The Ukrainian Deputy Prime Minister has told DW she's expecting an announcement at NATO's Washington summit in July about how the alliance could help secure her country's airspace. Olha Stefanishyna was speaking as the military bloc's Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg visited Kyiv for a second time since the invasion by Russia in 2022.
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00:00Thanks so much, Mr. Tiffany. Thank you for talking to Deutsche Welle.
00:05We're speaking on the day that the NATO Secretary General has been visiting your country, Kyiv.
00:12And it was striking to hear him say to NATO countries that their delays in delivering weapons and ammunition to Ukraine
00:23has resulted in a scenario where we have the Russian armed forces making ground.
00:28Is Ukraine going to lose this war if Western allies, if your allies, do not step up in the way of more commitments
00:40but also making good on the commitments that they've already made?
00:45Well, indeed, this is the second visit of Secretary General to Kyiv throughout the war.
00:53And it's very important to see that both President Zelensky and Secretary General have an open-air press conference
01:03just under the open skies. It is a very symbolic element, giving us the hope that now,
01:10when the decision of the U.S. Congress has been taken, the massive disruptions in the delivery that we had
01:16over the last six months, which affected the massive causes of attacks to civilian infrastructure,
01:25simply because of shortages in the ammunition and inability to make all the elements of air defense operational
01:33because of the lack of the missiles. This is something that we have overpassed.
01:38The new contributions are on their way, so at least we can speak about the security of the critical infrastructure
01:49and security of the cities, which gives us more time to concentrate on the front line.
01:54In fact, Secretary General Stoltenberg is very well briefed on the security situation.
02:00Just last week, he, upon the request of Zelensky, made a meeting of the defense ministers,
02:07and there is a number of decisions which are already on the table on urgent measures on air defense.
02:14The follow-up has been today in Kyiv, and it's very clear that Ukraine will always find a way to fight for itself,
02:24but I think it's not something that should care less that the whole democratic world could lose,
02:32and I think that there are plenty of decisions on the table, both at the EU platform, but also at NATO,
02:37which could really make Ukrainian people feel more secure, but the front line is much more stabilized.
02:44You talked about the U.S. support package, which was substantial, but it was also half a year late and could be the last.
02:55Have you factored in that this could be the last support package coming from the United States,
03:00in light of the fact that there is an election in November that completely changes the game?
03:06Well, for us, the clarity and delivering on its commitment is important,
03:13because the decision that we have now on the military support for Ukraine voted by Congress,
03:20this has been part of the commitments agreed at the Rammstein format among more than 50 partners more than half a year ago.
03:31It was very important that you cannot substitute this disruption in provision of military support,
03:38because these are not the finances, not the loans you can get somewhere, it's the physical military equipment,
03:44which is only where it has been committed for.
03:48So it's not only Ukraine, but all the allies were not ready for this kind of scenario,
03:53so it's important to have this decision for this year,
03:56but for the next year, of course, we will be ready for any kind of scenarios,
04:00and we are working hard with the European Union to build a stronger European defense pillar.
04:06We are working hard on advancing on implementation of the European defense industrial strategy,
04:11but also mobilizing additional resources to ensure that our capability as European institutions in defense is stronger.
04:23We are also working on a number of decisions for the Washington summit of NATO,
04:28in particular when it comes to measures which NATO as an alliance could take to secure airspace,
04:37and there are a number of discussions on the table, and I'm sure that we will be able to see some of them already in Washington.
04:43So for us, it was really important to have the decision for this year.
04:47It was in fact vital, and for the next year, we still have time to advance and to learn our lessons
04:52and to make sure that we have a backup scenario, even for the strongest commitments.
04:58At the same time, different to what we had right now,
05:03it's already now where we have a significant amount of bilateral security commitments with France,
05:08with Germany, most ambitious with the Great Britain,
05:13and this has been recently now that Ukraine and U.S. will have a bilateral security commitment.
05:19So from the landscape point of view, the situation will totally be different next year.
05:24The new mobilization legislation has received a lot of backlash, especially within Ukraine, for a number of reasons.
05:34One being that there is no scope for demobilization for people who've been on the front lines for a significant period of time,
05:43but also the situation around men outside of Ukraine having restricted access to consular services because of the new legislation.
05:53In addition to concerns raised by human rights groups, some experts say it's not going to be very effective.
06:02Is this piece of legislation going to help you from where you stand, from where your government stands?
06:09Is it going to help increase the number of troops that are required because this is anywhere from 300,000 to half a million?
06:17Well, it's really interesting to hear such an in-depth understanding and knowledge about so many nuances.
06:25So let's start from the point that it's not a new legislation.
06:29So the legislative base for demobilization and the serving in armed forces has been there even before these amendments have been adopted.
06:37So the procedure was there, including the elements of the demobilization.
06:41There was an idea because basically we have a full-scale war.
06:45This is a massive military engagement, and it requires some procedures need to be improved, including the demobilization procedures,
06:52because we're talking about a huge amount of people which need not only to leave the front line, but somebody who will substitute them.
07:01So this needs to be discussed in more detail.
07:05At the same time, the president has the power, and he made some decisions to demobilize some troops.
07:12So it doesn't restrict us from making this decision.
07:15Secondly, we need to make an audit of the potential for demobilization.
07:19Thus, we need to make sure that we have the proper data of those men who are abroad,
07:24but also those men who are among the internally displaced persons,
07:28because this is almost 5 million people within the country of all people who have been internally displaced.
07:34So there's been a massive shuffle.
07:36So we need the data to be collected.
07:38So we have undertaken some temporary measures allowing us to have this audit through provision of the consular service
07:45and registration of male Ukrainians so that we could have the data.
07:50It doesn't necessarily immediately affect demobilization to the front line.
07:54It's just the collecting of the data.
07:57And it's really not very good to make any assessments in that regard, because the war is in Ukraine.
08:08The shelling is there, and the best of our people are dying and fighting on the front line.
08:14And there's no good solution when it comes to serving in the armed forces in a country of war.
08:22But the solution should be done, because we have to survive and we have to fight.
08:25But rest assured that we will do our best to make it with the understanding that the human life is on the first turn.
08:34I have two more questions for you.
08:36The first one being, we are in Europe, weeks away from a parliamentary election here
08:43that could see far-right parties make significant gains in terms of their representation in the parliament.
08:52We know that a lot of these parties are opposed to European enlargement.
08:59They have also been critical of increased support to Ukraine.
09:07What are your feelings around that?
09:10Well, of course, I wouldn't make a general line in this negative connotation
09:15about the different radical or far-right groups in the parliament.
09:20It's already a reality that there are tendencies like that.
09:23But at the same time, you cannot equalize everybody,
09:27because we have different situations with the different political groups in the different countries.
09:32And mostly we see that even those political alliances which were critical, we always find the ground to work.
09:41I'm speaking about the Slovak-Ukrainian relations.
09:45I'm speaking on the relations with the new Dutch parliament.
09:51So, we have been able to find the common ground on most of the issues.
09:57So, we are looking and following the elections closely,
10:02but I don't think that this is a momentum where these kind of simple solutions could be taken.
10:09In fact, it's about the future of Europe.
10:12And it's not only Ukraine which is at stake as a country,
10:16it's the capability of European Union to defend itself,
10:19because the war is at NATO borders, at EU borders.
10:23And I don't think that something which is used as the pre-electoral rhetoric
10:28could really be materialized in a policy,
10:31because it's about the security policy of every country.
10:35My final question, Deputy Prime Minister.
10:37Of course, your forte is Europe,
10:40but we know that President Zelensky at least is expected to be visiting South Africa at some point in this year,
10:48presumably to secure political support outside of places like Brussels where we are today.
10:57Could you talk to us about how important that is for Ukraine,
11:01to be able to win over hearts and minds in other parts of the world,
11:06in the Global South, for example, parts of the world that have been perhaps more reluctant than here in the West?
11:13I think it's very important that we encircle the discussion about 10-point peace formula of President Zelensky,
11:21because it's not only a peace formula for Ukraine,
11:23it's the real EU security pact, global security pact,
11:27which gives a lot of answers and a new potential to ensure the security of every part of the world,
11:35wherever the tension could come.
11:37It's about the nuclear security, it's about the security and the protection of the human rights,
11:42it's about prisoners of war, it's about the justice and accountability for the crimes committed.
11:50So we're looking forward for having the peace formula summit in Switzerland,
11:55and it will only be successful if all parts of the world would find a common background on that,
12:02and the background of it is the respect to the UN Charter.
12:07So I think that the nearest commitment and the nearest ability to have this global discussion
12:14will be in Switzerland already in June this year.
12:18Please, allow me, indulge me one more.
12:20We have an audience in parts of the world where the narrative around NATO, this war, Russia, is not balanced.
12:28Could you tell people who are under the impression, who receive this propaganda that NATO aggravated this war,
12:35what is your appeal to these people in terms of what they should understand
12:39about what has happened to your country and the price that you are paying?
12:43It's a very interesting question when we're talking about the role of NATO
12:49in current security architecture in European Union.
12:55Basically, I'm sure that NATO could have prevented this war by making a strong commitment to Ukraine,
13:02making Ukraine a member of the alliance, thus granting the security of Ukraine
13:07and also being in a direct dialogue even with the Russian Federation.
13:12But at this point of time, it is a war of aggression of Russian Federation against Ukraine,
13:18and NATO has not played a role here, and it's a bilateral commitment of the allies
13:25to support Ukraine's ability to restore its independence.
13:30So, I would say that NATO has never been playing a role in this aggression,
13:35but it might play a role in ending this war and making European continent secure again,
13:44both by putting security guarantees for Ukraine, but also for Russia at some point.
13:50Thank you very much, ma'am.