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00:00At 2% tax on the world's richest, it's the main idea from the host of the G20 summit
00:05currently taking place in Brazil, a gathering of the world's biggest economies, a group
00:10that represents 80% of global gas emissions.
00:14Brazilian President Lula da Silva says he wants the summit to focus on climate change
00:18and on poverty in the world.
00:20His proposals for how to address those issues however, facing immediate resistance, notably
00:24from Argentina.
00:26To tell us more, here's our correspondent.
00:29Combating global hunger and poverty, transitioning to clean energies and sustainable development
00:35and reforming the institutions of global governance, those are the three top priorities for discussion
00:41for Brazil and President Lula as they host the G20 summit here in Rio de Janeiro.
00:48And to help with those first two issues, President Lula is going a step further by suggesting
00:52a 2% minimum tax on the world's super rich, which is estimated to generate around $250
01:00billion per year in the fight against poverty and the climate crisis.
01:06Now while most of the members of the G20 are on board with these propositions by President
01:11Lula, there's an elephant in the summit, in the room here, and that is the US President-elect
01:18Donald Trump.
01:19A well-known climate skeptic who took the US out of the Paris Climate Accord in his
01:24first term as President, and also not a great fan of these institutions of global governance.
01:31Now while he's not here at the summit in person, he will have a very strong ally here, that's
01:38President Javier Millet, the far-right leader of Argentina.
01:42And he's already been objecting to the final statement that's being drafted for the summit.
01:47He's objecting to the 2% minimum tax for the super rich.
01:51He wanted it taken out.
01:53It will stay in the final statement, however, now there will be a reference to Argentina's
01:58objection to it.
02:01On the run-up to the summit, activists in Brazil were wont to show their support of
02:05that call from Lula to help the hungry.
02:07Rachel Griffiths has that story.
02:10733 empty plates on Coba Cabana beach, symbolising the 733 million people around the world who
02:19went hungry last year, according to the United Nations.
02:24Activists are calling for more to be done.
02:29The aim of this public act is to demand that the public authorities attending G20 here
02:34in Rio de Janeiro make a swift commitment to eradicating hunger.
02:43It coincides with the G20 summit Brazil is hosting this year.
02:47The goal is to increase awareness and take action to reduce hunger and poverty in the
02:51coming years.
02:54It's also hoped that the alliance could help in the fight against world hunger.
02:59I think we have a unique opportunity right now, led by President Lula at the G20, the
03:03Global Alliance for Hunger.
03:05It provides an instrument, a tool for these countries to come together and from there
03:10bring a set of public policies that will be able to finance and support the fight against
03:14hunger around the world.
03:20According to the World Health Organization, food insecurity and malnutrition are worsening
03:25due to inflation, conflict and climate change.
03:30These issues are being exacerbated by growing inequality worldwide.
03:36Well that G20 summit is happening at the same time as the International Conference on Climate
03:40Change.
03:41There, talks have stalled over the financing to developing countries to adapt to our warming
03:46world.
03:47Our over-reliance on fossil fuels, our use of plastics, travel methods, deforestation,
03:52over-consumption, the main causes of greenhouse gas emissions are well known to us.
03:56So what about the things we do a lot of that might seem more insignificant, unimportant,
04:01but which have a huge impact?
04:02I'm thinking about our emails, our WhatsApp messages, anything really online in fact is
04:06behind all that, our huge data warehouses with huge carbon footprints.
04:12To take a closer look at that, we can speak now to lecturer in computer science and artificial
04:15intelligence at Loughborough University, Andrea Sotojo.
04:19Thanks so much for your time and being with us.
04:21Can I start by asking you, do you think this, this COP29, do you think that
04:26digital pollution is on the agenda for people?
04:29Good morning. Thanks for having me.
04:32Yeah, I have seen some of the results and I was pleased to see that for the first time,
04:39the digital pollution is now on the agenda and is being talked about.
04:44But it's very early stages, I should say.
04:47Just being put on the agenda.
04:49Give us an idea then of, you know, how dirty is it, this digital pollution?
04:53What are we talking? Does it compare to cars?
04:56Does it compare to cows? How big a percentage of the problem is it?
05:01It is fairly big. Estimates look at two to three percent of global CO2 emissions.
05:10So they place the amount of CO2 that we generate via the digitalisation process,
05:18even superior to that of aviation.
05:20And so that's a significant amount.
05:22But what is even more important is that the trend with the increase in use of our
05:29digital platforms and particularly with artificial intelligence,
05:33this number is going to go up significantly in the next few years.
05:37Yeah, and if it's only hitting the agenda and still not getting quite a lot of focus,
05:40two to three percent is quite a sizable chunk.
05:44We can look at AI in a moment, but I'm thinking, you know, of the tools
05:48we all use on a daily basis.
05:50And I know here at France 24, there's a lot of emails sent.
05:53I mean, does something as small as an email have an impact?
05:57It does, because emails are everywhere and are there all the time.
06:01And there is also the impact of what's called dark data.
06:05That is data that is not accessed anymore.
06:07So if we have a large amount of storage, it could be emails.
06:10It could be photos.
06:11It could be anything that we don't use anymore.
06:13It nevertheless uses energy.
06:17Ah, so I think I'm a very guilty person then.
06:20It's like not deleting, not clearing our inboxes.
06:22It's actually a big part of the problem.
06:26It is a part of the problem.
06:27How big that is, is hard to tell because everything contributes significantly.
06:32What we're trying to do is to create a culture
06:36where we look at what are all possible
06:40parts of the problems.
06:42And so definitely some of the data that we generate
06:46and we don't think about it
06:49is actually responsible for some of the CO2 emissions.
06:53Yeah, especially when it's not, as you say, active data like that.
06:55When it's an email, we might not even have opened.
06:57That's just sitting there for years in some of my cases.
06:59But you've motivated me to go up and clear that inbox.
07:02And I'm also wondering, are the apps on my phone,
07:04are the WhatsApp messages also part of the problem?
07:08Absolutely everything, particularly as things are on the cloud
07:12and we want to have access to something, right?
07:16You want to have access to maybe a photo you took five years ago.
07:19And so the ability to always fetch what you want,
07:25but which you don't do normally, right?
07:27And so all this data is increasing
07:31the energy requirements of very large data centers.
07:35And I think the problem is that every time we buy a new phone,
07:38it has new memory capacity.
07:40It has bigger cameras for more pictures.
07:44And what is worrying is that
07:47we're not really thinking so much about it yet.
07:50No, indeed. OK, so I'm getting the message.
07:51Start printing things out.
07:53Keep a hard copy.
07:54Maybe go back to using the old fashioned landline telephone,
07:57which I'm one of the rare people I still have.
07:59But I know you work specifically in artificial intelligence.
08:02You study that quite a bit.
08:04And it looks like there may be a solution to some extent on that front.
08:07And it's sharing that intelligence.
08:10Right. And I think you also made a point when saying,
08:14oh, should we go back?
08:16Overall, digitalization is contributing
08:20to studying ways to reduce CO2 emissions.
08:25And artificial intelligence is an example
08:28because artificial intelligence allows us to optimize processes
08:34that will reduce CO2 emissions.
08:37But at the same time, it also uses energy.
08:41And this energy is increasing significantly.
08:44As we all know, AI has been in the headlines for a while now.
08:49And we have more and more powerful tools.
08:52These tools use a lot of energy.
08:55And is there any way to reduce that energy?
08:57Because I just say we're not really going to go backwards
08:59when it comes to AI or new technologies, are we?
09:03Absolutely.
09:06There are ways to do so.
09:08But because we are at the very early stages,
09:12I don't think we are making significant efforts yet.
09:15But we're focusing on
09:18pointing out what are the potential drawbacks.
09:22If you think about many other processes in technology
09:26had a similar process, for example, when car were invented,
09:30everyone was happy and everyone thought, that's great.
09:33Let's build a lot of cars.
09:35And it took many decades before people start thinking, oh, wait a minute.
09:39Actually, they do pollute. Let's do something about it.
09:42And I think the same process has to happen with digitalization
09:45and artificial intelligence.
09:47Let's just hope it happens slightly quicker than it did with our car industry.
09:51Given the state of the world today, Mr.
09:53Andrea Sottosio, thanks so much for your time and joining us here on France 24.
09:57My pleasure. Very much appreciated.