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00:00Hello, everybody. Hello. Hello. I am John Hoffman. I am the showrunner, co-creator of
00:19Only Murders in the building. And I am very, more than especially pleased to be here for
00:27a little conversation with our, I'm going to say it loud now, our Emmy-nominated Season 3
00:34songwriters, Benj Pasek and Justin Paul. And my dear friends, hello, boys.
00:40Hello. Hello, John Hoffman.
00:42We're so honored to be here. We're so honored to be here with you, our 112-time Emmy-nominated
00:50friend, 175-time Emmy-nominated friend, John Hoffman.
00:56We've had a good run and we've been, we've had a lovely nomination run. Let's put it that way.
01:02But no, but it's time to start getting, racking up some winners. And that leads me to like,
01:08the only way I'm doing this is when I'm with like the real, real potential winners, guys.
01:13So this is what I'm, no, I'm kidding. Good morning.
01:17Hi.
01:18So good to see you, friend.
01:20It's so nice to see you. For anyone who doesn't know this,
01:24we were, I think, in deep contact during Season 3 a lot. And then, you know, Season 4 happened.
01:31It's already gone in the can. It's opening up in a month.
01:35I cannot wait. I cannot wait.
01:38Right. And so, yes, but I have not had a chance to see you guys,
01:42connect with you in the same way. And it feels a little bit wrong in all ways, but
01:46this is a nice opportunity.
01:48Yeah. This is really just a catch up for us. So thanks to everyone for listening in.
01:52We're just going to catch up.
01:53Exactly. Okay. All right. So here's what I'm supposed to do. I'm supposed to officially
01:56do these things and say, all right, I'm just want origin. I want origin, not of your lives,
02:02of your life in regards to a television show, familiarly known as OMBIT B.
02:08So, okay. So here is what, and was it me you first heard of or the television show? Go start there.
02:16Well, I have to say, actually, John, that I knew of you because of looking.
02:20Oh, yeah.
02:22No, actually, it was you that I first knew and loved. And for Easter eggs for anyone watching,
02:29there is a certain Mad Hatter character that I do remember well from my youth. So Google that.
02:36Google Mad Hatter and John Hoffman. But no, I mean, Justin and I were huge fans of
02:42Only Murders just as fans before we ever became involved in the show.
02:46As fans, as New Yorkers, as Upper West Siders.
02:50Our subway stop is on 86th Street, and it's literally right next to the building where
02:56the exterior of Only Murders is shot. So we always would see, you know, folks.
03:00We're always being ushered off the sidewalk because they say, this is closed. We're shooting
03:04Only Murders in the building. That's what's happening. Our lives are constantly disrupted
03:08by the filming of Only Murders.
03:09Sorry about that. I know. It gets a little crazier now over there around the-
03:14Because there's so many fans watching, peering, lurking, trying to watch the
03:18filming of the show. It's phenomenal.
03:20My favorite part of that is that when we're shooting, you know, it's a paparazzi madhouse.
03:26It can be at times, especially if we're out in front and stuff like that.
03:29And it's always Marty who steps forward and goes, God, they really, really clamor for me.
03:34And, you know, Selena's standing right next to him.
03:37It's so funny because walking home from the subway, as Benj says, we see there are people
03:44now who stop and it's become a tourist destination. People stop and take photos
03:49outside the building where the show is shot.
03:53Oh, it's insane. It's insane. And when I first heard you guys lived there, I really thought
03:58that the whole season three for me, honestly, was a bit of a fever dream of how is this all
04:04lining up like this? And to bring it back to you guys in The Origin, just to say it out loud,
04:13this is like, this was my dream, the two of you. And I've said it a million times.
04:18I said it a million times before meeting you. And I genuinely just said it offhandedly to
04:25Saskold Berg, who is a writer for season three of Only Murders, who I love.
04:30And she sat down in the first day of the writer's room and she said, are you thinking of any
04:35composers for this musical within the show? And I said, well, of course, I'm thinking of
04:39Pasek and Paul. And I just said that. She said, well, let me text them. And then I want to hear
04:45your side of it.
04:46Well, let's talk about our side.
04:48Here's our side of the story. So randomly, I'm on a vacation and Saskold Berg, who Justin and
04:53I went to musical theater school with at the University of Michigan, is in our literal-
05:00Sang acapella music with.
05:03Yeah. And same age, everything. We overlapped for one day at one random hotel. And I posted
05:12something on Instagram. She's like, are you at this hotel? I was like, yeah, but we have one
05:15day overlap. So we ended up hanging out. I hung out with her husband. Her whole extended family
05:20was there. We got like a little lunch. I was like, what are you up to? She's like, oh, I'm
05:23just taking this like little vacation because guess what? I'm really fancy now. I'm joining
05:28the room of Only Murders in the Building season three, which of course prompted me to say like,
05:34that's my favorite show. It's one of Justin and my favorite shows on television.
05:38Like if there's ever an opportunity for us to do literally anything having to do with Only
05:42Murders in the Building, like we're in, you don't even have to ask us if it's a ditty,
05:47if it's an end credit like moment, if there's just someone, you know,
05:51tinkling the ivories somewhere, like anything we are, we are totally, totally in. And then a week
05:57later, she calls us and she goes, Okay, so today's my first day at the writers room. And apparently
06:04they're doing a musical. And I just told them that you guys were in no matter what. So are you
06:11and and we were like, yeah, like what and then and then she's like, and it's not just a song,
06:16there's an entire musical that they want to do. And on top of that, Meryl Streep and Paul Rudd
06:22are also going to be in it. And we were like, we lost our minds. You know, people people watch this
06:28show for whatever reason. Some people love the mystery. Some people love Selena, some people
06:32love the Steve and Marty, some people love everything around New York, West Upper West
06:35Side, all those things. This was a whole new edition. And it had to fit in such a pocket.
06:41And you you nailed both the way in which it fits into the show, but it's also I just think,
06:47the sort of joie de vivre of all of the way in which the music in that season felt like a lift
06:56and and you you managed in some way to create a moment also, and I don't want to neglect on this,
07:04but the moment of Meryl Streep singing Look for the Light that you wrote with Sara Bareilles was
07:10one of those moments that I will never forget just once that started to hit. And and it was
07:17it was like people who had seen it. It just the reactions were like, stunning.
07:23Something about a legend like Meryl Streep or Steve Martin or any of these folks,
07:30stepping just the slightest bit outside of their comfort zones,
07:35musical theater, something that they don't do every day. It's just so beautiful and humbling
07:42to watch, you know, Meryl saying, you know, I want to do another take. Let me try again,
07:48or just slowing showing just the slightest bit of vulnerability. That's amazing. And and being
07:55the hardest working person in the room that is also humbling and makes you feel terrible about
08:01yourself, you know what I mean? The best way, you know what I mean? Like, oh, gosh, if they're
08:07working this hard, then how could I ever not? It's hard. That was just, you know, incredible to witness.
08:14Hush, little one, let me sing you to sleep. Moonlight has come, now drift off to a dream.
08:34Sail from the day to the wonders awaiting you out there in the deep.
08:44Off, little one, chase the wind on the waves. Adventure is calling, so go and be brave.
08:54But if you get lost as you're tossed in the dark of the sea, look for me.
09:03I will wait at the shore for you. I will weather each storm standing by till safe you return from the night.
09:25My love is a lighthouse.
09:28So darling, my darling, look for the light.
09:40This is one of those dream collaborations that is so rare where you can have conversations about
09:46something almost certifiably insane. The nature of this musical, and I know that when we talked
09:54about it and pitched it and everything else, it felt like we were in process because we were in
09:59process. But it was one of those things where I could sit and just describe what was happening
10:05in the show, what was happening within this idea of this murder mystery play that had to become
10:10a murder mystery musical through the eyes and mind of Oliver Putnam, played by Martin Short,
10:17in the show. And that's a particular perspective. And I never had an experience where there was this
10:23mind meld again manifesting. But I don't know what the hell. I just was able to sort of talk
10:29to you guys about it. And then you guys expanded everything I was saying. And then you went off,
10:34came back, and you came back with Which of the Pickwick Triplets did it? Look for the Light.
10:40Creatures of the Night. What was the last song's title? The Paul and Meryl.
10:45For the Sake of the Child.
10:46For the Sake of the Child. That was the last one we hit.
10:50OK, so that, I just need you to hear it, need everybody to know that these are the dream
10:55collaborators of all time, because they take what you're saying and then they go away. And
11:01they come back and there were no notes. It was like, are you kidding me? Everyone said the same
11:05thing. Meryl Streep cried the first time she heard her song sung by Sara Bareilles, who co-wrote that.
11:11Mark Shaman, Scott Whitman. OK, there's a lot to say. Maybe everyone knows all that. I just needed
11:16the world to hear it from me. It's hot in L.A. OK, so.
11:23Well, what needs to be heard and said is that dream collaborators, it's a dream,
11:30it was a dream collaboration. And it came, it starts with you and it starts with the writers
11:36of the show. We talk about it a lot and we say this and we'll continue to say it, we'll always
11:41say it. It was a dream collaboration because of the work that we all did together. And it's that
11:47best kind of work where everyone, the way that we work, the way that we love to work is we always
11:54talk of people are always like, so how does it work? Do you guys do the music first, the lyrics
11:57first, whatever? We're always sort of like we sit in a room and we talk about the song and we kind
12:02of talk it to death, not like creatively kill it. But we talked, we talk it to death and then we go
12:09and write it. But if we've talked it out, if everyone in the process, not just Benji and I,
12:14or in this case, Benji and I and Mark and Scott or whoever is writing the song, but our collaborators,
12:19the other writers on it, the director, the choreographer, whoever might be making that song,
12:23the cinematographer, the etc. If we've all talked about that moment and musical theater
12:30is a specific thing where everyone needs to be speaking the same language at the same time.
12:35So tonally it's right and you're shooting it the right way and etc. etc. You're lighting it the
12:40right way, all that. But if we've all talked about it at the same time and we know what story we're
12:44telling and we know what that song wants to accomplish and we've all talked about it, which
12:48in this case we did. And we talked about the songs before a word was ever written. We all sat in the
12:52writer's room together in LA. We got to sit with you there before the season was, as it was being
12:58conceived. And that was a dream process. We did that together and we talked about those moments
13:05and then we went the right way to write them. I would never say, we would never say the songs
13:10write themselves. I'm not going to belittle our process to that degree. But like then hopefully
13:16our craft kicks in and we take pride in our craft and we work hard. But then it's music and it's
13:21lyrics and that's what we know how to do. But we got to, we got to talk those songs out with you
13:27and you set them up so beautifully. And we all knew what we were, we knew the language we were
13:31speaking. We knew like the target we were aiming towards. And it was so much clarity in all of that.
13:57Herd and Reef!
14:02Which of the Pickwick triplets did it? Who of the crew would commit this crime?
14:06Might a little brat make a pony go splat? It's a story pretty gory for a nursery rhyme.
14:11Which of the Pickwick triplets did it? Which of the spawn had the brawn to kill?
14:14Will a baby get tried for matricide? Coochie coochie coo, time for you, you, you to admit it.
14:20So quick as a whip, got a pick, which Pickwick triplet did it?
14:25Which of the Pickwick triplets did it? Is such a feast of insane brain work and vivid brilliance.
14:35I can't even tell you. And let me say it out loud. That song came to me back from one conversation
14:42in a very big epic conversation. I remember in the shower thinking of the title of that song,
14:47That's All I Had. And then I said, well, this is what I think it could be. And we talked about it.
14:50But then it came back as is, as performed with Steve Martin. Maybe one or two lines altered just
14:57by yourselves. But I really mean like that was what you delivered from this session you had with
15:03the four of them. Please talk about that particular song in that session. Because we need to do that
15:07because you're up for an Emmy. And you should win that Emmy. You should win the Emmy because no one
15:12could do what you just did with that song. I'm just going to say it out loud. That's what I'm
15:17saying. Well, here's one thing. I think for us, what was so refreshing about working with you
15:25in particular, our experience, especially in working in not on Broadway and in film and TV
15:30is that often folks want some sort of hybrid between theatrical storytelling and top 40 stuff.
15:38And we love pop music and we love trying to find that. But the commitment that you wanted to be
15:44creating a show through the pen and eyes of Oliver Putnam required us to go back to
15:52a real like we have BFAs in musical theater, you know, where we would study shows like the
15:57Music Man and be graded on tests about whether or not we would remember, you know, you got trouble
16:02lyrics, you know, so. And what's the proper spelling of accompanist? And who was the book
16:06creator of Oklahoma? And like, how do you spell Frank Lesser? Like we know. Tell me about Ruben
16:11Emulian and things like that. What is the seating capacity of the Fifth Avenue Theater? Like it's
16:16like that was our so so for for someone in the Hollywood ecosystem to say, hey, we actually
16:24really want we really want because it belongs to how the world is conceived and the characters and
16:31and the actors that are insanely fantastic on the show. We want to really lean into something that
16:36feels so traditional. And that is actually going to be the aim and goal. And actually, I want a
16:43patter song. And actually, I want something that uses perfect rhymes. And I want something that
16:48feels like it is simultaneously really committed to a high level of craft, even if it is about a
16:53zany idea was such a welcome for us to get to to write with that kind of eye again, because,
17:01you know, it's been a little bit since we have gotten to write in that style. And so you giving
17:07us that challenge was phenomenal. By the way, let me say quickly, this show threading something fresh
17:13and something classic is what makes it is what made it so popular and sustaining and season four
17:21and beyond. That's why it's here. I mean, but what was so amazing to us about it was that you set up
17:26the the performance of a traditional musical theater patter song being the payoff to the plot
17:34of one of your main characters arcs, you know, which is introduced over the course of several
17:40episodes. So as like what the genius that we are so grateful for is that how you conceived the use
17:46of the song wasn't just hey, there's going to be a song or there's going to be a diegetic use of
17:50the song or whatever. It's Ken Charles Hayden Savage, pull this off. And so you get all of
17:57your audience at home rooting for your character to season over a season because he goes into the
18:05white room and then Matthew Broderick becomes you know, the the antagonist who can do it so easily
18:10and like, and like whether or not the character can achieve doing this patter song becomes the
18:16plot point and the thing that the audience is rooting for and success that just gives us such
18:21an opportunity to to to really make a song count and matter and you giving us that plant payoff
18:26of that moment is like what we dream for in these kinds of collaborations.
18:31For me, it in the shape of it, I wanted to give Steve what ultimately would be an 11 o'clock
18:37number. And but if you can set it up so that like you're really now we have 10 episodes,
18:43this is the dream of a 10 episode season while challenging to do mystery across 10 episodes,
18:48while challenging to keep alive, all of the threads we have to, there was such an opportunity
18:53with this music to be able to sort of like, lay in stuff that ultimately pays off. And I knew
18:59we'd land on finale songs when the production of the show ends in the finale episode. But
19:04this eighth episode moment for him, you were there, we were all there shooting it.
19:10We were late, we were late, we were in the theater, we only had the
19:14Yeah, I think wasn't there like a half, there wasn't there like a half a day
19:17scheduled to shoot it?
19:18That's Oh, sure. Yeah, we always schedule.
19:21And that's how it always, I mean, I mean, we know we've been through the same process.
19:24And then it got down to two hours. And it was late at night. And Steve doesn't like to work
19:28late. And I'm like, Okay, okay, Steve, welcome to the moment you have to do your song and good
19:32luck to you. God love him. He was so prepared. I remember his lovely wife, and I said, Okay,
19:42which of the trick book, which of the Pickwick triplets did it? And and she goes, Yeah, I know
19:46every lyric. Because he's walking around that house getting everything down. And so that when
19:52the two hours came, that's the professional that he is, that he stands up there. And he says,
19:56you know, I can't do this whole thing. And then he does the whole thing over and over again.
20:00And it was an incredible night. I know it was it was there was a moment there.
20:05Merrill had finished Marty had finished work. Pretty much everyone had finished work except
20:10for Steve and anyone on stage in the shots. And I will never forget I took a picture of it for Paul
20:16Rudd. I said we're having a night here a moment and and it was Steve out there and everyone stayed
20:23Merrill and Marty were in the theater seats out watching him do this over and over again and just
20:28having like it was a really special moment and you guys that I think it can't be underestimated
20:35what what you accomplished with it was and I really hear it all the time but like kids are
20:40talking about that song. Parents are telling me how like oh my god my sending me videos of
20:47their kids having accomplished the whole song. How do you manage things like that? How do you
20:53sort of like push past like anything like that to sort of like land and know you've got it when
20:58you've got it? That's one and and beyond that I also really want to make that an integral question
21:04to your relationship with Mark and Scott which is the first time you've really worked together
21:10on anything and how did that marry up? I'm very curious about beyond just the process what was
21:16that like doing a song with those guys who you've known for years? Totally well I'll start by saying
21:21that Mark and Scott are anyone who doesn't know you should but of hairspray fame of a million
21:28things. They're a fantastic songwriting team and they actually gave us our very first job in
21:35television on smash season two. They were the songwriters and I think executive producers
21:42so when when this opportunity came about and you know we we were in conversation with you and in
21:47the writer's room and you were like there should be a song maybe called which of the Pickwick
21:51Triplets did it? I mean the dream collaborators for us and also getting to getting to be a part
21:58of and and witness to and participate in their process. I mean for us for us musical theater
22:03writers don't generally work together. It's usually a very siloed world and we see each
22:08other sometimes at events but we don't get to be in rooms like in the tv world or in even the pop
22:14songwriting world and so this felt like a really fun opportunity to get to bring in some of our
22:19um our heroes and and folks that we love and and folks that we would have always wanted to
22:25collaborate with um whether that's Sarah and Michael R. Jackson and on this Mark and Scott.
22:31And so we we really wrote the entire song together in a room in Mark and Scott's studio
22:37in New York City. We would be zooming in with you as you recall you would be like okay
22:42John set the scene what exactly do we need to accomplish how does this need to
22:46you know we even uh throughout multiple episodes um how is this going to work what what was the
22:51payoff all of that and then um and then you went away and then we were left to our own devices of
22:56having to actually um try to make the song um half as good as what we had promised you on that zoom
23:02call um and we just got to work and and like honestly the first step was we opened up a google
23:07doc all four of us were looking at the a blank page that just said which of the Pickwick Triplets
23:12did it at the same time and then the song process begins and because we all come from the same sort
23:17of school um of musical theater writing we have a similar sense of you know things need to be
23:24perfect rhymes if it's going to be an Oliver Putnam show and it's going to be in this kind
23:28of patter style and um and then we you know we began with like which of the Pickwick Triplets
23:34okay that that has a natural rhythm to it which of the Pickwick Triplets did it then what's next
23:39fill in a line okay who's going to fill in the line and what was so cool about
23:44working on a google doc is that we got to literally be deleting improving changing
23:52the collective one line at a time like the entire time so we would go so sometimes working on you
23:59can see somebody's like onto something they've got a couplet but like they're like not quite
24:03sure about it but like i can see somebody's got two so somebody's got you know neonatal
24:08and fatal okay like that's a good that's an amazing couplet but like somebody realizes okay
24:14but cradle you know so we can get another interior rhyme in that line so like you know it's like you
24:20can see somebody's onto something and jump into that line i do want to know because the lyrics
24:24if really anyone pays attention to this song which it's it's it's goes by so fast and the
24:30brilliance of every stupid line is better than the next and but who came up with diaper full
24:35of criminal intent i mean i don't know that's the thing it's hard to even say because we all like
24:43it was truly the great thing about it is it was like building some kind of amazing lego or a
24:49tetrisy kind of thing it was like everybody just building on each other besting each other making
24:54each other laugh that was sort of the fun game of it and it felt like a game in the best creative
25:01possible way even like a diaper full of criminal intent like i'm sure that someone was like oh
25:06criminal intent okay how do we make that a diaper diaper i mean finding those interiors it's things
25:15like that
25:30at the edge of the world in the dead of the night a lighthouse looms over the ocean and a body lies
25:40such a sinister sight guts and gore on the shore nova scotia
25:52well it rattles your soul as the dark takes control it's enough to drive you wild
26:00when you're a creature all the night all alone in the black feel your sanity crack
26:09a creature all the night do your demons reside in the side that you hide from the light
26:21so
26:23the energy of of of everyone on set it felt like the most amazing theater camp experience that any
26:30of us could have ever dreamed of like that that's just the energy that you have created on the show
26:34where everyone feels like excited lucky to be there if you're like hey i want to show you the
26:39silly thing i'm working on like it feels playful and so often you know there i think there's two
26:44ways to motivate people in general there is um fear there is there is there is play and love and
26:51you have just created such a motivation for people to do their best work because they feel like
26:56they're getting to play and they're getting to express a form of love and they're getting to be
27:00in connection and community with each other and it's just infectious and so all the things that
27:06you've described of other actors staying late to you know watch folks i mean when we were again
27:11doing um steve martin recording pickwick like marty short just sat there in the room just giving
27:17him zingers and you know making fun of him the whole time but like it's just wandering and sit
27:22on the couch in the recording studio listening and listening like you can't take that take
27:26you know like whatever it was that energy of just your your cast just wanting to like
27:33hang out you know these are people who really don't have to do that nobody's jumping in the
27:37car and zipping home you know that's it right you know as fancy as this show is as as legendary
27:43as the people involved are i feel like the common denominator is the thing that they're
27:48so unafraid of and i think it's a thing that i feel comfortable i feel comfortable when people
27:52express their as you were saying justin the vulnerability and you have these legends coming
27:56in and they're not afraid to be vulnerable steve was terrified to do that song marty it would never
28:02show the certain vulnerability because he's got the bravado but you watch him sweat his ass off
28:09in that sound booth like recording that song of creatures of the night over and over and over again
28:15to get it right he they're they're all and meryl as you said meryl like working through knowing
28:20where she wants it to go and how to best fulfill but we're all in the same pool of of crossing our
28:28fingers hope and hope hope hope we get this right and we're working our butts off to make it happen
28:32but we're all a little bit scared and in that way that feels like a great place to create from in
28:39some way and you know if you're open to it i just want to say thank you because i will never forget
28:44this experience that we're going to work together a thousand times i'm just demanding i hope i hope
28:48so anyone listening hold this man accountable for that i want this so badly it's being recorded
28:54right yeah exactly no please and and uh but just really i mean there's no better the the you know
29:02awards and everything can be so ephemeral and and and random sometimes and you never know anything
29:08but i'm so congratulations so hard because uh never has anyone been more worthy for a nomination
29:16for an emmy in my mind because i know exactly what you put into it and i just feel like you know
29:22talent that that rare uh and and sometimes it can be easily sort of like oh it's them again or
29:28it's this again or something like that when you see what you guys did and freshened up everything
29:33for us and for i feel like um steve for everybody in that way what you were saying justin about this
29:40show it was very much built on that classic meets modern to me that's you guys in in a nutshell too
29:46and in what you did with this song is is everything that felt that way and i i uh i'm
29:51just so proud and and happy for you john we love you and thank you for letting us be a part of your
29:57your magical world you've created and we're just honestly i i feel so weird that season four is
30:02going to start and we know nothing about it now now we have to go back to just being regular
30:05just we're just fans we're just regular old fans now well this has been the best this has been the
30:11process um with uh benj pasick and justin paul again uh from only murders in the building the
30:18nominees for which of the picvic triplets did it and i cannot thank you enough this was a hell of
30:23a way to start my morning in l.a uh and and i i will continue many mornings hopefully in the future
30:30and uh please everybody if you haven't seen season three of only murders there's a lot that awaits
30:36and it's it mainly comes from these two geniuses so thank you all thanks i love
30:41talking to you guys i'll talk to you john thanks john bye