The US musician returns with ‘All Born Screaming’, a hard-hitting new album that acts as a musical reset for Annie Clark.
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00:00 When I think about music that I love,
00:04 I don't give a shit what the artist was thinking.
00:06 [laughs]
00:07 I don't give a shit, you know,
00:09 that it was about their kid or it was about a breakup or that.
00:12 I don't fucking care.
00:14 I care what it means to me.
00:16 [music]
00:22 Hi, I'm Nick and I'm joined by Sim Brinson
00:25 for the latest in enemies in conversation series.
00:27 How's it going today?
00:28 It's really solid.
00:29 We just, you didn't, the camera missed it,
00:31 but we were just having a riveting conversation about Prett,
00:35 which is my favorite.
00:37 And you're saying it's better in the UK than in the US?
00:40 A hundred percent.
00:41 It's so much better here.
00:42 What's better about it here?
00:44 I don't know.
00:45 Well, one, I mean the ubiquity of it here.
00:47 Yeah.
00:48 I just feel like anytime I've had Prett in New York,
00:51 it's like a little bit dicey.
00:53 Like you just feel like it's,
00:55 like it's not as fresh as it could be.
00:58 Anyway.
00:59 Whereas in the UK, always super fresh.
01:02 Best porridge ever.
01:03 [laughs]
01:04 Well, yeah, it's fun to talk about Prett,
01:07 but I should ask about the new album.
01:09 Oh, great. Okay.
01:10 All Born Screaming.
01:11 I was wondering, what was the starting point for the album?
01:15 Was it a particular mood or a lyric, a musical idea?
01:19 Like where did it all stem from?
01:21 I think the genesis of the album was more or less like
01:26 me playing around with modular synthesizers
01:29 and drum machines in my studio alone.
01:32 Like, you know, it'd be eight in the morning
01:35 and I'd just like a little coffee, little microdose,
01:38 and then just go in and turn on all the machines
01:41 and like just like turn knobs and like make a little,
01:44 kind of make a little industrial dance party for myself
01:50 for hours and hours and hours.
01:52 And then later on I would kind of comb back through that stuff
01:57 and go, okay, what's here that I can,
02:01 that feels like lightning in a bottle
02:03 that I can make a whole song around?
02:05 So there's, truth be told, probably 3% of the music I made
02:11 in the past two and a half years or something
02:14 is what's on the album.
02:17 There are hours and hours.
02:18 I'm not saying it's good, you know.
02:20 It's like, there's hours and hours of just like me jamming
02:26 on synths and drum machines and modulars.
02:30 So at what point did you start to kind of streamline that
02:33 down to 3% that became the album?
02:36 That was the hard part.
02:38 And really like finding things that I was like,
02:44 the sonics of this and the sound of this
02:48 is telling me something.
02:50 And I don't know what it is, but I just need to listen
02:52 and try and try and find it and kind of find the song
02:56 that's in there, that's somehow in this electricity.
03:01 I think you've described it as post-play pop.
03:05 I did. I probably shouldn't have.
03:07 At what point?
03:08 I probably shouldn't have done that.
03:09 You don't like that description?
03:10 I don't like the description, no.
03:11 I don't like the description, one, because like,
03:14 listen, no one wants to be reminded of the pandemic.
03:18 I mean, you know what I mean?
03:20 Like that's just not where it is.
03:22 And then also, I don't really know that I would call this,
03:25 I would say it's pop in the sense of there are memorable
03:28 melodies or something, or it grooves.
03:32 But I don't really, I don't think of this record
03:35 as particularly pop in any way.
03:37 It's kind of a, it's a heavier record in terms of sonically
03:41 and subject matter and I don't know.
03:44 What would you say the overarching story you're telling
03:46 with the album is?
03:47 Like life is impossible.
03:49 Like life is, life is so weird and hard, I think,
03:59 for everybody in unique ways and universal ways.
04:04 But the flip side of that is like, well,
04:07 we just have one of them and we get to live it.
04:09 So like, let's live, let's really live it.
04:15 And there's a kind of beautiful contradiction therein.
04:18 It does feel kind of like an album of two halves.
04:20 The first half is about, oh my God, life is so brutal.
04:24 It's confronting, there's so much to kind of deal with.
04:27 And then the second half is more, I'm going to push through,
04:30 I'm going to find a way to deal with this.
04:31 Yeah, because we do.
04:33 Like we all do.
04:34 We all do.
04:35 And that's, like we all have that grit.
04:38 We all, we all, if we're lucky, you know,
04:42 the only thing worth living for is like love.
04:45 And it sounds trite, but it's trite because it's fucking true.
04:49 You know, that's the only thing.
04:51 That's all we got.
04:52 We are all we got.
04:53 So make it, make it count, man.
04:57 What was the thinking behind the album title?
04:59 I know it's the closing track,
05:00 but why did it become the title track?
05:02 All Born Screaming.
05:04 Well, I think it just kind of sums it up, right?
05:07 Because, you know, we're all, we're all born screaming.
05:11 We're all born in some ways in, against our will.
05:18 We didn't ask for this.
05:20 But at the same time, if you're born screaming, it's a great sign.
05:23 Like that's the sign that you're alive.
05:25 Like, thank God you can hear the baby, it's screaming.
05:28 And then also, you know, we're all, we're born in protest in some way.
05:32 We're, we're, screaming is what it means to be alive.
05:38 I love this idea because sometimes you think of us,
05:40 well, often we think of a scream as like a stage with terror and being,
05:43 but actually it is like a howl of pure life.
05:45 It's a very primal emotion.
05:47 Absolutely.
05:49 Absolutely.
05:50 It's, it's the best news in the world if the baby is screaming, you know?
05:53 Yeah, exactly.
05:54 It's a miracle.
05:55 So I love the fact that you chose that as the kind of,
05:57 the title of the album because it kind of feels quite galvanizing in a way.
06:01 It feels, yeah, thank you.
06:02 I mean, it's universal.
06:04 Absolutely.
06:05 This is the first album of yours that you've entirely produced yourself.
06:09 Was that something that you kind of went in thinking that's what you want to do?
06:12 Or was it just the way it evolved when you were playing around with the synths?
06:15 I think that I, I figured that I just needed to really,
06:23 really hone my lexicon as a producer.
06:25 And I've co-produced everything I've ever done.
06:28 And I've been recording myself since I was 14.
06:33 I mean, that's how I learned recording myself on,
06:36 first on like a Tascam, you know, 4-track or whatever.
06:40 And then on early digital recording devices on computers.
06:45 And so recording myself was always the way that I learned how to arrange and
06:51 think about music.
06:52 And, and it was my mirror, like, what do I sound like for better, for worse?
06:57 And so I've, it's always just been a part of my process.
07:01 This one,
07:03 I knew that there were sounds that were inside my head that I,
07:11 and I alone could sort of render.
07:16 I just wanted to be the first and final filter of, of everything.
07:23 And it was harder.
07:25 It's certainly harder to, it's hard to sit with yourself.
07:30 It's hard.
07:32 It's hard.
07:34 It's not that pretty, you know, but I think,
07:38 I think the result is the,
07:42 the rawest and also most sonically pristine kind of thing I've done so far.
07:48 You said like you're the first and the final say on each track.
07:51 Were there other, were there people you brought in as a kind of sound?
07:53 Oh God, yeah. Oh God, yeah.
07:55 I mean, I'm so lucky to have great friends who also are great rippers.
08:04 And also get to call on people who I was just a fan of,
08:08 who I didn't know before, but was like, oh, this person.
08:12 So Dave Grohl is a buddy and he came in,
08:16 he came into my studio and just everything,
08:21 everything they say is true.
08:23 Like he's the nicest guy in rock.
08:25 Like he's the, he's the most fun hang.
08:28 Like he just drives over in the truck.
08:30 He's heard the song a few times and because he's Dave Grohl and he's so
08:34 musical, he's heard the song a few times and he knows every twist and every
08:37 turn and every turnaround in the song.
08:40 So like you just, you hang and he like smokes some parliaments and like
08:45 tells war stories and drinks some coffee and smokes more parliaments.
08:48 And then he's like, cool, let's go.
08:51 And then he just goes in there and it's Dave fucking Grohl on the drums.
08:55 And it's like, and he plays it perfectly.
08:58 He knows every turnaround, like I said, and,
09:01 and it just lights you up, man, to hear him play.
09:06 He's just a force of nature on those drums.
09:10 So, so he played on a couple songs.
09:14 My friend Kate LeBon,
09:15 who's the best and an incredible producer in her own right.
09:19 And I think just my favorite just saw like there's music you love and
09:25 there's music you love and that you also listen to all the time.
09:28 And Kate's somebody I listen to all the time,
09:30 especially her last record Pompeii.
09:32 So we've been good friends for a really long time.
09:35 So I called Kate in and she, she played bass on All Born Screaming.
09:40 She's singing on All Born Screaming.
09:43 She really held my hand at a moment when I wanted to just drown that baby in
09:48 the bathwater.
09:49 Not throw it out, but just drown it.
09:53 And, and Mark Giuliana on drums,
09:57 Josh Fries on drums, Stella Manzawa on drums,
10:01 Justin Mildell Johnson on bass,
10:05 David Rolikey on horn.
10:07 So a tight crew, you know,
10:10 a tight little, little wrecking crew.
10:13 - Is it important to have like these outside voices come in at certain points
10:17 to kind of open things up a bit where maybe you were a bit in your head about it?
10:20 - Absolutely.
10:21 I mean, I think it's important to just,
10:24 to just play something for someone and you can tell where their attention,
10:31 just energetically where their attention wanders.
10:35 You learn so many things about a song playing it back for people.
10:39 You go, oh, okay, that's not quite working.
10:41 That's not, let me adjust here.
10:43 To have other people who I know and love and trust and love their work come in
10:49 and do their thing on the song.
10:51 Or in the case of Josh Fries,
10:54 I don't know if this is too much in the weeds, but I mean,
10:58 he's known as like the drummer,
11:01 the great rock drummer of all your favorite bands.
11:03 But I had him play on two songs that have nothing to do really with rock.
11:09 And one first was "Hell is Near" and it takes a great player to do what is
11:18 outside of their comfort zone and do it well and do something that they're not
11:21 usually asked to do.
11:23 And his level of just subtlety and restraint on "Hell is Near" I find zen-like
11:30 and beautiful.
11:31 And then he played drums on another song on the record called "So Many
11:35 Planets."
11:36 And he's like, you know, basically that's my tip of the hat to two-tone and
11:43 second-wave ska.
11:45 And like Lee Scratchberry, you know?
11:50 But like, what if you did dub very wrong.
11:55 And his playing on that particular song is just so,
12:01 it's like just a ballerina just fluttering around.
12:04 But then he'll do really great things, like really rush drum fills.
12:08 So it's like it's stilted and it's wrong, but it just feels so good.
12:11 Anyway, that was probably more nerdy talk than you wanted to know.
12:16 - I actually wanted to ask about that track.
12:18 I was wondering if you kind of thought consciously at the start,
12:21 "I want to make something which kind of nods to ska," or if it just kind of
12:24 evolved that way naturally.
12:26 - I wrote the song, and I wrote the song and I tried many different feels.
12:34 And my love of King Tubby and the specials, I was like, "Okay,
12:46 maybe I can harness my love of those two things in this song,
12:52 and it will be correct.
12:55 And maybe if I do two-tone wrong, it will be cool."
13:01 You know, because that's how so much great music is the result of like people
13:08 who don't know how to do a certain genre just trying their best and failing
13:15 at that, but making something kind of really interesting and new.
13:19 Yeah, that would be punk.
13:21 - See, another song I wanted to ask about is "Big Time Nothing,"
13:23 which kind of roars out of the speakers.
13:25 It has such sonic confidence.
13:27 How did that song take shape, and what kind of vibe were you going for?
13:31 - That song was a result of one of the many hours spent with Modular since.
13:40 So the first thing that came about with that song is the bass line,
13:43 with the [vocalizing] just like sort of like acid-y and kind of early '90s-y.
13:49 And I was like, "Oh, that's it.
13:54 That's tough," you know?
13:57 So I wrote the song "Big Time Nothing" around it.
14:01 And I don't want to give too much of the song away because I would never want,
14:07 you know, my point of view or where the genesis of it or what it means to me
14:13 diminish what it means to someone else because it's not about me anymore
14:16 and it's absolutely for the listener.
14:18 That said, I will say, like, to me, the song was just like what depression
14:27 says to you, you know?
14:30 This, like, anxious, roiling, like, just the sound of the inside of my head,
14:34 the everyday, the "Go, go, go, you stupid bitch."
14:40 [Laughter]
14:42 "Go, go, go, you stupid bitch.
14:44 You think you're something and you're fucking nothing, you idiot."
14:48 [Laughter]
14:51 How's that for a slogan?
14:54 Do you think generally, like, not just about this song but all the music you've made,
14:57 and I guess all the music you've listened to, that sometimes you can over-explain
15:01 the song because people are always going to project their own kind of interpretation onto it.
15:06 Right, and I think it's kind of celebrated now to be very specific
15:11 or to be very autobiographical, or not to be autobiographical,
15:15 to make it about a specific moment in the artist's life
15:24 and have all things kind of point back, lead you back to the artist.
15:28 And I, when I think about music that I love,
15:38 I don't give a shit what the artist was thinking.
15:41 I don't give a shit, you know, whether it was about their kid or it was about a breakup.
15:47 I don't fucking care. I care what it means to me.
15:50 And I realize that I really want to, I've erred in the past for sure,
15:55 and I really want to protect what it means for other people in their lives.
16:02 It's for them, it's not for me.
16:03 I always think it's kind of a shame these days that you can Google lyrics,
16:06 because like when I was growing up you couldn't, and sometimes you misheard lyrics.
16:09 Absolutely.
16:10 But that was part of the, you connected maybe with the wrong lyric,
16:12 but that was your personal journey with the song.
16:14 Oh my god, it's like listening to Cockatoo Twins or something, where it's like, it's a Rorschach.
16:18 There's one, I'm spacing on the title of the song, but it's like,
16:23 there's one song that I've been listening to, I've been listening to nothing but Heaven or Las Vegas,
16:28 just because it's the only thing that makes me feel okay at this moment of life.
16:32 And there's one song and the only lyric I recognize is, "Father."
16:37 You know, and it's like, it's just a Rorschach test, you know.
16:41 So yeah, I get you.
16:43 Something else I wanted to ask about, something amazing you did last year was sing Running Up That Hill
16:48 at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame when Kate Bush was inducted.
16:51 How did that come about and how did it feel in the moment?
16:54 I don't know, they asked me.
16:56 I don't know how it came about, they asked me to do it.
17:01 And man, getting and practicing that song, which I did quite a bit,
17:09 one of the things I realized and learned when I dug deep into not just singing along with Kate Bush,
17:18 you know, on the record or something, but actually singing the song and finding the grooves
17:24 is just how amazing her voice is able to feel totally urgent and totally effortless.
17:35 Like, it doesn't hurt me, you know.
17:39 But it's not rushed, it's not pushed, she's not straining.
17:46 It's just everything about her voice is completely urgent.
17:51 It's just like watching a flame, you know, go across the skies.
17:56 So that was that. I found that fascinating.
18:00 And I don't know. And then I blacked out and sang her song.
18:04 I don't fucking know.
18:06 Nobody should cover Kate Bush.
18:08 Really?
18:09 No, of course not.
18:10 We recommend it.
18:12 What is it about her as an artist that you particularly find inspiring?
18:17 I mean, so many things about Kate Bush.
18:22 But if you listen, that is weirdo music.
18:30 It is weirdo music with weird time signatures, weird changes that is also so deeply resonant with people
18:44 and so deeply resonant with culture.
18:48 And that is, you don't get those.
18:52 You don't, that doesn't happen.
18:55 That doesn't happen, you know.
18:58 But her brain and her genius and her voice and her singularity, that just doesn't happen.
19:06 I was actually just listening to a podcast about her and the podcast host were talking about how she has this kind of rare gift for empathy.
19:12 Like she can kind of take on these characters in her song and her voice and it's everything.
19:17 It's a song like the production.
19:18 She can kind of just make you feel for that character in a really rare way.
19:23 Yeah, well I mean and I know that she talks about singing from the point of view of different characters in her music.
19:30 But yeah, you always just feel like she's, it's Kate Bush and she is channeling just something from another planet.
19:42 But something that's very, so deeply heartfelt.
19:45 You mentioned covering Kate Bush is a tall order.
19:48 But over the last few years you've covered quite a lot of songs that you would say are iconic.
19:53 Young Americans, Sweet Dreams Are Made Of This, Fleetwood Mac Dreams.
19:57 Yeah, who the fuck let me do that?
19:59 Whose fault is that?
20:01 I guess not when you're covering any song, but a special song that is like so well known.
20:06 Do you have a particular technique for finding your own way in?
20:08 Is it just about listening to them really deeply or?
20:11 No, I mean I think you think you know a song until you have to sing it without the lead singer.
20:22 You think you know it.
20:25 You think you know the words to Young Americans until you have to know all the words to Young Americans.
20:29 There's a lot of words there.
20:32 I'm a big practicer, so I just practice and practice until I can know it in my body.
20:40 I have to know it in my body and not hear.
20:43 And it has to be like I have to just know it physically and embody it in order to do it.
20:54 Or in order to do it with any level of success or from my own voice.
21:01 So it's kind of like muscle memory and then you can kind of be free with it when you know it's like that ingrained in you.
21:05 Yeah, it's very muscle memory.
21:07 Another amazing thing I wanted to ask about that happened recently is a song that you co-wrote and played on Cruel Summer, Taylor Swift.
21:14 Whoa, yeah.
21:15 It was released in 2019. I imagine maybe you even wrote it earlier than that.
21:18 But it went to number one just last October.
21:21 How did that feel? Because it was wild.
21:23 It was crazy.
21:25 I mean I always thought the song on the context of that record, I was like, oh, that's a great, that should be a single.
21:32 It's a great song.
21:34 And then I don't even think it was a single.
21:37 It just was like a fan favorite.
21:40 And it's like the fans just decided, no, this is your hit song, which is so wild and so modern.
21:49 So organic, yeah, exactly.
21:51 Yeah.
21:52 So that was just a real bonus Jonas there.
21:57 It seems like it was just that Taylor played it in her set list on the ERAS tour and people were like, oh, we love this song.
22:05 And then it was like they were sharing live versions on TikTok and it just kind of steamrolled.
22:09 Is that how it happened?
22:10 I thought that people were like really excited about it before the tour.
22:14 Yeah, I think that's why.
22:16 So I think it was like, yeah.
22:18 Yeah, I mean, that's one hell of a fan base.
22:23 It's quite amazing.
22:25 They turned a non-single into a number one hit.
22:27 Yeah.
22:28 I mean, changing world economies.
22:31 Let's go.
22:32 It's wild.
22:34 Taylor obviously named her tour the ERAS tour, but I think pop fans, music fans these days talk about eras of artists, like the artists in this era.
22:40 Is that how you think of your own career or is that, or do you think of it more as a whole?
22:44 Or do you see it as being chopped up into distinct eras?
22:47 I think of my life in terms of, oh, wait, where was I on tour?
22:55 Like there's a whole chunk of life, especially from my second record to Mass Seduction, where it's just a blur of touring.
23:11 I was just like hit.
23:13 And I would, it was crazy.
23:15 I mean, I would like finish a tour, a year long, year and a half long grueling tour, and then start writing a record the next day.
23:24 I just was like really, really on one, as they say.
23:30 So that's more, I don't really, some parts are blurrier than others, if I'm very honest.
23:37 But yeah, I guess I do, I more think of my, it's not that I think of my life in specific eras.
23:47 It's more like I look back at what was, and try to figure out what was happening in my life by which record I was doing.
24:00 That's how I trace like life and death and relationships and, you know, it's wild.
24:09 Yeah.
24:10 You said in the past you've come off a big tour and then start working on your record, which seems wild.
24:15 But when, these days, when do you feel the most creative?
24:18 When is the best time for you to go and make music?
24:21 I don't believe that people need to feel creative to go make some shit.
24:27 I think, I mean, I was just reading this, Nick Cave has that great thing of the Red Hand Files where he answers fan letters and somebody had written in and was like, you know, things are so messed up in the world that I just can't create.
24:44 It's like, okay.
24:48 Or maybe the world needs you now more than ever.
24:51 Or maybe it's like doing any other job where, one, if you're an artist and manage to somehow, by like the grace of God, make a living making art, you're the luckiest motherfucker in the world.
25:09 So who cares when the fuck you fucking feel like being creative?
25:14 Just go and put the hours in.
25:17 I know that sounds very blue collar, but it's like, you get to make a living making songs and just go work.
25:28 Just go, just be, just put in hours.
25:31 Period.
25:32 Don't be a little bitch.
25:35 How do you see your purpose as an artist?
25:37 Is that okay, PC?
25:38 Yeah, I love it.
25:40 How do you see your purpose as an artist and has that changed over time?
25:44 I think my purpose as an artist, well, my personal goal, I guess, would just be to be wilder and go deeper with every record and just try to make great work.
26:00 And by great work, I mean, obviously, whatever that means to me, whatever I have figured out matters and whatever my calculus is.
26:09 And that's my calculus, who knows what other people's is, but just make great work.
26:15 Period.
26:17 It's been, I think, 17 years since your debut album came out.
26:20 Well, that can't be because I'm 23.
26:24 You were making music before then.
26:28 No, that can't be.
26:29 Check your fat, check your math.
26:31 I'm not sure about that.
26:32 It's been three years since your debut.
26:35 What advice would you go, this is a cheesy question.
26:37 What advice would you go back and give yourself back then or wouldn't you?
26:41 What advice would I give?
26:45 I feel like I can get medicated.
26:49 No, I would, what would I give my advice?
26:54 I'm not sure that I would give any advice because I think that every lesson was like hard learned or every scar was hard one.
27:10 So I just don't think you can go from point A to point B without getting a little muddy.
27:19 Everything's a building block, I guess, into where you are now.
27:21 Yeah, it's all fine. If I'd skipped some lesson, then it would bite me in the ass now.
27:26 Just to ask a couple more questions about the album.
27:28 What did you learn about yourself from making it and the way you made it?
27:32 I think that I learned that I might have a little bit of like an attention.
27:47 Do we call it a disorder anymore?
27:49 What do we have?
27:51 ADHD, I guess.
27:52 Yeah, I might have a scotch of that. I might have a little scotch.
27:57 I think quite a lot of artists do.
27:59 Yeah, this is made clear to me just from toiling.
28:05 Having produced this album entirely by yourself, can you see yourself doing that in future?
28:09 Or did it make you kind of on the on the on the thing, actually, no, I actually really want to go and collaborate more closely next time.
28:16 I really love collaboration. I really do.
28:19 And I did collaborate on this album in terms of bringing in people who I love and admire their work and got to play with them.
28:33 I've it's harder.
28:38 It's I think it's a lot less fun.
28:42 But I think it's worth it.
28:45 So I would definitely do it again.
28:48 And I would definitely just on the flip side, just produce things for other people or be the producer for someone, because that I think would be that would be really fun.
28:59 And then I could kind of flex the muscles that I made doing this, but without without having to constantly sort of toggle between performer and bird's eye view and performer and bird's eye view.
29:12 Oh, an engineer and editor. And, you know, I think that's this is the attention thing that I'm talking about.
29:18 It would be like sing a note. Oh, no, wait, edit. Oh, wait, that synth.
29:23 Actually, go to the drum machine like there was my process was if you saw security footage of it, you know, you might be concerned about this person.
29:35 And the last one, what do you want people to take away from the album?
29:39 I want people to take away whatever they want.
29:43 Whatever they want. Any experience they have with it is absolutely fine with me, whether it's loving it, whether it's revulsion.
29:51 I think people are smart. I think fans are smart.
29:56 I think that people want to be confronted. I think people want to be consoled.
30:04 I think they want to be challenged. And I hope that this record does that. If not, I hope they find it someplace else.
30:14 Amazing. Thank you so much for time. Thank you.
30:16 Thank you.
30:18 Oh.
30:19 (upbeat music)
30:21 [BLANK_AUDIO]