Journalist Zain Khan podcast with Pakistan Airforce Chief (R) Kaleem Saadat on Operation Swift Retort for Tactical Talk.
Chief of Air Staff (R) Kaleem Saadat & Journalist TV Host Zain Khan podcast on the limited war battled out in aerial skirmishes between Pakistan & India after the Pulwama attack and Balakot incident on Tactical Talk.
Chief of Air Staff (R) Kaleem Saadat & Journalist TV Host Zain Khan podcast on the limited war battled out in aerial skirmishes between Pakistan & India after the Pulwama attack and Balakot incident on Tactical Talk.
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NewsTranscript
00:00Welcome to Tactical Talk, this is Zain Khan.
00:20Today the topic of our show is Balakot and beyond, Pakistan and India's limited war.
00:27After the Pulwama attack, both nuclear armed rivals, Pakistan and India, were on the verge
00:33of a full-scale war.
00:35They battled it out in skirmishes which some observers and think tanks labeled and termed
00:42it as a limited war, but in the age of hybrid warfare and information warfare, many are
00:47still confused as to what really happened.
00:51We were lucky enough to have one of Pakistan's previous air chiefs, Kaleem Sadat, he is also
00:55heading a leading think tank in Islamabad, Centre for Aerospace and Security Studies, CASS.
01:05To give us analysis about what really happened and what could have happened if things got
01:10out of control, let's head to our face-to-face interview with our senior guest.
01:18Thank you so much sir for being in our show, it was a pleasure having you and thank you
01:21so much for taking out the time to discuss this very important topic.
01:26Thank you for taking the trouble of coming from Lahore all the way, it's my pleasure
01:31to have you here.
01:32Sir, the pleasure is all ours.
01:34Sir, I wanted to get to the first question and ask you, you know since the recent escalation
01:40between Pakistan and India after the Pulwama attacks, they were mainly, the skirmish and
01:47the escalation that happened was mainly on the aerial domain.
01:51Why do you think that is so?
01:55It is because of the importance of air power.
02:01It is a weapon of first resort, whenever any tension takes place, the air forces are deployed
02:07first because they can act with great deal of rapidity and they can go long distances
02:14to attack their targets, so they have exercised a lot of flexibility.
02:18It is because of these traits of the air power that often they are called upon right in the
02:23beginning of any conflict to play their role.
02:26So that is why it started with the air power.
02:28Sir, let's get to the next question.
02:32What is India's grand design for the region?
02:38India's grand design is of course, it is on its way to becoming a superpower.
02:44In the South Asia region, it has already been a dominant power.
02:48It has been able to dominate all other countries in the region except Pakistan.
02:54So that is something very, something unacceptable for the Indians.
03:00So they want to, you know, suppress Pakistan.
03:04They want to impress upon Pakistan that whatever India says goes.
03:09Unfortunately, whatever India says is contrary to our national interest.
03:14So obviously we will not be able to accept that.
03:18So they have tried all kinds of things.
03:20They have tried to tell their public that they will bring into play doctrines that will
03:27be, with which they will be able to teach Pakistan a lesson and they will be able to
03:32harm Pakistan.
03:34In that, you have seen the advent of Cold Star Doctrine and now they were reorganizing
03:41their army into independent brigade groups that would be able to mobilize rapidly and,
03:49you know, travel across land and occupy territory rapidly, etc.
03:54So these are attempts at, you know, doing things in a manner that they are able to capture
04:03sizable Pakistani territory before the United Nations and other world powers come into,
04:09in an effort to mediate between the two warring parties.
04:13So this is their grand design.
04:17And they have not been able to do it yet.
04:24But their aspirations are the same that, you know, we can do whatever we want to and Pakistan
04:30will not have a response.
04:33It's very clear that Pakistan will have a response.
04:37Pakistan has considerable capability to cause damage.
04:40If India has a larger economy as compared to Pakistan, it is also liable to suffer greater
04:48dislocation, economic dislocation as a result of Pakistani action.
04:52So that is a lesson that must not be lost on the Indians.
04:57There have been various costs calculated about how much a war, how much a conventional war
05:04will cost India and the cost estimates have gone as high as half a trillion dollars, you
05:12know, the type of damage that it can do.
05:15So this is not, there is not going to be a free walkover for India.
05:21This India must understand.
05:23I'm sure they're thinking, not their hawks, but their doves do understand this.
05:29And some of the thinking leaders that you understand, they admit this that Pakistan
05:36cannot be defeated militarily, you know.
05:39So that is why they indulge in hybrid war, you know.
05:42After 27th of February, what you're seeing is that the subversive actions are increasing.
05:50The terrorist acts, what happened to Hazaras, you know, what happened to the Levis, what
05:55happened to the Khasadas, etc.
05:57All this activity has picked up after, because they suffered a setback in Kashmir.
06:05They could not respond in the same domain, you know.
06:08So they brought into play what they call cross-domain deterrence, that in the hybrid
06:13domain they are trying to cover up what they lost on the conventional domain.
06:19So this is, of course, Pakistan is aware of it and Pakistan will have to do everything
06:27in its power to defeat this design.
06:30Sir, you know, many experts in the West and also in Pakistan believe that the recent Pulwama
06:36attacks were basically, they call it electioneering by the Indians.
06:41Is that the case, that, you know, the elections are near and this false flag operation happened
06:46to help a certain political party in India to win the elections, or do you think that
06:52this is basically the evolution of India's cold start doctrine?
06:59No, I think it was basically the objectives were political.
07:05Before the elections, Mr. Modi's poll numbers were in low 30s and after the Pulwama action
07:16and after what they did on 26th of February and subsequently it went up to 60-62%.
07:23So obviously these were the objectives that they were wishing to achieve and they did
07:28achieve those.
07:29However, political objectives were achieved, the military ones not necessarily so.
07:37And this has been a constant, you know, because the government, what Mr. Modi promised to
07:42the public in terms of achievement, in terms of employment, in terms of further improvement
07:47in their life style and all, like in sanitation and other basic facilities that they were
07:54to provide to the poor people or lifting people out of poverty, he failed on those fronts.
08:03And the only way that he could get re-elected was by playing with the sentiments of people.
08:09And those sentiments are best done when they want to show their dislike for Pakistan.
08:18Because Pakistan is always an issue in Indian elections, unlike the opposite.
08:23In Pakistani elections nobody talks about India.
08:27But there every prospective candidate makes sure that he appears to be tough on Pakistan
08:34and he also promises that once elected, he or she will teach a lesson to Pakistan.
08:41So it is that larger scheme and a constant scheme that has been played out every time.
08:46And this time because Mr. Modi was in deeper trouble than the other predecessors, so he
08:54went about it in a very overt manner.
08:57And that's what we saw.
09:00Sir, I want to get into the details of this whole event and the limited war that some
09:05experts say that Pakistan and India had after the Bulwama.
09:11India claimed that it striked a terror camp in Pakistan, supposedly, that killed around
09:18300 people.
09:19Their home minister came up and made that claim as well, backed it up.
09:24But then all of a sudden their air chief came and he said that, you know, we don't
09:29count any casualties, we don't have that data.
09:34What is your opinion?
09:35Why is there so much paradoxical statements coming out from the Indians?
09:41What's your analysis?
09:43Actually, what happened was that they did not manage to strike the intended targets.
09:52The bombs fell from that Madrasa that they were trying to attack about 300 to 500 yards
09:59on either side and even ahead of it.
10:02And the reason for that is that these weapons were launched from very high altitude, perhaps,
10:07and because of strong winds, they could not find their target.
10:11But for the consumption of the public, they had to make claims and they made these false
10:16claims.
10:17But subsequently, when the public did not believe them and they had to come out and
10:23address a press conference, a joint armed forces press conference, the people, the press
10:28that is media, wanted proofs or evidence that, you know, this Madrasa was attacked or this
10:35militant hideout was attacked and that so many people had been killed.
10:41So in response to that, the air chief had to then, you know, retrace his steps and say
10:48that we are not into the business of counting bodies, it's for the government to count bodies.
10:54I mean, how can the government also count bodies across the border?
10:57The fact of the matter is that that structure stood before 26 February and it is still standing.
11:04And all they managed to do was to create some craters on the mountainside and maybe uproot
11:10a couple of trees and that's all they were able to manage.
11:14So it is because of their failure that they had to retrace their steps and also indulge
11:24in falsehood to hide their feelings.
11:28Sir, after the so-called Indian strikes on Pakistan, so-called, Indians started to gloat,
11:36they started to, you know, their media went really berserk.
11:41But the very next day, the Pakistan Air Force, it made its own strikes and it also downed,
11:51you know, Indian jets and etc.
11:56Do you think, you know, this will help deter future conflict and, you know, with India?
12:05And will the Indians stop underestimating the Pakistan Air Force?
12:12I think so.
12:14It is evident that they suffered a setback both on the 27th and on the 26th.
12:21On 27th, because they failed to engage the target that they intended to.
12:27And on 27th morning, they lost two fighters and one of their pilots was captured.
12:35And the PF also demonstrated that it had the ability to attack any target that it
12:41wanted to.
12:43What ultimately transpired was that intentionally, at the last moment, the weapons were made
12:49to shift a little bit so that we don't cause damage onto military targets and prevent escalation.
12:56So we, rather the Pakistan Air Force, did an excellent job.
13:05And of course, it is because of many factors that we could talk about later.
13:11Sir, we've seen in history, how does the Pakistan Air Force manage to always deter and compete
13:20with a bigger adversary?
13:24Tell us more about what's in their training.
13:27What's the key behind their success?
13:31I think historically, Pakistan Air Force has always enjoyed a technological edge over India.
13:40Earlier on, it was American weaponry and American aeroplanes in the hands of Pakistani pilots,
13:49while Indians had Russian weaponry and Russian aeroplanes.
13:55Also, the American tactics and other things, training is much more sophisticated and much
14:05more effective than it has turned out to be in the case of the Russians.
14:10Whether it is engagement here or it is engagements in the Middle East, when all the Arab countries
14:16were being supported by the Russians and Israel was being supported by America, Israel indeed
14:23had an upper hand.
14:25So it's always, like in the 1965 war, we had air-to-air missiles.
14:31Indians did not have those or if they had on some, they were not as effective.
14:37We had the Starfighter and there was no comparable aeroplane in the Indian inventory.
14:41So whenever the Starfighter F-104 appeared on the horizon, the Indians ran helter-skelter.
14:49In the 71 war, we had the Mirages, which had been inducted about 3-4 years back in 1967
14:57and so that gave us a strike capability.
15:01So despite numerical inferiority, there was this slight technological edge which makes
15:10a difference.
15:11Even in today's, this thing, Indian Air Force is not weak in terms of their equipment, in
15:18terms of their strength, number of aeroplanes, etc. and the infrastructure layout, the bases
15:25that are lined up across the border, yet psychologically I think they feel at a disadvantage because
15:35In the end, both their Air Force and their Prime Minister lamented that if we had the
15:42Rafale, it would not have happened to us.
15:45So there is perhaps a little bit of psychological pressure.
15:48Earlier on it was the F-104, these days it is the F-16 and the weaponry that it carries
15:55that has a bearing on their morale, etc. and it is because of that that perhaps we came
16:02out much better than them.
16:05Sir, I have recently been seeing that the Indian Air Force's planes have been crashing
16:13their fighter jets either while they are training or either by Pakistan's Air Force deterring
16:19their aggression.
16:21Their planes have been basically crashing.
16:25Now they are eyeing, as you have said, the Rafales.
16:30In your opinion, can you give us a little more information about JF-17 Thunder's Block
16:373 and tell us, will it give a good competition to the Rafales, the Block 3?
16:45I am not privy to the total capability of the Block 3 right now.
16:52But historically, if we look at it, that every time any side, any of the protagonist
17:00has enhanced its capability, the other party has had to improve their capabilities also.
17:07That has been going on.
17:08So if India inducts the Rafale or the S-400, Pakistan will have to do back borrow or steal
17:17and get the equipment that will negate or neutralize these capabilities.
17:22Sadly, all these events like these, these conflicts or semi-conflicts or non-conflicts,
17:32they do nothing but accelerate the arms race in the region.
17:37In a region where there is so much of poverty, in a region where there is so much of deprivation,
17:43it is madness to keep spending on arms, etc.
17:47And if you look at it critically, even in the present case, who do you think are the
17:54gainers in this whole skirmish?
17:56It is the arm manufacturers, you know, on both sides.
18:00India will go to France, it will go to the USA, Pakistan per force will have to go to
18:04China, you know.
18:06So in the end, the arms manufacturers will gain.
18:10They will get Rafale, we will get the J-10 or maybe something else, whatever the Chinese
18:15latest equipment is, to keep up with India.
18:20So that is why it is important that Mr. Modi and, you know, his cabinet understand that
18:26what are the economic implications of this arms race.
18:30Just because you want to teach Pakistan a lesson within inverted commas, you go to these
18:36lengths to deprive your people of, you know, the basic necessities of life, sanitation,
18:42clean drinking water, enough food, etc.
18:47Imagine that the Rafale that they have signed is going to cost them 1300 crore Indian rupees
18:55per aeroplane.
18:57Can you imagine that with 1300 crore rupees, how many villages, how many towns, how many
19:04cities and the facilities that can be turned around over there?
19:08And just because they want to have a slight edge over the Pakistan Air Force to browbeat
19:15them, to scare them and all, they go to these lengths.
19:19In my judgment, this is not what the region needs.
19:22Neither Pakistan nor India, we don't need more sophisticated, more capable, more costly
19:28weapons.
19:30We need to live in peace, you know, and learn to coexist as a good neighbor and not make
19:38efforts to undermine the other or to weaken the other or to destroy the other.
19:45So it is sad, actually.
19:47Sir, obviously, as you've said, that the region does not need any escalation.
19:52I would further want to ask you, after the Pakistan Air Force obviously internationally
19:58embarrassed the Indian Air Force, we've heard our government also telling us and through
20:06different think tanks that India basically deployed their BrahMos missiles.
20:12If that was the case, if, God forbid, an attack happened on Pakistan, what is your analysis?
20:22What would Pakistan's response be?
20:25How would it all put off?
20:28Actually, the launch of BrahMos or any other surface-to-surface weapon, longer range, would
20:38have been a very critical escalation.
20:43It would have been madness to escalate it to that level.
20:46Because when missiles are launched towards one another, it is difficult to differentiate
20:53whether they are nuclear-tipped or they are conventional.
20:56Because there is not enough time, nobody will wait for the impact across the border to decide
21:02to launch one or the other.
21:10But why they chose or why they wanted to do this was that after the setback that they
21:14suffered on 27th February, they could not send a large number of Indian aeroplanes across
21:20the border to attack our deeper targets, to get sort of even with us.
21:28Because if they had crossed the border in large numbers, 20, 30, 40 aeroplanes, they
21:33may have lost 5-10 aeroplanes to our interceptors.
21:38So they didn't want to take that risk.
21:39It would have piled up more misery on them.
21:42So instead they decided that it is safe to launch a surface-to-surface weapon or air-to-surface
21:48weapons over long distances because the carrier platform or the launching pad is beyond the
21:58range of the opposing side's weapons.
22:00So that is why they chose this strategy.
22:05But through our common friends, we told them very clearly that if this happens, we will
22:11also do whatever we can and we will not sit idle.
22:16We will not sit back and accept this even though it may be a conventional weapon.
22:21So I think the international powers, they intervened and they knocked some sense into
22:28the Indians that this is not required.
22:33But I guess the bottom line was that we did not cross the nuclear threshold that they
22:39were trying to launch BrahMos, etc. at us.
22:43We had probably crossed their embarrassment threshold that they had such a big country,
22:50such big armed forces with such great numbers and capabilities and yet in the first engagement
22:57they suffered a setback.
22:58It was very embarrassing.
23:00And that is why in all press conferences, whether it was the Joint Armed Forces press
23:06conference or it was the Indian Air Force Chief himself, whenever the press asked for
23:11details, they refused to comment on this particular engagement by saying that these
23:16are ongoing operations, we don't comment on it.
23:19So they were trying to avoid the subject that was being agitated and so they perhaps have
23:31a difficulty reconciling to the embarrassment that they faced.
23:35Sir, has this become like a new normal in the subcontinent that whenever any attack
23:41happens in Kashmir, Indian occupied Kashmir, India starts to blame Pakistan and then tries
23:47to attack Pakistan.
23:50Do you think this has become the new normal?
23:52And if it is the new normal, what do you think, what is your analysis that, how would Pakistan
24:00respond to such behavior from its neighbor?
24:05Actually, they were trying to make this a new normal.
24:11But because of what happened on 27th of February, it has suffered a setback.
24:17Because they were trying to browbeat Pakistan, to scare Pakistan.
24:25Even in this mobilization during the 2001-2002 crisis when the Indian Parliament was attacked
24:32and Pakistan Air Force was deployed for about 9-10 months, at that time also they had mobilized
24:41in a hurry, brought all their troops to our borders, deployed their aeroplanes etc.
24:47But yet they could not take the risk of indulging in an open conventional war.
24:56And so their troops stayed in their positions for 9-10 months with nothing happening.
25:03You know, they were flying training missions on their side, we were flying training missions
25:06on our side.
25:08And then they wanted to now withdraw their forces.
25:12But they needed an excuse to be able to withdraw their forces.
25:20And that excuse would have been that similarly like they tried to do in Balakot, to try to
25:26attack an alleged terrorist training camp and present to its public that, you know,
25:33they had gotten even with Pakistan, they had taken revenge for whatever terrorist incident
25:38had taken place.
25:41And then they could have gone back.
25:45Intermediaries from other countries came to us and they said please allow them to do this,
25:50you know, they will drop some bombs here and there and so just don't react and, you know,
25:57they will withdraw their troops.
25:59So we told them, look, they brought these troops of their own free will.
26:05We didn't force them.
26:06We didn't start it.
26:07We deployed in defense.
26:09It was their initiative to start the mobilization.
26:13And now perhaps if they don't want to do anything or they can't do anything, it is up to them
26:17to take them back or it is up to them to keep them over there.
26:21But they said, but what will you do if you, if they were to do something like this?
26:29I said, I will not answer your question because we have our own strategy and tactics.
26:33But I will help you understand what we could possibly do.
26:38I said, you notice that when across the LOC in Kashmir or elsewhere, when there is small
26:47arms fire from the Indian side, what happens?
26:51He said, you do the same.
26:54I said, when there is a mortar shell thrown across, what do you do?
26:58He said, you do the same.
27:01I said, if they fire long range artillery, what happens?
27:05He said, you respond back.
27:08So I said, if they were to launch a standoff weapon, we will do the same.
27:13So we are not going to accept it lying down.
27:18With all our capability, with all our power that we have at our disposal and the capability
27:23at our disposal, we will react to it in the manner that we think is right.
27:30So nobody should get away with this idea that, that, you know, they can do anything
27:37or even they can just to show the public they can do a small little action and Pakistan
27:42will accept it as, you know, that look the other way and let it be bygone.
27:48This time also, one of the theories floating is that they did not hit the target and they
27:54chose that remote area again for the reason that they may have told our common friends
28:01that we will not cause any damage.
28:03It is a non-military preemptive strike.
28:06This is the name that they gave it and they might have impressed upon others that tell
28:13Pakistan not to react and the matter will end over there, you know.
28:19But for obvious reasons, Prime Minister Imran Khan also told them that if you attack, we
28:25will have no option but to respond.
28:28So there was no going back for Pakistan, despite the fact that they may have attempted to do
28:34this.
28:35So Pakistan responded and fortunately, it turned out well for us.
28:41Sir, you were the former Air Chief of Pakistan.
28:44You're also heading a very big think tank.
28:49My question is very important.
28:51A lot of think tanks across Pakistan are working on this subject.
28:57India is about to acquire Rafales.
29:00They're also about to acquire the S-400s, the Russian missile defence system.
29:07After they acquire both of these things, do you think India will be, it will embolden
29:15and if they do, how will Pakistan or how can Pakistan balance the power, balance the power
29:25strategy in the region?
29:28Well, whenever there is a capability gap between two adversaries, the one that has a slight
29:37edge tends to get emboldened.
29:40That is why the anti-missile systems were never allowed between NATO and Warsaw Pact
29:50countries because when you have this idea that I can thwart all their attacks and then
29:59I'll be able to launch one of my own, then it provokes you towards aggression.
30:07So similarly, if India was to feel secure that with the defensive capability and the
30:13offensive capability that they have or they would have, that they will not let Pakistani
30:19armed forces come close, then they would be emboldened to do some things which are irrational,
30:26I would say.
30:28So like I said earlier in one of the other answers that it is sad that they are going
30:37into this capability enhancement because Pakistan will have to follow suit.
30:46And what can happen is that we can, we will have to go to the Chinese for emergency, you
30:55know, strengthening.
30:58You know, they have capabilities.
31:01Some are known, some are not known.
31:02So whatever best we can get to neutralize or reduce the gap between us and the Indian
31:09armed forces or Air Force specifically, we'll do that.
31:14We will not sit idle.
31:16And that is also not to say that there are no options available.
31:19It's just a matter of deciding what capability suits us best and inshallah we will do it.
31:30Sir, I'm not being biased, but I've spoken to many people from different think tanks,
31:36many international journalists, observers.
31:39They actually consider Pakistan to be a militarily, a regional power within Asia.
31:46I mean, I talk to think tanks and they tell me that Pakistan makes its own aircrafts.
31:52Pakistan is about to, you know, make its own naval warships.
31:58Pakistan is also a nuclear power.
32:00I mean, I don't want to sound threatening, but India keeps on talking about teaching
32:06Pakistan a lesson.
32:09Why do they undermine Pakistan's capability when everybody else could see that capability
32:15in Pakistan's military?
32:18You bring up a very good point.
32:21I missed it out in my other questions.
32:26The advantage Pakistan has always enjoyed is that the decision making in the military
32:32domain has been superior in terms of how we re-equip, what procurements we must do.
32:38In India, you have noticed that this plan to acquire 126 fourth generation, fifth generation
32:46aeroplanes, it has been going on for the last 20 years.
32:50They have still not received one, you know, aeroplane of that kind.
32:56The efforts are ongoing.
32:58Similarly, if you look at it, the development of Tejas in India and the JF-17 in Pakistan
33:05again indicates better decision making in Pakistan.
33:09Pakistan decided that it will take a proven engine and build the aeroplane around it and
33:15put the weaponry on that aeroplane.
33:18The Indians in their ambitious program decided that they wanted to build the engine of the
33:25Tejas also themselves.
33:29We need to understand that the engine is even more complicated than an aeroplane.
33:36So it is a very complex exercise.
33:41So they failed in that endeavor with the result that their whole program of Tejas, it was
33:47started much before JF-17, but their aeroplanes are still not operational, whereas Pakistan
33:53has 6, 7, 8 squads operational and they are actually participating in the operations as
33:59we speak.
34:00So Pakistan certainly is part of considerable strength and not only to India, but we have
34:14proven to other people also that way before, about 20 years ago, other air forces like
34:23the French Air Force, the Belgian Air Force and several others who used to fly the Mirages
34:29gave up flying them, you know, because they didn't have the industrial capacity or their
34:37budgets didn't allow to maintain these old aeroplanes.
34:41Pakistan till today is flying the Mirages.
34:44They were scheduled to be phased out in 1995 and today we are in 2019, 24 years hence they
34:53are still flying.
34:55It speaks about the efficiency and the effectiveness of Pakistan Air Force and its personnel that
35:01we are able to do this and that is why the world recognizes that Pakistan is a considerable
35:09power.
35:10Sir, let's conclude our show.
35:13I'd like to ask the last question.
35:15What lessons should Pakistan learn from the latest escalation between India and Pakistan
35:21and some may call it a limited war?
35:23What lessons do we learn?
35:25The number one lesson is that the air force has to be strengthened.
35:36What we saw on 27th February was not a fluke event.
35:44If you go back, fortunately for me, I was at the time in my office, a credit must go
35:54to General Musharraf that he launched in consultation with the three armed forces, Armed Forces
36:01Development Programme 2019.
36:03It was launched in 2004.
36:06We started briefings and analysis etc. in 2003 but in 2004 it took final shape.
36:15Air Force got the bulk of the money out of that allocation because there was a realization
36:22the Air Force capability needed to be enhanced.
36:27But the good thing is that the decisions that we took at that time, it was a corporate decision.
36:35The list of items that we decided that we needed to procure, whether it was Airborne
36:39Early Warning, whether it was area refuelers, whether it was additional F-16s, whether it
36:44was GF-17, surface to air missiles, drones etc.
36:50Every item in that list is in operation with the Pakistan Air Force today.
36:56It speaks of great institutional strength of the force that like elsewhere, when the
37:03regime changes, things don't change.
37:07They pursued the objectives, force goals that had been fixed at that time.
37:12Also, the weaponry that we had, some of the weapons that we used were as old as 25 years.
37:23So the Air Force performed.
37:28The reasons I told you are that the command decisions that were taken were consistent
37:36and unchanging.
37:38The training that was imparted to our combat crew was realistic.
37:43The morale of the pilots especially was high.
37:52And finally, the technical reliability that whatever was supposed to be used, it was used
38:01and it was effective and it performed.
38:04A short while ago, you gave the example of the Indian case where around the time of 26-27
38:13February, two of their aeroplanes collided in the air, two aeroplanes or one was lost
38:19to bird hit, one was lost to a technical fault and two aeroplanes were shot down and
38:27one helicopter was shot down by their own forces.
38:31Within a time span of one week, they had lost 8-9 aeroplanes.
38:37And on our side, mashaAllah, we were okay.
38:41So there is a stark difference in the philosophy, there may be plenty of reasons because India
38:48is now into IT and all, maybe the best guys don't come to the Indian Air Force, it's not
38:54a preferred choice.
38:55In Pakistan, the best guys still come to the armed forces and the motivation that they
39:05get is strong and that is why perhaps we have a slight edge over them.
39:12Thank you so much, sir, for giving us this interview.
39:15It was a pleasure, it was an honor and it was great to have your analysis on this important
39:21event that took place.
39:23This was our face-to-face interview with Pakistan's previous Air Chief, Kaleem Sadat.
39:28We were discussing the topic, Balakot and beyond, Pakistan and India's limited war.
39:34Until the next episode of Tactical Talk, this is Zain-ul-Khan, take care and goodbye.