Comedian Josh Johnson sits down with WIRED Senior Writer Jason Parham for The Big Interview, breaking down his creative process, the modern world, and staying healthy and sane as a performer in the age of near-endless social media content.Read more: https://www.wired.com/story/josh-johnson-has-become-the-funniest-guy-on-the-internetDirector: Lisandro Perez-ReyDirector of Photography: Constantine EconomidesEditor: Cory Stevens; Louis LalireHost: Jason ParhamGuest: Josh JohnsonLine Producer: Joseph BuscemiAssociate Producer: Brandon WhiteProduction Manager: Peter BrunetteProduction Coordinator: Rhyan LarkCamera Operator: Christopher EustecheGaffer: Vincent CotaSound Mixer: Gabe QuirogaProduction Assistant: Cerina ShippeyPost Production Supervisor: Christian OlguinPost Production Coordinator: Ian BryantSupervising Editor: Doug LarsenAssistant Editor: Justin Symonds
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00:00A lot of what I do is trying to manage a pretty unhealthy art form.
00:04There's nothing mentally healthy about going in front of a bunch of strangers and being like,
00:08here are my ideas, do you like them?
00:10No?
00:10Silence?
00:11Okay.
00:11I'll just scream in the shower a week from now thinking about it.
00:15Wire sat down with comedian Josh Johnson to discuss comedy in the age of TikTok.
00:19This is The Big Interview.
00:21Break down the anatomy of a Josh Johnson joke for me.
00:31Take me through sort of, does it have a specific structure or arc?
00:34Before I do that, is it weird what I'm doing with my hands?
00:38Because I look like a tiny villain.
00:41People will watch this and be like, what was he doing?
00:44Okay, this feels good.
00:45All right.
00:46I'm also going to keep my elbow on the table like I'm telling you secrets, you know?
00:50I mean, it's just us talking.
00:51All right.
00:52So the anatomy of one of my jokes.
00:56Okay.
00:56I think that for the most part what I try to do is look at whether it's a specific topic in the news
01:03or it's something that I feel very strongly about.
01:06I think about sort of the angles that maybe the audience is coming from and then I try to think
01:11of all of the holes in my logic or the traps that I could fall into.
01:16You know that little game?
01:17Sometimes you win it at the fair where it has the holes in it and there's a little ball that
01:23you're trying to get through a maze to the other side.
01:26That's what I would describe as one of my jokes.
01:29And the ball doesn't always make it to the other side.
01:31Sometimes I'm like, well, that doesn't make any sense.
01:33That's my bad.
01:35And so I think that that's the best way I can put it.
01:38As an example, right?
01:39I watched the Olympics and I even did a set on the Australian break dancer, right?
01:45She was dressed like she was from Squid Game.
01:47That's when I was like, I was like, I don't know if you're taking this serious.
01:52I don't know.
01:54I don't know what's about to happen right now.
01:56Because there was a lot of motions.
01:57There were a lot of movements that I had never seen before.
02:00And I've been alive for a while.
02:02And so I was like, that's some real creativity.
02:05But also, is it just bad, right?
02:08Because it's being like universally panned as like, that was horrible.
02:12The judge awarded her zero points.
02:14And I didn't know that was possible.
02:18And so you also try to think of what's the subversive take?
02:21Was it horrible?
02:22Is there a way that I can prove it wasn't horrible?
02:24Because now we're already having an interesting conversation, right?
02:27Now, I did fall in the camp that it was horrible.
02:29So I didn't do that at all.
02:31I think a lot of us were there.
02:32Yeah.
02:32But then there are so many other angles to think about with it of like,
02:36OK, we can joke about this person's performance.
02:40You can try to clown this person.
02:42But every country has to send a representative or two.
02:46So then this person beat other dancers.
02:51Who does she beat?
02:54And so what were they dancing like?
02:57I think using that curiosity to ask more questions and think of different angles,
03:02you know, because maybe if Australia had a better immigration policy,
03:07there would have been some more black people in Australia to be like,
03:10hey, don't.
03:12And I'm not even saying you have to open your borders.
03:14Three black people, three extra black people could have prevented a nationwide disaster.
03:21Right.
03:21And there was a black dude in the background that was like.
03:37So basically, I think that we are all here at one time and we might all witness the same thing.
03:46Some people are going to find that event funny.
03:48Some people are going to find it potentially tragic.
03:50Some people might be annoyed by it after they hear about it for the second time.
03:54So the fact that we can all take different responses away from one event
03:58and the fact that there's no one way to feel about anything
04:02is a sort of diamond of takes and different angles that you can approach something from.
04:08So I try to do that with every joke and every story.
04:12Yeah, it seems like in watching and doing a lot of research for this interview,
04:16going through your TikToks, I was noticing that sort of there's this overarching macro joke,
04:21but then there's sort of all these interior moments within it that you try to hit.
04:24Yeah.
04:25I thought it was really sort of revelatory in that way.
04:27That's the intention.
04:29And sometimes they're not there.
04:30Sometimes it's like, look, I just find this one thing funny and that's it.
04:35I think that I'm finding my way of communicating with the audience and perspective
04:41through trying to hit as many angles as possible for one specific thing.
04:46Is that overwhelming?
04:47Yeah.
04:48It may not even be healthy.
04:50I think that for the most part, a lot of what I do
04:53is like trying to manage what is probably a pretty unhealthy art form.
04:58Okay.
04:59Do you know what I mean?
05:00Yeah.
05:01There's nothing mentally healthy about going in front
05:03of a bunch of strangers at once and trying to get them to like you.
05:08That screams everything I think a psychologist would speak against.
05:12Do you know what I mean?
05:14It's just walking out and being like, here are my ideas.
05:17Do you like them?
05:18No.
05:19You told me no with your silence.
05:21Okay.
05:21I'll just stay up here, continue talking.
05:24You don't like what I'm saying.
05:26And then I'll just file that in my cabinet in the back of the mind.
05:30So I scream in the shower a week from now thinking about it.
05:33You know what I mean?
05:34It's like a lot of it is overwhelming.
05:36But like I said, I think that for so long I was doing jokes and I was writing
05:41and I was trying to engage with people and nobody really knew or cared.
05:46And so I'd much rather have the pressure and the sort of overwhelming aspect
05:51than to just be throwing jokes into the abyss, you know?
05:56If we can a little bit pivoting and talk about sort of the social media of it all.
06:00I'm curious, how has social media changed your relationship to comedy?
06:04I don't know if it has.
06:05Two really big problems that people have, not just comedians,
06:09but just people in general with social is that one,
06:13it either feels like a living, breathing thing or two, you feel like it's your friend.
06:18And if it's either one of those things to you, it can betray you very easily.
06:22If Instagram is supposed to be your friend and it's how you get a lot of your dopamine
06:26and it's just a great experience every time,
06:28then everyone sort of trashing you on Instagram or people not liking what you post
06:35or people not even responding to what you post, not caring at all.
06:38I think that that can take a toll on a person's mental health.
06:42And so I think that the way that I try to not let it affect my relationship with comedy
06:50is that I'm doing comedy for the people that come to the show.
06:54It's a relationship between me and the people that come to the show.
06:58I then share it with people who weren't at the show.
07:00But if they weren't at the show,
07:02they might not have the same feeling as the people that were there.
07:05You know how sometimes you'll go to a concert and people have their phone
07:08and they're recording the concert?
07:10And everyone makes the joke that they're not going to watch that later.
07:12So just watch the concert.
07:14But I have watched that on someone else's phone.
07:16And when they were showing me the concert on the phone,
07:18I was like, must have been nice because I'm not getting anything out of this right now.
07:23Like this is your shaky hand moving and you swear that it's Kendrick.
07:30I can hear a Kendrick song, but I can also hear you going,
07:34so it's like, what is this supposed to be for me, right?
07:38But I think comedy is my relation to the people that are here right now.
07:43And then posting to social is my relation to people who I hope will come to a show one day.
07:48And who I think will enjoy these jokes that I may not do again,
07:52which is another reason why I post, right?
07:54Because I'm not trying to do the identical set over and over.
07:58So when I'm done with a joke, why not share it?
08:01Why not share it with people who I believe will enjoy it?
08:04It's either that or less people get to see it for the end of time.
08:10Like, it's just a joke that I sort of like,
08:12take to the grave outside of me and the people that went to the show, you know?
08:16So no identical sets ever?
08:18Not as far as last year.
08:21I definitely, when I was getting ready for specials in the past,
08:24would do the same set leading up to make sure that the performance of the special was
08:29as tight as it could be.
08:30People talk a lot about crowd work in comedy now and everything.
08:35And I think one of the reasons that crowd work does so well is because
08:38for the people who are at the show, you're making them part of the show
08:41and you're bringing them in into an experience that they won't forget
08:44because it's a singular moment where they were part of the show
08:47and you're giving them a turn, right?
08:50Your videos sort of run counter to how we consume social media.
08:53They often run four to five minutes long,
08:55which feels like a lifetime on TikTok sometimes.
08:58Yeah, yeah, I'm pretty long-winded.
09:02Why do you think they found such an audience in the way that they have?
09:05I think that anything that you find interesting,
09:08there are people like you out in the world.
09:11And so I actually think it's a really refreshing reminder that we're not alone.
09:17I think length is not the real issue.
09:20I think it's just general interest.
09:22And I won't be talking about things that are interesting to everybody all the time,
09:26but I think that when you find genuine interest and enthusiasm in something,
09:30you can bring people into it because they're like,
09:32oh, I don't know about this.
09:33Maybe I will be interested in it.
09:35And so I also think it's indicative of the fact that when you put things out
09:39and you're not putting them out for some result,
09:41you're putting them out because you hope that people will enjoy them, right?
09:45Whether they get one view or they get one million views,
09:47the length is the link for a reason.
09:50And I'm doing my best to connect with people who find joy in what I do.
09:56And so I'm glad that it's worked out.
09:58And my hope is obviously when I put things out that people will watch them.
10:02I can't hold too much attachment to the outcome.
10:06Obviously, I'll notice if tomorrow everything gets one view.
10:09I'd be like, is that just my mom then?
10:12Is just mama watching now?
10:14Because even I should be a view.
10:16So the fact that it's one view and not two,
10:18oh, we must be doing poorly.
10:20But at the same time, I put it out for people to enjoy.
10:23And if no one enjoyed it, then that's my bad.
10:26But as long as they are, I hope to continue making things for them to enjoy.
10:31So talk to me a bit about being a comedian online today.
10:35You're on TikTok, you're on Instagram, on YouTube.
10:38What's your sort of strategy for social output?
10:40I think the general strategy is to, you know,
10:44share the sort of like more topical thoughts of either the day or the week or the big event.
10:50And then break them into as many different pieces as possible.
10:56Because I think that everyone's gonna consume differently.
11:01And I think that obviously certain things will do well on a platform
11:04that won't do as well on another.
11:06You might see something that's posted to YouTube and it does well, right?
11:11And then maybe it even does well with YouTube shorts
11:14when you break it into pieces or something.
11:16But then you post it to like Twitter and it doesn't do well at all.
11:21And you're like, ah, yes, I didn't.
11:23There wasn't enough hate.
11:24I didn't.
11:25I should have rage baited more if I wanted to get a real result.
11:29Because Twitter is the real test.
11:30But I think that just because one thing does something somewhere,
11:35you can't expect it across the board.
11:37And then also I think that in order to sustain myself
11:42and keep creating things that people enjoy,
11:47I have to release attachment from how things are going to go on social.
11:52So it's like I post to share.
11:54But I look at sharing as the way you'd share anything physical.
12:00I think that the digital and the physical are the same, right?
12:03I might want to share with you a peanut butter and pickle sandwich.
12:08And you're like, nah, I'm good.
12:10I'm good, right?
12:12I'm all right.
12:13You know what I mean?
12:14And I think that sometimes jokes work the same way.
12:17And so I think that you obviously try to lean to your strengths on every platform
12:25and if something works, you're probably going to lean into
12:28the way that you did it last time.
12:30And if it doesn't work, that's how you learn and stuff.
12:32So I think that as far as like an editing
12:35or maybe this thumbnail is a good structure or whatever.
12:40But I don't think that for me as like a comic,
12:44I can put too much weight on exactly how things are going online.
12:51Because once again, the show that I'm making is for the people that come.
12:56So you don't read the comments online at all about your…
12:59No, no, I read the comments.
13:01And I think that the comments are important
13:04because my director when I've done specials and stuff like that,
13:07he directed my peacock special and everything.
13:09His name is Jacob Minacci.
13:10And he and I read the comments with different context, right?
13:15So I read the comments to see if people like the jokes, right?
13:19And sometimes it's good because then someone will be like,
13:22come to this place.
13:23And then if I'm coming, obviously you can put like,
13:25hey, I'll be there at this date, whatever, right?
13:28But the way that Jacob put it was,
13:31there's nothing in film that gives the instant feedback that YouTube gives.
13:37With film, you have a movie and you shoot it.
13:42You do all the stuff for a movie.
13:43You cast it, you have everybody shoot it.
13:45You do the post-production, everything.
13:47You wrap it up, you send it off.
13:48The studio likes it.
13:49You put it out.
13:50Then you do press and everything.
13:51And then the press is a lead up of anticipation, excitement for the movie.
13:55The movie comes out, right?
13:56People go and see the movie.
13:58But you still have to wait for the box office.
14:00You still have to wait for the reviews.
14:01You still have to wait for all this different feedback
14:04for a thing that's an idea that you had a long time ago
14:06that you created that you watched come to life.
14:09Whereas with YouTube, the second you post,
14:14somebody could be like, sucks.
14:16It's bad.
14:19Obviously, I have to take all of it with a grain of salt
14:20because whether it's actually bad, whether it is categorically bad,
14:24whether I put out a set that is the comedy equivalent of the Aussie break dancer
14:30or if I put out a set that's like people love it and they think it's amazing or whatever,
14:36they'll tell me and they'll tell me now.
14:38I'll know immediately.
14:39Learning to discern what's just general feedback and general love or hate
14:45because I don't think you can lean too much into either.
14:47I think either breed a sort of delusion of yourself,
14:51one negative and one positive.
14:52I think that the overall feedback is what lets you know you're on the right track.
14:58Rob Markman
14:58Building on that sort of final question,
15:01is it weird being a comedian in the age of social media?
15:05It almost seems like you have to have different instincts to succeed today.
15:09Everything is magnified.
15:10Everyone's competing for everyone else's attention.
15:13Even if you aren't a comedian, right?
15:14Everybody's sort of chasing trends.
15:16You brought up crowd work.
15:17You're seeing that a lot now on social media and TikTok and Instagram.
15:20I'm wondering how is sort of your relationship within all of this?
15:24I just think there are different opportunities, you know?
15:27I think that for every era of comedy, it has been difficult.
15:32And I think that for every era of comedy,
15:34there have been people who, through whatever that status quo way of coming up,
15:40came up first and are kind of the reason that you do some of these things.
15:44So back in the day when Johnny Carson was hosting The Tonight Show,
15:47you get a Carson set.
15:49You do really well.
15:50Carson invites you over to the couch.
15:52He's talking to you.
15:53Now all of a sudden you get free airtime on top of your set.
15:56People would be set for the year as far as touring went, right?
16:00And then Carson leaves The Tonight Show and now people are like,
16:03oh, what do we do?
16:04How are we going to sell our tickets?
16:06What's next, right?
16:07And then you had people that still kept to late night,
16:10but then you had people that were doing sort of subversive things.
16:14Oh, I'm going to tape my own special, put it out on VHS,
16:18and just mail it to a bunch of networks and see if one of them likes it.
16:22Maybe one of them likes it.
16:23Then getting a special, you know?
16:25And we're talking like a couple of decades removed from each other.
16:28But then getting a special was the way to set yourself up
16:32for the whole year touring tickets and stuff like that.
16:34Every form to get people to buy tickets will change.
16:38And the through line of all of it is that you're a comedian doing comedy.
16:43And as long as you're doing that and you're doing it for the people who show up,
16:47you're going to grow.
16:48It's not as if all of this incredible success is inevitable,
16:52but I think a general success at doing comedy is inevitable.
16:56If you are a painter, if you're a writer, if you're a dancer, if you're an actor,
17:00there are more accessible ways through the internet than ever before.
17:04I know that that means that the barrier to entry is lower than ever.
17:08It's so crowded, yeah.
17:09But I think that quality isn't crowded.
17:12I think if you continuously provide quality for people,
17:16not only will you stand out, but I think opportunities will come.
17:19And I think that people talk about networking stuff,
17:22but if you build friendships with other people who produce quality,
17:26there's no way that you won't succeed.
17:28I want to make quality for the people that come to the show
17:32and I want everyone else that I share it with to enjoy it.
17:35But people sort of lose their minds over like,
17:37well, can we get to 10 million?
17:39Can we get to a billion?
17:40Can we get to whatever?
17:41It's like that stuff will either come or it won't.
17:44There's no way to guarantee it and there's no strategy good enough to guarantee it.
17:47But I mean, it is healthy to set goals for yourself
17:49when you're sort of setting out at the beginning of it
17:52and you should have sort of benchmarks, right?
17:54Yeah, but I think those benchmarks, anything that is not up to you,
17:57in my opinion, shouldn't be a goal.
18:00All I can control is did the people coming to the show have a phenomenal time?
18:06Is this maybe the best comedy show they've ever been to?
18:08And if somebody tells me that after the show,
18:11this is a good example of a goal to me.
18:13So yeah, there are goals and there are benchmarks,
18:15but all the goals, all the benchmarks have to be things
18:17that you yourself can produce, right?
18:21I want to win all these awards.
18:22Those are clearly not up to me, you know what I mean?
18:25I want a lot of things.
18:26I want to be your size.
18:28When I met you, I was like, man, if I were your size, I'd be a problem.
18:33I wouldn't be polite at all.
18:35If I was your size, everyone would know what I think about them.
18:38You know what I mean?
18:38If I was as funny as you, I'm sure I'd be a problem too.
18:42Maybe, but if we switched for a day,
18:46you would get a call from me and be like,
18:48listen, I got locked up.
18:49It's not even my fault, okay?
18:52Well, thank you, Josh.
18:52Thank you for the big interview.
18:53This has been great.
18:54Yeah, great to meet you.
18:56Thanks for having me.
18:57Thanks for doing this.