On this episode of Booky Nicola chats to Katie Fforde who writes compelling women's fiction from her base in the Costwolds. Best-selling is an understatement for Katie, who is never happier than with a notepad in her hand crafting a story with a happy ending. Katie is an author who understands the years of rejection many writers face and is proof it is possible to find your way even if life gets in the way.
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00:00 [Music]
00:06 Welcome to Bookie, your new friendly podcast for readers and writers.
00:10 I'm Nicola Adam, a journalist, writer and presenter for Publisher National World,
00:14 which bring you this pod today. National World runs many local news brands across the UK,
00:19 from the Sheffield Star to the Blackpool Gazette to the Scotsman. In each episode of Bookie,
00:25 I'm asking authors to share the ups and downs of their journeys to publication, and also a few
00:30 tips for budding authors along the way. Then I'll also talk book news and opportunities for writers,
00:35 so make sure to listen to the end for that. This is Bookie. Get a cuppa or a sneaky G&T
00:43 and cosy up in your Bookie Nook. This week, our guest is Katie Ford, who writes compelling
00:48 women's fiction from her base in England's beautiful Cotswolds. Best-selling is an
00:53 understatement for Katie, who is never happier than with a notepad in her hand, crafting a story
00:59 with a happy ending. Katie is an author who understands the years of rejection many writers
01:05 face, and is proof that it is possible to find your way, even if life gets in the way.
01:09 As a result, she helps others and is a fantastic advocate for those starting out in their careers.
01:15 Katie's new book, Island in the Sun, is out now. Introducing Katie Ford.
01:21 Thank you so much for coming on to the podcast, Katie.
01:24 Well, thank you so much for inviting me. I love podcasts. I listen to so many of them.
01:30 It's really exciting to be on one.
01:32 I think that if anybody is out there listening, you should definitely get a nice cup of tea for
01:36 this one, or get in the rhythm of your steps if you're doing your daily steps while listening
01:41 to your podcast, because I think this should be a nice chat. Now, Katie, we have interacted before,
01:48 and I've possibly slightly stalked you into coming on this podcast, so thank you so much.
01:53 I do appreciate this. And I think that with you, I've read so many of your books over the years,
02:01 and I think you're one of those authors that, if you've ever been to a little B&B or to a little
02:10 rented cottage somewhere in the middle of nowhere with a bookshelf, and there's all those books that
02:16 people have left behind, and there's always at least two Katie Ford books on there. So it's
02:22 possibly not good for your bank balance if everyone's rereading the one book. However,
02:26 it is. It must be an amazing feeling to know all of those people are out there reading your work.
02:31 Well, it's very exciting, and I don't mind, to be honest. I don't mind if people get my books from
02:37 charity shops or whatever, because I've had people who became long-term fans because they saw me in
02:44 a charity shop for a small amount of money and bought it. I think if it's advertising, and I
02:49 don't mind. I'd just rather people read my books and didn't read them, even if they didn't pay for
02:54 them. I don't really care. I've got one little question that's really from me before we get into
02:59 it. And Katie Ford, now that's an unusual spelling with two Fs. Did you acquire that name, or is that
03:05 an author name? No, it's a married name. Is it? I married a Mr. Ford, and there's also his cousin,
03:13 who's my cousin by marriage, Jasper Ford, who is also a writer. And we both share the name,
03:20 and we keep being asked if we're married and things, and we're not actually. He's much younger
03:25 than me. But yeah, so it's originally Irish, really. And we all know that they're mad, she
03:34 said, because it's not her name. I mean, it is my name now. I've had it for 51 years. But it's still,
03:42 it's not my sort of family name. But yeah, no, it's a real name.
03:46 It stands out, definitely.
03:48 Well, it's quite a good name. If I'd known what a good name it was, I'd have been
03:53 more enthusiastic about it, because you just have the name you've got. And then we say,
03:58 oh, that's a really good name. And I think, oh, yeah, well, it is, because it's not too long,
04:01 but it's a bit different. Yeah, I think so. I think so, definitely.
04:04 Another thing that I think that I think about you, I think about, when I think about you,
04:09 I think about notepads. Because I know that you are, like me, a massive lover of notepads and
04:17 stationary and really, really nice pens. I know you've even got your own stationary range,
04:22 haven't you? I think about you.
04:24 Well, a range, exactly. It's a few. But yes, no, I love a notebook. I really do. My favourite thing
04:32 is to be in a strange place and not have a notepad, which means I have to go into a shop
04:37 and buy one. Because if I'm at home, I have so many. I don't really need to buy a new one. But
04:43 it's just lovely having that little treat of going to a lovely shop. It might be a bookshop or
04:48 something. They sell a few really beautiful notebooks. And I love that.
04:52 I mean, if you're anything like me, you've got a shelf of them that you don't actually
04:55 want to write in, because they're too nice. It's quite bad. It's an addiction.
05:00 What can you write in this that's worthy of the notebook?
05:05 Exactly. Right. So I thought what I'd do is just roll it all back a little bit. If you could start
05:11 right from the beginning and tell us how it all began for you. Because you didn't start writing
05:16 when you were sort of a whippersnapper at 20, did you? It kind of came later.
05:20 No, it did come later. I had obviously muttered a lot about writing before I started. And one
05:28 year my mother gave me a writing kit for Christmas, because she wasn't someone-- she'd written herself
05:35 and against quite difficult odds, you know, no time, very long working hours, you know,
05:40 not much, all that stuff. And I actually had-- when she gave me this writing kit, I actually
05:46 had three children. My daughter was only two, my youngest. But she gave me this kit. And it's such
05:53 a different kit as it would be nowadays, because it had-- well, it had a dictionary. It had a
05:58 thesaurus. It had a ream of paper when we used typewriters, because that's how long ago it was.
06:04 And a typex when it was paper. It subsequently became a fluid more recently. But then it was
06:13 paper. And if you made a mistake, you put it behind and you type the character that you type
06:17 wrong. And it would sort of white out the wrong character. And then you could type your proper
06:22 character over it. And, you know, all sorts of things like that. And it was a sort of put up
06:28 or shut up present. So for once in my life, and I have to say it's only been once, I made a New
06:36 Year's resolution that I actually stuck to, which was to start writing a book that year. I've never
06:42 stuck to one since, which does make me feel quite guilty, because if I had, I'd be so thin,
06:49 I'd be so fit, I'd buy a house, I'd be so tidy. All those things that you usually have as
06:55 resolutions. And I don't usually stick to them. But this one I did. And I started writing a novel.
07:00 And once I started, I loved it so much, because I used to wander around my area. And we still live
07:08 in the same house. But I had a pushchair and a toddler and a dog. And I'd walk the dog and I'd
07:13 have the toddler in the pushchair. And I think, why aren't you happy, Katie? You've got a lovely
07:18 house, you live in a lovely area, a lovely husband, lovely children, really lovely dog.
07:24 Why aren't you blissfully happy? And I didn't really know why I wasn't blissfully happy. And
07:31 I couldn't have told you. But when I started writing, everything fell into place. And I
07:36 realised this is what I was missing, this creative side, this imaginative life. And once I started
07:43 writing, I realised just how much I loved it. And to begin with, I only wrote when my husband
07:48 was home from the sea, because he used to go to sea. But he had quite a lot of time at home,
07:53 so it wasn't too bad. But I could only manage it when he was home, because I had to get to play
07:59 group. She wouldn't stay at play group without me. And I would have had about 10 minutes to write if
08:04 she had. It was really quite a struggle. Anyway, he did the play group duty. And I started by
08:10 writing an hour a day. I thought, I'll let myself have that. And I did all my other things. And I
08:15 would sit down at my old fashioned office typewriter and type. And it was just so blissful
08:22 that I used to stretch the hour and I used to get up really, really early. And I would steal the
08:28 time. And I did things like gave up ironing. And I gave up all sorts of other things which
08:34 I possibly should have been doing in order to have time to write. And it was wonderful.
08:40 However, it took me an awfully long time to get published. It took about eight years before I had
08:48 a publisher, partly because I was trying to write Mills and Boone novels, which are only 50,000
08:52 words long. I, in my complete ignorance, thought they were easier to write than a sort of 100,000
08:59 words, which is what I do now. I just didn't know. But I learned so much from all those failures,
09:05 trying to get it right, trying to do what people told me to do, trying to keep the pages turning
09:10 and all those things, that when I finally was published, I could do it. I had learned to ride
09:18 the bicycle. I do think sometimes writers who get it right first time, they don't know what they've
09:24 done. They've been terribly clever, but they haven't really learned anything because they
09:29 haven't had all that struggle. And people saying, look, this needs to change, that needs to change,
09:35 you need to do this. But I'd had a lot of that, even though I'd had it for writing very short
09:41 fiction like Mills and Boone's. I'd had lots and lots of feedback over the years, which I'm very,
09:46 very grateful to. And I sort of felt it was my apprenticeship. And so I think I was ready to
09:51 start on my real writing career once I'd done that. And I never managed to get a Mills and
09:58 Boone novel published. People used to say things, oh, Katie, you're far too good to write Mills and
10:04 Boone. Actually, they are just very, very difficult and people don't realize how skilled they are.
10:11 Anyway, I wasn't quite skilled enough. But once I was sort of allowed to write something longer,
10:19 I could have more characters, I could have description. My heroine could have a mother
10:24 who she was in contact with and had telephone conversations with. It was sort of wonderful,
10:30 but it was also that coming out of the convent feeling, oh, wonderful freedom, oh, terrifying
10:37 freedom. Because with the Mills and Boone, I knew exactly what the structure was, where I had to be,
10:42 when, you know, chapter eight is hell in a bucket. Well, chapter three, you have to have it all set
10:46 up. Chapter eight is hell in a bucket. Chapter 10, all resolved. I had no idea what this new
10:52 structure was because it was all new to me and I had to sort of start learning again.
10:58 But the first novel I wrote was published eventually. But when I first went to see my
11:06 publishers, I had a wonderful agent who was terribly kind and she used to send it back to
11:12 me if it wasn't right. She'd either say, "Very good, carry on," or, "No, redo," or, "Add another
11:18 chapter," or whatever. And I would do what she said. And then eventually we had a meeting with
11:23 a publisher and I was terrified because not only, I hadn't had a job for years and years because
11:34 we'd run our own business when we first married and then I'd lived in Wales for three years.
11:38 And then when I did get a job, I worked in a whole food cafe, which isn't exactly a career,
11:45 at least it really wasn't. Although I was, I have to say to my own credit, but I met all these
11:51 people who not only had proper jobs, they had careers. But I met all these people who not only
12:08 had proper jobs, they had careers. And I was just felt so nervous about it. And Susan Watt,
12:16 who is an amazing editor of her time, she was wonderful and very famous. She said, "Well,
12:21 Katie, we feel we all know you because we've read your book. Tell me, what's the plot?"
12:27 And my mind went blank. I mean, I not only didn't know what the plot of my novel was,
12:32 I didn't know what any plot was. In fact, I'm not sure I did know what a plot was because for
12:38 Mills and Boones, the only plot is keeping your hero and heroine apart for 50,000 words. And if
12:46 you're writing something that isn't that short, concise genre, you have to have more and you have
12:55 to have a skeleton to hang it all on. And my book didn't have a skeleton and I had to put the
13:01 skeleton in afterwards. And as I said, when I used to do talks at the time, that it was like putting,
13:08 if your house hasn't got foundations and you suddenly have to use acro props and get JCBs,
13:14 not JCBs, RSJs and put them up and hold the walls up and put the plot in afterwards.
13:20 It's not the right way round. I learnt a lot from that first book.
13:26 I think it's interesting what you say about not knowing, having that sort of,
13:33 it's like you were at novelist university almost, like learning the ropes, but it's sort of via a
13:38 process of constant rejection and like, no, it's not good enough. And just being ignored almost,
13:44 isn't it? And I think there's an awful lot of writers go through that or are going through that.
13:49 And it is interesting to hear that you are learning it. You can't,
13:56 I hadn't really thought about that. Somebody who's just written a book and it's just brilliant.
14:00 And then they get a two book deal and they're like, oh, what do I do now? Sort of thing.
14:05 Yeah. It can be very terrifying. In fact, the second book is terrifying,
14:10 even if you think you do know a bit more than what you're doing now. But the first, the most,
14:15 the final exam of the writers' university is that first professional edit. That's when you
14:23 learn so much. I'd learnt a lot from the Muggles and Boons, but I learnt more from that first
14:28 professional edit. And then I wrote the second novel, which for some peculiar reason, I don't
14:33 know why no one stopped me. I think they liked the idea. But instead of having one protagonist,
14:38 I had three. So they all had three different stories. It was so hard to write. And the
14:44 editing of that was really, really difficult. But again, I learnt so much from that.
14:49 But as long as you do learn from everything bad that happens to you, as well as, to be honest,
14:55 I don't think you learn so much from the good things. People say, darling, it's marvellous.
14:59 But you're not learning anything from that. What you need is, darling, your character is completely
15:05 unbelievable and wet and, you know, there's no plot. That's what you learn from. And so if you're
15:12 writing, if you're trying to write or trying to get published, you need to cherish the bad
15:18 criticisms. Because although they're very hurtful, and you might have to allow yourself a bit of time
15:24 to get over them, that's the gold stuff, really. And that's what you'll learn from and develop and
15:30 become a properly published writer, I feel. I do think that a lot of people are, you know,
15:36 getting rejection and things like that, but not necessarily having that constructive advice these
15:42 days, because there's so many people trying to do it. Unless they've kind of shelled out for an
15:49 expensive course, or, you know, they're just trying to do it in lockdown, you know, everybody
15:54 was writing a book, and then all the agents were like drowning in manuscripts from people coming
16:00 forward and saying, oh, I've written this. And like, they're just getting blank rejections. And
16:04 that's very hard, isn't it? They're not necessarily learning in the way that you learned.
16:09 Well, I do feel very, very privileged. And even Mills and Boone, although, I mean,
16:14 some of my rejections from there were very good rejections. They always wrote to me,
16:20 they always told me things that they thought would make my work better. I never had a standard slip,
16:25 which I feel very grateful for. And so I always did have that feedback. But you're quite right.
16:31 I mean, if you're not getting any feedback, and you don't know where you are, you're no further
16:36 forward, it is very, very depressing. And that's when it would be good idea to have a discover a
16:42 group where you could share your experiences and share your work. I mean, as long as it's the right
16:48 group, that's the tricky thing. People who actually know what they're talking about,
16:53 and can recognise where things aren't working and tell you in a constructive way. I mean,
16:58 you can do it in that sort of mutual way. It's like co-counselling, you know, it's co-editing,
17:05 whatever. I mean, there are ways to get around that. But you do need that because otherwise,
17:10 you just you could say, well, obviously, it wasn't brilliant, because no one's bought it. But
17:16 you know, what was what, where did I go wrong? So you Yeah, as you say, and some of those courses
17:22 are very, very expensive. What do you think over your sort of years is how long have you been
17:27 writing now? Well, I keep saying 30 years. And I think it's about 30 years. But on the other hand,
17:35 my first book was published in 1995. So in theory, it's not 30 years yet. But it's about 30 books.
17:42 Because the first book took so long to come out, I'd actually written the second book.
17:48 And it came out the same year as the first book. So it's a bit compressed. So nearly,
17:52 let's say nearly 30 years. And it feels it feels like nearly 30 years.
17:57 So in those almost three decades, what's been the sort of highest high and what's been the lowest
18:02 low in your sort of writing career? Well, I think when you realise that somebody who's not your
18:12 family has read your book and enjoyed it, that's a real high, because you've managed to put something
18:19 on the page, take it out of your head, put it on the page, and give it to someone else. That's a
18:25 high. And as for the lows, well, I think the lows come when you can't think what to write,
18:32 or you just feel it's all rubbish. And which actually happens to everyone all the time. I mean,
18:37 I know a lot of published writers, and I don't know any of them that don't go through the days
18:42 when they just think this is all such a pile of rubbish. I used to say to my agent every time I
18:47 delivered a book, I said, Oh, honestly, this is such a pile of poo. I don't know what you're
18:51 going to do with it. And she was quite proper. And she'd say, I think we've heard that before,
18:55 Katie. And I say, no, no, this time it really is really absolutely hopeless. And I did genuinely
19:02 believe that it was rubbish. And I still, I mean, experience tells me that my books must be sort of
19:08 all right, because they're still letting me publish them. But I still really think, I think
19:15 because it's never as good as it would have been in your head. There's some process that happens
19:20 between your head and your hands that makes it go off a bit. It's not quite as good as it was in
19:27 your imagination. Or you just feel you haven't quite conveyed it or I don't know. It's all a
19:33 struggle. But I wouldn't do anything else. And I wouldn't not do it. So it can't be that bad.
19:38 So tell us like when that first book came out, or tell us first of all, tell us about your very
19:46 first novel that got published. Tell us about that. My very first novel was called Living
19:52 Dangerously. And it was, I was so lucky. And people say, oh, you make your own luck. And you
19:59 know, the harder you work, the luckier you get, which I find very, very annoying. Because we all
20:03 know people, I certainly know people who've written amazing books and worked incredibly hard
20:08 and haven't had the luck. I did have the luck. I was selected for a Smith's promotion called
20:14 Fresh Talent. And at that time, it was sort of like the Richard and Judy of its time.
20:19 They, your book, your work would be reviewed in every small newspaper all over the world,
20:27 all over the country, really, as well as the big newspapers. It had, and they received
20:33 enormous amount of attention. Smith's was the most important bookseller at the time.
20:39 And to have that thing, that promotion made a huge difference. So that was massively lucky.
20:47 But I felt quite torn when I was first published. I think I'd been waiting for it for so long,
20:54 but I couldn't quite believe it. And I don't really think I deserved it. And then I was
21:00 embarrassed that I thought people will read my books. And I thought, oh, I wish I thought of
21:05 a pseudonym. And I'd always thought I would think of a pseudonym, but I hadn't get around to it.
21:09 And I thought, well, I don't need to do it now. I'll do it later. And then, of course,
21:13 I hadn't done it. And then everyone said, oh, it's such a good writing name. I just said, OK,
21:17 I'll stick with it. And I did feel that I was going to be horribly exposed.
21:21 So I didn't feel quite-- the theory is everyone, you just-- your feet don't touch the floor and
21:28 you feel on cloud nine. I didn't really feel that. It took me a long time to feel comfortable.
21:32 So I just want to-- I've got a little thing that we do at the end of each podcast where we ask a
21:38 few kind of more quickfire questions, if that's OK.
21:41 - OK. - Direct towards you. So first of all,
21:45 what's the most read book on your shelf? - The most read book on my shelf is probably
21:52 by Georgette Heyer. And it might be The Grand Sophie.
21:56 - OK. But what is the book that you wish that you wrote?
22:00 - The Grand Sophie by Georgette Heyer. No, I would just love to see her characterisation.
22:05 She's so brilliant. - Where's your favourite spot for
22:08 doing a spot of reading? - Probably in bed because that's where,
22:12 you know, you can make yourself comfortable. But what I really love to do is in the morning.
22:17 That is such a luxury because you're comfortable and you're not tired.
22:22 But you really should be getting up and actually writing your book.
22:25 - I've thought about that. Yeah, you don't really read in the morning, actually. It's not something
22:30 most people do, is it? What is your top tip for an aspiring writer?
22:37 - Well, I would have to sort of squash in a few. Is read a lot. Learn from what you read
22:44 and persevere. Do not... You can be cast down for a short time, but do not waste time being cast down
22:53 when you should be writing your next book. Just keep at it, persevere and
23:00 just make sure that when you do read, you just think, well, why is this working? Why is this good?
23:05 Why isn't this good? What's... Is it this character that's not right? Is it when they're brought into
23:11 the book? Is it too much description? Just think about what you're reading and apply it to your
23:17 writing. - Wise words, I think.
23:19 I mean, you've probably covered it in that, but what is sort of one thing you wish you'd known
23:24 before you even started writing? - I think I wished I'd known that I'd still
23:30 be published in my 70s, because that would have given me a lot of hope.
23:34 - Well, thank you very much, Katie. I can't believe that time has gone so quickly, but it has. So
23:40 thank you very much to Katie Ford for coming on the Bookie Podcast. I think that's been
23:45 really fascinating. I also think we could have done an hour quite easily there.
23:49 So thank you so much for that. Much appreciated.
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