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00:00Hello again, and for the last time today, I'm Zach, nice to see you again.
00:12We're going to be talking about Hard Truths, the latest film from British filmmaker Mike
00:16Lee.
00:17So please welcome my guests, actor Marianne Jean-Baptiste, thank you.
00:30Before we start, we've got a clip from the film, thanks.
00:32Look at you, fix your face, you're dealing with the public, handling people's food.
00:44Stop, please.
00:45Oh, you can pipe down and all stand in there like an ostrich.
00:51People can't stand them, cheerful, grinning people.
00:57Mama, I'll see you in a bit.
01:01Where do you think you're going?
01:02For a walk.
01:03People are going to accuse you of loitering with intent.
01:07Your sister call me.
01:10Who?
01:11Chantelle.
01:12I know who my sister is, thank you very much.
01:14When are you going to settle down?
01:15Why, you have somebody for me?
01:16Yes, Jesus.
01:17At least he was a single man.
01:21Do you want to come to the flat on Sunday?
01:26The girls would like to see you.
01:31You know I've got healthy shoes.
01:33I might spend the day lying in bed.
01:37She makes everything about her.
01:40She's rude, man.
01:41I've been harassed by people all day.
01:44I'm sick to death of it.
01:47I just want it to all stop.
01:54Why are you so angry?
01:55Why can't you enjoy life?
01:56I don't know.
01:57You worry me, you know.
01:58Pansy, what's going on?
01:59I'm so lonely.
02:00What are we gonna do about it?
02:22I don't understand you.
02:25But I love you.
02:30and her over there with that fat baby,
02:33parading it around in the little outfit,
02:35not dressed for the weather, nah, with pockets.
02:38What's a baby got pockets for?
02:40What's it gonna keep in its pocket?
02:47-.
02:50So good, so good.
02:54Marianne, this process that you and Mike have discussed,
02:57the way you work since the film has been,
03:00since the film debuted is still quite a mystery to me.
03:02So you two, you talk and then decide to make a film
03:06about a sort of unspecified topic
03:09of about an unspecified character, is that right?
03:12Yeah, ish.
03:15I mean, the initial conversation is usually,
03:18do you wanna do, should we work together again?
03:21I don't know what it's gonna be about.
03:23I don't know what you'll be playing in it,
03:25but we'll have a great time.
03:27So that's the initial conversation.
03:28And then we get together.
03:32He's always asked that you come in with a list of people
03:35that you know, real people.
03:37And you go through that list
03:38and it gets smaller and smaller and smaller
03:40until you land on a few people.
03:44And then you start creating a whole new character
03:47inspired by little bits and pieces
03:50and characteristics of that person
03:53from their first memory
03:54to the age they're gonna be playing in the film.
03:57And all of the characters in the film
04:00are created in that way
04:02by really just doing very, very in-depth work
04:06on creating them.
04:08It's so unique.
04:09So like, I'm gonna ask you again,
04:10so like you, so you're sitting down together
04:13and you're like, I know this person and this person.
04:16Are you trying to figure out what's interesting about them
04:18or are you just going out there talking like,
04:20I know this person, they do this, they do that?
04:23I mean, everyone's interesting.
04:26There's something interesting about everyone.
04:28You don't even have to know them that well.
04:30It could be somebody in your bakery, your local bakery.
04:33You go in to get your bagel or whatever every morning
04:37and there's this woman
04:38and there's just something about her,
04:39the way that she does everything so meticulously
04:42and da-da-da-da-da.
04:43And you all go, okay, we'll talk about that one.
04:46And then you go on to the next one.
04:49And are you also like writing,
04:51so you're creating these characters,
04:52are you writing lines also
04:53or do you talk about these things
04:55and then Mike comes back with lines?
04:56No, we improvise.
04:58So what happens is it's improvisation
05:01that starts creating the dialogue
05:03but it's also about creating the world.
05:06So for example, I had to find the school in London
05:11that Pansy went to, I'd have to find the house
05:14so that you start building a parallel universe
05:17for those characters but in finite detail.
05:21So we created the school, the friends at school,
05:27their neighbours, their grandparents, aunts,
05:30uncles, mother.
05:32Even though you don't see them in the film,
05:34they're what make up the character and their experiences.
05:38So when you actually go to improvise,
05:41there's so much information in your brain
05:45that you're able to do it.
05:47And so if you're not getting a standard script
05:49of like, oh, you're doing this, you're doing that,
05:52this is kind of an odd question
05:53but do you know that you're the lead of the film?
05:55No, I mean the first, listen,
05:58I knew he wasn't gonna fly me over from Los Angeles
06:01to go and work in London to do two scenes, I knew that.
06:05But to the extent it was her story,
06:09I was kind of like, could have been about a hairdresser
06:13with a very difficult sister.
06:15Could have been about a plumber
06:16who wasn't getting on with his wife.
06:19So you don't know until you actually see the film
06:23at the end because you don't know what's happening
06:25in the scenes that you're not in.
06:28So it's very much like life.
06:30I don't know what you're gonna do
06:31when you leave the stage, for example.
06:35And as you can see in the clip, Patsy, your character,
06:37she's a very explosive character
06:39but with that comes, for you,
06:42you have to sort of work out a metric, I'm assuming,
06:45where you can sort of control the pain that she has
06:48so that the character doesn't maybe become too cartoonish
06:51or becomes sort of a gimmick.
06:53So I wondered, did you have markers in your mind,
06:56like, oh, this is something that she might snap out
06:59or this is something she might be upset about?
07:01Did you have sort of like a scale?
07:03Well, the thing is, it's all about creating that character.
07:06So it's almost like programming a robot
07:10to behave in a particular way.
07:11And depending on what you put in or take out,
07:15you know that there's a 99.9% chance
07:20that they're gonna act in that way.
07:21But that's mainly Mike's job
07:23to sort of manage the performances in a way.
07:27But all that's going on in Pansy's head
07:30when she's doing things are her thoughts.
07:33I think the clever stuff comes with Mike
07:36having worked with all the other characters
07:38knowing what's gonna set her off or what's not.
07:42But I mean, just life sets Pansy off, you know?
07:48I think one of the things that makes this film
07:49so relatable also is how authentic it is.
07:52And there's like a very distinct
07:54sort of West Indian-ness in the film.
07:56And like, for example,
07:58like if somebody else is making this film,
08:00I could imagine there just being random parts
08:02where you just hear like Bob Marley playing
08:03in the background or something like that.
08:06I'm not saying that Mike isn't like very hip,
08:08but I wondered, where did that come from?
08:10Was that you guys on set sort of saying,
08:12this is how something might work?
08:13Yeah, I mean, it's very, very collaborative.
08:16It's a collaborative process and he wants the truth
08:21and it to be as truthful as possible.
08:24So in that, he just listened to us.
08:27So when we're talking about certain things,
08:29certain cultural things, what they would eat,
08:32what Sunday dinner would look like in the household,
08:35you know, he's just all ears.
08:39And we collaborate not only with Mike,
08:41but with the costume and makeup and production design.
08:45So, you know, we sit down and talk to them
08:48about what their houses would look like.
08:52And because it is so collaborative,
08:53I'm assuming, is it a longer process
08:56than it would usually be when you work on a film?
08:59Well, it was a short process for him
09:01because when I did Secrets and Lies, for example,
09:05the process, the rehearsal process was six months
09:09for Hard Truths, it was three and a half months.
09:14You know, and at the end of that, we were like,
09:16oh my God, I need more time.
09:19And with that sort of rehearsal process,
09:23does that change the way that you work?
09:26Because I guess maybe there's some stamina involved there.
09:28Does that change how you prepare for things?
09:32Listen, I try and prepare as much as I can for a regular job.
09:35Do you know what I mean?
09:36If I've got two weeks, a month or whatever,
09:39I always try and do my research
09:41and create stuff about the character
09:43that's not necessarily on the page.
09:46But it's a luxury to work in that way,
09:49to have that amount of time
09:51when you can really do some detailed work, for sure.
09:56You mentioned Secrets and Lies there as your first film
09:58with Mike, which you were Oscar nominated for.
10:01I think one of the things about that film
10:04that's so great at the time and now,
10:06it's become sort of so synonymous
10:09with a specific time in Britain.
10:10It was 30 years ago and it was,
10:14I think Tony Blair was just about to be elected
10:16around that time and you had loads of artists
10:17like Steve McQueen who were becoming really popular.
10:20So it became sort of part of an art movement
10:24that became synonymous with a certain type
10:26of cosmopolitanism in the UK.
10:29Maybe similar to what people felt here
10:31when Obama's first term was about to happen.
10:34And I wondered, how do you think Britain's changed
10:37in that time and do you think that's reflected
10:40in this film at all?
10:42Ooh, that's a difficult question
10:44because I haven't lived in England for 21 years.
10:47So, you know, yeah, that's tough for me, Zach.
10:52I wouldn't wanna sort of speak on it in that way.
10:59Gosh, everything's changed though, hasn't it?
11:03I mean, I think something like Hard Truths
11:05has definitely come out of Mike wanting to explore further
11:11the human condition and relationships and family.
11:15A lot of people have said, oh, is it because of the pandemic?
11:18And he's like, no, it's not.
11:19It's just these sort of issues existed before
11:23and they'll probably exist after.
11:25It's about communication or lack thereof.
11:28It's about misunderstandings, grudges that we hold,
11:33that we're not quite sure why we're holding them anymore,
11:36but we just continue.
11:38Yeah.
11:40And I guess another really important part,
11:43someone who's been really important to Mike's work
11:46who passed recently is Dick Pope, great cinematographer.
11:49I wanted to ask, what do you think made his work so potent,
11:53working with him as a DOP
11:54and having such a collaborative way of working?
11:58What was unique?
11:59I think what was unique is he really served the characters.
12:03He was a fantastic storyteller.
12:06And I think that some people
12:08don't necessarily view DPs in that way as being,
12:12I mean, they're almost the architect,
12:14do you know what I mean?
12:15That's kind of like designing and telling us where to look
12:18and how to perceive the character that we're looking at.
12:21And I think for him to be, what made him so great
12:25was he was so collaborative.
12:28He was so encouraging.
12:29He made you feel worthy to be looked at,
12:33not in a vain way, but in a way of sort of,
12:39I want to look at this,
12:40you're doing something that I want to focus on.
12:45And your son in this film, he's great.
12:49He's adorable, is what he is.
12:52I read that this was his first feature,
12:55his wonderful performance.
12:57If you could talk a little bit
12:58about building that relationship with him,
12:59because it's so unique and authentic.
13:02And he has to take a lot.
13:03You have to give him a lot of heat in the film.
13:07It was actually quite difficult
13:09because, as I said, he's adorable.
13:12And so, any time we weren't in character
13:15or working together, I'd be squeezing his cheeks
13:18or biting him or, you know,
13:24or saying, who are you texting right now?
13:27I harassed him.
13:28And we'd always be hugging and stuff like that.
13:31And to have to just be so distant with him
13:35was quite hard, but he's brilliant.
13:38And he is the funniest, bubbliest,
13:42talkative human being that I know.
13:45And so, yeah, his performance was great, yeah.
13:49Yeah, he's really, really great.
13:51With this film, I guess it made me feel like
13:54you and Mike are kind of, maybe this isn't true,
13:57but it feels like you've started maybe a trilogy here
14:01of really great character performances.
14:02And I wondered if you thought,
14:04you guys have spoken about or thought about that,
14:06and if you thought that you might come back for a third.
14:09Oh, no, we haven't spoken about that.
14:11I mean, it's like when you ask a woman,
14:13you know, she's just had a baby,
14:14and you say, are you gonna have another one?
14:16And she's like, are you kidding?
14:22Would you like to, though?
14:24Oh.
14:28Yeah, yeah, I would.
14:30Yeah, we'd just have to wean this one first,
14:34you know, get them potty trained,
14:35and then we'll jump back in, hopefully.
14:40At the end of a process like Hard Truths,
14:42does it take, how do you decompress
14:45from really stepping in and steeping in
14:47to sort of the creative process for so long and so intently?
14:51How do you sort of work that out of you
14:53to get on with your life?
14:55In this case, it was a bit tricky
14:57because it was building a very,
15:00very precise thought process for her.
15:03So her thoughts would occasionally pop up in my head
15:07about people or things that I'd seen,
15:10and I'd have to kind of tell her to shut up.
15:14But yeah, it leaves you feeling very full,
15:20but wanting a break, needing a break,
15:22needing to sort of kind of digest
15:27what it is that you've actually just been through physically.
15:30You know, my body was her body.
15:33I loaned it to her for a while.
15:35So it was about trying to get back into shape
15:37and do certain things.
15:41And as I said, the mental, the mental toll that it takes,
15:44because she goes on quite an emotional journey.
15:47It's like, you know, it's a lot.
15:51We're out of time.
15:52Thank you guys for joining us.
15:53And please.