare for war.
11:16So this is the situation we have at the moment in my hometown in Rovaniemi at the Arctic Circle,
11:22that there are thousands and thousands of people around the world coming to meet Santa
11:26Claus.
11:27And I can see the bright eyes of the children, how happy they are when they meet Santa.
11:32And at the same time, we have thousands of military personnel from all over Europe and
11:37also North America coming for the exercise to build a peaceful future.
11:42Okay.
11:43Well, Heike Otto, chairman of the Grand Committee here at the Parliament in Helsinki in Finland,
11:49thank you very much for joining us on the Europe Conversation, and happy Christmas to you.
11:53Well, thank you, and happy Christmas to everybody.