In this conversation, Stefan interviews a caller who explores their lifelong feelings of superiority and grandiosity rooted in a tumultuous childhood marked by dysfunctional family dynamics. The caller traces their issues back to their father's abusive behavior and the mother's passive complicity, identifying a moral foundation built on fear rather than faith. As the discussion unfolds, the caller reflects on the impact of their parents' divorce, particularly the father's financial control and emotional volatility, which fostered a distorted self-image tied to achievement. Stefan challenges the caller to confront these ingrained behaviors and offers insights on redefining success through genuine connections rather than dominance. The dialogue ultimately emphasizes personal reflection and growth, leading the caller toward a path of self-acceptance and healthier relationships, marked by kindness and empowerment.
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LearningTranscript
00:00So thanks very much for taking the time to chat. You had some issues or questions around the concept of grandiosity, so I'll let you do the intro speech and we'll see if we can make some sense of it.
00:13Yeah, sure. I've spent most of my life with a very strong sense of superiority
00:25and sort of active disdain for everybody around me.
00:32And I think that it was cultivated in me in childhood.
00:42It's hard to talk about because it's kind of embarrassing, and it's an easy way to get people to get pissed off at you, I guess.
00:59But I mean, it comes out in other ways, and I don't know, it hasn't been as strong in me as it used to be.
01:10But it still kind of bothers me.
01:17I was journaling pretty consistently for a few weeks up until the end of March,
01:28and then I just came up on something that just really, really horrified me about myself.
01:34And I had to put it aside for a couple weeks just because it was so frightening.
01:46Just a lot of anger that seemed to be something that I didn't really have a lot of control over.
02:01I feel like I'm trailing off into space right here.
02:13Sure, absolutely. So can you tell me a little bit about your cultural or religious background?
02:21Sure. My dad, I guess, was sort of a last Catholic.
02:31He stopped going to church probably when he was a young adult, probably when he left the house.
02:39But he read the Bible every day.
02:42And although when I was very young, I didn't go to church daycare or anything,
02:49but we moved to Switzerland when I was five.
02:54And we spent a lot of time together, me and my dad.
02:58My mother was, I don't know, doing other things a lot or something.
03:02But how he would inculcate religion to me is he would talk about Bible stories to me at great length.
03:24So I guess that was really my main religious instruction,
03:28although later I guess I started going to an Episcopalian church for a few years
03:34till I guess I got a little older, probably around nine or ten.
03:44I just couldn't keep up this sort of...
03:51I guess a lot of my faith at the time was motivated by... was really just fear.
03:57And I just couldn't keep that up.
04:00I couldn't keep being afraid of that.
04:03And I just couldn't maintain this sort of belief.
04:08And I felt a lot better after dropping it.
04:12But I mean, it was kind of hard.
04:14Sure, now I understand that.
04:16And you said that your mother kind of drifted through the conversation like a ghost, right?
04:21Okay, my mom was incredibly screwed up.
04:25Yeah.
04:30I'm not really sure where to start with her.
04:36Well, let's talk about a couple of the basics.
04:39Your parents, are they still together?
04:41No, they're divorced.
04:42And when did they divorce? How old were you when they divorced?
04:45I was 15.
04:47And what was the reason for the divorce, at least as it was communicated to you at the time?
04:54It was communicated to me in a lot of ways.
04:59And I picked up on some of the reasons and repressed some of them.
05:03And then there were other reasons that were put forth.
05:07They had these conflicting stories.
05:09They both had different reasons for it.
05:12Dad claimed that my mom had been screwing everything with two legs.
05:17And I know my dad had an affair with a secretary and also the woman that he's married to now.
05:34But I mean, also, my dad just abused the hell out of the whole family.
05:39So that, I guess, was sort of the major cause.
05:44Mom put up with that forever.
05:47The real reason why she divorced him is absolutely because his career started getting screwed up.
05:57And I think she figured it was either now or never if she was going to get out with any money.
06:02So I think that's why she did it.
06:05I don't think it had anything at all to do with how we were treated, how she was treated at all.
06:10I think it was just totally money.
06:15So you mean that she was willing to put up with infidelity in return for a comfortable or monetary lifestyle?
06:23Oh, yeah. I think so.
06:25I think she's willing to put up with any sort of harm.
06:28I think she's comfortable with being abused.
06:30I don't think she likes it any other way, really.
06:32Right. So for your mom, it was like infidelity plus money is good or at least tolerable,
06:42but infidelity without money or with the threat towards money is not.
06:47Yeah.
06:48Is that right?
06:49Well, yeah. And I mean, it wasn't like it was just a little bit of money.
06:53I mean, my dad was fantastically wealthy.
06:56Sorry, your dad was? I just want to make sure. Your dad was fantastically wealthy?
06:59Yeah.
07:00Okay.
07:02In 1999, he would brag to me that he was making $20,000 a day in cash and options for the company he was working for.
07:15Well, I mean, not working for, but running in part.
07:19Right. Okay. Okay. So he was a real high flyer, right?
07:23Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Not just a little bit.
07:27Just by the by, it is a truism, of course, of life that everybody accepts, but few people believe.
07:34Like they accept it intellectually, but they don't believe it in their heart that money doesn't buy you happiness.
07:39Oh, yeah. It's funny, right?
07:41Because, I mean, he has, you know, an American Express Black Card,
07:47which means that one of these years he spent more than $250,000 in a single year.
07:51And yet, I mean, right now, he's deeply in debt and whatever, and it just buys, it just gets you nothing.
07:57It's just kind of weird how he just made all this money just to lose every dime, almost.
08:05And would you say, without going into details, would you say that the method by which he earned his money was just or unjust?
08:13And by that, I don't mean criminal.
08:15Oh, unjust. Absolutely. Let's see.
08:18I mean, when he was when he was working for.
08:25He did that for about 10 years.
08:27I think that he's probably more ethical.
08:33I don't know. It's really hard to tell.
08:35But I mean, I think I think the constraints that he was in kind of kept him under control because, I mean, there were there were punishments for for I don't know.
08:45Breaking the law and stuff like that.
08:49I mean, they take that kind of kind of thing seriously.
08:52To a certain extent, not not as much as maybe many people would think, but to a certain to a certain extent.
09:00But when he was at this this other place, I mean, he didn't he didn't make it after they forced him to resign, of course.
09:06Oh, yeah. I was the whistleblower.
09:09I knew what they were doing and all this stuff.
09:12But, of course, I mean, he happily took the millions when they were defrauding their institutional clients and doing just.
09:22Massive insider trading.
09:25Yeah, I mean, my that's that's that's how the company made its bones.
09:29They did every single trader on the floor was trading ahead of the the moves from the big clients.
09:38Right. Right. I mean, this is a gross generalization.
09:42But, you know, most brokers and I've worked at a brokerage company as a programmer, a bunch of lying scumwads, frankly.
09:50I mean, it's a really, really filthy way to make a living.
09:54Well, yeah.
09:57And I mean, it's it's funny because, you know, he said, you know, I'm in the technology side of the business or whatever.
10:03I mean, he made himself out to be this big technology guy.
10:06No, but he did. He doesn't even know how to type.
10:10Can I just ask you, I don't know if it's you or somebody else, but there's a fair amount of background crackling.
10:15Are you moving your microphone at all or moving around?
10:17Oh, yeah. Sorry. I'm just sort of.
10:20You just find a place for it and leave it there. That'd be great.
10:23Yes, sir.
10:25So he was, I mean, a high flying guy.
10:27Do you know if he went through because this is not uncommon in these kinds of people.
10:31Did he go through mood swings so there'd be an up and then a crash.
10:45Yeah. Yeah. I'd say so. Yes.
10:48Yes.
10:50And despite it funny, because I mean, that's that's like who he was.
10:53Yeah, I mean, right. Or he would go through.
10:55So manic episodes followed by these depressive episodes.
10:59Yeah.
11:00People would just ride out the storms, right?
11:01As best they could.
11:02Yeah, like yesterday in the call-in show, where his father would throw stuff around.
11:10That's what my dad would do sometimes.
11:12He'd come back from a business trip on Friday and he would often be gone for the weekdays
11:18for a lot of my childhood, I guess.
11:21That was just wonderful when he was gone.
11:22Just wonderful.
11:24Although, I mean, my mother was sort of like a living blob or something, or like a plant,
11:31just there to photosynthesize from PBS on a couch.
11:35It's just bizarre.
11:38He would come back on Friday and he'd be pissed off as hell.
11:43And of course, my mom would just accumulate all these catalogs and stuff, and they'd just
11:47pile up high on the kitchen table, and she'd throw her clothes on the floor and her closet.
11:53And he'd come home and he'd get really mad, and then he'd just throw all the papers and
12:00stuff on the floor.
12:01He'd go into the refrigerator for no reason and throw out all the food under the floor,
12:06breaking glass and stuff.
12:08And then he'd go into my room, get pissed off, and throw all my stuff on the floor.
12:13And he'd go into my mom's room with her closet.
12:16This closet was like his obsession, because she'd always leave it messy.
12:23I don't know, it just seemed like this closet was his nemesis.
12:28So he used a form of material perfectionism as his bullying weapon of choice, is that right?
12:34Yeah, yeah.
12:36Nothing was ever clean enough.
12:38We'd have a sweep and stuff after meals and stuff, and you'd do it for an hour.
12:46We'd have to clean for like an hour or so after every meal.
12:51And if there's a single crumb anywhere on the floor, like a speck of dust, you're a
12:58piece of crap.
12:59In harsher language than that, you're the most worthless human being imaginable for
13:05missing a speck somewhere.
13:07Right.
13:08Again, I'm no clinician, right?
13:11So this is just nonsense, amateur stuff.
13:13Be aware of that.
13:15It would seem to me that there's a certain kind of manic depression, and a certain kind
13:20of OCD, or obsessive compulsive disorder, that's floating around.
13:23And this is not to say that he's not responsible, right?
13:26But I'm just trying to get a picture of this kind of stuff.
13:29Because grandiosity and these kinds of mood swings go hand in hand, and that's why I asked
13:34about them.
13:35Yeah.
13:36Well, I think his relationship to me was, he wanted me to be something that he could
13:47brag about.
13:48Like, one of his favorite activities that he would tell me, oh, how we did this, and
13:53how he would impress his business friends with it.
14:01Which seems kind of weird.
14:02He doesn't really have any friends.
14:04So, I mean, the idea that he would care about how they thought of him is a little strange.
14:13But I mean, I guess that's who he was.
14:15Like, for example, well, I mean, this sort of stuff actually started in my infancy.
14:23I was born...
14:24I understand this sort of stuff, and I just want to make sure I understand which sort
14:28of stuff.
14:29Oh, yeah.
14:30I'm getting into it.
14:31So, like, he'd have me do, like, when I was an infant, I was born a little sickly, not
14:41super premature, but I mean, it wasn't great.
14:44And the way he shared his impression of me, and he thought this was a funny story, you
14:50know, he'd laugh, he said that when he saw me, he thought I was a blue chicken, and that's
14:58what he said.
14:59So, oh, my God, my son is a blue chicken.
15:02And he would laugh when telling the story.
15:06And my mother was in the hospital.
15:09She had some sort of bad hemorrhage, and the way he put it is she almost died, and he rescued
15:15her by alerting the doctors that his wife was bleeding to death or whatever.
15:19Sorry to interrupt, but I just want to make sure I understand the polarity here.
15:24Is it fairly safe to assume, and tell me if I'm correct or not, is it fairly safe to assume
15:29that your father was fairly brutal in his insults towards other people, but was himself
15:36hypersensitive to insult?
15:38Um, yeah, oh, absolutely.
15:42Yeah.
15:43He, that was his way of dealing with people, I guess.
15:46Well, not exactly dealing, but his way of bullying.
15:50Yeah.
15:51Anyway, go on.
15:52So, so anyway, what was an infant, I get out of the hospital, spending like a week in an
15:57incubator or whatever.
15:59And so, one of the first things he does is he takes me swimming with him in like a lap
16:07pool.
16:08You know, the way he tells the story is he would take me swimming, and I would just sort
16:16of cling to him, or hang onto the kickboard for dear life.
16:21And he would always tell the story as a joke, you know, as if it was funny.
16:27And he would smile, and, well, he'd take me out, and he'd say, and he described me as
16:35blue and shivering, and he was afraid that I would die.
16:42And so he rubbed me in a towel, convinced that I was dying or dead.
16:50And you know, he didn't just do this once, but many times, you know, it's like, even
16:55if it's apocryphal or exaggerated, you know, a tall tale, it's still pretty screwed up.
17:02But he wouldn't do stuff like that with me.
17:04Are you moving it at all?
17:06Oh, yeah, I'm just, I just scratched my head.
17:08I'm sorry.
17:09Okay.
17:10No problem.
17:11So, yeah, he liked doing that sort of thing with me.
17:17Like when I was probably around five on, he would take me running for very long stretches,
17:25seven or eight miles, up and downhill, I'd get, I mean, to drink, I would get one 12
17:36ounce bottle of Gatorade in the middle of the thing, you know, the, I guess, the workout,
17:43like every Saturday we do this.
17:46This was when we were living in Zurich.
17:49Sorry, just by the by, I mean, this just reminds me of, I mean, there's some similarities
17:55but some significant differences between our fathers.
17:57But when I was 16, I lived in Africa with my father for a while.
18:02And he took me, he was a geologist, so he walked for a living.
18:05And he took me on a hike through mountains.
18:07And it was the same thing, like he would, he would power because he just, that's what
18:10he did, was he hiked as a geologist.
18:13And I wasn't as fit then as he was.
18:16And I was just dragging my ass after, you know, we would climb like 2,000 or 3,000 feet
18:21up these parts in a day, just dying.
18:23And of course, it was Africa, so it's like 12 million degrees.
18:26And I was coming over from Canada, which wasn't.
18:28And it was just, and he did the same thing.
18:32He actually gave me a pebble to suck on and said, well, if you're thirsty, this will
18:36produce saliva.
18:38And it's just like, what the freak?
18:40And he would literally be like 200 or 300 yards ahead of me because I would be getting
18:45tired and getting and slowing down, right?
18:47He'd just power on ahead of me.
18:49Right, right.
18:49That's something my dad would do to, you know, let me know that.
18:53And you'd feel this, this real disapproval or embarrassment about your sort of lack of
18:57physical fitness or whatever, relative to his, you know, amazing vanity body or whatever.
19:02Anyway, I just wanted to mention that sort of reminded something of my own.
19:07Well, like every Saturday from when I was five on, I guess, later, I guess, probably
19:13after my fifth birthday, is we'd run up about 200.
19:19Like, we'd go down a hill about three quarters of a mile to a big, big stair.
19:28Because, I mean, they're all because, you know, the area is kind of hilly.
19:32It's like a valley and there's a lake.
19:34So, we'd go up about 200 stairs.
19:37Sometimes he'd make me run it up.
19:39Sometimes he'd let me walk it if it was raining and slippery.
19:41Because, I mean, he was afraid of slipping, I guess.
19:44Then we'd run up a dirt road, kind of twisting around to get to the Hollandbad, the public
19:53gym kind of thing.
19:54And then I guess we'd take karate lessons.
19:57And then he'd swim and he'd have me swim with him.
20:04And we did this kind of weird thing where he would fight me underwater.
20:09Like, you do karate with me underwater.
20:13And he would race me, too, swimming.
20:15Did that activity of karate underwater, did it hurt?
20:20Like, did he...
20:22No, not really.
20:23Okay.
20:23But, I mean, I don't know.
20:25I mean, because I kind of made it a sort of a focus to get used to pain.
20:33Because this was sort of, I mean, I kind of had to.
20:39Right.
20:41And, I mean, I think I get a picture.
20:43I mean, certainly, I have no doubt.
20:45Yeah, sure.
20:46And then after that, there'd be more running, right?
20:49So, yeah, no, this is all staggeringly abusive.
20:52I mean, if that, there's no question.
20:53Particularly starting at the age of five.
20:56So what is it that you got out of this interaction with your father when you sort of look back on
21:01how it settled down within you?
21:02What was it, what is it that you got out of it in terms of your understanding
21:06of the nature and morals of your father?
21:09Uh, I think it was framed to me as that, uh, I don't know, you...
21:15That this is what makes you a superior person.
21:19Sorry, but I understand.
21:21I mean, I understand that your dad was all about, you know, aim high and, you know, never
21:25give in and work hard.
21:26And, like, he was manic, right?
21:28So he's going to put these ridiculous standards.
21:31But, of course, he didn't have these same standards for himself as a father, right?
21:35So he's like, well, the important thing is that you run five miles.
21:37And that's called perfection.
21:39The important thing is not that I be a gentle, kind, and loving father.
21:42That has nothing to do with perfection, right?
21:45Yeah, well, it's like, I find it a little funny.
21:48I mean, like, gentleness and kindness in my dad.
21:50I mean, it's, it's ridiculous.
21:52It's just funny.
21:54Well, but it's not, right?
21:56Yeah, I mean, it's, it's not, it's not.
21:59Like, sorry to interrupt you.
22:00And I know it's a little startling.
22:01And I know you have a laughter defense, which, obviously, I understand and sympathize with.
22:07But it's not funny at all.
22:08I mean, this is horrible, right?
22:10This is an absolutely nightmarish and horrible existence.
22:13I mean, this is like a fucking Russian gulag, right?
22:18Yeah.
22:18And I find Solzhenitsyn very, very.
22:24I like the gulag Archipelago.
22:29Well, yeah, it's horrible that you identify with that, right?
22:32I mean, it's.
22:33Yes.
22:33Oh, yeah, I picked up on it very quickly.
22:37Oh, no, sorry.
22:41And I just want to go back for a second, because, and there's no correct or incorrect.
22:45It's just things that I'm noticing.
22:47But I'm sure I had asked you, what was your experience of this?
22:51And what did you get out of it?
22:52Um, oh, I guess, like, like, like when I get home, hang on, hang on.
22:59I wasn't finished.
23:00It's okay.
23:00Yeah, I said, what is your experience of this?
23:04And you said you replied, it was portrayed in the moment right now.
23:08Yeah, just now.
23:09Right.
23:10And this, I'm just pointing something out here, right?
23:12Because because we're trying to get a handle on the grandiosity side.
23:16Yeah, I feel separated.
23:18Okay, just hang on one second.
23:19Give me 30 seconds.
23:20Okay.
23:21Let me.
23:21Sure.
23:22So I had said, what did you get out of this?
23:26Or what was your understanding of the nature and ethics of your father?
23:29And you said, it was portrayed to me as right.
23:34Okay.
23:35And do you know why I stopped on that?
23:39Yeah, because those are, I guess, we, those are weasel words.
23:43No, it's not that they're weasel words.
23:45I believe you that it genuinely was portrayed to you as this.
23:49But I said, what is your experience?
23:51And you said it was portrayed to me as which is actually somebody else's propaganda, right?
23:56Yeah.
23:58So when I asked you what your experience, and this is not not a right or wrong,
24:00certainly no criticism, I'm just pointing out, right?
24:02Because we're looking for clues as to how to unravel the grandiosity.
24:05Okay, I was very proud of it for a long time.
24:08Right.
24:09Okay, so it was portrayed.
24:10So you're, where would you say you are with your experience of this?
24:15Like, in terms of comparison to any kind of remotely decent or non abusive parenting,
24:21relative to the childhood that you really wish you could have had filled with, you know,
24:25fun and laughter and intimacy and, and all that kind of stuff.
24:28And love, which there was nothing as a sadism, right?
24:31It's just a sadistic.
24:33Yeah, I find that completely unimaginable.
24:36Well, it's not completely unimaginable to you.
24:38I guarantee you that because if it were, you would feel no pain, right?
24:43Yeah, I guess.
24:45Well, no, I mean, that's an important point, right?
24:47Because if it were completely unimaginable to you, then you would have no standard, right?
24:55Right.
24:56So the fact that you have certain aftereffects from this nightmarish existence,
25:02it's because you do know that it is a, in your gut, you do know that it is a savage deviation and
25:10a nightmarish evil compared to any kind of reasonable or decent or loving parenting,
25:15which is not to say perfect parenting, but I mean, this is off the charts, right?
25:20Yeah.
25:26So, and you know, I guess my mother talked, said stuff about it, but saying things,
25:33what does it matter when, when she was aiding and abetting the whole process?
25:38Well, as you, you were listening to the call and show yesterday, right?
25:41Yeah, yeah.
25:45I just felt so angry at my mother again, just because I think,
25:51I don't know, I think I hate her more than even my dad, because she knew that it was wrong.
25:55Well, and she gave your dad children, right? She found him.
25:58Yeah, not just one child, but she tried to have children immediately after me and miscarrying
26:06twice. And then she had my sister years later.
26:11Right, right. And then when she had enough, she left, right?
26:16Yeah.
26:17But you had to still stick around, lunatic, right?
26:20That's right. That's right. And, you know, she, she hugged my sister when she, when she,
26:24when she told us that she was getting divorced, and she started, you know,
26:27you know, squirting out a little here, and I just hated her. I hated her. I hated her.
26:31Right, right. No, I mean, I understand that. Now, could your father, when he was in these phases,
26:39I'm guessing that at least for significant portions of his life,
26:42he could actually control his behavior, right?
26:45Sure, of course. If it was like, take your son to work day, you know, he was the most wonderful guy,
26:50you know, like a, like a, like a dinner meeting or something, you know, I'd be there and he'd be,
26:54he'd be polite and stuff, you know, so it wasn't like...
26:57And the reason for that, I mean, you know why I asked that, which is basically that if your
27:01father had a biochemical disorder, then there would be trauma that you would need to deal with.
27:07Like, if he became a biologically based schizophrenic, literally hereditary,
27:11literally became psychotic, you know, was carted off and had to be medicated with
27:17Thorazine or whatever. Like, if he, if he had a legitimate biochemical brain disorder,
27:21then you would still be traumatized, but there would not be the same sadistic intent, of course,
27:26right? Yeah.
27:28But since he can control his behavior, and he also knows how to portray a good father, right?
27:34Yeah. So, so he's completely responsible for what he did.
27:38Yeah. Okay. I mean, that's just an important thing to, to differentiate, right?
27:43He knew what a good dad was, and he could control his behavior and imitate, in a sense,
27:47a good dad, right? So he was in control of his behavior. Now, this is not to say maybe there
27:51was some biochemical basis to the manic depression, but he was able to control his behavior and to
27:57portray a good father in certain situations, right?
28:00Yeah. He thought he was doing much better than his father had done.
28:05He thought he was doing much better than his father had done.
28:10Right. But when, when it came to, for instance, like, so he worked in the
28:17securities industry. When he wanted to work in the securities industry, no doubt,
28:22he knew that there was certain knowledge that you had to attain, that you had to gain.
28:26And so he would go and take the securities course, he would go and study and so on, right?
28:31Yes, he has two law degrees.
28:32Two law degrees. Okay, so he knows that if you, if you want to become good at something,
28:39and you start from a position of no knowledge, that you have to go through a study process,
28:44right? Yes.
28:46And he admitted that his own father was not good, right?
28:54He wouldn't say that. He wouldn't say that, no. But he'd say that, I mean, he was,
28:59he attributed it to a leg problem that he, and his, in his, in his work as a doctor,
29:04that he was too busy treating patients to spend too much time to him. And also he had a,
29:10he got drunk too often. Okay. But he would say that he himself, your father did not have
29:15a great template about how to be a great father, right?
29:19No. You know, his parents beat him, beat the hell out of him.
29:22Okay. So, I'm just trying to give you the, the, the, the differentiations here,
29:30right? So that you can see, I hope, see your father a little more clearly.
29:33So he knows that when he's in a state where he needs knowledge to achieve some end,
29:38to become, to work in the securities industry, or to get, to become accredited as a lawyer,
29:42to pass the bar, that he, when he starts from a state of no knowledge, in which is to achieve a
29:46gain, an end, a goal, that he goes through a process of studying, right? Now, he also knows
29:53that he was not in a position of having great knowledge with regards to being a great father,
29:59right? Yeah. So, by his own logic, in terms of, if you wish to achieve a goal, you should do some
30:07studying if you lack the knowledge beforehand, he clearly should have done some studying about
30:12what it means to be a great father, right? Because he, he became a father and he certainly
30:16had time to prepare for that, right? He meets your mom, they date, they get engaged, they get
30:20married, they have kids, he's got years to prepare, right? Not, not just a few years. I mean, they met
30:26when they were 19. And my mother had me when she was 36. Okay, so they had like 27 years,
30:31sorry, 17 years to deal with this, right? Yeah. Okay. So your father had 17 years to prepare
30:38for fatherhood. And he certainly knew because he was not a homeless guy, he actually had gone
30:42through a process of study to get his law degrees and his securities certification and so on, right?
30:48And do you know, he ever pursued any knowledge about becoming a better parent?
30:55He might have read one book about it.
30:57So the effective answer is no, right?
31:00No, yeah, of course not.
31:01Right? I mean, that's like me saying, well, I read, I read, you know, I read Economics
31:06for sure.
31:11Okay, so that's just something to understand that in the areas in his life where he wished to achieve
31:15goals, he did the studying and the work and the requisite necessary stuff in order to achieve
31:20those goals. But when it came to being a parent, he actively avoided knowledge, right?
31:25Yes, of course. And he would always say that being a father was the most important thing in his life.
31:32That it was his highest value.
31:33Sorry, that isn't that that is funny, but it's really tragic, right?
31:37Because relative to the effort that he put into his career into his education, and so on,
31:42it was nothing, right?
31:44Yes. And my mother the same way. She put more effort into PBS than she put into me.
31:49Right, right. Right. And do you have a theory as to why they had children?
31:56He wanted them badly, I guess to abuse.
32:00But mom didn't. I think she wanted to have children to deflect abuse from her.
32:06So you guys were like the biological punching bags,
32:10so to speak, right? Like, I'm angry, and I can't get mad at people at work. So I'm going to come
32:14home and force march my kid up 500 flights a day.
32:18Yeah, because Goldman would fire him if he did what he did, if he treated
32:22his employees like he treated me, and how he treated my mother.
32:26All right. So okay, now we can start to work towards how this virus passed along.
32:32Now, yeah, you had used the word grandiosity. And what is your
32:36working definition, whether it's instinctual or emotional or linguistic is fine.
32:41What is your working definition of the term grandiosity?
32:44Just thinking that you're somehow innately superior to everybody around you.
32:51Okay, and what if you are? Is it I mean, let's say you're Einstein, right? And you say,
32:56Yeah, that's, that's something that's, that's, you know,
33:01got me into like, false humility, stuff like that. And you know, I was thinking a lot about
33:04this last night, is that, you know, maybe, maybe I'm not, I'm not that fantastic. And
33:10I'm just particularly good at avoiding suppression, just being defiant.
33:17I'm sorry, I didn't follow that last part at all. Could you try again?
33:20Just the way the way school works is, you know, they beat you down, they grind you into a paste.
33:26And I was just good at avoiding it.
33:30Good at being ground down into a paste?
33:32Yeah.
33:33Oh, no. But what does school have to do with it? I mean, your father was the one
33:37who ground you down into a paste, wasn't it?
33:40Yeah.
33:41Because you went to school, right? But, but,
33:43I mean, getting bad mark, I mean, I'd be dead, you know, getting an A-minus was horrible.
33:52It was like, the house would explode.
33:54Well, sure, because you were no longer serving the narcissistic vanity of your father, right?
33:59Yeah.
34:00His ego, which was dependent upon manipulating and controlling others' opinions,
34:05would be, would take a blow if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if,
34:13he felt that somebody thought that you were somehow inferior, which would then
34:19make him feel somewhat inferior, which would provoke the narcissistic rage, right?
34:23Yeah. But I mean, this, this kind of pisses me off. I mean, if, if, if he, if he was always
34:28saying that, you know, I was, I was, I was fantastic and all that, you know, why did,
34:32why did he put me through school? I mean, they, they, they skipped me ahead a grade
34:38when I was younger. Why didn't they, why didn't he press to keep me skipped ahead?
34:42Why didn't he take me out of the entire system? I don't understand why
34:46they had to subject me to this nonsense for so long.
34:49Okay. So I think, I think here we're getting to the core of the issue.
34:55Right. Yeah. So if you, if you have, and I understand this emotionally, right,
35:00but we have to sort of look at this philosophically. I mean, to me, that's always the
35:04out of the room. So you're saying, well, if this was the case, if they felt that I
35:09was a superior or this or that, then why didn't they provide, uh, you know, better
35:15services to me in terms of moving me ahead in school or this or that or the other. Right.
35:19Yeah. And, and you feel outraged or frustrated about that.
35:25And do you genuinely believe that you don't understand why that was occurring?
35:30No, I think I know why. Why? It was frightening to them.
35:35What was? It was frightening to them.
35:39Sorry, what?
35:41Um, I think intelligence was frightening to them.
35:48Well, but your intelligence wouldn't necessarily have anything to do with
35:53whether you were ahead in school, unless I'm missing.
35:56Yeah, you're right. Okay. Let's walk through this.
36:02Can you repeat the question?
36:03Sure. Um, well, um, I was repeating, I was sort of,
36:07you said I, you got frustrated, which I totally understand. And you said, I don't know why they
36:13didn't, you know, move me ahead more in school if education was such a value and I was so smart
36:18and this and that and the other. Right. Yeah. And that would have been a benefit to you. Is that
36:23right? Yeah, absolutely. Well, how would that have benefited them? Not at all.
36:31So I'm not sure. I mean, well, I don't know. It might have benefited them,
36:36but I'm not really sure. It doesn't, I don't really understand them very well.
36:40Well, I think you do, but they don't want you to, right? So, um,
36:44I start from the premise that everybody's a genius and everybody's a philosopher,
36:47and certainly true with regards to our own families, right?
36:51Yes. So, uh, I'll step you through a little bit here and we'll see if we can
36:55bang some fruit off the tree, so to speak. Okay.
36:59Okay. Okay. So let's just put some tentative labels on your parent,
37:09which is not to say that that's the sum total of their entire being or anything like that.
37:13But there are some things that we can definitely start with us in bedrock,
37:17right? So narcissistic and sadistic, because sadistic is narcissistic, right? But, um,
37:23it, that you only existed as a way of providing your parents a sense of power, right?
37:29Yeah. So they have no interest in you as an individual. You can't abuse a child. You can't
37:35laugh at him and call him a blue chicken. You can't take him when he's five for running five
37:39miles, which is completely lunatic, right? I mean, that's like you and I having to run 25 miles.
37:43It's crazy. No, not, not five miles, more like eight, nine.
37:47Okay. That really doesn't matter. I mean, yeah. And on top of a bunch of other stuff. So,
37:52I mean, it was like crazy. Okay. Now you don't need to get behind him pushing the cot. I'm just
37:56starting here, right? So yeah, don't worry. I'm sorry. But it's okay. So, so you, you can't have
38:04empathy for a child that you're treating in that kind of manner, right? You can't have empathy for
38:08somebody that you're terrifying by being five times their size and throwing shit around a room,
38:12right? Well, he's six foot five too. So again, you're behind pushing the cot. Just, I got it,
38:18right? Just, just trust me on this that I got that this is a nightmare, right? You don't have
38:22to put more nightmare in. I get that it's 100% nightmare. In fact, 150% nightmare. I have no
38:27problem with that. Okay. So given that your parents are sadistic and narcissistic,
38:37if you really got that in your core, there would be no reason to be frustrated at the
38:41mystery of why they didn't do something for your benefit. I'm not saying that it wouldn't be
38:46painful, but it wouldn't be confusing. Okay. I mean, that's sort of like saying,
39:00why isn't my torturer giving me a massage? I mean, that would be a crazy question, right?
39:09I'm not saying you're crazy, right? But that would be a question that wouldn't make much sense, right?
39:12Yeah. So what's happening is that
39:20when we have sadistic and narcissistic parents, we want to see the truth about them, because that
39:26will set us free of... Yes, I felt that very strongly. They don't want us to see the truth,
39:32right? No. And that's why, as I talk about in my book on truth, that's why they use principle
39:38and perfection and quality and cleanliness and excellence and all this other kind of crap.
39:45I just have high standards, so sue me, right? Yeah.
39:51And that's why they go to material or public kinds of show, right? I have two law degrees,
39:58I make $20,000 a day and crap like that, right? But you didn't want a dad who made $20,000 a day.
40:05You wanted a dad who'd give you a hug and talk to you like a reasonable human being, right?
40:12Well, he wouldn't. Very rarely, if he maybe had three glasses of wine in them,
40:19sometimes he could be pleasant. If there was somebody from outside the house
40:24at the table or something. Well, but that's not the definition of pleasant, right? That's the
40:28definition of... No, it's not. And it also is part of the sadist. So when sadistic parents are nice
40:33to you, it's part of the sadism because it says, I can be nice, I'm just not going to be nice,
40:38which is humiliating, right? Right. Because if they genuinely had no capacity to be nice,
40:43we would just as adults learn to recalibrate our standards, right? And say, well,
40:48you know, I can't play catch with a guy who's got no arms, right?
40:54So that's, you know, the niceness is part of the sadism, especially when they're nice to strangers,
41:00because then they're humiliating us even more, because they're saying, well, I'm going to scare
41:03the shit out of you and brutalize you. But then when this Jehovah's Witness come to the door,
41:08I'm going to laugh and have jokes, right? Right. So this Jehovah's Witness or whoever,
41:14this guy selling door to door, some cashier, some waitress, they're infinitely more important to me
41:19and get much, much better treatment from me than you do, right? Which makes you feel like an Adam,
41:24right? Right. So accepting, and sorry, and this stuff, again, with all the caveats about me being
41:35an amateur, right? But this stuff is what psychologists call character logic. It's the
41:41personality. It's not a defense anymore, as I write about in my novel, right? The defenses
41:47sometimes and actually depressingly often will overwhelm the very personality they originally
41:54attempt to, like, when you face a threat, you get defense, and the defense is there to
41:59original personality, but they will overwhelm the original personality and replace it, right?
42:03It's like a coup, so to speak, like a military coup. And when that happens, there's no return.
42:09And particularly, if your father did not go through any kind of phase of empathetic development,
42:17and this is very, this is a brain development. This occurs early on in childhood, really early
42:24on in infancy, but particularly mid-infancy to toddlerhood, where you get eye contact,
42:28where you get mirroring, where, you know, you smile, and your mother smiles back,
42:32where you roll a ball, and someone rolls it back, and you interact, and you are treated with empathy,
42:37and you learn to really recognize the existence of other human beings at a fundamental emotional
42:40way. That is a process of brain development. That is a period of brain development. And if it is
42:45missed, if you go through significant trauma during that time, you just don't have the capacity
42:51anymore. You can mimic it for periods of time.
42:55There is no empathy in a household at all, period.
42:58Right. And you can mimic that for a short period of time, as you can see, right?
43:05And if you're willing to do the work, then you can actually learn to go through some of those
43:13difficulties, go through some of that trauma, and learn to regrow some aspects of yourself. But
43:17it's kind of like there's a language phase, right? And if you're around two to three years
43:21old, if you miss that language phase, you never learn language very well. You can learn it to some
43:24degree, but it's just a part of the brain development. So if your father missed that
43:29and took no steps to deal with that later on in life, then there is going to be no part of him
43:35that empathizes. In fact, empathy is going to enrage him, right? Because it's going to bring
43:39back all the early trauma. Oh, yeah. That makes him so angry.
43:44Yeah, because he's going to perceive it as pitying. He's going to perceive it as putting
43:47him down, and he's going to try and level up by blowing up in rage, right?
43:51Right. That's like the worst kind of weakness to him.
43:56Right. Because that's what he so desperately needed and didn't get, and it exposes his
44:00vulnerability. And anytime he was vulnerable with his parents, he would get attacked. So
44:03vulnerability equals attack. He preemptively strikes by attacking first. I mean, this is all
44:07very dense and complex stuff, but the reality is that is his personality, certainly by now.
44:12After you've abused children, there's no coming back for you as a human being. There's no coming
44:17back. I don't mean like you get mad and you yell at your kid and then you apologize, right? Or
44:22maybe you spank your kid once and then you go, well, you know, that really is not a good way
44:26to do it. I'm going to find other ways. I'm not talking about being perfect. But if you
44:30systematically and sadistically torture a child, there's no restitution that is possible. And where
44:35restitution is impossible, forgiveness or an amelioration of the problem is impossible.
44:43Now, the grandiosity was, you say, this feeling that you are superior to everyone else.
44:50What is the definition of that superiority? I mean, we understand that for your dad,
44:54it was accomplishment and money, right? Education, accomplishment, money,
44:58all the outwards show of superiority. And what is it for you?
45:02I guess for me, it was academic achievement. And when I was younger,
45:11well, actually, no, not really even when I was younger, but I guess physical and sexual
45:15achievement, too. Okay, so getting good grades and being a man. Yeah, not just getting good
45:24grades, but just being. I wanted to be crushingly more intelligent than everybody else around me.
45:32Okay. And what do you mean by crushingly? That's an interesting way of.
45:36Just overpoweringly, just no more than they do in every single conceivable category. Just be so much.
45:52Or just to cultivate that appearance, even.
45:55Okay. But for the purpose of what? Like, what would that do for you?
46:00It would ward off attack.
46:03Well, it wouldn't ward off attack because it is an attack, right? Because you didn't want to be
46:06intelligent or learn things in order to generate a love of knowledge in other people, right?
46:13You want to. No, absolutely not. No, no. Yeah, no, I wanted to do it so that other people would
46:19feel small. Okay. And what did that ward off? So if you were unable to achieve that,
46:27what feelings arose in you?
46:31Just kind of nasty anger.
46:41Okay. And so if you were unable, like if you came across somebody who had five PhDs from Harvard or
46:47whatever, and they started lecturing. Well, I'd charm them, I think. I think I'd avoid getting
46:56into it. Yeah, I'd avoid getting up with them. Is that right? Yeah, I would. Yeah, with my ex's
47:05father. He's a top law professor at NYU. We could talk for hours. I managed to get him to go from
47:15I'm going to kill you to, you know, hugging me and loving me and picking him the, you know, the
47:23brightest person in Brooklyn, you know? Okay, so you feel that this is a kind of power. And I'm
47:29not saying that this is all what you feel or believe, but you believe this is a kind of power,
47:33right? Now, do you realize the exact opposite of power deep down? I mean, I don't know if you
47:38explored that aspect in yourself. Let me ask you a simple question, if that's not clear.
47:43Who's more free, the prison guard or the prisoner?
47:47Excuse me? One of the words was garbled. Sure. Who is more free, the prison guard or the prisoner?
47:57The prisoner. How so? Because the prison guard has to...
48:07I don't know. It seems like his behavior is more restricted.
48:09Well, I don't think that his behavior... And look, I mean, this is why I say everybody's a
48:15genius. This is just my first, you know... I mean, you've perfectly got the right answer. And I bet
48:22you, you know exactly why. This is that blink thing, you know, where you process a huge amount
48:26amazingly quickly. And you are obviously a very intelligent and very verbally skilled person.
48:31So you got the answer right away. Then it's tough sometimes to sift through how we got there, right?
48:37Yeah. Okay. Well, you're absolutely right that the prisoner is more free than the prison guard.
48:43And I can either step you through the answer, but I don't want this call to go on too long because
48:47we have lives to lead. But I'll just give you the answer as I see it. I'm not saying this is
48:50the answer. Okay. The reason that the prisoner is more free than the prison guard is that the
48:56prisoner does not have to lie to himself. Because if you're thrown in prison unjustly,
49:05you can at least sit in the moral truth of your situation. You don't have to propagandize
49:10or mythologize your situation, right? But if you are a prison guard, you actually and actively have
49:18to believe that the prisoner is evil, and you are virtuous, and you are standing tall for justice,
49:24and these guys are animals and scum and this and that and the other, right? So the prisoner at
49:29least can be free in his own mind. But the prison guard has to enter this distorted funhouse
49:34kaleidoscope mirror of justification and moral falsehood, right? Yeah. So he's not even free in
49:41his own mind. And of course, he's standing around guarding the prisoner all the time.
49:44But the prisoner at least can remain free in his own mind, right? Correct. So the reason that
49:51I was bringing this story up is because you said that you wanted to dominate other people and so
49:58on, right? By crushing them with your brilliance, right? Yeah. But they're more free, even if that
50:05works, even if they bow down before you or whatever, and worship your godlike intelligence,
50:10they're still much more free than you, because you have to pretend that you are superior when
50:16you're actually dependent upon other people's approval and sequins, right? That's not being
50:20free. Yes. So you have to lie to yourself that you're superior and that you're free and that
50:24you're one of these Nietzschean hyperborean gods, when in fact, you're enslaved to the good
50:28opinions of others, right? Yeah. And if those opinions evaporate, it's just I die, you know?
50:35Yeah. And the worst thing is, the worst thing is that you're not even enslaved to the good
50:41opinions of good people. Because I am. I mean, I love my wife to death. And if she ever thinks
50:47that I'm doing something wrong, I'm crushed, right? And we examine it, we explore it. She's
50:51always right. So that's good, right? There's nothing wrong with depending upon the good
50:54opinions of good people, because they can watch your back. Not good people, but unspeakably evil
51:00people. Well, I think unspeakably evil is another grandiose term, because I'm not saying, okay,
51:06I mean, that's just in my mind. But what you need to be is around weak people who've also
51:11been traumatized in their childhoods, right? Yeah. Right. Because a good and decent person
51:18who has any kind of caring about you would call you on your grandiosity. Why? Because it's not
51:23going to make you happy, right? And a good person who cares about you would be interested in your
51:27continued happiness, right? And would not want you to be enslaved to the positive opinions of
51:35weak and dependent people, right? Because that makes you kind of a little dictator. And it means
51:41that you can't be intimate, you can't be vulnerable, you can't be open, you can't be wise.
51:44And you can't experience the greatest joy in the world. And the greatest joy in the world
51:49is using your intelligence to light up other people's brains, not to put them down, right?
51:57Right. So somebody who really cares about you, wants you to be happy,
52:01would say, the path that you're taking, while it might give you immediate relief from anxiety and
52:09trauma and history and so on, is keeping you barred, is an iron insurmountable wall between
52:16you and the greatest joys in life, vulnerability, openness, honesty, wisdom, and the joy of using
52:24your obvious gifts to light the world, to inspire knowledge and the desire for truth in others,
52:31not to use it as a kind of vanity tool for propping yourself up in a false self kind of way,
52:37but to use that energy and that intelligence and those linguistic skill, and to judge your
52:42success not by whether other people view you as smarter, but by whether other people view
52:47themselves as smarter after interacting with you. That's the real crack, so to speak, in life. And
53:04people always ask me, how is it that you can stay so positive in what it is that you do? And that's
53:07because I know when they ask that question, they have not tasted the truly cosmic joy of lighting
53:13up somebody else's mind, of getting them to realize just how brilliant they are and just how wise
53:18they are deep down. That is unbelievably joyful experience. And I mean, to be frank, that's what
53:26I want for you. You have these incredible gifts. You obviously come from a very intelligent family,
53:32tragically flawed and dependent upon others, and tragically dictatorial and brutal and weak,
53:37right? Because the flip side of grandiosity is insecurity. That vanity and insecurity are the
53:41superstructures built on each other around a void of a true self in the middle. But what I want for
53:46you is the joy that comes from using your gifts to light other people's minds up, to get other
53:52people excited about the truth. Because that's the self-generating and self-sustaining process that
53:57actually heals and brightens up the world, right? You walking around or your dad walking around
54:03dominating weak people with your supposed brilliance does not light up the world, right?
54:07And that keeps a fundamental joy out of your life, away from you, that is, oh man, if I could give you
54:13five seconds of that joy, if I could wire that into people's brains, the joy of lighting up other
54:19people's minds and getting them excited about wisdom and truth and philosophy and knowledge
54:23and virtue, this sort of paltry satisfaction and immediate anxiety avoidance that comes
54:30from dominating other people would be completely unappealing.
54:35It would be gross compared to that joy, if that makes sense.
54:47Yeah, it makes a lot of sense.
54:48Right. And there's a surrender to, I mean, ego is not about dominance, in my opinion,
54:56this is just my nonsense opinion, so I take it for what it's worth, right? But
55:02ego is about surrendering to the truth, right? Aligning yourself with the truth,
55:05being a vessel for the truth. This all sounds ridiculous and quasi-mystical, but there it is,
55:09right? That you want to be a doctor not to make other people stupid about medicine,
55:15but to make them excited and interested and able to achieve their own health, right? You
55:18want to be a nutritionist so that other people become healthy in terms of their eating choices.
55:22You don't want to be a nutritionist so you can say, well, I eat really well and you people
55:26eat like crap, but never tell them how to eat better, right? Right. You want to be a nutritionist
55:33who shows the effects of healthy eating and who also gets other people excited about eating better
55:39and more healthy and so on. And all of that joy is nothing compared to the joy of lighting people
55:44up about truth and virtue and philosophy. And if you align yourself toward that goal,
55:51right? And if you say, I am going to use my gifts in the service of a brilliant species that is
55:58tragically crushed by history and institutions of the family, the church, the state, I am going
56:04to align my gifts to the service of freeing humanity, of lighting up the minds of humanity,
56:10of expanding the horizons of humanity. There is nothing that is going to make you happier and
56:15there is nothing that is going to bring more love and joy into your life than that. And I want that
56:20for you and you certainly have the gifts to be able to achieve it. I think everybody does, but
56:25you in particular are closer because of your intelligence that is innate and language skills
56:30and so on. And you are closer to tapping into that. Again, I think everybody is a genius and
56:33everyone is a philosopher, but I think that what you want, you have to have a carrot on the other
56:39side of dealing with grandiosity, right? Because it is going to be painful and it is going to be
56:42destabilizing. What is the carrot on the other side? The carrot on the other side is the joy
56:46of lighting up people, the joy of bringing wisdom and joy to people's life and the love that that
56:51generates in the world towards you, right? It is love in your personal relationships. It is a
56:56wonderful and happy marriage. It is being a noble and just and beautiful father whose children are
57:01going to worship you in the right way and for healthy reasons. And it is going to be the
57:05satisfaction at the end of the day that comes from turning on 50 lights or five lights or one
57:10light in the world, right? Not leaving a trail of people who feel smaller after you have passed
57:22through their lives, who feel diminished, right? Who feel weaker, who feel less, who feel like...
57:27Because that is a little bit like turning into your dad, which you do not want to do, right?
57:32No.
57:32Deep down, that would be the last thing that you would want to do is make people feel like
57:36you did when your dad was around, right? Right.
57:43That is it for my speechifying. I just wanted to... Because why would you want to deal with this? I
57:47am just saying that on the other side is a love and a joyful existence. And I am not saying you
57:51do not experience joy now and so on, but this is beyond what you can think of before you taste it.
57:58And I know because I lived on the other side for a long time and now I live on this side and
58:02oh man, it is a beautiful thing.
58:11Thank you. This was lovely.
58:13Well, I am glad that it was helpful. I know I did not give you anything particularly practical
58:18to work on, but I think the first thing to do is to figure out what the goal is. Why would you
58:21want to climb over this barbed wire? And I hope that I have given you some sense to the beauty
58:25that is on the other side. How are you feeling now at the end of this conversation?
58:30I am feeling a bit clearer.
58:37Good. Okay. Well, I guess I will try and quit while I am ahead. And if you want to do a follow
58:41up, you can mull on this for a bit. If you want to do a follow up, I am more than happy, but I
58:44can give you some more practical ways to achieve it. But I just wanted to give you a sense of the
58:48purpose rather than the... If you give a man a why, says Nietzsche, he can bear almost any how,
58:54and the problem is with challenging these demons within us that sometimes we really don't have a
58:59sense of the why. And when the why fades, so does the how and the means and the goal and the desire
59:04and the steps and so on. So if you keep that glory in your sights, then you can get there and you
59:12will. Sure. That makes a lot of sense. Okay. Well, listen, again, all the sympathy in the world.
59:23This was a truly nightmarish existence that you grew up in. Obviously, you know what I would say
59:28with regards to your family. I'm not sure exactly what your circumstances are with them, but these
59:33are not people that I would have in my life. No, I've broken with them. Yeah. Okay. Okay, good.
59:38Well, now you can start to build a new world out of the crater, and I hope that you will.
59:46Thanks so much. Thank you. Keep me posted about how it goes. Okay. Have a nice day.