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00:00Spain, Norway and Ireland have today formally recognised a Palestinian state, those countries
00:06saying it is a step towards a two-state solution to the conflict. They're calling now on other
00:12allies to follow suit.
00:15It's now one of a few countries in the West to officially recognise Palestinian statehood,
00:20a landmark move Spain says is essential.
00:23The recognition of the state of Palestine is not only a matter of historical justice
00:27with the legitimate aspirations of the Palestine people, but it is also an imperative need
00:33to achieve peace.
00:35It comes nearly a week after Spain, Norway and Ireland decided to all recognise an independent
00:40Palestine, a step that triggered uproar from Israel's far-right government, with Prime
00:45Minister Benjamin Netanyahu describing the move as a reward to Hamas after several months
00:49of war.
00:50The Jewish state also recalled its ambassadors from the three countries and blocked Spain
00:55from providing consular services to Palestinians in the West Bank. Israel is accusing Madrid
01:00of helping Hamas, an allegation it fervently denies.
01:04The recognition of Palestine is not against anyone, least of all Israel. This decision
01:09reflects our absolute rejection of Hamas, a terrorist organisation who is against the
01:14two-state solution.
01:17Spain now joins more than 140 countries to recognise Palestine, including most of the
01:22global south, Russia, China and India. While no major Western powers has done so, Madrid
01:28wants to encourage neighbouring countries to follow suit. Britain, Australia and EU
01:33members Malta and Slovenia have all signalled that they could join, while France says it's
01:38not the right time to make the move.
01:41Palestinian officials see recognition as a crucial step towards a long-term resolution
01:46to the conflict with Israel. They also believe it will bolster a future administration for
01:50the occupied West Bank and Gaza.
01:53Well, to discuss the recognition by Norway, Spain and Ireland today of a Palestinian state,
01:59I'm very pleased to welcome to the programme Majid Bamiyeh. He's the Deputy Palestinian
02:04Ambassador to the United Nations. He joins us live now from New York. Hello to you, sir.
02:10First of all, just briefly tell us your reaction to this news today.
02:16It's an important news. The Palestinian people's existence has been denied by Israel. The Palestinian
02:22statehood has been now undermined by Israel for very long. And that's the proper response
02:28to say, if you want a two-state solution, there's two states. There's Israel and there's
02:32also Palestine. And Palestine needs to be recognised. The Palestinian people have a
02:36right to self-determination. They have a right to freedom. And nobody has a veto over this
02:41right. And we hope other countries will emulate the move by Spain, Norway and Ireland. Now,
02:47147 states around the world have recognised the state of Palestine.
02:51Well, as you say, this is, in the eyes of Spain, Ireland and Norway, a step towards
02:57the two-state solution. That is something that your government, the Palestinian Authority
03:01government supports. That's a vision that you have. So my question for you is, what
03:07steps now are you taking towards securing a two-state solution? To give you a tangible
03:12example, will the Palestinian Authority work in some way to govern Gaza once this war is
03:21over?
03:23We want to govern the occupied Palestinian territory to see it as a state freed from
03:29Israeli occupation. That, of course, includes the Gaza Strip. But then the priority is a
03:33ceasefire. And the entire world is calling for an immediate ceasefire. And what we're
03:37seeing is an Israeli military offensive against the order by the International Court of Justice,
03:43despite the arrest warrant request by the prosecutor of the ICC, despite the demands
03:50of the Security Council and the General Assembly. All of these are enemies of Israel now. All
03:54of these are al-Qaeda Semites. All of these are saying you cannot commit these crimes.
03:59You cannot take an entire civilian population as a target. You cannot destroy the entirety
04:04of the Gaza Strip. So Israel is doing everything to not make it possible for us to have an
04:09independent, viable Palestinian state and to destroy that perspective and to force Palestinians
04:15into displacement or destruction. And that needs to stop.
04:19You were very clear there at the beginning of your answer that for you, the vision is
04:23the Palestinian Authority would at some point govern both the West Bank and Gaza. But look,
04:29how much democratic legitimacy does the Palestinian Authority really have? I mean, long before
04:34this current war, Palestinians have been waiting for elections. There haven't been elections
04:38in the West Bank for what, more than 15 years. Mahmoud Abbas, your leader, profoundly unpopular
04:43among Palestinians. So do Palestinians really want you to govern the Gaza Strip once this
04:50all comes to an end?
04:53There should be Palestinian elections and Israel should allow them to happen also in
04:57Jerusalem. And then we will see what the people want. But that's why you need to provide people
05:02with a political horizon. Of course, it is not popular to stand for peace when Israel
05:07is committing massacres against your people. Of course, when we speak of the two-state
05:12solution, people look, you just show on the ground, people look around them and say how
05:17this Palestinian state now recognized by the entire world will become seriously independent
05:22given the Israeli policies. And we need to provide the response. And part of that response
05:26is to hold Israel accountable, to end its impunity. So it changes its policies. And
05:30then we will see what the Palestinian people believe in and what they want. And they should
05:35be able to express that. That's what the right to self-determination means, to be able to
05:39decide for themselves.
05:40Right. And as you've spelled out, as I've said as well, you're obviously no supporter
05:44of Hamas. You represent the rival government, the Palestinian Authority, based in Ramallah.
05:49But I'm interested in what you make of this argument that you and I are only having this
05:53conversation today about three European countries recognizing a Palestinian state because of
05:59Hamas, because of what Hamas has done, because of the attacks on October 7th that triggered
06:05this current war in Gaza. They have, whatever you think of Hamas, propelled the Palestinian
06:11issue on the world stage in a way that the PA has failed to do for years.
06:19Our role is to represent the rights of the Palestinian people. And we warned for years
06:23that if there's no political horizon, no answer, while Israeli colonization is advancing, while
06:30the siege of Gaza is advancing, there was a high risk that we would see these kind of
06:35explosion and situations happening. And unfortunately, you are right. The international community
06:40did not react. But I think what we're seeing today is not in response to the 7th of October.
06:45It is in response to what Israel has done since the 7th of October. It's what Israel
06:50has done in destroying the entirety of the Gaza Strip, in becoming a government for the
06:56settlers and benefiting the settlers, but also in response to our commitment to peace.
07:02And I think the announcements were very clear. They are in support of that Palestinian state
07:06committed to peace. But that requires Palestinian freedom.
07:12One last question for you. I know you're a French speaker. You appear often on our
07:16sister French channel, France 24 in French. And France has said, look, now is not the
07:23right time, in their view, to recognize a Palestinian state. France, though, has called
07:27for a ceasefire. Where do you think Paris stands today on the Palestine question?
07:34To be fair to the position of France, France voted in favor of our membership to the United
07:40Nations. And that was a critical vote in the Security Council and then again in the
07:44General Assembly. So we will see where France will stand on these issues. We hope that it
07:49will recognize the state of Palestine that would be in coherence with the historical
07:54position of France. And we call on all countries that haven't done so to recognize the state
07:58of Palestine immediately, to all states to stop shipping weapons to Israel, to promote
08:04peace, to take action against the colonization, and to end the situation in the Gaza Strip,
08:10to end this assault against the Palestinian people.
08:14Majid Bamieh, the Deputy Palestinian Ambassador to the United Nations, live in New York. Thanks
08:19very much.