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00:00Well let's get some perspective on the reopening of the Notre Dame Cathedral with Andrew Smith.
00:04He's a lecturer at Queen Mary University who joins us now from London. Thank you so much for being
00:09with us on the programme today. The restoration took five and a half years as Macron promised
00:15it would. Could we call it a success as he'd hoped? I think absolutely this does seem very
00:21much like a success. We saw you know the extraordinary shock when of course the original
00:27fire took hold in April 2019 and we saw the way that was reported worldwide, the way that
00:33it shocked people. We saw tears outside and really a sense of something quite dramatic having
00:39happened, something momentous. Cathedrals take a long time to build and this looks like a success.
00:44There's a famous work of medieval history by Jean Champel which is called the Cathedral Builders.
00:51Jean Champel of course was a resistance fighter as well as a French historian, a bit like
00:55Marc Bloch who'll be shortly inducted into the the Panthéon. But I think one of the things in
01:00that book at the end of it is a kind of solemn note from the 16th century where it says you know
01:05the great undertakings of the past are no longer possible since charity has grown cold. But I think
01:11what we've seen here you know this is nearly a billion euros of donations, more than 250 companies,
01:16more than 2,000 craftsmen. A project which is led which of course we have to remember took place
01:21during Covid, during all the things that have happened since 2019 and has been delivered. Of
01:26course work still continues, of course it takes a long time to do, but a cathedral takes 200 years
01:31to build and this in five years looks like an extraordinary project, a moment of success which
01:36you know Macron spoke there quite memorably about this idea of a shock of hope, about artisans having
01:42taken ashes and turned them into art and really transforming this space back into one of wonder.
01:49So I think absolutely that language of success is one that's really important to use in this moment.
01:54Now the fire made headlines across the world as you very well may remember and the cathedral
01:59collected hundreds of millions of euros in donations. But what is it about the Notre-Dame
02:04that garnered so much international attention? I mean why is it so emblematic?
02:09Absolutely, you know I think one of the really important things, it's famously been dubbed
02:14its parish is French history. You know Victor Hugo famously noted that time was the architect
02:21and the nation was the builder of these grand structures of Notre-Dame, the idea of the mighty
02:27magnetism of the bells that spoke out. These are really important, these were you know a storehouse
02:33of national identity for France and a symbol really of French refinement for the rest of the
02:38world. Those bells you know they've rung to mark revolution, they've rung to mark reaction,
02:43occupation, liberation. This is something which is seen as having withstood those tests of time. Built
02:49of course during the reign of the Capetian King Philip II, it survived all these moments and
02:54seen something really, as Pierre Nora said, this is a site around which memory crystallises, a place
03:01at the heart of French identity and seen as something symbolising a vision of that grander
03:08sense of what Paris is and what it means to the world and that I think is what's really important
03:13and the idea that it's used all these traditional crafts is so crucial. You know you saw of course
03:17the footage of those craftsmen but actually this really was about almost like a return to the idea
03:22of a republican monarch. The idea of Macron standing there surrounded by a crowd addressing
03:27them and speaking of at this moment of hope that this represents is something which he said he
03:32hoped would be a kind of planetary shock in the same way as it was previously. That message of
03:37success, of hope, of restoration, of luminosity and light built back into that cathedral, that's where
03:44I think that combination of heritage, of ingenuity, of tradition and of application has really combined
03:51to build something special in this reopening of Notre-Dame. Now Macron's two-hour visit was
03:57broadcast live, you know that he gave a speech and paid tribute to the craftsmanship of all those
04:02involved as you just mentioned. Is there something to be said about the scale of the event today
04:07especially given the context of the politics in France? I think this is something to which Emmanuel
04:14Macron has consistently been committed, this idea of the national story, the idea of myth.
04:21We've spoken, I mentioned there already his nomination of Marc Bloch to be brought in
04:26and interred in the Panthéon, the national kind of mythology, the national story that moves around
04:32this. For somebody like Emmanuel Macron I think he's very very focused on the imagery of what
04:37France means. Those shots you can see of him you know talking and marvelling at the traditional
04:42techniques that rebuilt those 13th century roofs, the idea of 2,000 trees used and cut in those
04:49traditional ways. The scale of this I think is seen as something which is really important. I saw a
04:55quite funny joke I thought from a journalist who said if this was Britain would still be waiting on
05:00the bat surveys. I've seen people talking about the idea that this takes a huge effort, this is
05:05something which the state committed itself to and which it delivered and actually I think this is
05:09something which will outlast many of the political arguments of the day and something
05:15to which the idea of the presidency is much more focused. So I think this is something which is
05:19significant, something which is a major achievement in terms of the French state and something which
05:24speaks more than to the state to the idea of the nation. This is something inscribed in the history
05:30of France and the parish of Notre Dame is the history of France and that really says something
05:35to restoring that moment, really something marvellous I think. And just going back to the
05:40cathedral itself, what are some upcoming challenges for the cathedral in the future if any?
05:47Well I mean first of all the biggest challenge is going to be dealing with the crowds as people
05:51queue to get back in to see it and of course they've spoken about you know its first ceremony
05:55that will be taking place and tomorrow I think we'll have a huge amount of interest already from
06:00people who want to go back in and see as we've heard there are new things to be discovered,
06:04you know old moments that we saw kind of wonderful masterpieces around the cathedral which have been
06:10unearthed, cast off the grime of centuries, accreted by the idea of people living and worshipping
06:15there and actually this is something quite new, a new rediscovery of Notre Dame. So that's going
06:20to be a big thing as well. Of course there are wider issues that we'll see throughout this,
06:25of course there'll be issues around security, there'll be issues around kind of preserving and
06:29making sure that it's maintained. Of course the scaffolding on the outside will maintain
06:34until you know next year I think at least there's work that continues on the roof and around it
06:38but like we said the cathedral took 200 years to build, if it takes an extra couple of months just
06:43to make sure that it's you know perfect I think that's something that people can grant it. So
06:47there'll be lots of challenges to deal with in the weeks and months to come but this is something
06:51which actually in the course of those centuries, in those moments that it's seen since then,
06:56the barricades, the idea of you know gunshots ringing out of the liberation as Charles de Gaulle
07:01addressed the public, these are challenges which it has outlived, which it has outlasted.
07:06So those challenges we think will meet the French nation, the French state and Notre Dame itself
07:11are ones we've seen that can be overcome. I think that's the message of hope that comes from this,
07:16the idea of something reborn, that art from the ashes, that shock of hope that Macron spoke about.
07:22Now that the Notre Dame is reopening its doors on December 7th you know many will no doubt be
07:27queuing up to see the new and improved cathedral in the flesh as you said. Now the Culture Minister
07:32has suggested a five euro entrance fee to be imposed, what is your take on this proposal?
07:39It's a challenge we know that traditionally people don't charge to go into
07:43churches, to cathedrals, but this does recognise the fact that this restoration has taken
07:50place because of those ideas of charity, of donations. Right after the fire in 2019 we
07:57saw almost a billion euros worth of funds donated. Of course it was slow to collect at times, why?
08:03Well a little thing called Covid interrupted some of those which changed the financial position of
08:08a lot of people, but actually those ongoing challenges will be around restoration,
08:12will be around renovation, will be around ensuring that these same types of tragedy in terms of the
08:16fire don't happen again, and I think for that sometimes it will be a small price to pay in
08:21terms of that. Of course I think you will need to look at whether or not there can be free access
08:26on certain days, we know of course you know museums are open one day a month and free for
08:31people to visit, perhaps there'll be an address in terms of looking at that type of thing as well.
08:36This is something which needs to represent the fact this is a working place of worship,
08:39this is a place that's important for French people, but it also needs to represent a place
08:43that can be maintained, a place which is built by devotion and continues to be restored by that
08:50devotion as well. As I mentioned right at the start when Jean-Jean Pell wrote about the idea
08:56that charity has gone cold, I think this shows us a kind of rekindling of those moments. If that fire
09:01can do anything positive it is perhaps in rekindling that flame of charity, the warmth of
09:07people contributing to this, those 2,000 craftsmen that poured their heart and soul and sweat into
09:12rebuilding this work of wonder, and that I think is the message of hope. And so five euros to go
09:18and see it I think sounds like a bargain at the price, but I hope as well that they will maintain
09:23access to ensure that ordinary people will be able to go and enjoy and pay tribute.
09:28Five euros is a bargain says Andrew Smith from Queen Mary University,
09:31thank you so much for sharing your thoughts with us on the programme today.