Ghazal singer Jagjit Singh and lyricist Gulzar created many popular songs together. In the promotion of their album Koi Baat Chale, they discussed ghazals, film songs, and the rise of English words in songs. Enjoy their insightful conversation in the latest Lehren podcast.
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00:00Like flowers, open your lips sometimes, speak in the language of fragrance sometimes, speak in the language of fragrance sometimes.
00:16Violin is not our instrument.
00:18Violin is not our Indian instrument.
00:21But it has been adopted in Indian music so much that it is considered an Indian instrument today.
00:28A human being is a bubble of water.
00:30It drowns, it rises.
00:32Neither the sea was able to remove it, nor history was able to finish it or erase it.
00:38What did we give to Ghalib?
00:40We got it from Ghalib.
00:42We got it from Ghalib.
00:43What did we have to give to Ghalib?
00:44We have to give him what we are capable of.
00:46I have done it exactly what you are doing it to me.
00:49You are speaking in English.
00:51So that's the language of your generation.
00:53When he puts all the dialogues in English and more than half of the films are in English,
00:59then how will I separate the songs?
01:07After so many years, both of you have come together.
01:10What would you like to say to each other?
01:12We would like to say that at least something is going on.
01:17Why?
01:18Mr. Gulzar, 7 years is a very long time.
01:22We missed those Ghazals after Manasim.
01:24After 7 years, did you feel the need to work together again?
01:29If you consider a year as a day, then it is just a matter of a week.
01:33It is just a matter of a week.
01:36And secondly, there was no such deadline which I am sharing with him.
01:42There was no fixed release date.
01:46When it is ready, it will come to the market.
01:50Because creative work takes time.
01:53We have heard that you have used different instruments.
01:57To make the Ghazals contemporary, so that more people can listen to it.
02:02What would you like to say about the music?
02:05We have to use modern sound to reach the modern audience.
02:08Today's kids know the sound of saxophone, but they don't know the sound of sarangi.
02:13They don't know the sound of harmonium.
02:16They know the sound of accordion.
02:19So there is no harm in using different instruments.
02:23The sound is the same.
02:25We use the same notes.
02:27The way of playing is different.
02:31That's why it makes a different sound.
02:33If we make them play Indian instruments, they will sound like Indians.
02:37Violin is not our instrument.
02:40Violin is not the instrument of India.
02:42But it has been adopted in the music of India.
02:45And it has become popular.
02:47Today it is considered the instrument of India.
02:50When you narrate the lyrics, you lead into a Ghazal.
02:55You give a beautiful introduction to the Ghazal.
02:59You give a link.
03:01How much does it help to bring the audience closer to the Ghazal?
03:07I think it is a matter of showing them the way.
03:09You hold their hand and take them to the door.
03:12This is where the Ghazal starts.
03:14And after that...
03:16I hold their fingers and take them to Jigjit through the lyrics.
03:23They are fans of Jigjit.
03:25They are admirers of Jigjit.
03:26They listen to it.
03:27Can you tell us about the words that you started with?
03:33Man is a bubble of water.
03:35I don't remember all the words.
03:37But I think that man is a bubble of water.
03:40It drowns and rises.
03:42The sea can't wash it away.
03:44History can't erase it.
03:50It is a matter of a human being.
03:52A bubble is a human being.
03:54It doesn't end.
03:55A bubble is life.
03:56It doesn't end.
03:58It doesn't end with history, history, time, or the sea.
04:03It drowns and rises.
04:05Man is a bubble of water.
04:07Which is your favourite Ghazal in Sahibhut?
04:12The way you look at me.
04:14I sit next to him and get scared.
04:17That is my favourite Ghazal.
04:19He has sung it very well.
04:21Muzaffar sahib, you said that Ghazals can be about tears, loneliness.
04:29Is this your philosophy to take on life?
04:33Yes, what I have said are my own comments.
04:37It is my own observation, experience, and experience.
04:42I didn't say anything without feeling it.
04:44I didn't say it for no reason.
04:47It is my own feeling.
04:49I don't know why we associate Ghazals with sadness.
04:58It is not necessary that it is about sorrow, pain, and loneliness.
05:02Ghazals say all kinds of things.
05:04Especially modern Ghazals, which we have known for 40-50 years.
05:10It is not that we have taken any step.
05:14Ghazals talk about the present, the situation, and the society.
05:19They talk about everything.
05:22I think, in my own humble way, I have taken a step forward.
05:30I often use the imagery of the cosmos.
05:35Which I have used for the first time in Ghazals.
05:38Or, I have heard it in Ghazals.
05:41It is not that no one has said it before.
05:43It is found everywhere.
05:45Today's Ghazal has become very wide.
05:47It covers all kinds of subjects.
05:49I have recorded many Ghazals before.
05:51Like, I am neither a Hindu nor a Muslim.
05:53Let me live.
05:54My Imam is my friend. Let me live.
05:56It is a political Ghazal.
05:58And, there is a Ghazal about people who run away from their village to the city.
06:07Now, I see it in Ration.
06:09Although, Ration is an English word.
06:12But, it has been created in the Indian language.
06:16Now, I see it in Ration.
06:18I am punished for leaving my fields.
06:20Wow!
06:22Like, I was talking about the cosmos.
06:24And, the cosmos is not that I have started it.
06:27It is with our Ustads.
06:29The sky is with us day and night.
06:32Something will happen.
06:34The country is from where the heart rises.
06:37The Ameer has said that the sky is with us day and night.
06:43Yes.
06:44So, it is not that it was not there before.
06:47But, it is our psyche.
06:52Sadness and tragedy stay for a long time.
06:57Yes, there was a period when Ghazal was related only to alcohol.
07:03Or, it was related only to washing.
07:06That time has passed.
07:08The canvas of Ghazal is very wide.
07:25I have done it exactly what you are doing it to me.
07:28You are speaking in English.
07:29So, that's the language of your generation.
07:31When all the dialogues are in English,
07:35and more than half of the films are in English,
07:37then how will I separate the songs?
07:39I have to come in with the language of the character.
07:42In this album also, you have used the word English.
07:45Yes.
07:46Sketch.
07:47Yes.
07:48In that, where you are sitting on my table,
07:53you have made a sketch on the packet of cigarettes.
07:56Now, if you call the sketch Khaka, then you won't understand.
08:00Right?
08:01So, you understand the sketch.
08:03The language of every era changes.
08:05No language is static.
08:07It is a living language.
08:09Static is the language that becomes classical.
08:12Like, I will say it has become Latin or Sanskrit.
08:16But, the living language and the language of common speech,
08:21it will always remain, remain and change.
08:25Urdu is not the same as it was 50 years ago.
08:29And Hindi is not the same as it was 50 years ago.
08:32Neither here, nor there, nor in India, nor in Pakistan,
08:35the Urdu there has also changed.
08:37Our Urdu has also changed.
08:39So, the language keeps on growing.
08:43Mr. Dubey, when we listened to the rest of the verses,
08:48after that, when you came with us,
08:50how different is the music setting of this
08:52and the way of singing in general?
08:55Every verse has its own thought process.
08:59A different tune is made in it.
09:01Its approach is different.
09:04The arrangement has to be different.
09:06Otherwise, it will sound like the same tune.
09:08But, what was your aim this time?
09:11To reach people with the verses,
09:13so that people can understand, to contemporarize?
09:16No, first, we should be able to understand.
09:19First, I will be able to understand, even if the verse comes.
09:23First, I have done what I understood.
09:26Now, whether it will reach you or not,
09:29only time will tell.
09:31Is there any particular song that you like?
09:33Obviously, all the songs would be lovely,
09:35but is there any line in your mind?
09:37I recommend everyone to adopt a caller's tune.
09:45You should also recommend it.
09:49Open your mouth like a flower.
09:54When you will call someone,
09:56and this line will be played,
09:58the other person will be able to communicate.
10:02Open your mouth like a flower.
10:07Speak in the language of fragrance.
10:18Whenever he plays a tune, it is wonderful.
10:22So, everyone should change their caller's tune.
10:27Mr. Gulzar, you have written a Marathi poem in Urdu.
10:33Yes.
10:34So, the Ghazal is in Marathi.
10:37Has it been implemented in Marathi?
10:40No, Ghazal is in almost all the languages of India.
10:45Ghazal is a form of poetry.
10:52You complete the poem in two lines,
10:58and then compile it.
11:01You compile the couplets and then it becomes Ghazal.
11:05And each line is complete in itself.
11:09So, this form is very beautiful.
11:12Poets have tried this in all languages.
11:16In Marathi, Suresh Bhatt is one of the major Ghazal writers.
11:23The rest are called poems.
11:25But Suresh Bhatt has experimented a lot on Ghazal.
11:30He has written a lot of Ghazal.
11:32He has written a poem in this generation as well.
11:38Kishore Kadam has written a poem in the name of Sumitra.
11:45Otherwise, his name is Kishore Kadam.
11:47But he has written it in the name of Sumitra.
11:49He is a good poet.
11:51He has also written a Ghazal.
11:53He has written it in this era as well.
11:55Dilip Chitre Sahab had tried it,
11:57but Dilip Chitre did not pursue Ghazal.
12:00Dilip Chitre Sahab used Nazm, Rubai and Kata forms.
12:09And he wrote in Marathi.
12:12Today's modern form is called Choti Nazme.
12:16Kusuma Graj has written a lot.
12:21And I have also translated Choti Nazme into Urdu for many magazines.
12:28If possible, I will publish a book soon.
12:33Kusuma Graj has about 100-150 poems.
12:36I intend to publish them.
12:40Ghazal has been written in Marathi.
12:43And Balaji's younger brother used to compose Ghazal.
12:49He used to compose Ghazal in Marathi.
12:54He used to compose Ghazal and sing as well.
12:57Ghazal is the most popular Ghazal in Gujarati.
13:00It has been tried in all the languages of India.
13:04It has been written in Punjabi and Hindi as well.
13:07But it has been very successful.
13:09And its poets are Gujarati.
13:12Sir, have you heard any Gujarati Ghazal?
13:15Yes, I have heard it.
13:16I have heard it in all the languages of India.
13:18I keep reading it.
13:20And especially Shahida's Ghazal is very famous.
13:25There is also Ramesh Thakur.
13:28Ramesh Pai.
13:31And you have also written in your own language.
13:34Yes, I have also written in my own language.
13:36There is Sitanshu Bhai who has written Ghazal.
13:39But he has written less Ghazal.
13:41But he has played the sonnet in the western form.
13:46He has done a lot of work.
13:50Jagjit Singh has given a new name to Ghalib.
13:55What did I give to Ghalib? I got it from Ghalib.
13:58I got it from Ghalib.
14:00What did I have to give to Ghalib?
14:01I have given him what I deserve.