Chief rugby writer Graham Bean discusses Scotland's upcoming match against South Africa with sports editor Mark Atkinson.
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00:00Hello and welcome to this episode of the Scotsman Rugby Show. My name is Mark Atkinson, Sports
00:07Editor for Scotsman and I'm joined today by our Chief Rugby Writer, Graeme Bean. Graeme,
00:13how are you?
00:14Very well, Mark, thank you. Looking forward to Sunday.
00:18Yes, we're in the midst of the Alton Nation Series and Sunday is the big one. Scotland
00:23taking on the World Champions, South Africa. We have had the appetiser, I suppose, to that
00:29game. Graeme, that's the first chance we've really had to talk briefly about the game
00:33against Fiji on Saturday, which Scotland won 57-17. You were in attendance for us at Murrayfield.
00:41What were your overall thoughts on Scotland's performance?
00:43Yes, it was good. It was good. Nice to see a few tries, eight of them for Scotland, all
00:49from the backs. It was a strange sort of game. Scotland started well but then had a little
00:56dip before half-time. Fiji came into it, put Scotland under a lot of pressure, which is
01:00probably no bad thing in terms of preparation for the other games. In the second half, Fiji
01:05also started strongly, scored another try. But then Scotland came back into it really
01:09well. Darcy Graham in particular was very good, four of the eight tries from him. In
01:15the end, it was a pretty convincing win but I think we've got to remember that Fiji were
01:19missing an awful lot of players. They weren't able to select from the clubs in England and
01:24fans like Scotland, but I think they bore the brunt of that. There's a lot of young
01:29players on that Fiji team. As our coach, Mick Byrne, pointed out afterwards, some had only
01:34played just a handful of professional games. So it was a big learning curve for them. They
01:39showed up well in parts, but Scotland were too strong and too professional in the end.
01:44It certainly keeps spirits high ahead of playing South Africa when you win by a scoreline of
01:50above 50 points. And of course, there's been some news today that's come out that I'm pretty
01:55sure is going to lift people of a Scottish rugby persuasion. And that is the news that
02:00Scotland captain, new Scotland captain, Sir Ian Chupalotu, has agreed a contract extension
02:05with Glasgow Warriors. Now, the informed centre was linked with Stade Francais in the top
02:1114 and the Gallagher Premiership duo, Bath and Harlequins. And I think a lot of us were
02:17thinking that he may well, at the age of 27, move on to potentially a more luxury contract
02:23and a better sort of playing environment, I suppose. What does this mean for Scotland
02:31keeping arguably Scotland's most attractive player right now at Glasgow in the SRU?
02:38Yeah, it's a big statement by Scottish rugby, actually, because, you know, the newly appointed
02:43Scotland captain, it wouldn't have looked great if he was immediately fleeing Scotland
02:49just after being appointed. But I can only imagine that Scottish rugby has pushed the
02:54boat out to keep Sione here because he is at the very, very top of his game. He's been
03:00excellent the last couple of years for Glasgow, in particular, and Scotland as well. I mean,
03:05he was a huge part of Glasgow's URC win last season. And it's great news for Glasgow, great
03:13news for Scotland. And I would imagine he's got a pretty good deal out of it. So good
03:17news for the player as well, who's just recently become a new father. And I think he's quite
03:22settled in Scotland, likes it here. He's been great for Scotland, really, and great for
03:28Scottish rugby. And now his little brother, Massey, is over here as well. So, you know,
03:32it's nice to see that, you know, he's putting down some roots here with this new contract.
03:37And I think it's just great news for Scotland.
03:40Did it surprise you, Graeme, that the SRU have managed to ward off the overtures of
03:45a couple of clubs that have got a pretty large war chest?
03:49It did a wee bit. I think we've seen, you know, Blair Kinghorn go over to France and
03:54do really well over there. Really, really improving his game and coming out of his comfort
04:00zone is what Blair always says about his move to France. And he's achieved great things
04:05over there, you know, winning the Champions Cup and the French Top 14. But I think Sione
04:11is a slightly different case. You know, he's come over to Glasgow and really kind of helped
04:17galvanise Glasgow under Franco Smith. He just seems to work really well. It would be a lot
04:22to give up. Plus, perhaps maybe, I think Stade Francais was a club that has been linked with
04:27them. Maybe they're struggling a little bit in French rugby at the moment. Maybe not what
04:32they were. And perhaps it's not such a great move going to a team that are struggling at
04:37the bottom of the French Top 14. But obviously Bath and Harlequin are attractive suitors
04:44as well. We spoke to Sione on Friday and he spoke about rugby's a short career. He's got
04:51to consider all his options. But, you know, here we are a few days later and the deal
04:55is done and he's staying with Glasgow.
04:58Good news for Glasgow, first and foremost, because of the talismanic figure he's become
05:04and it will give those Scotland players a lift, I'm sure, knowing that their captain's
05:08future is resolved. Team selection for Sunday has been a big talking point this week, Graeme,
05:16that the team is named on Friday. South Africa are also naming their team on Friday, delaying
05:20it by 24 hours. There are a few, let's say, contentious issues for Gregor Townsend to
05:27sort out when he picks his team. Why don't we start with the full-back position and the
05:35wing position, because they've been the ones that have dominated the narrative this week
05:38with Darcey Graeme's injury. He can't play on Sunday. Who would you select in those three
05:45key positions for Scotland?
05:47Yeah, it's a shame for Darcey Graeme. As I said, four tries against Fiji looked really
05:52good, his first Scotland game since the World Cup, but unfortunately he's not going to be
05:56able to make it this weekend. Kyle Rowe was a full-back against Fiji, played well, scored
06:04a good try, but he had to come off as well with an injury, a hamstring injury. Now, that
06:08looked really bad at the time and Townsend was quite pessimistic about his chances of
06:12facing South Africa, but scan results have shown that it's not quite as bad as originally
06:18thought. He could play, but I think he's being monitored as the week goes on, so we'll see
06:25tomorrow. I think if he is fit, the obvious thing to do would be to push him from full-back
06:30to wing, to take the place of Darcey Graeme and then bring in Blair King Hornet full-back.
06:35Now, the problem is that if it was just too soon for Kyle Rowe, that creates another headache
06:43for Townsend. Who does he bring in on the wing? He loses Graeme and Rowe for this game,
06:50which is a bit of a blow, because you've got to remember that Kyle Steyn, another option
06:56on the wing, is also unavailable for this match. Aaron Reid is one option, made a Scotland
07:02debut on the summer tour, scored two tries against Canada. This is obviously a huge step
07:07up from that, playing the world champions, sold out Murrayfield, but he's quick. He's
07:15got that in common with Darcey Graeme, very, very quick, similar stature, not a particularly
07:20big player, but small, very, very good footwork. That's done well for sale this season as well,
07:30so he's certainly an option. Jamie Dobie is the other one he could play, mainly a scrum
07:35half of course, but Scotland like him on the wing. He's played there twice in the summer
07:40on the wing, good under the high ball, he's another contender. He could play Kinghorn
07:49there, because Kinghorn has done well for Toulouse on the wing this season. I think
07:52four of his eight matches for Toulouse if he started on the wing. He could play on the
07:57wing and he could bring in Harry Paterson perhaps at full-back, but he's not at a lot
08:01of rugby this season because of injury. So there's options. It's not like he's got a
08:09dearth of availability if he could bring in players there, but I wonder, do we think
08:15that Kinghorn is better for Scotland at full-back or on the wing? That's probably one of the
08:19big conundrums to solve. Yeah, I think he'd be great in both roles, but I think the trouble
08:27is if he played on the wing, you're probably going to have a bit of inexperience at full-back,
08:32which would be a slight concern. So I think probably the obvious thing to do would be
08:36to play Kinghorn at full-back. Ideally, Rowe would be on the wing in place of Graham, but
08:43we shall find out tomorrow afternoon.
08:45Yeah, of course, there's also the option of putting one of the Glasgow stand-offs at 15,
08:50Tom Jordan or Adam Hastings. Could, in theory, player Tom Jordan made his debut against Fiji
08:55and played well, but as you alluded to earlier, this is a serious step up. Do you sometimes
09:00just want to keep those players in their best position and minimise disruption to a backline?
09:05I think so. There's also actually Hugh Jones. There's three Glasgow players that could play
09:10at full-back. I've all done that, but it is taking them out of their comfort zone a little
09:16bit against the best team in the world. So it would seem a bit of an unnecessary risk
09:23when you've got Kinghorn, who plays there for one of the biggest clubs in the world.
09:27But yeah, I mean, Jordan did well at full-back against Fiji when he came off the bench to
09:31replace Rowe, but it's not a position he's played very often for Glasgow in the last
09:35couple of years.
09:36Absolutely, absolutely. You mentioned Hugh Jones, and we've talked about the centres,
09:40we've talked about the other centre, Sione Ciupolotu. Surely you don't want to break
09:44up the Ciupolotu partnership that has done so well for club and country?
09:48No, and I don't think he will. I think they're nailed on to start in the centre berths. I
09:55mean, they look good again on Saturday there. I mean, Jones got a couple of tries, could
09:59have got another one actually. But he looks like he's really, really flying at the moment,
10:06injury-free touchwood and just combining really well with the Ciupolotu.
10:12So at Scrum Half and Stand Off against Fiji, we had the combination of Ali Price and Adam
10:18Hastings. We chatted off-air earlier, Graeme, and we both wondered, could there be a complete
10:25change around in that combination?
10:27Yeah, I mean, I think Finn Russell will almost certainly come back in the team for Adam Hastings.
10:34I mean, I'm used to the Dwellians, Fiji, but Finn Russell's Scotland captain last season
10:42and their most creative player, the guy that leads the attack, very experienced and just
10:49offers something completely different. So I think he's almost certainly going to start
10:54at 10.
10:55Scrum Half's a more intriguing one, perhaps. Ali Price did OK there on Saturday. He was
11:02a surprise selection for many, but, you know, he made a good start to the season with Edinburgh.
11:09Ben White has kind of been the first choice Scrum Half more recently for Town's End. Through
11:16last season's Six Nations, I think he played four of the five games. He started against
11:22South Africa in the World Cup in Marseille a year ago. He's played in France for too
11:27long, in and out of the team a little bit. He's got Baptiste Serin there competing for
11:33the number nine jersey. You know, it's a high bar there. But I think he would probably just
11:41edge it, I think, to start on Saturday. Also got the Glasgow pair, George Horn and Jamie
11:48Dobie, we spoke about before, also in the mix. Town's End was a little bit cool about
11:55George Horn last week when he spoke about the team to play Fiji. But he's been very
12:04effective for Scotland in the past, particularly off the bench. So, you know, we'll wait and
12:09see.
12:10It's a funny one, the Scrum Half situation. It's just when you think that Ben White had
12:14the shirt in his hands, he was left out for a couple of big games last season, which I
12:20think makes us all think that maybe Town's End isn't wholly sold on any of the Scrum
12:24Halves. It's such an important position, especially when you're playing a team like South Africa,
12:29who are going to be right on the breakdown and the ball coming out.
12:33Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that's true. I think it is kind of for grabs. I mean, I think
12:38the big surprise last year was the World Cup, the final game against Ireland in the group
12:42stage. Alec Price suddenly came back in to start that one. And I think Ben White, if
12:49I remember correctly, didn't even make the bench. Yeah, I mean, that was a surprise.
12:57But then he came back in for the Six Nations and played all but the Italy match. So, you
13:01know, if you forced my hand, I would say White will start, but not 100 per cent.
13:11Apparently, it's certainly up for grabs. The pack, the forwards, that looked a bit more
13:17settled, doesn't it? Do you anticipate many changes from one to eight?
13:22I don't think so, no. Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't be completely surprised if he picked the same
13:28eight to start against South Africa that he did against Fiji. It's a strong experience
13:34to pack that, you know, and all drawn from Glasgow and Edinburgh. Yeah, it's hard to
13:41know where you would make the change.
13:44Absolutely. I mean, you look at the back row in particular, which just looks very, very
13:49settled now with a nice blend of Matt Fagerson and Rory Darge and Jack Dempsey. You've got
13:55that great jackling ability. You've got the power and the experience of playing South
14:01Africa, which is required in a game like this, isn't it?
14:04Yeah, yeah, I think the back row is really good. Dempsey in particular, his ball carrying
14:09abilities is a huge strength for Scotland. Yeah, no, I think those three should start
14:17all being fit. Perhaps more interesting around the bench, there might be a couple of changes
14:23there for the forward players.
14:26Yeah, I mean, Xander Fagerson, I mean, he's a colossus, but even the biggest personalities
14:34will find it hard to deal with the arrival of new children. He must be having quite a
14:39tiring week, you would have thought, after his wife, Yasmin, gave birth.
14:42Yeah, he and Yasmin have had twins, so yeah, that's a nice story coming out of the Scotland
14:47camp this week. I think probably, from a Scotland point of view, it's quite good as a start
14:54of the week.
14:56Absolutely.
14:56I think he'll get a bit of a chance to recover.
14:58It's a problem position, isn't it, though, that type of problem? It's because we don't
15:03have depth in that area, do we?
15:07No, Gregor Townsend would probably disagree with you on that. He claims it is, but I think
15:12on Saturday against Fiji, it was only really Darcy Ray that was available as backup. He
15:18hadn't played for Scotland for five years, but he's one that has come a bit more into
15:23prominence with Edinburgh this season. So he came in, won a second cap. Whether he'll
15:31keep his place on the bench remains to be seen. There's a couple of, there's Will Hard
15:35and Elliot Miller-Mills, or other alternatives, who could come in. They've not played a huge
15:40amount of rugby this season at their respective clubs in England, but yeah, that's an interesting
15:46one. It's a tricky one. I think he might stick with Darcy Ray, just because of what he's
15:52done this season and what he did against Fiji as well.
15:56Yeah, yeah. He spoke very well about Darcy Ray, didn't he, afterwards. You could tell
15:59he was very pleased on Saturday night that Darcy Ray had got himself back into the international
16:05mix.
16:06Yeah, yeah. I mean, he said a couple of times recently, Townsend, that Darcy Ray's in the
16:10best form of his career, which, I mean, that's, yeah, I mean, that's good news for Scotland,
16:16yeah. And yeah, good news for Edinburgh as well, actually.
16:19Absolutely. It's been a busy week so far. We haven't got the teams yet, and with a Sunday
16:23match, I always feel the build-up is prolonged a little more. There was a bit of a shot fired
16:29from a South African camp in one of their press conferences yesterday, where Andrei
16:33Esterhausen was discussing South African players or other players defecting to other countries,
16:42and we've seen that with Scotland. And he, to paraphrase him, basically said, I'm happy
16:46to have a smaller number of camps for my nation at birth than going to play somewhere
16:51else, i.e. Scotland, and I'm probably looking at people like Doohan van der Merwe and Pierre
16:57Schoeman. Do you think that might have lit a fire underneath the Scotland camp ahead
17:00of this?
17:02Yeah, I think these South African players in the Scotland squad are quite sensitive
17:07to these kind of criticisms, particularly from their own countrymen, you know, back
17:12in South Africa. I mean, Doohan and Pierre are good friends, and they moved over here
17:20a number of years ago, made their lives and careers over here, you know, fully committed,
17:27but there is still that thing that kind of nags away, you know, at some people who will
17:34accept them as Scottish. They both qualified on residency rule, and I think it probably
17:42has touched a bit of a raw nerve, and we're interested to see if they respond to that
17:47in any way, either during the game or after the game, you know, when they speak to the
17:51media, if they do speak to the media. But I think it's something that the Scottish squad
17:57will use as motivation.
18:00It adds a bit of extra spice to a fixture that doesn't need an awful lot more flavour,
18:05to be honest. Scotland obviously played South Africa at the World Cup last year, a decent
18:11first half by all accounts, only trailing 6-3, but the game got away from them very
18:15quickly thereafter. What's a fair expectation of Scotland this time around at Murrayfield?
18:24Well, I think things have changed quite a lot since that World Cup. I think the fact
18:29that it's, you know, that was a warm night in Marseille with, you know, neutral ground,
18:35there was a lot of pressure, a lot of... South Africa were big favourites that night. I think
18:40at Murrayfield, a sold-out home crowd would be a bit cooler, conditions will suit Scotland,
18:47Scotland will have, what, 90% of the support, I would think. You know, I think it's all
18:55in Scotland's favour this weekend. I know South Africa are, you know, top team, double
19:00World Cup winners the last two tournaments, they're ranked number two in the world, they're,
19:05you know, some great talents and a great coach. But, you know, this is... Scotland got their
19:11best chance of being in South Africa, far better chance this weekend, I think, than
19:15they did at the World Cup. I think it'll be close. And, you know, Scotland's got some great
19:23backs, you know, the great sort of... If you can get the ball to them, you know, some devastating
19:26finisher, you know. Doohan, you spoke about, you know, he looked really good against Fiji,
19:31I thought, you know, he's got a lot of criticism the last year or so, some of his performances
19:35for Edinburgh in particular, but, you know, I thought he looked really good against Fiji.
19:39More hungry, you know, went looking for the ball more, was setting up teammates, you know,
19:45I think this could be a good match for him this weekend to really show what he's about.
19:52Do you think it helps, Graeme, that a lot of these Glasgow players have got
19:56good muscle memory of winning in South Africa recently? We know that they won against the
20:03Stormers just a couple of weeks ago in the URCGT. Of course, that wonderful final victory
20:09against all the odds only a matter of months ago, that actually must help when you come up against
20:16the same players, albeit in the green of South Africa rather than one of the provinces.
20:21Yeah, it does. I think it definitely strips away some of the mystique around these South African
20:25players when you play them more regularly. And, I mean, that win over the Bulls in the final,
20:30as you say, that was a fantastic achievement by Glasgow, you know, to do it at Loftus-Weersfeld,
20:35you know, altitude, absolutely brilliant. I think there's 19 Glasgow players in this Scotland squad,
20:43so, I mean, their influence is clear. You know, I think that helps. I think it also helps, like,
20:49someone like Blair Kinghorn has gone away to France and lifted the top honours in the game,
20:54you know, he's another one that won't be intimidated by these opponents. And that's
20:59all happened since that World Cup game, you know, so I think the mentality has changed a little bit
21:03for the better within the Scotland squad, which comes with winning, with winning big tournaments.
21:09Is it fair to say, finally, that if Scotland were to win here, that's the kind of statement result
21:15that Gregor Townsend and these players can feast upon going into the Six Nations next year?
21:22Yeah, yeah, I mean, it'd be a great result, wouldn't it, to beat the world champions,
21:26the reigning world champions. It doesn't happen very often, you know, you feel like it's a result
21:31that Scotland need, actually, to really lift the mood if you could win this one. I think it'd be
21:37such a fillip for the game in this country.
21:40Well, fingers crossed we get it. A busy week ahead, Graeme, two announcements on Friday,
21:44as we said, and the captain's run on Saturday in South Africa, also holding their press conference
21:50as well. We'll have all the coverage, all the news, the analysis, the reaction ahead and after
21:57a huge match at Murray Field. Graeme, I'm going to let you get on for now. Thank you very much
22:01for joining me today, and we'll speak again, no doubt, soon at the build-up to this big match.
22:05Bye for now.
22:06Mark, cheers.