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00:00Jean-Yves Dutrieu is a professor of geopolitics and a former deputy representative of France
00:05to the United Nations.
00:06He joins me now to talk a bit more about all of this.
00:10Jean-Yves, what do you think about this reform of the UN Security Council that was proposed
00:14by the French president, expanding the UN Security Council from five to 11 permanent
00:19members?
00:20Is it a good idea?
00:21Yes.
00:22By the way, it's not new.
00:24We have said that for the last 20 years.
00:27When I was deputy ambassador in New York beginning of the 2000s, it was already a French proposal.
00:35We support, as it was said, Germany, Japan, India, Brazil, and now two African countries.
00:44There is a need to enlarge the Security Council for it to better correspond to the reality
00:50of the world of today.
00:52We are no longer in 1945, but today.
00:56It's clear that we need more dialogue with the South, with Africa, with India, big countries
01:01like this, in order to be able to have, you know, joint decision on peace and security.
01:09So given all of that, I mean, will it ever happen or is the Security Council just too
01:13elitist to let it happen?
01:17I think the U.S. position has evolved.
01:20That's good.
01:21But now we have to convince China and Russia.
01:24That's perhaps much more complicated.
01:26For instance, Russia, China could oppose to the membership, permanent membership of Japan
01:33or even of India, because they are more or less a strategy enemies.
01:38So we need to have the agreement of the five permanent members in order to enlarge the
01:45group of the member of the Security Council.
01:49That's a challenge.
01:50It is a challenge.
01:51But do you think it will ever happen or is it just a pipe dream?
01:55I am not that optimistic, as I said earlier, after 20 years of discussion.
02:02Given the fact that the world of today is much more divided than the world of 2000,
02:08we saw that in Ukraine or in the Middle East, I'm not overconfident that it will happen
02:14soon.
02:15Well, this is in regard to the Security Council.
02:17But what if we broaden it out?
02:18I mean, what about the U.N. as a whole?
02:21Is it still relevant today?
02:24I think it's relevant.
02:26Never before has been more useful direct contact between ambassadors, ministers, head of state
02:33and government.
02:34The world is very dangerous.
02:36If we don't speak to each other, even if we are not able to reach consensus in a minute,
02:42it's always good.
02:43Look, Macron spoke with the president of Iran yesterday in New York.
02:49So U.N., it's a forum where you can speak even to those that you never meet.
02:56You can meet them in New York.
02:58And besides that, speaking about climate change or economic development, there are a lot of
03:05things done in the U.N., including, by the way, in the World Bank and the IMF.
03:12So all these institutions should be preserved in spite of the fragmentation of the world
03:19of today.
03:20Absolutely.
03:21But then what would you say to critics who perhaps say the U.N. doesn't really seem to
03:25be doing anything, particularly in war-torn countries, besides making calls for things
03:30like ceasefires that never happen?
03:33The problem is not the U.N.
03:35The problem is a lack of consensus between the regional powers.
03:40Look, Middle East, you have Iran, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and others.
03:46Look on Ukraine.
03:48You have Russia.
03:49So lack of consensus between regional powers and lack of consensus between big powers.
03:56And this is the issue of veto.
03:58Russia has vetoed many times any decision, resolution of the Security Council on Ukraine.
04:05The U.S. has vetoed some resolution, recent resolution about Gaza and Israel.
04:11So when you abuse of the veto, you are not able to reach a consensus.
04:15And this is not because of the U.N.
04:18This is because of the lack of cooperation between big powers.
04:23Given that, I mean, here we are almost at the one-year anniversary of the war in Gaza.
04:27Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister, is going to be addressing the U.N. tomorrow,
04:30the Palestinian president speaking later today.
04:33Is there anything that he can say, the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, that might get someone
04:37like Benjamin Netanyahu to change his mind, get the international community to do more?
04:43The problem is the policy of Netanyahu.
04:46On the one hand, you have the September, the 7th of October last year, terrorist attack
04:53of Hamas and killing 1,200 Israeli, including French people, by the way.
05:00But now you have this war, as you said, nearly one year of war in Gaza with a lot of collateral
05:07victims.
05:08And that should stop.
05:09And by the way, it's interconnected with what is happening today between Hezbollah and Israel,
05:16because Hezbollah is launching missile rockets against Israeli civilians in so-called solidarity
05:24with Hamas.
05:25You see how everything is interconnected.
05:27So it's very complicated.
05:29If there is no good cooperation between big powers, why not Russia, China put pressure
05:34on Iran for Iran, put pressure on Hezbollah, and the U.S. put pressure on Netanyahu to
05:40end all this, not to speak about moderate Arab countries like Egypt, Saudi Arabia and
05:46so on.
05:47So the problem is the fact that some in Israel and in Hamas and Hezbollah consider that only
05:55violence could settle a conflict.
05:59Jean-Yves, thank you for sharing your expertise with us.
06:01Jean-Yves Dutrieu, thank you very much.