Keli Goff, a Daily Beast columnist and Emmy-nominated producer of the documentary Reversing Roe, spoke with ForbesWomen editor Maggie McGrath about Vice President Harris' likelihood of being elected to the nation's highest office.
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00:00Hi, everyone. I'm Maggie McGrath, editor of Forbes Women. Over the weekend, President Biden announced that he is dropping out of the presidential race, and he is endorsing Vice President Kamala Harris to be the candidate for the Democratic Party.
00:19Joining us now is Kelly Gough. She is a columnist for The Daily Beast, an Emmy-nominated producer of the documentary Reversing Row, and she has a new column out that's getting a lot of attention about why America might be ready for a black female president, but Vice President Harris may not be that person. Kelly, thank you so much for joining us.
00:43Thanks for having me.
00:45So the title of your piece, I want to check my notes to make sure. Yeah, you're right. America is ready for a black female president, but not Kamala Harris. Can you just take us through why do you say that?
00:56Well, so this actually has been something that I've been thinking about for a very long time, because as I make clear in the piece, I admire Vice President Harris. But something I noticed when she first ran for president in 2019, and if you'll recall, she was one of the first candidates to drop out.
01:13One of the things I noticed is that a lot of her critics, at least within my own family and social circle, tended to be black women, particularly black women of a certain age. And that was something I started kind of, you know, keeping a mental note of. And it was something that didn't seem to subside. And so that's really what the piece is about, is kind of my journey to understanding why there might be a generational divide in regards to how certain black women view Kamala Harris.
01:39But I also think there might also just be a personality divide, because as I described her in the piece, you know, she seems like a bossy woman, which is not a problem for me, because I'm sometimes called a bossy woman. But I also note that, you know, I know I'm not representative of the majority of voters, because I happen to be a black woman with a graduate degree who's child free by choice, and I live in a major urban city.
02:00And so I understand that not everyone, you know, has the pom poms out for women like me. If they did, Hillary Clinton would have become president. She did not. And so I really go through the data and try to understand why it is that Hillary Clinton and Kamala Harris, women like that, seem to elicit such a strong reaction.
02:19And the conclusion I really came to, Maggie, is that why they elicit the reaction they do is actually less important than the fact that they do, and that with their name recognition, neither one of them seem to be able to kind of make inroads with those people who had decided early on, not my kind of woman, don't like her, not voting for her.
02:38And I just think this election is too important to kind of go through the motions, like a lot of people did last time, where they were so fixated on wanting to see the first female president, they were so fixated on the fact that they loved Hillary Clinton, that they ignored the fact that a lot of Americans did not. And I think that's what's happening again this time around.
02:54That's really interesting. I was going to ask you if the racism and sexism and gender identities that come into play for that electability or likability question really mattered. But your point, I just want to underscore, it kind of doesn't matter why people say that what matters is that they do feel this way. And it matters that they're saying there's just something about her.
03:16Well, I want to be very clear, my formal, very educated perspective on this is racism and sexism really suck. That's my very fancy, you know, way to sort of distill all of this. But they exist. And I do think they play a role in some of the criticism of her. I don't think they play a role in all of the criticism of her, because if that were the case, and she would be doing as well, in terms of favorability, with black women as a candidate.
03:45But she doesn't. And one of the things I know in the piece is if you look at her unfavorables, Barack Obama holds about a 10% unfavorable with black voters. Kamala Harris holds around 22%, which sounds insignificant, except for when you start looking at how close our last few elections have been. And as we all know, they've often come down to a few thousand votes in a few counties in some crucial swing states.
04:12So if her likability has not improved in the however many years she's now been on the national stage, I don't think they're improving. She's a known quantity. And so people have made up their minds about who she is and who they think she is. And I don't think that's changing.
04:30If you contrast that to Barack Obama, if you'll recall, early on when he appeared on the national stage, the criticism was simply like, he's not experienced enough. But people are like, I kind of like this kid. He seems like a nice guy. I like his wife. I like his family. And that carried him through on some of the other question marks. I actually think she has the opposite problem where everyone knows the resume, and they're still going, there's just something about her, which I get to in the pieces. You know, I talk about people describe saying about women that they don't like. There's just something about her.
04:57Exactly. When you look at Vice President Harris's leadership and her record as second in command, what do you think her strengths are as a leader? And what do you think the weaknesses are as a leader? Let's talk about policy and leadership here. Obviously, we have the electability, likability questions, but it matters to people where their candidates stand on issues and how they act as leaders.
05:22Well, so I actually think those are two different questions, Maggie. I think policy, where they stand on policy and what kind of leader they are, two different questions. And I think depending on the candidate, if they are strong in one area, that can help them in their weaknesses in the other. So Barack Obama is a great example of that, in that there were people, if you looked at the data, who actually didn't agree with him on every policy, but they felt like he seems like a nice guy.
05:45He seems to be a good leader in that he delegates. And if you'll remember, the nickname for his campaign was No Drama Obama, because they didn't have lots of staff turnover. They didn't have lots of leaks. They did not have lots of infighting. My understanding is that his leadership style was really, I don't tolerate that. We have too much to get done for that.
06:03You contrast that with someone like Vice President Harris, who's had a ton of staff turnover throughout her career, not just as Vice President, which is public knowledge because those records are public, but going back to when she was an Attorney General. And so I think there are questions about her leadership style that might do the inverse for Obama, where it makes people pause and go, well, if I agree with her on certain policies, but she's not going to be able to implement them because she can't build consensus with staff or across the office.
06:33If I agree with her leadership style with Republicans, then maybe I need to pause and consider whether or not to vote for her.
06:40Kelly, I'm glad you brought up the staff turnover. There have been reports this week that put that number just in the VP office at 90% turnover. I remember the headlines from when she ran as a candidate herself in the 2020 election. There were reports of staff turnover.
06:55Then you mentioned the Attorney General. How big a factor is this? And what does it tell you about her leadership style?
07:02So there are male candidates, I want to be clear, who've had high staff turnover, too. I think the problem is I equate it to the Dan Quayle phenomenon, which is Dan Quayle was ridiculed as sort of the good-looking, intellectual lightweight who was picked because he was young and attractive and kind of balanced out President Bush's ticket.
07:23There was already this built-in stereotype. So that way, when he misspelled potato, which we'll all recall at the elementary school, it played into what was already a negative stereotype held by many, which is that this guy's not very bright.
07:35Now, if Bill Clinton, who'd been a Rhodes Scholar, misspelled potato, it would just be a hilarious story that people would say, even a Rhodes Scholar misspells potato once in a while, right?
07:44So I think the problem with Vice President Harris, if you already have these built-in question marks about her likability, and then people see the staff turnover numbers, it plays into that.
07:55Whether that's right or wrong, it plays into that, because at the end of the day, regardless of why a staff member leaves, you chose them.
08:03So if it didn't work out, there has to be a reason. It's sort of like all of us who have the friends who keep going through messy breakups.
08:09And at a certain point, you go, the guys may all be jerks, but you keep choosing them, right?
08:13So that's what I think is really kind of the problem for her.
08:17You asked about her strength. I mean, obviously, with Roe v. Wade having essentially been neutered, and that's something obviously I care a lot about.
08:27I made the film Reversing Roe, which is on the history of abortion, legal cases throughout America, particularly in the courts.
08:34But I think that's one of the issues that they have seen as one of her strengths, right?
08:39She can get on the campaign trail and talk about that.
08:41But again, it kind of becomes a chicken or the egg, which is if you don't have the leadership style that can actually sustain the strategic battles needed to implement policy or challenge policy, I think that it gives certain voters pause.
08:57Interesting. Now, of course, in the first 24 hours after President Biden's announcement that he is dropping out of the race, Vice President Harris's new campaign has raised millions and millions of dollars.
09:12I think the final tally was somewhere just over 80 million dollars from grassroots donors in 24 hours.
09:19Does that number signal to you that maybe her likability is evolving and her electability is better?
09:26I mean, I know you published this piece yesterday, so you saw these numbers.
09:30So I imagine I had friends who were on the call.
09:33I had friends who were on the call and the call you referenced.
09:35I just want to be very clear. Was that the Zoom call with forty four thousand other black women that's made headlines around the world?
09:42So there is excitement. I guess my question to you is, is there enough excitement?
09:48We'll find out in November. I mean, you know, I say in this piece, Maggie, I'm not a Trump fan.
09:52I'm very clear about that. So I make it clear in the piece that my hope is that in November, late November, all my friends who who don't like this piece and didn't agree with it are able to tease me about how wrong I was.
10:04But, you know, guess what? A few years ago, they weren't teasing me because I was wrong about the possibility of Donald Trump winning the first time.
10:13So that's why I think this time people really need to take a step back and have some of the tough conversations that were not had before,
10:20because people were so swept up in the emotion of making history with the first female president.
10:25Remember, those magazine covers had been printed celebrating Hillary Clinton as the first female president.
10:30And I now look back and think that if some tougher questions had been asked, not just about likability,
10:36but actually the numbers of what the data was telling us of what people thought and why.
10:40I think there'd be less PTSD, as you point out.
10:43And that's what I'm concerned about this time is that those numbers are great.
10:47The call is great. The fundraising is great. Guess what?
10:49She was one of the best fundraisers out of the gate when she ran for president last time and everyone saw how that turned out.
10:55So I think that's my concern is my question is, that's great.
10:59If the same people who were supporting her before and enthusiastic before are equally enthusiastic this time.
11:05My question is about the people who she has not reached yet, because here's my theory.
11:10I actually think people are looking at not looking at the big picture of the data.
11:15I think they're so focused on the voters that Trump can't win without remembering.
11:22He actually doesn't have to win a lot more voters. All he has to do is suppress turnout and enthusiasm for her.
11:27And if he can find a way to pick off some of those people who don't like her for whatever reason and convinces them either to stay home or to vote for Bobby Kennedy,
11:37which is some of the stuff I've heard, then he still wins the race.
11:41I think that's what people are forgetting, is that, well, which black women are going to go and vote for Trump?
11:46That doesn't actually have to happen if they're just not enthusiastic.
11:49And he suppresses turnout even just a little bit, as we've seen from the last couple elections, that can make a difference.
11:55You mentioned the need to ask tough questions.
11:57So if you were in her campaign, if you were, you know, whispering in her ear or shouting into the void,
12:06what are the one or two tough questions that you would be asking her or that you would want to see voters ask to advance the conversation beyond just that of likability?
12:17So I actually am going to challenge the premise of your question.
12:20I have found that there are kind of two kinds of candidates in my long history of covering politics and knowing politicians.
12:27And there are those who take their criticism and say, so what?
12:30I am who I am and I don't have to make a change. And then there are those who actually get elected.
12:35So what I would say is an example would be, you know, George W.
12:39Bush had that very embarrassing interview where he kind of face planted when asked about foreign policy.
12:46Now, what he could have done is said, alas, Sarah Palin, like I think some of this is a little silly and elitist and I don't have to do that.
12:53What he did instead was say, I'm going to put my nose in a book and I'm going to knock it out of the park in the first debate.
12:59And I'm going to surround myself with people who prove to the American public that I heard them.
13:04And then I take this concern about me being a lightweight seriously, like Colin Powell and Condoleezza Rice.
13:10I think that that's what I would encourage her to do is to actually look at instead of just being dismissive,
13:15which is what some of the reaction to the piece has been from people who are her fans, which is just Kelly, I disagree with you.
13:21And this is I just disagree as opposed to, oh, that's interesting.
13:26Let's talk about this. And how do we address it?
13:28What I predict is going to happen, Maggie, because there are some smart people working on that campaign.
13:32They're going to start having focus groups and the focus groups that they're going to be listening into,
13:36especially in swing states, are going to start proving that all of this issue about likability is not simply in our heads.
13:43Right. It's actually exist. And that means that they actually have to address it and take it seriously if they want her to win.
13:49What I would encourage her to do is to actually sit down and say in an interview, listen, I know that first impressions matter.
13:56I know some voters don't think I've made a great one and I'm working on it.
13:59I'm going around the country to listen to their concerns and to show them that I care and I'm invested in proving them wrong.
14:06I think that would go a long way. I was also going to ask you that if you were her, is there.
14:12And I heard your point about leadership and policy and how one affects the other.
14:18But if we're talking policy, if we're talking things that she could say on the campaign trail to better connect with voters,
14:25everyone is worried about their grocery bill right now. I mean, even I, when I go shopping, I see how much more expensive it is.
14:32I'm picking on that because I care about groceries. But if you were her,
14:35what are the one or two issues you would start talking about more to better connect with voters?
14:42Well, I actually do think talking about immigration in a smart way matters.
14:45I'm from Texas and I think there's kind of become this reflexive urge among liberals,
14:50progressives and Democrats to be dismissive about how that can hurt people, particularly the working class, the middle class, and be of concern to them.
14:57I think that's possibly one of the reasons why she's not doing as well among black voters as she could have.
15:02Obama actually deported a lot of people. He got a lot of flack for it, but he got reelected.
15:06You know what I mean? He won two elections. So I think she has to talk more candidly about that,
15:12because Trump actually won Hispanic voters along the border in Texas, where I'm from.
15:17Even though Hillary won them the first time, Trump won them when Joe Biden's in the 2020 election.
15:22So I think that's the first thing. The second thing is she's already starting to be attacked for not being a mother.
15:27She's a stepmother. But those of us who are child free by choice are actually one of the fastest growing demographics in America.
15:34And I think there's this fear of talking about what unites us as women beyond motherhood.
15:40I actually think she could be the first candidate to do that really, really well.
15:43Maggie to say that, Maggie, your grocery bill is a problem. That's a problem in my household, too.
15:48Right there. There are issues that define us beyond simply giving birth.
15:52And I think that the the conservatives, including J.D. Vance, who are going after her over that are making a mistake.
15:58And instead of running from it, I actually think she should embrace that conversation.
16:02I think it's an important one to have as someone who is also child free by choice.
16:07I had the same conversation with someone off camera earlier about how I think there are more of us out there than perhaps people attacking that choice realize.
16:17Now, Kelly, you mentioned the reaction to your piece. And I just I want to dig into this a little bit more.
16:23You've heard from a lot of folks. Do people agree with you?
16:26Do they think she should be the candidate for the Democratic Party or do what? What are people saying?
16:34So it's really interesting because I have there are people, including friends of mine who did not appreciate the piece, but they didn't say it was wrong.
16:42They just wish I didn't write it. You know what I mean? It's that kind of thing.
16:45Like, why do you have to say that? Come on, Kelly. Why do you have to say that?
16:49And I'm kind of like, because that's what I do. I try to be a truth teller in my work.
16:52What else are we doing if that's not what we're all going to do with these platforms that people like you and me have?
16:57The other notes I've received, Maggie, including from some never Trump Republicans and Democrats, even some from progressives is thank you.
17:06I've had people who have privately reached out, some of whom have public platforms of their own who have said thank you for saying what some of us can't out loud, which is it.
17:16In other words, I said in the in the light what a lot of them have been saying in the dark.
17:21Some of whom told me they've been saying it for several weeks, having arguments with friends about it.
17:25But they feel that I was kind of the first person who is in her corner and not anti Kamala to say it out loud.
17:31So I'm happy to take whatever flat comes with that if it helps advance an important conversation, including in her campaign, Maggie, which is what my mother thinks.
17:39My mom said, hey, maybe they'll read it. It'll open some eyes and it will help her do exactly what you said, which is to sort of improve with some of those voters.
17:47She has not won over yet.
17:49Now, at the end of your piece, you mention a few different other names, including, I think, Tammy Duckworth, Michelle Kwan, people who could be interesting to voters.
17:58And I want to clarify, would you propose them as challengers at the convention or would they make good number twos for her?
18:05What are you thinking there? Well, listen, I'm going to get flack for saying this out loud because I know there's so much controversy around these days.
18:14I don't see a version of this where she if she stays in the ticket, she doesn't choose a white male and probably a straight white male is what I would anticipate.
18:23I think for all of the chatter about how far our country has come, I think even she and her campaign know that.
18:28And by the way, Eric Holder is leading her search for VP or VP vetting process and I'm a big fan of his.
18:36But what I was going to say is I think that in an ideal world, and this is the case I make in the piece, the only way this really works out for Democrats in a non in a peaceful, non divisive way would be for her to step aside.
18:50I know that's very unlikely or someone in my family said, wake up, you're dreaming.
18:55But if she were to do that, I think that would show a lot of courage and true leadership in the same way Joe Biden stepping aside did.
19:04So my question, Maggie, which I don't have the answer to, is if those focus groups, which I believe they probably already started now and they start listening in and see that it's a mountain too far for her, too high for her to climb,
19:16then she could find a way to bow out gracefully.
19:19And then some of the people I propose could sort of slide in there.
19:22That's what I would say.
19:24Interesting. We're down to the final 30 seconds.
19:27So you've proposed a lot of really intriguing ideas and questions, but I want to end with one more.
19:32What is your prediction for what we're going to see from the DNC next month?
19:38A lot of the reintroduction of Kamala, you know, as someone who was complaining last night in The Washington Post comment section, why does she wear so much brown?
19:48That sounds silly, but when people elect people based on who they want to have a beer with, I think we're going to start seeing her in some pink cashmere sweaters to soften that image because there are people who care about such things.
19:59Maybe not you and me, but some people.
20:01Interesting. Kelly Goff, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us.
20:04We so appreciate your time.