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(Current Affairs)
Host:
- Maria Memon
Guests:
- Shahid Khaqan Abbasi APP
- Raja Mohsin Ijaz (Reporter ARY News)
- Hasnaat Malik (Court Reporter)
Ex-PM Shahid Khaqan Abbasi told important facts regarding IPPs agreement
Reserved seats Case | Dissenting notes of Two judges | Hasnaat Malik & Raja Mohsin Ijaz Analysis
Kiya Hukumat aur ECP Ikhtalafi Note ko jawaz bana kar SC kay Faislay Par Amal nahi Kregi?
Follow the ARY News channel on WhatsApp: https://bit.ly/46e5HzY
Subscribe to our channel and press the bell icon for latest news updates: http://bit.ly/3e0SwKP
ARY News is a leading Pakistani news channel that promises to bring you factual and timely international stories and stories about Pakistan, sports, entertainment, and business, amid others.
(Current Affairs)
Host:
- Maria Memon
Guests:
- Shahid Khaqan Abbasi APP
- Raja Mohsin Ijaz (Reporter ARY News)
- Hasnaat Malik (Court Reporter)
Ex-PM Shahid Khaqan Abbasi told important facts regarding IPPs agreement
Reserved seats Case | Dissenting notes of Two judges | Hasnaat Malik & Raja Mohsin Ijaz Analysis
Kiya Hukumat aur ECP Ikhtalafi Note ko jawaz bana kar SC kay Faislay Par Amal nahi Kregi?
Follow the ARY News channel on WhatsApp: https://bit.ly/46e5HzY
Subscribe to our channel and press the bell icon for latest news updates: http://bit.ly/3e0SwKP
ARY News is a leading Pakistani news channel that promises to bring you factual and timely international stories and stories about Pakistan, sports, entertainment, and business, amid others.
Category
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NewsTranscript
00:00Assalam-o-Alaikum, with the program questioner, I am Maria Maven of Top Stories.
00:14Can the IPP problem be solved?
00:16We are getting a lot of electricity.
00:18Is there a solution to this?
00:20If there is, how much time will it take?
00:22How many more years will we have to wait?
00:24Before the program, let's talk about the IPP prospects.
00:27What are the differences in the IPP notes?
00:29The two judges' IPP notes were presented in the Supreme Court's judgment.
00:34What was the reason for this?
00:36Why did it come at this time?
00:38And what are its implications?
00:39We will discuss this in the second part of the program.
00:41In the last part, we will tell you about the role of Indian agents in politics in Pakistan.
00:46And we are a unique country where almost all political leaders have been Indian agents at some point.
00:53We will have an interesting comment on this at the end of the program.
00:56Let's talk about the IPPs.
00:58In the last two weeks, everyone has been talking about the IPPs.
01:03Whether it is the political parties, different pressure groups, or the people.
01:07People are talking about the IPPs everywhere.
01:10Because we have June, July, and August bills in our hands.
01:16And everyone has lost their minds.
01:18Let's take a look at the IPPs.
01:20Shahid Khan Abbasi is present.
01:21Former Prime Minister of Pakistan.
01:24There is a lot of suspicion in the public regarding the IPP agreement.
01:28And there is a lot of worry as well.
01:30We are all getting bills.
01:32If the government says that the IPP cannot be renegotiated.
01:35Nothing can be done about it.
01:37Then what can be done?
01:38Is it our fate to give this bill?
01:40That we will continue to give it until you give the capacity payment?
01:43Look, I am surprised that all these people who were talking,
01:49they do not know what the problem is.
01:52Alif Baidh does not know.
01:54And everyone is talking about it.
01:56All these faces that you have shown.
01:58If the IPPs are a problem at the cost of electricity, then the IPP is a small problem.
02:05All these expressions will tell you that the problem is the IPP.
02:09What percentage is the problem?
02:10Let's break it down.
02:11What percentage of the IPPs are responsible for it?
02:13Look, it is Rs.18.
02:15Rs.18 for the IPPs.
02:17Capacity charges.
02:18This happens all over the world.
02:20You pay for the capacity.
02:23When you use electricity, you pay for the fuel.
02:26Nuclear, hydel, coal, solar, wind and gas.
02:34These are renewables.
02:36They do not have a fuel payment.
02:38So all their payments are IPPs.
02:41So today we are paying Rs.18 per unit for the IPP.
02:48Out of Rs.18, 12 are owned by the government.
02:54Rs.12 is for the nuclear, hydel, four plants of the government, RLNG, solar and wind.
03:10These add up to Rs.12.
03:14Sometimes it will be Rs.11, sometimes Rs.12.
03:16The rest is for Rs.6.
03:18Out of Rs.6, Rs.3 is for coal.
03:24We extract coal.
03:27And Rs.3 or Rs.3.5 is for the three coal plants in China's CPEC.
03:38There is nothing left after that.
03:41The old plants in Musharraf and Benazir were paid Rs.3 or Rs.4.
03:50So the capacity payments are problematic?
03:57This happens all over the world.
03:59What is your problem?
04:00Is it problematic?
04:01Why?
04:02There are two problems.
04:04All these plants were initially paid Rs.40.
04:10The last one was paid Rs.115.
04:15Today it is Rs.285.
04:18But the government has capped it at Rs.145.
04:22No, it has not been capped.
04:23It has been renegotiated.
04:25It has been renegotiated at Rs.2.
04:30Out of Rs.18, Rs.2.
04:32I am not satisfied with the mass renegotiation.
04:35The furnace oil plants in Benazir Bhutto's government were renegotiated.
04:43The government did not comply with the two biggest requirements of the renegotiation.
04:50They were given 20-25 years.
04:52They were told that they will pay them on time.
04:57When the government did not pay them, they were given less money.
05:03When they did not pay the fuel charges, they were given more money.
05:07This has been renegotiated.
05:09The impact of this has been reduced to a small amount.
05:13So the first thing is to understand what the issue is.
05:17The issue has been created for two reasons.
05:20One, as I said, because of the dollar.
05:22Second, the electricity you have installed, you should have consumed 200 billion units.
05:33Electricity is always installed on your projected demand.
05:38We were making 90 billion units in 2013.
05:41That went to about 140 billion units.
05:44When your economy went down, it came to 110 instead of going up.
05:49So per unit, the capacity charge increased.
05:52So all this is linked to your economy.
05:56Otherwise, this IPP was here last year, the year before that, the year before that.
06:01It was in 2013, it was in 2014.
06:03But Mr. Abbasi, the problem is that when this was negotiated,
06:06the biggest criticism is that you knew that in the coming years,
06:10this price will increase, the dollar will not always be stable.
06:13We know about our economy.
06:14The dollar will go up and down.
06:16And eventually this capacity payment will be so painful that it will burden the public.
06:21This was one of the expectations, one of its forecasts.
06:24And that time has come now.
06:25First of all, it was not negotiated.
06:27There is no negotiated contract.
06:30The government of Pakistan has made a document called the Power Purchase Agreement.
06:35All these things are written in it.
06:37The government of Pakistan has made it.
06:38You cannot even change a word in it.
06:40Then you gave a sovereign guarantee.
06:42It is called the Implementation Agreement.
06:44The government of Pakistan, as a sovereign, guaranteed that we will pay.
06:49You made the tariff.
06:51In the beginning, the government of Pakistan, PPIB, later NEPRA came and made the tariff.
06:57That we will pay you this much.
06:59How much money will we pay?
07:01This will be the mechanism.
07:02And this is the fuel payment.
07:04There is no division in it.
07:06So the mistakes you have made,
07:10If investment comes in Pakistan,
07:13This was the method.
07:14They thought that the investment will come in this way.
07:17After the first few plants, you should not have given the tariff upfront.
07:23What was the reason for that?
07:24Because clearly there is some problem.
07:26Because of this, there is a dysfunction.
07:27The reason was that they did not understand.
07:29The stupidity of our government is due to this.
07:32You should have taken the tariff from the bid.
07:34In the beginning, you attracted people.
07:35Investment came.
07:36You had 18% return.
07:3918% and you also determined the price of electricity plants.
07:43That its plant price is $1 million per megawatt.
07:47This happened when the government put its four plants.
07:51Which were about 2015.
07:53Their tariff, NEPRA kept $1.1 billion per megawatt.
07:57Which was the capital cost.
07:58That is, the electricity plant will be put in this much.
08:00When it was put, it was put in 750,000.
08:04So, the tariff was about 45%.
08:06It came down by 40%.
08:08These were 5000 megawatt plants.
08:11Along with this, in CPEC, with the upfront tariff,
08:15which was given by NEPRA upfront.
08:17That is about 4000 megawatts.
08:20Their capacity payment is coming to you.
08:22Approximately 375,000.
08:25Their capacity payment is coming to you.
08:27Approximately 250,000.
08:29And this is 5000 megawatts.
08:31And this is 4000 megawatts.
08:33This proves that there was no transparency.
08:36There was no transparency.
08:37There were interest groups.
08:38Because of which, a certain sector.
08:39No, no, I am sorry.
08:40Then why didn't you do fair bidding?
08:42Fair bidding is also a mistake.
08:44It is a mistake.
08:45But, sir, such a sudden mistake does not happen in ignorance.
08:48Everyone knows what will be the consequence of this mistake.
08:51Estimation is done.
08:52Reports are made.
08:53It is not about the consequences.
08:54Someone is benefiting.
08:55Who is benefiting from it?
08:56No one is benefiting.
08:57You gave the tariff.
08:58Some people invested.
08:59Some did not.
09:00You see, we also gave a tariff of 28 cents of wind in Pakistan.
09:0628 cents.
09:08Which is now about 80-90 rupees per unit.
09:12No one came on that.
09:14There was no place in Pakistan to invest.
09:16We gave 23, 18, 15.
09:1911, 12 came.
09:20You are lucky that they did not come on that high tariff.
09:23So, point, if I ask a very easy question.
09:25Were the IPP agreements, especially from 2015 onwards,
09:29based on the best negotiated rates,
09:32based on the best possibilities at that time,
09:35or were there any other options that could have been availed?
09:38In hindsight, I am asking you.
09:39But, it is not negotiated.
09:40Sir, when it was being negotiated,
09:43at that time, everything was being decided.
09:45There was some rule of the game.
09:47No one negotiated.
09:48The government made the policy.
09:49It became a runway policy.
09:51The government made it.
09:53They then floated that policy in the market.
09:55Whoever wants to come and invest, invest.
09:57Big companies from all over the world came on it.
09:59Because there was no capital in Pakistan to invest.
10:02People came from outside.
10:03They invested.
10:04And they are climbing.
10:05It gave you electricity.
10:07So, your mistake,
10:09mistake, I consider it inappropriate,
10:11is that after the first few plants,
10:14you would have made the tariff a bid,
10:15you would have made a price discovery,
10:17made a bid.
10:18In 2017, when I was the Prime Minister,
10:21I was the Finance Minister.
10:23We changed it.
10:24We made a cabinet decision that
10:26after this, all the plants would be bid.
10:30PTI government came and reversed it.
10:32No, NEPRA will give upfront tariff.
10:34NEPRA does not have the capacity
10:36to determine the upfront tariff.
10:38It has been established.
10:40When the government put its plants,
10:42their cost was 1.1 million dollars per megawatt.
10:48When the government put its plants,
10:50look at the level of transparency.
10:52When the government put its plants,
10:54their cost was 7.5 million dollars per megawatt.
10:56That means the cost was 40% less
10:58than what NEPRA determined.
11:00This is NEPRA's inappropriateness.
11:03When you do not have the capacity
11:05for price determination,
11:06how can you get a bid price?
11:08They did not do it.
11:09Sir, it is also the fault of the rules.
11:11You made the rules in such a way
11:12that you gave the authority to the director
11:14and did not correct the systems.
11:15Yes, it is NEPRA's inappropriateness.
11:17But, if we tell people in a simple way,
11:19how long will we get the capacity payments
11:22that will be required in the bills?
11:24Will we get the same bill in a year or two?
11:26Is there any way to reduce the bill?
11:29These are the avenues
11:31in which the bill can be reduced.
11:32It is still 3-4 years.
11:33Sir, I did not understand one more thing
11:35in the capacity payments.
11:36We call it levelized tariff.
11:38When we tell you how it is,
11:40it is called levelized tariff.
11:42What is the average cost
11:44of levelized tariff in its lifetime?
11:46Actually, when a plant is planted,
11:48its tariff is very high
11:50in the initial 7-10 years.
11:52Because you have to bear
11:54the financial cost.
11:56There are heavy payments.
11:58If you have a levelized tariff
12:00of 7 cents,
12:02then actually,
12:04in the first 7-10 years,
12:06you will be giving it 10-11 cents.
12:08So, its charges are more.
12:10So, whatever new plants are planted,
12:12like the new plants of Thar,
12:14these 3 Chinese plants are new,
12:16your solar wind is also new,
12:18your RNG is also new,
12:20your nuclear is also new.
12:22After some time,
12:24their prices will be reduced.
12:26So, tell us the timeline.
12:28People want to know
12:30that their bills are so high now,
12:32will it be less next year?
12:34There will be a little difference
12:36in the capacity payments.
12:38But I will say that
12:40after 5 years, it will be a lot less.
12:42The problem is that
12:44the electricity system
12:46is in dollars.
12:48Our income
12:50is in rupees.
12:52So, when the dollar will be expensive,
12:54we will be buying electricity
12:56in rupees.
12:58What options does the government have?
13:00The government has options
13:02to first give clarity
13:04to the people of the country
13:06about the issues.
13:08There are all kinds of vested interests
13:10in the capacity charges.
13:12I told you that
13:14out of 18,
13:16Rs. 12 or Rs. 11.5
13:18is the government's own plan.
13:20The government has given clarity.
13:22Yes. After that,
13:24you have to find a way
13:26what you have to do.
13:28Then you have put a tax on fuel.
13:30RNG is 18% tax.
13:32There is also a tax on fossil fuel.
13:34So, the price will go up.
13:36It will not come down.
13:38You have to fix the economy.
13:40If our dollar
13:42was at Rs. 100 today,
13:44you can calculate it yourself.
13:46If our dollar was at Rs. 150 today,
13:48you would get half of your bill.
13:50You would be happy if I deducted half of your bill.
13:52If I had kept the dollar at Rs. 150,
13:54this would have happened.
13:56When your economy weakens,
13:58you will get more bill.
14:00Until the economy is not politically stable,
14:02the economy will not be strong.
14:04Understand this.
14:06Your bill is also related to
14:08the political instability of the country.
14:10It is related to the election robbery.
14:12Thank you very much.
14:14Mr. Shahid Khan Abbasi is with us.
14:16He was answering our questions
14:18related to IPPs.
14:20We will come back after the break.
14:22Two judges who gave a minority judgment
14:24have published their controversial note.
14:26What is being said in that controversial note?
14:28What will be the implications of it?
14:30We will talk about it after the break.
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