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Video Information: 24.05.2022, Greater Noida
Context:
~ What is spirituality?
~ What is religion?
~ How are they related?
¬ Is India's spiritual conservatism too strong?
¬ Why is spirituality hard to teach in India?
Music Credits: Milind Date
~~~~~
Be a part of the Live Sessions: https://acharyaprashant.org/hi/enquir...
Want to read Acharya Prashant's Books?
Get Free Delivery: https://acharyaprashant.org/en/books?...
~~~~~
Video Information: 24.05.2022, Greater Noida
Context:
~ What is spirituality?
~ What is religion?
~ How are they related?
¬ Is India's spiritual conservatism too strong?
¬ Why is spirituality hard to teach in India?
Music Credits: Milind Date
~~~~~
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:00So, this has been a phenomenal journey.
00:05Thank you so much, Acharya Ji, for reinforcing so many of the points that I struggle with
00:16as I communicate and teach my students.
00:21So many of these questions that have been put to you and you have answered them so much
00:27in depth and absolutely on point that I'm really, really pleased that we were able to
00:39engage in this way today.
00:42So, one or two other things that are left for us to talk about, if we may.
00:50One of them is, you know, this issue of religion versus spirituality.
00:56It's a big issue, but I want to put it as a policy challenge.
01:02There are two big things in my mind that I'd really like, but before we run out of time,
01:08I'd also like for us, if it is possible at all, to have a follow-up, one-on-one conversation
01:17in the context of our teaching and research.
01:20We will benefit tremendously from your deep insights.
01:24So that's one thing on the side.
01:25So if your colleagues who, you know, work with you can help us with that, I appreciate that.
01:32But the question, the question here is, the way I put it is, is India today too religious
01:41to be spiritual?
01:42You know what I'm getting at?
01:48In fact, you have put it quite secondly.
02:02You can definitely say India is just too religious to be spiritual.
02:08And that's also my everyday experience, people who come from overly religious backgrounds.
02:14It is more difficult to teach them.
02:19It is more difficult even for them to listen without prejudice and interference, internal
02:27interference.
02:28Whereas people who come from very normal irreligious backgrounds, even atheists, they are far more
02:37receptive and their listening is less corrupted, less filtered.
02:47It's a travesty because religion is supposed to be the entire ecosystem that turns one spiritual.
03:01But that's the way of Maya, as Vedanta puts it.
03:09You build something to tackle her and instead she will co-opt that same very thing, ingest
03:19it and turn it into her own weapon.
03:26You know, Saint Kabir puts it very beautifully.
03:30He says you accord sacredness to the water of the river and Maya will make that water
03:39her own.
03:41You accord sacredness to the deity in the temple and Maya will make that deity her own.
03:49You accord sacredness to the holy verses and Maya will make those verses her own.
03:59So that's the thing with frozen methods and organized religion is nothing but a name of
04:06frozen methods, traditions, rituals.
04:10They were designed to be helpful, no doubt, but over time they have all not only lost
04:17their efficacy but have actually become active instruments in the hand of Maya.
04:26So, you know, the situation has become so bad that the core spiritual documents like
04:40the Upanishads, people have turned to reviling them, actually putting them aside and denigrating
04:51them so that they can continue with the rituals and beliefs that they call as religion.
05:02So for example, if people are indulging in something utterly stupid and I ask them that
05:07this that you are doing, is this written in Gita?
05:13They will say, oh the Gita is not all that important, we have other books as well and
05:18even if it is not written in Gita, it's a ritual we follow and our rituals, that's what's
05:23implicit in what they are saying, our rituals are more important than Gita.
05:28No, that's utterly shocking.
05:32I ask them, yours is, when I am talking to Hindus, let's say, yours is a Vedic religion
05:38and this that you are doing, is it sanctioned by the core of Vedas which is Vedant?
05:46Does Vedant sanction what you are doing?
05:48They will say, no, we don't care about Vedant, we haven't even read what the Upanishads say,
05:54but this is what my fathers and forefathers were doing and that is what is more important.
06:00This is what we call as religion.
06:03So this kind of cultural nationalism is emerging, not only nationalism, cultural jingoism of
06:10all kinds, of which one manifestation is nationalism and religion has become another
06:24name for the popular low level culture.
06:30So whatever we do in the name of religion, whatever we culturally do in the name of religion,
06:35that is religion and that is the popular consensus.
06:40Spirituality, well that is something we are not interested in.
06:44So you are very right when you say that today religion and spirituality are at odds with
06:48each other and that's the most important battle that needs to be fought today of bringing
06:59out the primacy of spirituality over religion.
07:06Otherwise, one very disastrous thing that is happening is that people, especially the
07:12young people, the intellectual people, they conflate religion and spirituality and because
07:18they do not like what they see in the name of religion, they go away from spirituality
07:24as well.
07:26Because they do not like all the rioting and hooliganism in the name of, let's say the
07:33Hindu religion, they totally discard the Upanishads as well.
07:39Because they do not like the caste system that's prevalent in the Hindu fold.
07:45They would discard the Bhagavad Gita as well.
07:47My question is, are the Upanishads or Bhagavad Gita or Brahma Sutra or Ashtavakra Gita, are
07:52they talking of the caste system?
07:54In fact, they are actively saying in so many words that caste system is bogus.
08:00You have an entire Upanishad dedicated to discarding the caste system and yet there
08:07are big sections who are discarding spirituality because spirituality appears to be affiliated
08:15with religion.
08:16Hence, this distinction needs to be very clearly made that the religion that these people are
08:23practicing is not religion.
08:26In fact, they have sabotaged the word religion and this word needs to be liberated from their
08:32fold.
08:35Otherwise there needs to be a new stream and that's what the Buddha had to do.
08:40Because the priestly class of that time had totally monopolized religion, therefore he
08:47had to come up with a new stream of his own, which was nothing but essentially the spiritual
08:52core of the existing religion itself.
08:55That's right.
08:56But he had to give it another name because the existing religion had been totally monopolized.
09:03Maybe that is the need of the hour.
09:06Either refinement from within or an outgrowth outside.
09:13I would prefer an inner refinement.
09:24This is indeed, I think, like you put it, the need of the hour.
09:30When I started the center of the OP Jindal Global University, this was the vision and
09:37the challenge.
09:38It's both a vision and a challenge.
09:42I looked at the, you know, the lofty wisdom, the spirituality that India had and I look
09:53at India today and I see the divide and I ask myself, one, we have to find a way and
10:04I hope if we can join forces with other like-minded people and organizations, we can hopefully
10:11make some progress.
10:14But a bigger, more positive question that comes to my mind is, can India lead a new
10:21renaissance in the world, building on its lofty philosophy, essentially Advaita Vedanta,
10:33and lead us to a new way of doing economics, a new way of politics, a new way of public
10:39policy, to a world that will be the world so many of us hope for.
10:46And if not us at this generation, our children hope for.
10:50You know, a world with more equity, sustainability, prosperity, less conflict and so on that world.
11:01My hope is that the answer to that question might be yes, but I might be completely wrong.
11:07I'd like your thoughts.
11:10You see, India is just too big.
11:15And therefore, I'm afraid when we say can India lead a revolution, it becomes a bit
11:22hazy, because India will contain just so many diverse, even opposing elements and streams
11:35at all times.
11:36We are talking of 1.4 billion people.
11:41Actually there would be awakenings within India, forces from within, streams from within
11:51that can show the way to the entire world.
11:59But as a patriot, if I imagine a situation where the entire Indian political country
12:11has awakened, I find it difficult.
12:16Still we can have powerful movements of awakening starting from within India.
12:29And I hope that first of all they get success within India.
12:34But what I realistically see is that even if such a movement starts from within India,
12:39it has a greater chance of succeeding abroad.
12:46Because as you said, India is just too religious.
12:51I really share your hope, but realistically, I do not see the first successes coming from
13:00within India.
13:01So as far as the initiation of such a movement or such an awakening is concerned, chances
13:08are very high that something can happen from within our nation, chances are very high.
13:15But what I also see is that more success in terms of its expansion and acceptance will
13:25come from abroad.
13:28And what would rather happen is that once there is success abroad, then Indians will
13:32probably queue up to follow.
13:35So my heart really wants to agree with you and that's the reason I have continued to
13:46work in this country.
13:47I could have taken the decision to shift my base to other places where conditions are
13:55much more supportive.
13:58And I too want things to happen here in the first place.
14:04But because I have been trying since over a decade now, so I know how difficult it is
14:09to deal with a mindset that's frozen in time, that has become a hotbed of all kinds of confused
14:21notions and not that abroad it is going to be much better.
14:26But at least the renaissance destroyed some of the most stupid beliefs there.
14:37India never had a renaissance of that kind.
14:40So even the worst kinds of beliefs continue to prosper in the mind here.
14:48And fighting those beliefs is not only tiring, also feels humiliating.
14:57You feel alright and you feel encouraged when you fight a worthy enemy.
15:03How do you feel while fighting a belief that says that there are seven ghosts that live
15:09on this particular tree and if you do not please them, then your kid will die.
15:20Now this unfortunately is not a joke.
15:23This unfortunately is a very solid belief that let's say millions in this country share.
15:32And if you want to question this belief, not even attack it, then there is great resistance.
15:42So the first successes will probably not come from within.
15:49But I really, really want that this nation that has given core spirituality to the entire
16:03world does not remain or end up deprived of its own fruit.
16:12Diya tale andhera.
16:13I don't want that to happen.
16:17But it's an uphill task.
16:22It's an uphill task.
16:23Let's see.
16:24Let's see.
16:26Actually, just a follow up kind of a point if I want to know about how Acharya ji would
16:34reflect on that.
16:36You know, when you are saying that a lot of changes might come from abroad rather than
16:41within, that's one kind of observation.
16:45Now one way to think about it would also be to connect genuinely core spirituality with
16:52science, not in the spooky way, you know, what we find, you know, that entanglement
16:58of human minds and all those kind of rubbish things, but really understanding that how
17:03science and genuine philosophical thinking that went on in our country, they can be integrated.
17:10And we at our center, we had hosted some very important scientists earlier, like Donald
17:16Hoffman, and also Minas Khafatos, and so on, and myself working with some scientists in
17:22various papers and books, we have seen amazing synergies between, you know, not only Adwait,
17:28Adwait is already there, but Buddhism and Jainism and modern scientific thinking.
17:34So maybe that this concept that these spiritual philosophies can enrich science in a genuine way,
17:42not in a kind of spooky way, that might also help to kind of encourage that kind of a movement
17:50that is like my own passion and thinking what you can see.
17:54So I'd just like to hear from you on that.
17:57It's a very worthy desire you have expressed, sir.
18:03Again, because I care for it so much, so I'll venture to play the devil's advocate again.
18:12What is happening is that in the absence of self-knowledge,
18:18science too can become just another profession of the ego,
18:25which means that one could be a great scientist and yet inwardly very ignorant.
18:38So, whereas it is obviously important that one has a scientific attitude, and
18:45and verses in the Upanishads are very unambiguous about it.
18:51They say you cannot have self-knowledge without having worldly knowledge.
18:57So worldly knowledge is referred to as the Vidya, inner knowledge,
19:01knowledge of the self is referred to as Vidya.
19:04And the Upanishads categorically say that if you think that you can have inner knowledge,
19:12outer knowledge, then you will fall into a deep well.
19:17So you need to have both and only then you cross over the bondages of this life.
19:24So science is definitely of great importance, but is the scientist above things like
19:36comparison, like jealousy, like greed, like ambition?
19:39If the scientist too is ambitious and partisan and a deluded fellow,
19:50then merely the knowledge of science is not going to help.
19:57In fact, that's the reason why I often say that if superstition is going to be obliterated,
20:04it's not science but spirituality that would do it.
20:09Superstitions will be taken care of not so much by science but by spirituality.
20:15In the absence of spirituality, science itself becomes a new modern kind of superstition.
20:24Because you see, science is all about the external world.
20:28This is how this moves, this is how that works.
20:30What is my relationship with what works and what moves, that science has nothing to do with.
20:36And that's a big problem.
20:38You may know everything about what this wall is about and all the elementary particles inside it
20:44and you may know the quarks and string theory and everything.
20:48But do you know what your relationship with all this is?
20:50Do you know who the experiencer of all this is?
20:54Do you know who is the one who is experiencing and storing this knowledge and therefore do
21:00you know who is the one who is going to use this knowledge?
21:03If you do not have self-knowledge, then external knowledge may not be of much help.
21:07It becomes a throw of dice.
21:09You do not know what will happen.
21:11The safest thing that may happen is that it may not be of much use.
21:15The worst thing that may happen is that it may be put, such external knowledge may be
21:20put to very very devastating uses, like the kind of uses we have put nuclear energy to.
21:28So, I am sure I have not given a clear answer.
21:33Science obviously is very important.
21:35I keep stressing that one cannot be ignorant of science and hope to be self-aware.
21:42But I also want to assert that science without spirituality is very very problematic.
21:51And just because one is a scientist, one does not become wise.
21:56This is exactly one of the core issues that we are thinking in our center.
22:01That is very much close to your heart.
22:03Wonderful.
22:06Let me first apologize to anyone who might have wanted to ask a question.
22:11But because of time, we couldn't have that question posed.
22:15I just want to say in closing, Acharyaji, that when I was a student, when I was a student,
22:24I think of your having been trained at IIT and IIM and having been in the public service.
22:34You know, you bring science and engineering and management and public service experience
22:41together with your in-depth knowledge and self-realization of the lofty philosophy of
22:50Advaita.
22:52We could not have wanted anyone more erudite than yourself to engage with us this evening.
23:02So I want to thank you very much for taking the time.
23:05I know your time has been in great demand.
23:08I want to acknowledge the fact that you took the time to engage with us.
23:14And we want to, in closing, like my colleague Sudipatra mentioned,
23:20we have a few concrete ideas where we believe we can benefit tremendously
23:25from an ongoing partnership and relationship with your foundation and yourself.
23:33We hope you will agree to that, even in the midst of the great pressures on your time.
23:39And we would follow up with Dr. Chatterjee and others to make the link and seek your guidance
23:48and inputs, because we share the same goal here.
23:52It's exactly what you are setting out to do, that we are setting out to do,
23:55and our comparative advantage is within a university system.
24:00And we are going to be very happy to put that advantage at your disposal.
24:05There are also, of course, as a university, many disadvantages.
24:10And we hope to overcome that with the kind of partnership that we can have with your foundation.
24:17So today, this is the beginning, at this point, I hope, and not the end.
24:25It's just the end of these two hours we have been so fortunate to have with you.
24:30So let me thank you again, and thank all your colleagues who helped to organize this.
24:36And let me acknowledge as well all my colleagues,
24:39both within our own school, but within other schools that might have been present,
24:44as well as others, and we look forward to an ongoing collaboration.
24:48Thank you very much.
24:50Thank you, sir.
24:51I thoroughly enjoyed the whole conversation.
24:54And I'll thank you and all the participants.
24:57And I really do look forward to an association, even a collaboration going ahead.
25:04Thank you so much.
25:06Okay, bye-bye now.
25:07Bye to all.
25:08Bye.