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00:00Well, as I understand him, I'm here to meet a truther, one of the people that support
00:05Stephen Avery and his cause.
00:07Basically, I just want to ask him some questions about how he dealt the case, some of the stipulations
00:11that he put in.
00:12I don't blame him.
00:13I mean, if I believed that what was showed on Making Murder actually happened, I'd be
00:21pissed too.
00:22I feel nervous, but I'm also excited because I think I can hopefully get some answers.
00:27Loosely, it might be called a debate, but I don't really see it like that.
00:31I see it as more of an opportunity to educate.
00:35As a DA, I seek justice.
00:37And you did not seek justice here.
00:38You did not seek justice because you looked away from motive.
00:42I looked at the guy who had all the evidence pointed to him, and I'm not going to apologize
00:46for that.
00:47You had tunnel vision.
00:48I know.
00:49I understand.
00:50You just said it perfectly.
00:51I had tunnel vision.
00:52Exactly.
00:53You saw evidence.
00:54I had the guy who committed the crime.
00:55This is what you said.
00:56You did not seek justice here.
00:57Let's go over here.
00:58You had tunnel vision.
01:27You did not seek justice here.
01:28Let's go over here.
01:29You did not seek justice here.
01:30Let's go over here.
01:31You did not seek justice here.
01:32Let's go over here.
01:33You did not seek justice here.
01:34Let's go over here.
01:35You did not seek justice here.
01:36Let's go over here.
01:37You did not seek justice here.
01:38Let's go over here.
01:39You did not seek justice here.
01:40Let's go over here.
01:41You did not seek justice here.
01:42Let's go over here.
01:43You did not seek justice here.
01:44Let's go over here.
01:45You did not seek justice here.
01:46Let's go over here.
01:47You did not seek justice here.
01:48Let's go over here.
01:49You did not seek justice here.
01:50Let's go over here.
01:51You did not seek justice here.
01:52Let's go over here.
01:53Let's go over here.
02:17After I completed the first season of Making a Murderer,
02:20I wasn't sure if Stephen Avery was guilty.
02:22was guilty, because it wasn't clear. I don't think any questions were answered.
02:27We understand that we left viewers with unresolved questions. Yeah, we had a lot
02:32of questions. I don't know what is happening, and I kept hoping the next
02:37episode would explain it. And, you know, it's not our job, Laura, and my job to
02:42answer those questions. I didn't want to start reporting on this until I
02:45understood what I was reporting on, because everybody was reporting on the
02:48documentary. Everybody was trying to extrapolate what people said. I don't
02:52think anyone can argue with the fact that Making a Martyr left us with a lot
02:56of questions and very few answers. And actually, I think that's one of the
02:59reasons that it was so successful, because it didn't just end when the
03:02final credits rolled. People wanted to find the answers to those questions.
03:08I started researching the case, and I started to look for evidence that would
03:12prove this framing defense. I think it was very important to determine
03:17if that happened. I was fairly convinced that the police made a mistake in this
03:23case, overstepped some alternative suspects. There was maybe some bias, but
03:28most importantly, the police missed the mark on this, and they missed it in a big way.
03:39I guess I would say that I always wanted to be in law enforcement growing up.
03:44I received a degree in criminal justice, and after that I worked traffic patrol, and from
03:49there I went to the Wisconsin Department of Justice Division of Criminal
03:53Investigation, also known as DCI. I started out working as a narcotics agent,
03:58and from there I went into financial crime, white-collar crime, and government
04:03corruption. And we actually policed the police at times. I did some internet
04:07crimes against children work, and then I got into the death investigation or
04:12homicide area and retired in 2011.
04:18Saturday, November 5, I was at home and received a call from my supervisor
04:23advising me that Teresa Hallbach's vehicle had been located on the Avery
04:29salvage yard, and that the Calumet County Sheriff's Department was requesting
04:34DCI's assistance. We were going to have two lead investigators, or co-lead
04:39investigators, myself and Investigator Mark Wiegert from the Calumet County
04:43Sheriff's Department.
04:50The scene had been secured, as best as you can secure a 40-acre scene. I had never
04:56been there before. It's a rather large salvage yard.
05:0030, 40 acres, thousands of cars, buildings, outbuildings, residences, shops,
05:07garages. There was a lot of searching to do.
05:11You get a little taken aback at what you're going to be dealing with here
05:15initially. The logistics of protecting that scene and processing it, as well as
05:23conducting the investigation.
05:25Hi, Lori, this is Jim.
05:27Hi, Jim. Detective Remeker is asking that you and Jacobs come out to Avery's auto.
05:34There were two law enforcement agencies that were present at that time.
05:38There was Calumet County Sheriff's Department, who initiated the missing
05:42person investigation on Teresa Hallbach. And there was a Manitowoc County
05:47Sheriff's Department, because her vehicle was found in their jurisdiction.
05:51Teresa lived in Calumet County, and so her mother, when she was missing, called
05:55that particular Sheriff's Department to report her missing on November 3rd.
05:58However, once her vehicle was found two days later at the salvage yard, the
06:01investigation obviously became the responsibility of Manitowoc County
06:04Sheriff's Department.
06:06Saturday comes. My wife and I are both off, I believe, that day. Somewhere around
06:12four o'clock, I get a call. It is the patrol supervisor. He requests that I
06:18come into work. They're providing security at the Avery's salvage yard, and
06:24they need every able body that they can get a hold of. It really wasn't like I
06:30could say, well, no, I have plans. It was like, you're coming into work, and what
06:35time can you be here?
06:37And so you knew then that a determination had already been made before you
06:42arrived, that there was a conflict of interest, or an appearance of a conflict
06:46of interest, for Manitowoc County to investigate Mr. Avery.
06:51Correct. Manitowoc was going to back out, mostly due to the fact that Stephen
06:57Avery had a lawsuit against them.
07:00He said, well, it may not go well if Manitowoc County Sheriff's Office is
07:06again investigating a member of the Avery family.
07:11So for that reason, the lead investigation authority had been turned
07:15over to Calumet.
07:17Yes.
07:19But what happens when the evidence is found by the people that aren't supposed
07:22to be there, and that you told the media they're not going to be there?
07:26During the early stages of the investigation, there were press
07:28conferences that were held. The people that ran the press conferences were the
07:32sheriff of Calumet County, Jerry Poggle, and the district attorney from Calumet
07:36County at that time, Ken Kratz.
07:40Why lie about the Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department being involved? In
07:44those in those press conferences, why do you lie?
07:48I think Making a Murder reviewers came away with the impression that nobody
07:51from Manitowoc County was supposed to be involved at all in the Teresa
07:54Hall back investigation. And yet not only were they still very much involved,
07:59but they were also the officers that were finding a lot of the important
08:01evidence.
08:03The department that should not have been involved was very involved, but not
08:07only their involvement, it's them hiding their involvement.
08:11In Making a Murder, Sheriff Poggle from Calumet is stating that the only role
08:17that Manitowoc played was to provide resources, to provide equipment. When we
08:22needed something, they went and got us that, you know, that's all they did.
08:26They provided that piece of equipment, and that's their role and their only
08:31role in this investigation.
08:34But prior to that, the fifth, the sixth, the seventh, and the eighth, I think
08:38there were at least three or four where they talked about the role that
08:41Manitowoc and other counties played.
08:43This wasn't like it was just Calumet and Manitowoc. The place was swarming
08:48with cops from almost the very beginning.
08:54Our department will be supported by the State Patrol, the Manitowoc County
09:01Sheriff's Department, State. They have provided numerous agents to aid and
09:09provide assistance to our agency and the Manitowoc County Sheriff's
09:12Department. The Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department has been
09:16terrific as far as providing local resources, their expertise. Individuals
09:21from my agency, individuals from the Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department,
09:25and I have. Nobody ever said to Manitowoc County, hey, you guys off the
09:29property. They were clearly allowed to be on the property because they were
09:33on the property.
09:35The truth is they were very much allowed to be involved in the
09:37investigation. Obviously, it was taking place in their county, but internally
09:42the superiors had decided maybe let's not lead this investigation.
09:46By investigation, Calumet County was going to be doing interviews, obtaining
09:52subpoenas and search warrants, examining records and conducting the searches.
09:56Manitowoc County was going to assist in that process. For example, if certain
10:01resources were needed during searches, they would have manpower that they
10:04could provide if if we needed that.
10:07And the Manitowoc District Attorney took it even a step further.
10:10Manitowoc County District Attorney Mark Rohr said on the first day of the
10:15search of the Avery property that he did not want any Manitowoc County
10:18officers on the property without somebody else with them. He did that to
10:23avoid any perceived conflicts of interest due to that thirty six million
10:27dollar lawsuit Avery had filed against the county.
10:31It was Manitowoc County officials that made that decision themselves. No one
10:35demanded it or required them to hand over the investigation or required that
10:39either Calumet officers or a DCI agent be with them at all times. So if the
10:44prevailing belief was that officers were somehow involved because they wanted to
10:48plant evidence, then why didn't they just lead the investigation themselves
10:51like they were allowed to do?
10:53As being one of the owners of the business, would it be a fair idea that
11:03you'd have a pretty good idea of what kind of vehicles you had in the salvage
11:08yard? Yes.
11:10Now, were you surprised when they found this Toyota RAV4 that appeared to be
11:17Teresa Halbach's vehicle?
11:18Yes, I was.
11:20I called Investigator Wiegert and I told him the VIN was confirmed. He was on
11:27his way with Sheriff Poggle. Eventually some other investigator showed up. Earl
11:33Avery showed up on a four wheeler.
11:36Did you even have any idea that that vehicle was there?
11:39No, and I didn't after I went down there to see what was going on. I still
11:44didn't know that it was down there. I still couldn't see it.
11:48I was down there for an hour until they pointed it out to me. Then I finally
11:53seen it.
11:54The car was covered with branches and a car hood and some plywood as if in
12:01attempt to conceal it.
12:02These cars parked along here are kind of older looking. The paint was faded.
12:12They look like they belong there in the salvage yard. The RAV4 looked a little
12:17different. It was shiny.
12:19Tell us how you got down there.
12:21He drove down there and he put it back by the trees and covered it with
12:29branches and a hood.
12:31Who put the stuff on the car?
12:33We both did.
12:35Who put the hood on the car?
12:38He had one side and I had the other.
12:40The Rambler hood and some fence posts were leaned up against the car. The
12:50other cars didn't have that sort of stuff around them. So it looked a
12:55little odd.
12:57Why camouflage it? Why not just park it in the driveway?
13:00Because if it was parked in the driveway or the salvage lot, it would be like
13:04every other car in the salvage lot. It would be hidden. But what stuck out like
13:06a sore thumb? Something with boards on it and something with a branch on it and
13:09a big ass trunk on it.
13:11You know that one day there was planes flying around and my vehicle, you
13:16wouldn't be able to see it because it was shiny. It was new. It was a 99. And
13:21we don't put them down there if it's new. So it would have stuck out.
13:26If I camouflaged it, I would hide the RAV4 sticker on the back. I mean, I'm
13:29just saying. If I wanted to...
13:30I'm saying why camouflage it at all if you need it to be found? If you're a
13:34killer wanting to set up a Sieben Avery, you need that car to be found.
13:38It'll be found. You don't think it'll be found because it had a board on it?
13:41If you need it to be found, not camouflage it makes more sense than
13:45camouflage it. You don't agree with that?
13:47I don't agree with it when it comes to a junkyard, when every other car is
13:49uncamouflaged. If I wanted a car to fit in, I would just park it in the
13:53junkyard and leave.
13:54Do you know what was different about the Haubach SUV compared to the other
13:58cars that were around?
13:59No license plate on it.
14:03One of the teams found Teresa Haubach's license plates. They were not
14:08on her vehicle when the vehicle was found. They found them not far from
14:12Steven's residence, down a road, in the back seat of a vehicle. And they were
14:18curled or bent in upon themselves.
14:23From talking to Steven as far as how they operate the salvage yard, he told
14:27me they take the license plates and they curl them up when they rip them
14:30off.
14:31They collected those and they did run DNA tests. We're not able to get any
14:38identifying profiles or anything like that.
14:42If you're taking the position that the police want to put Teresa's car in the
14:47Avery auto compound, right? There is no reason to take off the license plates
14:55and stuff those in another car.
14:59And then go out of your way to hide them closer to Steven's house and risk him
15:03seeing you or somebody seeing you.
15:05You would want to leave them on the vehicle so that you can identify the
15:08vehicle and specifically who it belongs to.
15:23Approximately what time did you arrive at the location?
15:27It was about 4pm.
15:29That day, November 5, when dogs alerted on the RAV4, it was sometime around
15:34that time, I believe, that we looked in the RAV4.
15:39We primarily were looking to see and make sure that Teresa wasn't in there
15:42or any obvious evidence.
15:45The extent of my examination of the inside was shining a flashlight through
15:49the windows.
15:51Did you see any evidence of any blood in the vehicle?
15:56No, I didn't.
15:59The stains that were in there were difficult to see. I mean, they're dried
16:02and they're darker and it's shadowy in there and not well lit.
16:06So it's not something that we were going to see.
16:09The glass was wet from the rain.
16:12So there's a lot of glare.
16:14Of course, because the dog alerted on the vehicle, we assumed there was some
16:18sort of human remains in there and that likely it was probably blood.
16:23Were any efforts undertaken at that time to process the vehicle?
16:29No.
16:30In this case, you're not going to go inside the vehicle.
16:33You do not want to disturb or affect any potential evidence that's in there
16:37because had they done that, the criticism would have been great.
16:41And sometimes it's damned if you do and damned if you don't.
16:44The other side is always going to be able to criticize you.
16:47And oh, why didn't you look in the car?
16:49But then if you look in the car, oh my gosh, you shouldn't have done that.
16:52You could have disturbed evidence.
16:55The best thing we could do is protect it from the weather at that point.
16:59And then get it back to the laboratory where we could put it in the garage and
17:02we'd have all the experts and trace evidence and blood collection at
17:07the lab to do their jobs.
17:10The main point on the 5th, OK, we have a vehicle.
17:14We have to get that to the crime lab to process.
17:17And we have to search these buildings.
17:19We have to see if we can find any trace of Teresa.
17:23One of the first things you do at a scene like this is you need to make your scene
17:29safe because we're going to be bringing other officers in there and evidence
17:32technicians and crime lab personnel.
17:36And so that's part of that search.
17:38And what were we looking for?
17:40We don't know what happened.
17:42We just know we have a missing person.
17:43So we're looking for Teresa.
17:45We talked about it.
17:46We tried to figure out who was going to do what, who was going where, what was our
17:50what was our priority at that time.
17:53The most important resource was officers or investigators that were trained in
17:58evidence searching, collection, processing and packaging, et cetera.
18:04I'm an evidence tech, Lieutenant Link is an evidence tech, Sergeant Colburn is an
18:09evidence tech. I had thrown some other evidence processing equipment in my car
18:15when one of our detectives came up to me and said, oh, you're not going anywhere
18:22just yet. When initially being told that you could leave or that you were you were
18:28in fact packing up to to leave, who was it that approached you with other duties?
18:37Detective Ramaker.
18:39I had offered them the services of myself and Lieutenant Link and Sergeant Colburn
18:45to to give them a hand.
18:47Plus, we had all of our equipment out there.
18:49Ramaker had offered the use of their evidence techs, and we accepted that offer
18:55because we we we needed that help.
18:58Katima County is a small county.
19:00TCI is not a big agency and we're not evidence collection techs.
19:03We're investigators.
19:05You hear this criticism over and over again.
19:06Why do you see the same names of the same police officers involved in so many different
19:10things? Well, because real life is not like the movies.
19:13This is a very small town.
19:15They don't have this unlimited budget.
19:17And the salvage yard alone is positively massive.
19:20It has four residences, three very large buildings, thirty eight hundred vehicles that
19:25had to be searched thoroughly and not to mention stacks of crushed vehicles that had to
19:29be pulled apart. So you need a lot of police officers to be wearing a lot of different
19:33hats. You sent the first team to Mr.
19:37Avery's because you said that was the obvious place to start based on several reasons.
19:45When we're sitting there trying to make a decision as it's coming on seven thirty at
19:49night on the Avery's salvage yard, where are we going to go with our searchers?
19:54Well, Steven Avery is where we went.
19:57At that point, the statements were already inconsistent.
20:01He set up the appointment.
20:04Bobby saw her walking towards his trailer and now her vehicles on the property.
20:09I think that's going to be one of the first places that they're going to search.
20:15The person who last saw that person alive is a pretty logical place to start.
20:21Saturday night, Sergeant Tyson from Calumet County gave us the assignment, said we are
20:28to go to Steve Avery's trailer.
20:30Right now, this is still a missing persons case.
20:33We don't know what happened to her, but her vehicle is on their property.
20:38To be careful about the perceived conflict of interest, we had someone from Calumet County
20:46or DCI on that search also.
20:51Calumet County Sergeant Bill Tyson said the lead investigators in the case told him to
20:56supervise three Manitowoc County Sheriff's officers as they searched Steven Avery's
21:01trailer. To go with them into the Steve Avery trailer and to document what they were
21:08doing, take notes.
21:09And if evidence was seized by them to take custody of all the evidence.
21:15They do a search. I wouldn't necessarily classify it as a complete and thorough search,
21:18only because they don't necessarily have what they're looking for.
21:22I was looking for any evidence that would substantiate or eliminate her having been
21:29there. By no means were we ripping the place apart, looking for minute trace evidence.
21:35We weren't. Did we check between the mattress and the box spring?
21:39Yes. Did we look under the bed?
21:41Yes. In the closet?
21:42Yes. They see some blood, a vacuum cleaner, a carpet cleaner.
21:48They noted two rifles on the wall above Steven Avery's bed.
21:53What they classified as pornography, homemade nude pictures, I think, and some magazines.
21:59Sergeant Colburn concentrated his search on the bookshelf and the desk.
22:05The handcuffs and the leg irons, who knows if her DNA isn't on these?
22:11We took those because they were kind of in plain view on the bookcase where we later
22:17found additional evidence.
22:20They search and they leave.
22:23They have no, no idea that I'm going to send another team in there to do another search
22:30yet that week. So if one of them was planting a key, they'd have to do it then, because
22:36to their knowledge, that's the last time they're ever going to be in that trailer.
22:40You are the watchdog here.
22:43You were the custodian, the representative of Calumet.
22:47You made sure that none of those officers could have planted anything.
22:52Right? I watched him to the best of my ability.
22:56It wasn't as though it was just James Lenk and Andy Colburn sneaking around with maybe
23:01one Calumet County sheriff's deputy who is also in on the conspiracy.
23:05They were allowed to be in this support role.
23:07They weren't there when the Bernstein thing happened.
23:11Lieutenant James Lenk and Sergeant Andy Colburn had absolutely nothing to do with Steven's
23:15wrongful conviction back in 1985 when Penny Bernstein was assaulted on the beach in Two
23:19Rivers. But despite this, Making a Murderer seemed to be setting the stage that somehow
23:23they were the villains, which is also the same thing that the defense team did in the
23:26trial. The defense team for Steven Avery, their theory was really based upon Colburn
23:34and Lenk being the two that framed Avery for this whole planting or framing to save the
23:40thirty six million dollars.
23:43It was unbelievable to me that they would do that.
23:45On the other hand, they're really good attorneys and Steven had laid out his defense
23:51already before they got on board that he was set up.
23:55Well, you think that the sheriff's department is framing you because of the lawsuit,
23:59right? That's what I think.
24:00Okay. During the court proceedings, I know the issue of using Andy Colburn and Jim
24:07Lenk was criticized.
24:10Why are they there in the first place?
24:12They're there because they didn't tell anybody they were deposed.
24:15Without you telling Mr.
24:18Fassbender, Mr.
24:19Weger, Sheriff Poggle about the deposition, there's really no way they would have known
24:26about it. Would they have?
24:28No, sir. So my thought process was, oh, they're dirty.
24:34These terrible men were getting deposed, getting sued for thirty six million, and then
24:38all of a sudden they're involved in a suspicious crime by the same man, right?
24:43James Lenk, Andy Colburn, they were involved in the old case and here they are again in
24:47this new case.
24:50You're saying that even if you had known that Lenk and Colburn had been witnesses in
24:54the civil lawsuit three weeks earlier, deposed in Mr.
24:58Avery's civil lawsuit, you would have still assigned them to go search Mr.
25:02Avery's residence?
25:03There's more to the answer.
25:04You want? Yes, I'll tell you.
25:05Yes, right now. But there's more to that answer.
25:08My answer then is the same as it is now.
25:11We were in a scene that we needed those types of resources.
25:15We had no problem with using those officers in that type of support
25:20role. I think the line was crossed when they were being deposed and they had
25:25a skin in the game.
25:27So Making a Murderer made a huge deal out of the fact that Colburn and Lenk had to be
25:31deposed of Stephen Avery's pending lawsuit.
25:33And what's really strange about it is they make it seem as though they had a motive to
25:37frame him as though Lenk and Colburn were going to have to personally pay, which
25:41simply is not the case.
25:43There was no time that you went into Mr.
25:46Avery's home when you were not also with Lieutenant Lenk.
25:52No, sir.
25:53It's almost coincidental.
25:54You have the two guys that probably have the biggest conflict of interest finding all
25:57the evidence. And Making a Murderer didn't make that up.
26:01And a lot of people ran with that, believe that because they had been marginally
26:06involved in a phone call relating to Avery's first conviction.
26:10They must have had this huge motive to frame Avery.
26:16Walter Kelly and Steve Glynn, they took on the civil case for him,
26:21knowing that he would have a good opportunity to receive compensation for the years he
26:26was wrongfully convicted.
26:28They filed in 2004 and they started deposition spring of 2005.
26:36You knew by September 12th, 2003,
26:41that Stephen Avery is someone who had been in jail for an assault
26:47that he had been convicted of, correct?
26:50Had been in jail.
26:51Yes.
26:53I can't honestly say that I grew up determined
26:58to be a law enforcement officer.
27:00Nobody in my family was in law enforcement.
27:04You yourself hadn't had any involvement in the Avery
27:09prosecution or investigation, correct?
27:11I wasn't even in this country when that occurred.
27:14Sure. I was stationed overseas in the military.
27:17I was a fighter aircraft mechanic, fighter crew chief.
27:21I got to see the entire world, got to go all over.
27:26After I got out of the Air Force, I moved back to Wisconsin, got married,
27:32and I was hired in 1992 at the Manitowoc County Sheriff's
27:36Office as a corrections officer.
27:39Corrections officer is a non-sworn, non-law enforcement officer that is
27:43responsible for security of the jail.
27:47And it wasn't like when you got hired by the Manitowoc County Sheriff's Office,
27:52somebody came down and sat you down and said,
27:54let me tell you the story of Stephen Avery.
27:57Never happened.
27:59Link and Colburn, those two, because of their deposition,
28:04I think you characterized them as the most conflicted
28:09since they weren't even employed or had no connection to Avery.
28:13You'd have to agree that there were others from Manitowoc
28:16Sheriff's Department were more conflicted than Link and Colburn, isn't that true?
28:20I disagree. Link, maybe.
28:21Link, I'm not sure about Link, 100% yet.
28:24Let's talk about Colburn, then you must have strong feelings about him.
28:27Yeah, Colburn. So the biggest issue, his connection to the 85 case,
28:31he wasn't obviously employed, neither was Link, but the phone call, right?
28:34And so the phone call in 95 that he picked up.
28:38You've gone over what is Exhibit 138.
28:42Yes, sir.
28:43It describes you receiving a telephone call
28:47from someone who identified himself as a detective.
28:53When I received the call, I answered the phone,
28:57Manitowoc County Jail, I didn't say Sheriff's Office.
29:00I said Manitowoc County Jail, Officer Colburn.
29:05He must have assumed that I was a police officer.
29:09He didn't give me his name.
29:10He just said, I'm a detective from this agency.
29:14The detective indicated that there was a person in custody
29:18who had made a statement about a Manitowoc County offense, correct?
29:25Yes. OK.
29:26He didn't say sexual assault and he didn't give me a name of the suspect.
29:32And what that person in custody had said
29:37was that he had committed an assault in Manitowoc County
29:41and someone else was in jail for it, correct?
29:43Yes, sir.
29:45Didn't say prison, in our jail, who may have committed an assault
29:50in your guy's jurisdiction.
29:53Was that a matter to shrug off for you?
29:56I didn't shrug it off, sir.
29:58I did what the caller asked me to do, connect him to a detective.
30:03I think I said to him, you're probably going to want to talk to a detective.
30:08I said, let me transfer you and then transferred the call.
30:12That was the end of it.
30:14It wasn't within your jurisdiction to take it any further, correct?
30:18No, sir.
30:20When I watched Making a Murderer, I can tell you right out
30:23that I thought he was absolutely wrong about how he handled it.
30:26He should have followed up.
30:27Absolutely.
30:28Did you ever write a report about that?
30:31No, I did not, sir.
30:33I felt like that, coupled with the fact that the report was written
30:36after the fact, really bothered me.
30:39Well, actually, you did, didn't you?
30:43It was about eight years later, wasn't it?
30:47I wrote a statement on it. Yes, sir.
30:50After I transferred the call, I really didn't think about it
30:53because on an average time working four hours in that control,
30:58you probably transfer 20 to 30 phone calls in a four hour period,
31:03you know, every time you work in there.
31:06Of course, Andy Colburn didn't initially make a report
31:08when he took this phone call.
31:09This isn't a huge gotcha moment that Making a Murderer
31:12was trying to make it out to be, because Andy Colburn was not a police officer
31:16at that time. He was just working at the jail.
31:18His job was to literally transfer phone calls.
31:22Well, let me ask you this.
31:23As you sit here today, Sergeant Colburn,
31:26do you even know whether that call was about Mr.
31:28Stephen Avery? No, I don't.
31:33In 2002 to 2011, I served as a patrol shift commander
31:39after Stephen Avery was released from prison.
31:42I was headed out on a case and I was running what I was going to do
31:47past Lieutenant Jim Link.
31:49Conversation switched to DNA
31:52and how it had exonerated Stephen Avery.
31:56And I don't know, it popped into my head that phone call.
32:01I said, I wonder if that call had anything to do with the Avery case,
32:06if that's what he was talking about.
32:10Sergeant Colburn told you about that telephone call, didn't he?
32:15Yes, in 2003.
32:17And regrettably, I made a flippant comment.
32:23I said something to the effect of, well,
32:26had anyone or myself or anyone told the sheriff about it,
32:31he would have probably said something to the effect of, well, I got my guy.
32:37Lieutenant Link
32:38misunderstood my flippant comment.
32:41The way he interpreted it is, is that I had gone to Sheriff Kossurik,
32:46told him about this phone call, and that was the sheriff's response to me.
32:51Sergeant Colburn was later informed by somebody that the case was already solved
32:55and the right person arrested.
32:56Yes.
32:57It wasn't the case. I never went to the sheriff.
33:01After I left, it must have bothered Lieutenant Link.
33:04So he went to the current sheriff at that time.
33:07That's one of the sheriff's department statement forms,
33:10and it looks like James Link's signature on it.
33:14Sheriff Peterson instructed Lieutenant Link to write a statement.
33:18You wrote a statement after Sheriff Peterson suggested that maybe you should.
33:23Yes, sir.
33:24He said he referred it to a detective and heard nothing of it after that.
33:30He said, well, I need you to write a statement on what happened.
33:34So I did.
33:37That's it? That's your connection to Mr. Avery?
33:39Yes, sir.
33:40Well, did that cause you enough embarrassment and enough angst
33:45in which to set up Mr. Avery for a charge of murder?
33:50No.
33:54If he was framed, I figured,
33:57if he was framed, I figured,
34:00all right, it's presumably got to be the cops involved in a fair amount of that.
34:06My first thought was, if they did it, why did they do it?
34:09What's their motive?
34:11I wasn't terribly persuaded by his lawsuit explanation.
34:20He thought he had 36 million coming.
34:23There's people out there saying that, yeah, that he was set up because of this money.
34:29Oh, my, the $36 million narrative.
34:32Dun, dun, dun.
34:33Where to even begin?
34:34People invested so much in this theory.
34:39In making a murder, the attorney said the county would be on the line for that $36 million.
34:47Manitowoc County itself and the sheriff and the DA
34:51would be on the hook for those damages in that civil suit.
34:58That doesn't foot, actually, because the county has insurance.
35:04So, I don't get the connection between the first suit and law enforcement
35:12because it doesn't connect at all.
35:15The county and that, they got all insurance.
35:18I don't think that's a motive.
35:20A lot of theories there on how insurance policies weren't going to pay off.
35:25First of all, the insurance company did pay the settlement when it finally went through.
35:31Second part of it is that when Glynn and Kelly filed their complaint for Stephen Avery for his civil suit,
35:38they understood what they had to prove.
35:43You have to find that the law enforcement, the police officers, willfully and wantonly
35:49and intentionally sought to harm somebody.
35:53You have to prove they specifically planted, framed, targeted him.
35:58And if you do that, there's a good chance insurance won't pay
36:04because it doesn't cover acts that are done on purpose.
36:09So, regarding the $36 million lawsuit, eventually Stephen wound up accepting a $400k settlement,
36:14which in my personal opinion, that was the best he was going to be able to do
36:17because if it was ever litigated, I mean, he would have had a tremendously difficult time
36:21proving that the county intentionally targeted him.
36:24He probably would have lost.
36:26You know, when you file a lawsuit, you can put any price tag on it you want.
36:30I think it would have been extremely unlikely for Stephen Avery to win $36 million in that civil suit.
36:37At the end of the day, you have to prove your case.
36:40So, everybody throws this number around without knowing what the case was about.
36:45It was not an easy case.
36:48First and foremost, it's not like Stephen Avery was just a few weeks away from receiving a huge settlement.
36:53It would have most likely been years if it had even made it to trial.
36:56And contrary to popular belief, even if a jury did find that the police intentionally went out of their way
37:02to frame him back in 1985, it wasn't that he was automatically going to win the full $36 million.
37:08I mean, no exonerees were winning civil cases of that size at that time.
37:12And by the way, they still aren't.
37:17Did you have any concern that you would be added as a defendant in that lawsuit?
37:26I don't know if concern is the correct word.
37:30I know I expressed that I didn't have any knowledge of that case.
37:35I wasn't a Manitowoc County resident at that time.
37:40I think Hulbert and Lenk were very worried that they were going to be included in that suit.
37:45Dean Strang said at best of trial, he's like,
37:47you don't know what kind of convictions they had about being deposed.
37:50My question, though, was whether you had concern,
37:54the thought crossed your mind that you might be added as a defendant in that civil lawsuit?
38:01Yes, the thought crossed my mind that I might be added as a defendant.
38:05Colburn admitted it crossed his mind.
38:07That alone could make somebody say, oh, crap.
38:11You know, I don't want to be a part of this.
38:13Get this guy off my radar.
38:14What can I do to help?
38:16Sergeant Colburn took a phone call
38:19and the defense tried to make it look like that was it.
38:22That was the conspiracy right there.
38:24And that Andy Colburn had a reason to do this.
38:28And people think that somehow that has turned him into
38:31giving him a reason to somehow plant evidence.
38:35Making a murder, I got the impression that it was a bigger deal for them
38:39because had they been defendants, they would have been held responsible.
38:43They could have had to pay out of pocket.
38:46There was no basis to say Andy Colburn was going to be added to that suit.
38:50There was actually a deadline in place by which the complaint
38:52had to be amended if they wanted to.
38:54And that deadline had come and gone.
38:57We, meaning myself and Lieutenant Link, were never, ever named
39:02as defendants in this lawsuit.
39:06Mr. Link and Mr. Colburn both were pulled into the lawsuit
39:09not as defendants or parties to the lawsuit, but as witnesses.
39:15Making a murder cut out of Dean Strang's opening statement
39:19that they were only witnesses.
39:22Both were pulled into the lawsuit
39:24not as defendants or parties to the lawsuit, but as witnesses.
39:30Both were pulled into the lawsuit
39:32questioned about their own activity and conduct
39:35with respect to Mr. Avery's imprisonment.
39:39They remove any indication that they were only called as witnesses.
39:45Both James Link and Andy Colburn,
39:48they stood to lose nothing from his lawsuit.
39:51Stephen Avery was a thorn in their side, there's no question.
39:53I think there was some bitterness that he did get out
39:56and he made them look bad.
39:58They bring up the lawsuit,
40:00well you did it because you had an ax to grind.
40:02You know what?
40:04In all truthfulness,
40:07I was happy for Stephen Avery.
40:09I thought, I would not want to sit in prison
40:12for something I didn't do.
40:14You have that money coming.
40:16I don't care.
40:17They're not coming to my bank account
40:19and taking that money out.
40:21They're going to Manitowoc County.
40:23That's who is shelling out that money.
40:25It doesn't affect me what I owed them.
40:29This is the kind of guy that Andy Colburn and Jim Link are.
40:32You know, I remember taking a call back in the 90's
40:35from someone, gosh,
40:37could that have been who that guy was talking about?
40:40And they end up doing a report on it.
40:42If they didn't do that,
40:44I would have never known that.
40:46Why would these officers risk their own lives
40:49and their own livelihoods,
40:51their own freedom,
40:53to frame a man so that somebody else
40:55might avoid paying a lawsuit?
40:57They weren't going to be the ones to have to pay it.
40:59I mean, it just doesn't make any sense.
41:04Sunday, November 6th,
41:06we determine what do we need?
41:08We need personnel.
41:10It's again, just a process of
41:12gathering evidence.
41:14The dogs are still unseen.
41:16They're getting a lot of information.
41:18They're getting a lot of leads.
41:20We have minimal resources here.
41:22Most of the guys from Calumet County
41:24are not investigators.
41:26They're patrol officers thrust into this.
41:28Lieutenant Link, Sergeant Colburn,
41:30and Detective Remick are on my team.
41:32Deputy Kucharski informed us
41:34what our assignment would be for that day.
41:36Next to Steven Avery's residence
41:38is a detached garage.
41:40We were told to
41:42do a search of that garage
41:44for any evidence
41:46that we could uncover
41:48that would pertain
41:50to Teresa Hallbuck's disappearance.
41:52As we entered the garage,
41:54the first things we saw
41:56were the shell casings.
41:58We noticed there were spent shell casings
42:00on the floor.
42:0210 of these, something like that?
42:04I think 11.
42:06Where there are shell casings,
42:09there may be bullets?
42:15We found shell casings.
42:17Were you looking for bullets?
42:19We were looking for everything.
42:21In that same general area,
42:23we found reddish-brown stains
42:25on the concrete.
42:27You also seized everything
42:29that you saw that you thought
42:31had evidentiary value that day, didn't you?
42:33Yes, sir, at that time.
42:35They were doing a general
42:37search of the garage, looking for anything
42:39of obvious evidentiary value.
42:41Things weren't taken out of place
42:43or out of
42:45the garage or anything.
42:47It was more of looking into
42:49for obvious things.
42:51Again, because they weren't sure
42:53what to look for.
42:55We weren't emptying
42:57cabinets and dumping the contents
42:59on the floor. We tried to be
43:01respectful of people's property
43:03and we also had in the back of our mind
43:05that not only do these people live
43:07out here, their sole source
43:09of livelihood
43:11is this salvage yard.
43:13So every day that we're out
43:15there searching and looking for
43:17evidence is another
43:19day that they're losing money.
43:21We need to try and get this
43:23done as quickly as
43:25possible. Calumet County,
43:27they've got their own county to run. Their resources
43:29are limited too and they're not a big county.
43:31So we've got to get personnel in.
43:33We utilize the state patrol. We have them
43:35come in. Dive teams come in to look
43:37in these ponds. Firefighters,
43:39dispatchers, jailers.
43:41You get an idea of the magnitude
43:43of this at this point.
43:45You have to remember also down in Madison
43:47the crime lab is processing
43:49her RAV4.
43:52Mr. Groffi, on
43:54November 6th of
43:562005, did you take
43:58photographs of a
44:001999 Toyota
44:02RAV4 that
44:04belonged to Teresa Halbach?
44:06Yes I did. It was found that the vehicle
44:08was locked. They
44:10contracted with a local key shop
44:12to come in and open the vehicle for them.
44:17So today I'm on my way
44:19to see Ron Groffi.
44:21He is a retired
44:23forensic imaging specialist
44:25from the Wisconsin State Crime Lab.
44:27He was the one that took
44:29the initial pictures of the
44:31RAV4 when it was brought in.
44:33And he also did the first two
44:35swabs of phenolphthalein to test
44:37for the presence of blood
44:39in the RAV4.
44:41This was a vehicle that they
44:43thought was the victim's vehicle
44:45and they wanted us to process it for
44:47evidence. Suited up,
44:49got my camera out, took pictures of
44:51the vehicle. Could you just
44:53tell us which ones, if any, were
44:55taken on the 6th?
44:57That would be
44:59289,
45:01290,
45:03292,
45:05and 293
45:07of the ones that
45:09I have. We don't ever say
45:11it's blood. We let
45:13the serology people
45:15decide that. So they wanted me
45:17to do some presumptive tests.
45:19The area that shows the red
45:21stain, I did a
45:23presumptive test on that area.
45:25And I think I also did a
45:27presumptive test back in the
45:29cargo area of the vehicle.
45:31And we relayed the information
45:33back to DCI that those tests
45:35were in fact positive.
45:39After the search
45:41of this garage, can you tell us
45:43where you went, please?
45:45I was called over to
45:47assist in the loading
45:49of some burn barrels.
45:51You learned that
45:53one of the
45:55human
45:57remains dogs had
45:59alerted strongly on
46:01or near the
46:03Yonda burn barrels? Yes.
46:05Four burning barrels
46:07behind Barb Yonda's
46:09trailer, and they wanted to
46:11grab those barrels
46:13and put them in an enclosed trailer.
46:15It was starting to rain sleet.
46:17It was pretty miserable
46:19out there at the time.
46:21They were put in storage with a
46:23lock and basically kept
46:25there until the state
46:27crime lab was able to come back
46:29and start sifting through them, looking for
46:31evidentiary items.
46:37We decided that it's time
46:39to go back into
46:41Steve's trailer. And again, keep in
46:43mind, other buildings were being searched
46:45as this was going on.
46:47It was Deputy Chekarsky,
46:49Lieutenant Link, and myself.
46:51I remember
46:53looking at Lieutenant Link and going,
46:55really? I said,
46:57what else could possibly be
46:59in there? For lack of a better word,
47:01I bitched about it all the way from the
47:03command post. And all of us thought
47:05it was going to be an exercise in futility.
47:07And that was my decision
47:09that that trailer needs to be
47:11searched thoroughly now.
47:13We do not want to miss anything.
47:15If we give up this scene, we may never get another chance.
47:17Lieutenant Link said,
47:19well, also,
47:21while we're out there, we're supposed to
47:23collect his entire porn collection.
47:25And I'm like,
47:27he had collected
47:29porn pictures
47:31of his first wife.
47:33He still had them.
47:35So that got me
47:37complaining again, you know?
47:39So I was like, well,
47:41let's get it done and
47:43let's get out of here.
47:45Were you asked to perform
47:47a thorough search
47:49of this piece of furniture?
47:53Yes.
47:55There is a narrow area
47:57between this bookcase
47:59and this desk.
48:01And in order to make sure that there was
48:03no evidence
48:05or anything else that we needed
48:07lodged between there,
48:09I actually tipped this to the
48:11side and twisted it away
48:13from the wall.
48:15Once the search was completed,
48:17what was done with that piece of furniture?
48:19It was still kind of away from the wall,
48:21but it was more or less
48:23stuffed back into its original position.
48:25I advised
48:27Deputy Kucharski that I would go out into the
48:29living room and retrieve
48:31bags or try to get boxes
48:33to put the items that we had recovered.
48:35Suddenly,
48:37I hear Lieutenant Link say,
48:39there's a key on the floor.
48:41So I turn around
48:43and I go, where?
48:45By this cabinet that we just
48:47got done searching. So I look,
48:49sure enough,
48:51there's a key. It has a Toyota
48:53emblem on it.
48:55How and where
48:57Teresa Hallback's car key was discovered
48:59spun more bad cop conspiracy
49:01theories than perhaps any other element
49:03in this case.
49:05On November 8th, a key was found in this case,
49:07a Toyota key. It was found
49:09by Jim Link
49:11and Andy Colburn, both Manitowoc County officers.
49:13As soon as that was found,
49:15I knew the significance of that.
49:17I knew that my case had just become
49:19very, very difficult, and I was angry.
49:21I went and talked to
49:23Tom Fassbender and Mark Weigert
49:25and I said, you guys just
49:27fucked up my case.