In the hours before his execution, Ted Bundy sat down for a last interview with James Dobson. In this interview Bundy played his final card, weaving tales of victimhood and societal blame. But was it sincere remorse or the final act of a master manipulator? Witness as a psychiatrist dissects Bundy's words, shedding light on the dark corners of this psychopathic serial killer's psyche. Hit play for an unflinching look at one of history's most infamous criminals.
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TVTranscript
00:00It was like something had, say, snapped, that I knew that I couldn't control it anymore.
00:05Today we delve into the enigmatic and chilling final chapter of Ted Bundy's story,
00:11his last interview with James Dobson. Hours before his execution, Bundy engages in a psychological
00:17chess game, using his intelligence and charm in a desperate bid to avoid the chair for the
00:22multitude of horrendous murders he committed. Before we delve into today's topic, please be
00:28aware that this video discusses sensitive and potentially disturbing content related to violent
00:34crimes. Viewer discretion is advised. As we explore this chilling interview, consider what
00:40signs of manipulation you notice in Bundy's responses. Share your thoughts in the comments
00:46below. Ted, it is about 2.30 in the afternoon. Your schedule will be executed tomorrow morning
00:53at seven o'clock if you don't receive another stay. What is going through your mind? What
00:59thoughts have you had in these last few days? I won't kid you to say that it's something that I
01:09feel that I'm in control of or something that I've come to terms with, because I haven't.
01:14It's a moment-by-moment thing. Sometimes I feel very tranquil and other times I don't feel
01:21tranquil at all. What's going through my mind right now is to use the minutes and hours that
01:28I have left as fruitfully as possible and see what happens. It helps to live in the moment in
01:37the essence that we use it productively. So right now I'm feeling calm and in large part because
01:44I'm here with you. Bundy talks about using his time productively, which seems honest,
01:51but there's more to it. He claims he's a victim of intimate imagery leading him down a dark path.
01:56This narrative makes him seem less like a perpetrator and more like someone who also
02:01suffered. It's a clever move, especially when he's trying to align with Dobson's views against
02:06pornography. Does he need to be incarcerated? Yes, but he doesn't deserve execution. For years,
02:13he had denied committing the murders. Now, as part of his last gamble, he admits the murders,
02:19but denies full responsibility for them, seeking an ally in James Dobson who may intercede in his
02:25pleas for clemency and the commutation of his death sentence. Psychopaths will frequently
02:31try to use flattery to create a good impression. People much more intelligent than I have been
02:35working on for years, but one that I've been working on for years and trying to understand.
02:42It, is there enough time to explain it all? I don't know. I think I understand it though,
02:49understand what happened to me to the extent that I can see how certain feelings and ideas
02:58developed in me to the point where I began to act out on them. Certain very violent and very
03:03destructive feeling. As a psychiatrist watching this, several things stick out. Firstly, Bundy's
03:09acknowledgement of his crimes is unaccompanied by any significant overt emotional response,
03:14suggesting a lack of empathy and remorse, key elements of psychopathy. Secondly, his reflection
03:21on the development of his violent tendencies is designed to point to self-awareness, but is
03:26belied by the detachment in his tone. This is indicative of the emotional shallowness we see
03:31in psychopaths. Lastly, it is very striking to me that Bundy asks,
03:38is there enough time to explain it all? I don't know. Is there enough time to explain it all?
03:44This could be seen as either a throwaway comment or reflection on the lack of time he has to help
03:48others by explaining what he thinks happened to him. Given Bundy's psychopathy score, I think it
03:55is far more likely that this is him trying to plant the seed that if he only had more time,
04:00he could productively help society by helping it understand the suggested link between intimate
04:05imagery and the development of serial killers. Again, he is fishing for a commutation of his
04:11death sentence, but he is doing so quite subtly and in quite a superficially charming and believable
04:17manner. He's quite good at playing the part. I'll give him that.
04:47One of five brothers and sisters. A home where we as children were the focus of my parents' lives,
04:56where we regularly attended church, two Christian parents who did not drink, they did not smoke,
05:02there was no gambling, there was no physical abuse or fighting in the home. I'm not saying
05:08this was Leave it to Beaver. It wasn't a perfect home. No, no, I don't know that
05:12such a home exists, but it was a fine, solid Christian home.
05:16Bundy's emphasis on a wholesome upbringing serves to dissociate his psychopathic behavior
05:22from environmental factors. This contradicts reports of a troubled early life, suggesting
05:28an intentional narrative to absolve himself from blame and reinforce his victimhood stance.
05:35His mother reports he lived with his maternal grandfather, a man who was known to do terrible
05:40things to his children, spout racist rhetoric and kill neighborhood pets, and who is suspected
05:47of fathering Bundy with his own daughter as well. Additionally, Bundy was shoplifting,
05:53stealing and engaging in peeping Tom behaviors from a relatively early age, and was even suspected
05:59of committing his first murder at the age of 15 when Anne-Marie Burr, an eight-year-old, disappeared.
06:06In 1987, Bundy confided that he would never talk about some murders because they were committed
06:13too close to home, too close to family, or involved victims who were very young. I suspect
06:21we can believe Bundy when he said this, and believe that there were more victims and some
06:26were not yet adults.
06:56But dwelling on the issues with his upbringing wouldn't further Bundy's goal of putting all the
07:13blame on his exposure to intimate imagery. Bundy's continued insistence on intimate imagery shaping
07:19his actions is a classic psychopathic trait of externalizing blame. His ability to present this
07:25narrative in a charming, convincing manner highlights his manipulative skills, even in the
07:31face of overwhelming evidence of his intrinsic violent tendencies. He's a monster, but he's a
07:37very capable, intelligent, superficially charming, and superficially believable monster. That was why
07:43he was so dangerous.
07:55of our neighborhood and oftentimes people would dump
08:00the garbage and whatever they were cleaning out of their house and from time to time we'd come
08:04across so pornographic books of a harder nature than more graphic you might say more explicit
08:11nature than we would encounter let's say in your local grocery store and this also included such
08:16things as let's say detective magazines and more hard those that involve violence yes yes and i
08:23and this is something i think i want to emphasize is the the the most damaging
08:31kinds of pornography and my again i'm talking from personal experience
08:36hard real personal experience the most damaging kinds of pornography are those that involve
08:41violence and sexual violence because the wedding of those two forces as i know only too well brings
08:48about behavior that it's just it's just too terrible to describe again bundy emphasizes
08:56the influence of intimate imagery in his developmental years he links the combination
09:01of violence and sexual content in intimate imagery as catalytic in his development of
09:06violent behavior this aligns with his continued narrative that external factors created this
09:12sickness in him which he isn't responsible for he's the real victim here by verbally claiming
09:18responsibility while shifting the blame to external factors he follows a common tactic
09:23used in manipulative behaviors aligning with characteristics of the hair psychopathy checklist
09:29he's quite charming and outwardly believable in earnest when doing this though you can easily
09:34see how he'd have been able to put people at ease and get close enough to attack now walk me through
09:39that what was going on in your mind at that time okay before we go any further i think it's
09:44important to me and and that people that people believe what i'm saying to tell you that that i'm
09:51not blaming pornography and not saying that it caused me to go out and do certain things and i
09:59take full responsibility for whatever i've done and all the things that i've done that that i'm not
10:04blaming pornography and not saying that it caused me to go out and do certain things and i take full
10:12responsibility for whatever i've done and all the things that i've done i often see this psychopaths
10:17and other manipulators say they are doing the precise opposite of what they're doing as though
10:22saying it will cause one to miss what they're doing yes he is blaming pornography and no he
10:28isn't taking full responsibility for what he's done this contradiction is typical of psychopathic
10:34behavior where individuals often engage in manipulative tactics to appear responsible
10:39while pointing the finger elsewhere what's your take on bundy blaming intimate imagery
10:44is it a deflection of guilt or could there be some truth to his claims that's not the question here
10:50the question and and the issue is how this kind of literature contributed and helped mold and and
10:58shaped the kinds of violent behavior fueled your fantasy system well in in the beginning it fuels
11:05this kind of thought process then at a certain time it's instrumental in what
11:11would say crystallizing it make it and making into something which is almost like a separate entity
11:17inside and that in that point you're at the verge or i was at the verge of acting out on this on
11:23this kind of these kinds of here bundy again plays a double game he admits he's not a helpless victim
11:29yet he keeps emphasizing how external influences shaped his actions it's a strategic way to admit
11:35some fault while still shifting the real blame this approach is common in individuals trying
11:40to negotiate their way out of a tight spot especially when they've been caught bundy does
11:45throughout the entire interview and once you're aware of it it jumps out at you now i really want
11:51to understand that you had gone about as far as you could go in your own fantasy life with
11:57printed material and you made or printed and video or film or film magazines what happened
12:05and and then there was the urge to take that little step or big step over to a physical
12:11right event and it happens it happened in stages gradually it doesn't necessarily not to me at
12:19least happen overnight my experience with i say pornography generally but with pornography that
12:26deals on a violent level with the sexuality is that once you become addicted to it and i look
12:35at this as a kind of addiction like other kinds of addiction of addiction you keep i would keep
12:41looking for more potent more explicit more graphic kinds of material like an addiction you keep
12:48craving something which is harder harder something which which gives you a greater sense of
12:56excitement until you reach the point where the pornography only goes so far you reach
13:03that jumping off point where you begin to wonder if maybe actually doing it will give you
13:11that which is beyond just reading about it or looking at it bundy's description of his
13:15escalating need for more explicit material mirrors the pattern of addiction suggesting
13:20an increasing desensitization to violent content the problem with this for bundy is that that
13:27pattern also aligns with the psychopathic trait of needing constant stimulation or proneness to
13:32boredom in the presence of an unchanging stimulus okay so he wants us to see him as an addict yet
13:39another victim archetype trotted out and yet another way in which he isn't responsible for
13:44what he became and did bundy's expression of feeling deeply about the impact of pornography
13:50is likely another layer of his manipulation aimed at resonating with dobson's concerns
13:56his practiced manipulativeness is on full display here how long did you stay at that
14:01point before you actually assaulted someone well yeah you see
14:08that is a very delicate point
14:10in my own development and we're talking about something we're talking about having reached the
14:14point or a gray area that surrounded that point over a course of years you don't remember how
14:20long that well i would say i would say a couple years and what was i was dealing with there were
14:26very strong inhibitions against criminal behavior or violent behavior that had been conditioned into
14:34me and bred into me in my environment in my neighborhood in my church in my school
14:42things which said no this is wrong again this doesn't really reflect what we've heard from
14:46others of bundy's childhood bundy's reference to the strong inhibitions against violent behavior
14:51instilled by his environment further illustrates his effort to distance his intrinsic psychopathic
14:56tendencies from his actions it also shows that he recognizes what he did is wrong his acknowledgement
15:03of societal and moral constraints yet his eventual overriding of these inhibitions
15:09aligns with the psychopathic traits of egocentricity and lack of regard for societal norms
15:15his acknowledgement of the impact on victims and families is likely a strategic move to appear
15:21empathetic fitting his manipulative pattern i mean just even to think of it as wrong but
15:27certainly to do it as wrong and you're on well i'm on that edge and these the last you might say
15:31the last vestiges of restraint the barriers to actually doing something were being tested
15:40constantly and assault assailed um through the kind of fantasy life that was fueled
15:50largely by pornography do you remember what pushed you over that edge
15:56do you remember the decision to go for it do you remember
16:00where you decided to throw caution to the wind
16:08again when you say pushed i don't i know what you're saying i don't want to infer again i
16:13understand that i was that i was some helpless kind of a victim and yet
16:19we're talking about an influence which that is the influence of violent types of media and
16:25violent pornography which hadn't was an indispensable link in the chain bundy's
16:31insistence that he was not a helpless victim of his influences yet simultaneously attributing
16:37a significant role to these external influences in his behavior is an example of an excellent
16:44manipulative tactic once caught it is much more successful to admit fault and then actually lay
16:49the blame elsewhere than it is to just outright deny any responsibility whatsoever bundy had
16:56denied his guilt for as long as he thought it was viable and now at the end of his life has
17:02decided to admit it but lay the blame elsewhere as a final throw of the dice to get clemency
17:07in a behavior the chain of events that led to the behaviors to the to the assaults to the
17:12murders and what and what have you
17:17it's a it's a very difficult thing to describe uh
17:24the the sensation of the the of of reaching that point we were
17:35reaching that point we were i knew
17:41that it was like something had say snapped that i knew that uh that i couldn't control it anymore
17:47that these barriers that that i had had been i had learned as a child that had been instilled in me
17:54were not enough to hold me back with respect to seeking out and harming somebody this statement
18:01a common narrative in psychopathy where the individual describes a snapping point
18:06this is often used to externalize blame and deflect personal responsibility
18:11suggesting that their actions were beyond their control bundy's reference to childhood barriers
18:16indicates an awareness of societal norms but simultaneously shows a lack of true internalization
18:23of these norms typical in psychopathic behavior he knows and understands them but doesn't feel
18:29or believe them would it be accurate to call out a frenzy a sexual frenzy well yes that's one way
18:37to describe a compulsion a a building up of of this destructive energy again i another factor
18:52here that i haven't mentioned is the use of alcohol but i think that what alcohol did
18:58in conjunction with let's say my exposure to pornography was alcohol reduced my inhibitions
19:05at the same time the the the fantasy life that was fueled by pornography eroded them further
19:15bundy calls it a frenzy a compulsion this sounds like he's detaching himself from the horror of
19:21and responsibility for his actions doesn't it think about it by blaming alcohol and pornography
19:28bundy cleverly shifts the focus onto external factors and not himself in the early days you
19:34were nearly always about half drunk when you did these things is that right yes yes was that always
19:42true i i would say that that was generally the case almost what what without it's all right if
19:51i can understand it now there's this battle going on within there are the conventions that you've
19:56been taught there's the right and wrong that you learned as a child and then there is this this
20:01unbridled passion fueled by your plunge into hardcore violent pornography and those things
20:10are at war with each other yes and then with the alcohol diminishing the the inhibitions
20:17right you let go well yes and to you can summarize it that way and that's accurate certainly
20:27and it just occurred to me that some people would would say that well i i've seen that
20:35stuff and it doesn't do anything to me and i can understand that i know virtually everyone
20:41uh can be exposed to so-called pornography and while they're aroused to it to one degree or
20:46another and not go out and do anything wrong now addictions are like that they affect some people
20:50more than they affect others that there is a percentage of people affected by hardcore
20:55pornography notice how bundy leans into the idea of being intoxicated it's like he's saying it
21:01wasn't me it was the alcohol now imagine a prohibitionist hearing this they'd have a field
21:08day but again bundy's playing the blame game he's trying to convince us that the alcohol and
21:14so-called addiction to pornography are the real culprits but let's not be fooled what's really
21:20going on here in my opinion it is a master manipulator spinning a narrative to a well-meaning
21:26but clearly gullible man in an effort to save his own skin in a very violent way and you're
21:32obviously one of them that was a major component and i don't know why i was vulnerable to it all i
21:38know is that uh that it that it had an impact on me uh that was just so
21:48central to the development of the violent behavior that i engaged in ted after you committed your
21:54first murder what was the emotional effect on you what happened in the days after that
22:03hmm
22:08well again this please understand that even all these years later it's very difficult
22:16to talk about it and in reliving it through talking about it that it's difficult to say
22:23the least but i want you to understand what happened it was like coming out of
22:30some kind of horrible trance or or dream um i can only liken it to after you know i don't want to
22:41overdramatize it but to have been possessed by something so awful and so alien and then the next
22:48morning wake up from it remember what happened and realize that basically i mean in the eyes
22:54of the law certainly in the eyes of god you're responsible to have to wake up in the morning and
23:01and realize what i had done and with a clear mind and all my essential moral and ethical
23:10feelings intact at that moment
23:15absolutely horrified that i was capable of doing something like that so horrified that he took the
23:24heads home with him and assaulted the bodies repeatedly until decay and animal damage made that
23:30no longer possible if he was so horrified why did he keep repeating his crimes there's a disconnect
23:36here the pieces of his story just don't fit together when you examine them closely you really
23:42hadn't known that before there is just absolutely no way to describe first
23:56the brutal urge to do that kind of thing and then what happens is once it it has been more or less
24:05satisfied and received you might say or spent that that sense that the kind of energy
24:12the level receives and basically i became my myself again and i want people to understand
24:18this too and i'm not saying this gratuitously because it's important people understand this
24:23that basically i was a normal person uh i wasn't some guy hanging out at bars or a bum or
24:33i wasn't a pervert in the sense that you know people look at somebody and say i know there's
24:37something wrong with him and just tell i mean i i was essentially a normal person i had
24:43good friends i i i led a normal life except for this one small but very potent and very destructive
24:52segment of it that i kept very secret very close to myself and didn't let anybody know about it
24:58and part of the shock and horror from my dear friends and family when years ago when i was
25:03first arrested was that they just there was no clue they looked at me and they looked at the
25:08you know the um the all-american boy and i'm i mean i wasn't perfect but it was i want to be
25:14quite candid with you i was i was okay okay i was and the basic humanity and basic spirit that god
25:25gave me was intact but unfortunately became overwhelmed at times i think people need to
25:31recognize that it's not some kind of those of us who are who have been so much influenced by
25:41violence in the media in particular pornographic violence are not some kinds of inherent monsters
25:49we are your sons and we are your husbands and we grew up in regular families and pornography can
25:57reach out and snatch a kid out of any house today he snatched me out of my home it snatched me out
26:03of my home 20 30 years ago and as diligent as my parents were
26:14and they were diligent in protecting their children
26:16and as good a christian home as we had and we had a wonderful christian home
26:24there is no protection against the kind that the kinds of influences that are loose in the society
26:30that tolerates again a tissue of lies he wasn't a normal person what he was was a murderous
26:38psychopath who had constructed a facade of normalcy to camouflage the real him here he
26:43is pretending the facade was the real him that's simply not true
26:50you feel this really deeply don't you
26:54head outside these walls right now there are several hundred reporters that wanted to talk
27:01to you yeah and you asked me to come here from california because you had something you wanted
27:08to say this hour that we have together is not just an interview with a man who's scheduled to
27:17die tomorrow morning you feel this really deeply no no he doesn't i can absolutely guarantee you
27:24that as a man who scored 39 out of 40 on the psychopathy checklist he absolutely does not
27:31feel this deeply this is just james dobson seeing what he wants to see as bundy bet he would
27:37score one point for bundy's psychopathic and expert manipulativeness and another one for
27:43some pretty good acting while dobson is talking i'm here and you're here because of this message
27:49that you're talking about right here you really feel that hardcore pornography and the doorway
27:56to it soft core pornography is doing untold damage to other people and causing other women
28:04to be abused and killed the way you did her listen i'm no social scientist and i haven't
28:12done a survey i mean i i don't pretend that i know what john q citizen thinks about this
28:18but i've lived in prison for a long time now and i've met a lot of men who were motivated
28:26to commit violence just like me and without exception every one of them was deeply involved
28:34in pornography without question without exception no ted you're a serial killer of young women who
28:40is looking to get out of being executed and you'll do and say anything to get out of being executed
28:46this includes trying to negotiate for your life in return for giving up the details of where your
28:52victims bodies were and while you engaged in those negotiations you also said you were motivated by
28:58a desire to provide closure to the families but if that were true then you'd just have given up
29:04the details to the families and in reality you didn't because it wasn't about the families
29:09or closure it was about saving your own skin deeply influenced and consumed by an addiction
29:16to pornography there's no question about it the fbi's own study on serial homicide shows that the
29:24most common interest among serial killers is pornography that's true and it's and it's real
29:32it's true wow an fbi study backup bundy's claim that's really convincing except that he's
29:38misrepresenting the study and that isn't what it actually showed but it sure sounded like a good
29:43line and as we see dobson swallowed it hook line and sinker ted what would your life have been like
29:52without that influence
29:59you can only speculate yeah well i i know it would have hit far better not just for me and
30:07and it's excuse me for being so self-centered here it would have been a lot better for me and
30:12lots of other people i know they had lots of other innocent people victims and families it would have
30:19been a lot better there's no question but it it would have been a fuller life certainly a life
30:26that would not have involved i'm absolutely certain would not have evolved involved this
30:33kind of violence that i have been that i have committed again he is deflecting responsibility
30:38for his actions painting a picture of a ted bundy who never saw intimate imagery who would have been
30:44pious and lovely his acknowledgement of the impact on victims and families is designed to appear as a
30:49sign of empathy but given the context and his psychopathic traits it is more about creating a
30:55certain image and narrative which he believes will be favorable to him i'm sure ted if you know if i
31:04were able to ask you the questions that are being asked out there i mean one of the most important
31:10as you come down to perhaps your final hours are you thinking about all those victims out there in
31:17their families well who are so wounded you know years later their lives have not returned to
31:23normal they will never return to normal absolutely are you carrying that load that weight is the
31:28remorse there again i know that people will accuse me of being self-serving but we're beyond
31:38that now i mean i'm just telling you how i feel but through god's help i have been able to come
31:45to the point where i've much too late but better late than never feel the hurt and the pain that i
31:54am responsible for yes absolutely i'm sure dobson viewed bundy's claim of remorse and acknowledging
32:01the pain he caused as significant and i'm sure he would have appreciated bundy's statement that it
32:07was with god's help he was somewhat healed however given his psychopathic profile this expression of
32:15remorse must be viewed skeptically it just seems very rehearsed to me psychopaths are known for
32:21their lack of genuine empathy and remorse and such statements are far more likely to be part
32:27of his manipulations to receive commutation of his sentence in the past few days myself and a number
32:33of investigators have been talking about unsolved cases murders that i was involved in and it's hard
32:42to it's hard to talk about all these years later because it revives in me all those terrible feelings
32:48and those thoughts that i have
32:53steadfastly and and diligently dealt with i think successfully with the love of god
33:02and yet it's reopened that and i felt the pain and i felt the horror again
33:06of all that and i can only hope that those who i have harmed and those who i've called so much grief
33:18even if they don't believe my expression of sorrow and remorse will believe what i'm saying now again
33:30i think bundy is being honest just not in the manner he wishes us to believe he does want people
33:36to believe what i'm saying now but as a psychopath with a 39 out of 40 score on the psychopathy test
33:44it is simply unbelievable that he feels all the sorrow and remorse he claims his mind simply
33:50doesn't work that way he wants you to think it does so you can identify with him feel empathy
33:56for him and want to pardon him but he doesn't have that empathy within himself at all and again we
34:03have the references to god because his interviewer is religious that there is loose in their towns
34:11in their communities people like me today
34:18whose dangerous impulses are being fueled day in and day out by violence in the media in its
34:27various forms particularly sexualized violence and what scares me and let's come into the present now
34:35because what i'm talking about happened 30 20 30 years ago that is in my formative stages
34:42and what scares and appalls me dr dobson is when i see what's on cable tv
34:48some of the movies i mean some of the violence in the movies that come into homes today
34:54with stuff that they that they wouldn't show in x-rated adult theaters 30 years ago this stuff
35:01the slasher movies that you're talking about that stuff is i'm telling you from personal experience
35:07the most that is graphic violence on screen particularly as it gets into the home to
35:15children who may be unattended or or unaware that they may be a ted bundy who has that that
35:22vulnerability to that that predisposition to be influenced by that kind of behavior by that kind of
35:28of a movie that kind of violence that there are kids sitting out there switching the tv dial around
35:35and come upon these movies late at night or i don't know when they're on but they're on and
35:39any kid can watch them it's scary when i think what would have happened to me if i had seen i'm
35:45scary enough i mean that i just ran into stuff outside the home but to speak to to know that
35:51children are watching that kind of thing today or can pick up their phone and dial away for it or
35:57send away for it particularly as it gets into the home to children who may be unattended or
36:03or unaware that they may be a ted bundy who has that that vulnerability to that that predisposition
36:10to be influenced by that kind of behavior by that kind of movie that kind of violence oh yes won't
36:17someone think of the children it's really interesting to see his manipulation at work
36:21as i see it he had three main strands to his attempts to receive commutation firstly negotiating
36:27with the authorities to reveal further details of his crimes and where the bodies were buried in
36:31return for commuting his death sentence secondly appealing to dobson's religiosity through claiming
36:37that he has found god and been changed through this revelation a claim which he could reasonably
36:42expect to motivate dobson or others to seek a stay on his death sentence thirdly suggesting that he
36:48may be able to provide insight into the how exposure to intimate imagery turned him into a
36:53serial killer and by helping understand this he may save lives in future it's the mind hunter
36:59defense as a psychopath none of these rationales are believable instead it is much more believable
37:06that these are all placed to externalize blame avoid responsibility and avoid the death penalty
37:14can you help me understand this desensitization process that took place what was going on in
37:20your mind well by desensitization i describe it in specific terms is that
37:30each time i'd harm someone each time i'd kill someone there'd be an enormous amount
37:38especially at first enormous amount of horror guilt remorse afterwards but then that impulse
37:46to do it again would come back even stronger bundy's description of desensitization reflects
37:51a common phenomenon in serial crimes where initial emotional responses to violence diminish over time
37:58this increasing detachment aligns with psychopathic traits of lacking empathy and remorse
38:03however bundy's claim of experiencing horror guilt remorse is atypical for psychopathy where such
38:10emotions are usually shallow or non-existent if we are to believe his horror guilt and remorse
38:16how do we explain that he didn't provide a full detailing of his crimes and where he left the
38:21bodies the most logical conclusion given what we know about bundy is that he didn't have any horror
38:28guilt and remorse but was just saying what he felt gave him the best chance of surviving now
38:34believe me i didn't the unique thing about how this worked dr dotson is that i still felt
38:41in my regular life the full range of of guilt and and uh remorse about other things uh regret
38:48and you had this compartmentalized this compartmentalized very well focused
38:55very sharply focused area where i was like a black hole it was like a
39:00you know like a crack and everything that fell into that crack just disappeared
39:04does that make sense you can take this one of two ways firstly that bundy is being dishonest
39:09and didn't experience a compartmentalization of empathy guilt regret and remorse but instead is
39:17saying that because it fits his narrative or secondly that bundy despite scoring 39 out of
39:2240 on the psychopathy checklist somehow felt normal human empathy in all aspects of his life
39:28except that aspect which encompassed his mistreatment of and killing of women
39:33that simply isn't believable or keeping with the details of what he did to them both pre
39:37and post-mortem it does uh one of the the final murders that you committed of course
39:46was apparently a little kimberly leach 12 years of age i think the the public outcry
39:53is greater there because an innocent child was taken from a from a playground what did you feel
39:59after that where was there were there the normal emotions three days later where were you dead i
40:12i can't really talk about that right now that's real
40:19that's too painful i would like to uh i'd like to be able to convey to you what that
40:29that uh that experience is like but i can't i won't be able to talk about that
40:42i can't begin to understand well i can try but i'm i'm
40:49aware that i can't begin to understand the pain
40:54that the parents of these of these children that i have and these young women that i've
41:01harmed feel and i can't restore really much to them if anything i won't pretend to and i don't
41:11even expect them to forgive me and i'm not asking for the kind of forgivenesses of god and if they
41:17have it they have it they don't well maybe they'll find it someday do you deserve the punishment the
41:23state has inflicted upon you that's a very good question i'll answer very very honestly i i don't
41:32want to die i'm not going to kid you i'll kid you not um i deserve certainly the most extreme
41:41punishment society has and i deserve i think society deserves to be protected from me and
41:49from others like me that's for sure i think what i what i hope will come of our discussion
41:57is i think society deserves to be protected from itself because because of we as we've been talking
42:06there are there are forces at loose in in this country particularly again this kind of violent
42:12pornography where on the one hand well-meaning decent people will condemn behavior of a ted
42:23bundy while they're walking past a a magazine rack full of the very kinds of things that send
42:30young kids down the road to be ted bundy's bundy's response to the question of deserving punishment
42:35is multifaceted on one hand he acknowledges deserving the most extreme punishment and
42:42recognizes the need for society to be protected from him which might seem like an acceptance of
42:48responsibility however he quickly shifts the focus to society needing protection from itself
42:54particularly from violent pornography this shift can be seen as a continuation of his narrative that
43:00external factors rather than his own psychopathic traits are to blame for his actions his focus on
43:08societal hypocrisy also diverts attention from his own guilt and is a manipulative tactic typical of
43:14psychopathic behavior i believe his reference to divine forgiveness can be seen as an appeal to
43:20dobson's religious or moral sensibilities and is another manipulative strategy that's the irony
43:26we're talking here not just about more we're talking on what i'm talking about is going beyond
43:32retribution which is what people want with me going beyond retribution and punishment because
43:40there is no way in the world that killing me is going to restore uh those beautiful children to
43:47their parents and and and correct and and and soothe the pain but i'll tell you there are lots
43:55of other kids playing in streets around this country today who are going to be dead tomorrow
44:01and the next day and the next day and next month because other young people are reading the kinds
44:06of things and seeing the kinds of things that are available in the media today bundy is suggesting
44:11that his execution won't solve the underlying problems he evinces to believe contributed to
44:17violent behavior his narrative seems to be that killing him won't restore the children so there's
44:22no point killing him instead society should focus on the intimate imagery which is busy creating the
44:29next generation of serial killers ted as you would imagine there is tremendous cynicism about you on
44:34the outside and i suppose for good reason i'm not sure that there's anything that you could say
44:40that people would would believe some people would believe yeah and and yet you told me last night
44:48and i have heard this through our mutual friend john tanner that you have accepted the forgiveness
44:56of jesus christ and are a follower and a believer in him do you draw strength from that yeah as you
45:03approach these final hours i do i can't say that uh it's going to be being in the the valley of the
45:11shadow of death is is something that i've become all that accustomed to and then i you know and
45:16then i'm strong and uh nothing bothering me uh listen it's no fun it's it's it you know it's it's
45:25it's it's kind of lonely and yet
45:30i have to remind myself that every one of us
45:34will go through this someday you know in one way or another and the man and countless
45:39millions who have walked this earth before us have so this is just an experience which we all share
45:44and you know here i am bundy's expression of religious belief and acceptance of forgiveness
45:52can be interpreted in different ways on one hand it could represent a genuine turning point in his
45:58life an acceptance of a higher power and a search for redemption however considering bundy's
46:05psychopathic traits particularly manipulative behavior this is unlikely and is just another
46:11attempt to cast himself in a favorable light in the shadow of ted bundy's execution our exploration
46:18of his final interview offers a haunting glimpse into manipulation and psychopathy his last days
46:24weren't just marked by reflection but also by a frantic scramble for clemency despite efforts by
46:31his attorney and some supporters to sway opinion including pleas to the families of the victims
46:36and plea to governor bob martinez their attempts were starkly rebuffed the families refused his
46:43pleas and governor martinez declared we are not going to have the system manipulated for him to
46:49be negotiating for his life over the bodies of victims is despicable a grave reminder of the
46:55reality behind bundy's machinations in closing our journey through ted bundy's final interview
47:01paints a haunting picture of manipulation and psychopathy it's crucial to remember the real
47:07victims of bundy's crimes the lives tragically cut short and families forever altered their genuine
47:14suffering stands in stark contrast to bundy's feigned victimhood having heard bundy's final
47:19words and our analysis what are your thoughts on how society should deal with such manipulative
47:24individuals do you think we are currently equipped to identify and prevent potential dangers posed by
47:30individuals like bundy what are your thoughts about his final interview join the conversation
47:35and help us dissect these complex criminal minds here on crime and psychiatry if you'd like to
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