For this week's In Conversation we sat down with actor and musician Joe Keery, a.k.a. Djo to discuss his TikTok smash 'End Of Beginning', his nostalgia for the Chicago music scene, his love for Charli XCX and potential future collaborators
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00:00 While you're in the UK you're going to watch the Manchester derby. Are you a big football fan?
00:04 You know, I don't know too much about it, but I know my good friend Charlie Heaton is an Arsenal fan.
00:11 So he's probably not going to be too happy with me.
00:14 Hi, I'm Nick and I'm joined by Joe for the latest in the Enemies in Conversation series.
00:26 How's it going today?
00:27 It's good, it's good. Thanks for having me.
00:28 You're saying it's your first time in London. How are you finding it?
00:31 It's my first time in London. It's great. I like it a lot so far.
00:34 Like we were saying, I've only been here for a day and it's changed, but it's great. I really like it.
00:39 And you've already had a massive torrential downpour and now a really bright sunny day, so you've seen the full spectrum of London weather.
00:44 Exactly, exactly. I got caught in the rain when I first got here. I went for a little walk and just got dumped on.
00:49 So that seems classic.
00:52 Practically an honorary Brit.
00:53 Yes, at this point.
00:55 Well, your song End of Beginning has had this amazing journey. First it was a viral hit and now it's really storming the charts.
01:03 When did you notice that something special was happening with this song?
01:06 Yeah, we were just talking. My friend, collaborator, we mix together, produce together, Adam Tyne, his wife Carolina is a librarian.
01:19 And so she is always very research based and just likes to kind of dig into things and research things.
01:28 So she, I think maybe through a friend, saw that it was gaining some traction, I guess, online.
01:35 And then told Adam, who told me, it kind of happens sometimes where your songs will hit a little bump and then it'll kind of go back down to where it was.
01:46 But this time it kind of just caught a little wave and then kept going up. So I have no idea really what's going on.
01:54 Did it really take you by surprise? Because it wasn't released as a single when the album came out. It's kind of just happened of its own volition.
02:01 It's totally happened. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it did take me by surprise. Yeah. But it's cool. It seems like people have kind of hooked into the song.
02:08 I mean, obviously people are using it in their connection to Chicago, but people are also connecting it to their version of that city or that time in their life.
02:20 So that's really kind of, that's the whole point of making music is that people take your song and apply it to their own life and make it kind of their own.
02:29 So to have something that I did do that for other people is crazy.
02:34 That must be so affirming that this song that's about a particular sentiment for you, people have been able to kind of take that sentiment and apply it to their own experience.
02:41 It's very weird. It hasn't not happened to me until now. Yeah, it's very cool. It's not lost on me how kind of rare also that is.
02:52 Because it's like, for me, I wasn't trying to necessarily write something. I didn't sit down and say, I'm going to write something a lot of people can relate to.
03:00 I kind of just wrote something based on my own personal experience and the way that I was feeling.
03:05 And the fact that so many other people feel that way, too, is so cool.
03:10 What were you feeling when you wrote the song? What was kind of going through your head?
03:14 It was basically, it's just a reflection on my time in my early 20s living in Chicago where I went to college and graduated and played in a few bands and was kind of in the music scene and waiting tables and auditioning for commercials and stuff.
03:38 And every time I go back to Chicago and just the smell of the city and the neighborhoods where I used to hang out, the bars that I used to go to, and just kind of going back to those places and reliving that and kind of that life flashing before your eyes, I guess.
03:59 It's about that experience, I guess, and about how I was kind of on the precipice of a big change in my life and was so anxious to live out my future that maybe I didn't realize what a special time I was in at the time.
04:18 In a lot of ways, it's a song about kind of nostalgia, another version of me and stuff, but it's also about, it's also kind of like a self-declaration to try to appreciate your present also, but how your past kind of will always stay with you and inform who you are.
04:41 I feel like at that age, you know, when you do go off to college, early 20s, people are always in such a rush for the next thing.
04:47 Yeah.
04:48 And they don't quite appreciate how magical that time is in a way.
04:51 Definitely. Because that's, you kind of, it's your first time when you're, for me, it was my first time living as an adult on my own, I guess, like schedule.
05:02 I was like making my own, really making my own schedule for the first time in my life. I guess also that just those relationships that you make at that time, friendships that you have are so important.
05:11 And for me, those are, will be my friends for life. So yeah, just kind of like a song that is bittersweet is the way that I feel about that time.
05:23 Happy that it happened, sad that it's over, but it was, yeah, very formative.
05:28 That's the feeling I feel like the song really captures of going back to somewhere where you used to live and hang out and having that rush of nostalgia, but also knowing that you can never get that back.
05:37 Yeah.
05:38 That's always going to be slightly sad, isn't it?
05:39 It is. Yeah, it really is. I mean, I guess that is kind of nostalgia.
05:44 And then I guess in terms of the way that the song came together, it was different than the rest of the songs on that album because it was one that was started and finished at the studio.
05:59 I had the first record I did, I just did at home and then mixed it at home. The second one, I wrote a lot of the stuff at home. Me and Adam wrote stuff together. And then we brought, I think like maybe 10 or 11 or 12 songs into a studio in LA, this place Sound Factory.
06:19 And we worked with this great guy Davide, this engineer, and we retracked some drums, we retract a lot of vocals, we put stuff together. So it was kind of like a half and half at home and then in the studio.
06:31 And then towards the end of it, we kind of felt like there was a gap missing in the whole album, I felt that way.
06:38 And there was like an idea that was just a voice note, that it was a melody in a guitar thing. And so me and Teddy, who did the drums on the record and some of the guitar, he actually played the kind of wailing guitar in the beginning as well.
06:52 He's the drummer of Slow Pull also. I love Slow Pull. Slow Pull's amazing.
06:56 We tracked the three parts live, the drums, bass and guitar, and just kind of did it in this way that felt just like an older way of recording.
07:04 Just writing a song in the studio, quick and dirty, and trying not to be complicated, not overthink it.
07:10 And I also think that has a lot to do with why the song feels the way that it feels, because I guess what I learned through that is that sometimes overbaking things isn't necessarily the best, going too detail-focused.
07:24 Really, getting in the weeds can be fun and can get great results, but kind of also informed the way that I'm trying to do stuff now, which is really capturing the inspiration for ideas as they sort of happen naturally, rather than trying to have that happen at home and then recreate it.
07:46 Because you generally can't get that initial thing back. So it's kind of all about sort of tricking yourself, and with that song I felt like I was able to trick myself because I sort of knew what the song was going to be about, kind of knew what the...
08:00 Set it up where I knew the structure of the song, sort of, I knew kind of what we wanted it to be about.
08:06 And then once we got to the studio it just was like, whooosh, and it happened really quickly. And I think that that's why maybe it has the kind of directness that it has.
08:16 What kind of purpose do you see that song as having on the album? Because you've sequenced it kind of in the middle. Did it feel like the centrepiece when you made it?
08:22 It didn't really feel like the centrepiece, it just felt like different than everything else to me, and felt like... it just kind of felt like the right place, I guess, to put it.
08:30 I kind of didn't really know where to put it, actually, it's funny. I kind of knew the beginning and I kind of knew the end, and so it felt like kind of this really nice middle point.
08:39 It's funny, you listen back, like, this song now having this moment, I hadn't really listened to "Decide" in a while, so I listened back to it, and still you're like, maddened by it.
08:51 Like, I wish I had... you know. But it is what it is, I'm happy with what it is, but it is always funny to look back, and now with even more perspective to be able to have an opinion on it.
09:01 Yeah, I guess because it's... I mean, is the album about 18 months old now?
09:04 It's old! Yeah, in my mind, I would kind of have moved on.
09:08 I guess you made it even before we heard it.
09:10 Way before, it was done like six months before it even came out, so... yeah, it's funny. I guess that's just the way it works, though.
09:16 How would you say your sound progressed on "Decide"? Who were your influences when you were making the album?
09:23 I was listening to a lot of house music, I was listening to a lot of Gustafelstein, a lot of Justice, a lot of Daft Punk, I was listening to Charlie XCX a fair amount, Caroline Polachek I had just found her stuff, I was into.
09:43 "Wanna Trick Spoint Never?" I kind of discovered that guy through the Safdie Brothers movies.
09:48 Yeah, it was a lot, but then always there's an element of like, "The Beatles," and kind of more classic songwriters, and that was kind of more of an influence, I guess, especially on the first thing that I did.
10:02 Yeah, I guess those are kind of the main ones, but hard to completely remember. The sound of that one is definitely... it sounds like we really were in the box a lot more and really kind of going crazy, and because we were, me and Adam mixed everything for that virtually.
10:19 I was in Zurich and had COVID, I had taken a vacation and he was in Texas where he lives, and we would just get up every day and spend like 10 hours on this live screen thing, getting just really, really detail focused. And like I said, maybe sometimes a little too in the weeds, but I think that's why it maybe sounds the way that it does.
10:41 How is it working over Zoom? Because often there's like a slight delay, which I imagine when making music would be incredibly frustrating, even if it's half a second or something.
10:48 Yeah. We have a pretty good system figured out where it's like a screen share thing, and we'll kind of... Adam will drive and we've got this program where we can kind of like mark up the screen, so that's helpful. And it's nice because it can be very visual, but it is... I mean, it's not like the regular way that people make music.
11:08 And I think it also kind of like informs the way that you do it. And it's a cool way to like start an album is with like an idea of how you want to work. And that can really inform what happens.
11:19 Do you need any sort of certain like environmental factors to be able to be creative and write songs, or have you got good at kind of doing it wherever you happen to be on any given time?
11:28 Kind of wherever. But you have to just make the time. You really have to like, yeah, you have to like set yourself up for it. So if you are lazy and you like don't have instruments or don't have this, or it's just nice to have like instruments lying around. So that's kind of the only thing, maybe coffee.
11:48 You mentioned Charli XCX and I've seen you talk about her before. What is it about her that you find so inspiring?
11:53 I feel like what she's really good at is she's really good at writing a song that is about a specific thing. And, you know, people can write a song about love, people can write a song about, you know, revenge or whatever.
12:05 And like a great example is this song from her most recent, I think it was like 2022, this song called "Yuck". It's a great song. And it's about such a funny thing. It's about like her being overstifled by a romantic partner, like a boy who's like really obsessed with her.
12:23 And I just feel like that's such a cool concept for a song and she just nails it. And I feel like she does that pretty consistently with a lot of her music. And I also love the production of her songs. So, yeah, I just think she's like really cool and doing her own thing and not afraid to, I guess, be yourself, which is kind of the whole point.
12:47 Yeah, she's got such a kind of strong artistic identity, I think. I've actually got a friend who's got a Yuck t-shirt from her merch because that song spoke to him so much.
12:56 Yeah, it's a great song. It's so cool. It's cool.
12:59 We spoke a little bit about Chicago earlier. I was wondering, did you feel at home on the music scene there straight away? Like when you kind of discovered that scene, did it feel like, yeah, this is where I'm meant to be?
13:09 I was just like a fanboy for a long time. That's how I felt. Because I was in theater school and there were a lot of bands that I kind of looked up to. This band Twin Peaks, they were younger guys than me, but they were just like, their live shows were so amazing. It just felt like, yeah, it was just exciting, I guess, to witness those shows.
13:36 And then, I mean, who else? The Whitney guys, definitely starstruck by those guys. Yeah. But as kind of, you know, I played with a band called Donkey Hotel for a while. And then I played with this band Post Animal.
13:51 And they were both really amazing experiences. And slowly kind of getting into it, you realize that everybody's just in it because they love it. The DIY scene there, when I was there, was all about really like supporting each other's bands and playing all these live shows. And, you know, in a room not unlike this, you'd pack a hundred people and play like a live show and have like four bands or something like that.
14:14 And it was just awesome. It was just really cool. People were doing it for what felt like all the right reasons. People just wanted to play live music and hear live music. And, you know, everybody was really hustling. It was inspiring. Also, to see all, you know, people being so creative and inventive with all the choices that they're doing, that it was really inspiring to me with my own music and stuff. So, it was just cool to be a part of. Yeah.
14:42 Was it like a gradual kind of realization that you were playing in bands? But did you think at some point, "I kind of want to do my own project"?
14:49 When I... I really found... I guess I started recording music. That was really when I first started. You know, I didn't love just writing a song on guitar and playing it and singing it. That's never been like my forte necessarily. It's like in the recording process that's probably... that's the most rewarding thing for me.
15:13 So, I guess like I down... I had Logic and downloaded that illegally and started making little loops and putting things together. Maybe when I was like at, you know, end of college or something like that. And that's where I was kind of like, "Oh, cool. This is really fun." And when you're in a band, there's always that little part of you that's like, that wants control. You're like, "I really think that we should play it this way."
15:41 But a part of being in a band, which I love, is releasing that and allowing the five individuals, six individuals to become one thing. So, you could never do it on your own. You know? It's something that could only happen together. And there's something very unique about that. But then also, the kind of like... producing is pretty much like directing. And the director kind of bossy guy in me also was like, "Oh, I really can see this whole thing." So, it's kind of fun to experience both of those things.
16:09 So, when I was playing in bands, I would also have like things that I would kind of write and just have on my own. And if we could do it as a band, that would be cool. But if not, no sweat. So, eventually, I guess I kind of like had enough kind of like backup ideas that I was like, "Well, I could do something with this."
16:25 And then ended up recording and writing stuff when I was working on the second season of the show in Atlanta. Just kind of like basically in my off time, setting up kind of in a room like this in my apartment and just doing it.
16:41 Do you still have like some of those very first ideas from that era like on your hard drive that you could potentially dust off? Are they still kind of there somewhere?
16:49 Yeah, I've got like a lot of old dusty ideas, but I don't know if I'll do anything with them. You know what actually was amazing was that Mac DeMarco album where he released all of those demos. I feel like that was a really exciting thing. I thought that was so cool. And I listened to... I think I listened to the whole thing. I don't even really know if I listened to the whole thing.
17:09 But it was really, I thought, really inspiring for someone to just like... I connected with him because he's like, "I'm just cleaning out my closet so I can kind of like release these new ideas." I don't know if I'll... It was really brave of him also.
17:22 Yeah, it's brave.
17:23 It's so brave. So, I don't know, maybe one day do something like that. But right now, I feel like I'm more excited and trying to create new stuff.
17:34 I think for an artist that must be quite exposing to think I'm going to put out every little thing that wasn't finished. It's kind of like showing your workings or something.
17:42 Yeah, it's kind of cool though. I mean, what I liked about the Mac thing is that you could kind of like maybe get a little bit more of an understanding of his process. So, I think that's... I'm a fan of people and I love that. It's the same reason why people I think really love the Get Back documentary.
17:59 You see these things that you kind of held as these iconic things sort of just kind of come out of the muck. Not that it makes it any less iconic, but it kind of demystifies it a little bit and allows you to see these idols as just guys.
18:16 I wanted to ask about playing live because you have done shows in the States. Is the plan at some point to do Europe and Asia as well?
18:23 Yeah, definitely. I mean, I would love to play. It's a whole different beast. I've toured with the Post Animal guys. I like would come up and play a song with them. This was like before the pandemic.
18:35 It is so much work. I have so much respect for live musicians. It takes a whole lot out of you. And to be completely out of your routine and to take care of yourself, it's a gauntlet. So, it's something that I would really like to do.
18:53 In the past, we've kind of done a little one-off here, a little one-off here. And it would be really nice to have a proper amount of time to really focus on it. Obviously, it's just difficult with scheduling stuff for me at the moment.
19:05 But yeah, eventually, I'd love to do it, especially with some of these new songs that we're doing. And the stuff on the side, like you write this music to be performed live. That's how I see it. So, to not do that, I feel like would be not checking an item off my bucket list.
19:24 I feel like you need to be in some kind of live environment and see how End of Beginning goes down now because I feel like it would just be electric.
19:31 Yeah, it would be cool. I mean, even when we got to play it the few times that we did, it was awesome. Yeah, it was very cool.
19:39 I guess the thing is with touring, it kind of involves rebuilding your schedule. You have to rebuild your day, so you kind of peak at 9, 10 p.m., which is very different from most kind of schedules.
19:50 Yeah, it's really crazy. It really is. To be able to really give it like that. Because you want to be able to give it all that you have, but if you don't kind of design the rest of your whole day around that, then you can kind of deflate the balloon before the show, I think.
20:08 I always wonder what kind of artists, people, and bands do after they come off stage. You've got this massive adrenaline buzz, and then you've got to kind of put that energy somewhere. You've got to find some way to decompress.
20:17 I mean, we would just load up, I guess. That's all we would do. It was just us. It was just like we would pack the van and then nothing crazy, really. Yeah.
20:26 How do you see your purpose as a musician? Big question.
20:29 That's a big question. Just to, I guess, like the purpose, try to create without a filter is right now is I feel like what the purpose is, is to be as unfiltered as possible. Yeah, just to create.
20:43 Just to kind of block out in some sense is the idea that it's going to be out there and people are going to receive it. Can that be distracting if you're thinking about the way something is going to be taken?
20:51 Yes. Yeah, I think that's bad. The more that you can just not isolate yourself, obviously, you can't totally do that. But the more you're willing to chase an idea that you think might be like foolish and might make you look like an idiot, I guess.
21:09 Like going down those paths, I think are important paths to go down because the best stuff, I feel like, is down there.
21:19 Is there anyone in particular you'd like to collaborate with, like whether it's an artist or a producer or just anyone?
21:24 Oh man, so many. Maybe Jeff Lynne, I guess, is probably my top guy because he's pretty old and I love all of his music and the way that he created all of his music and the people he's worked with, I guess.
21:42 But there's so many people. There's so many talented people who would be... And also, I haven't really collaborated like that in a way with people who are kind of like outside of my direct friend group.
21:54 Because it's a sensitive thing to do. But I do think that kind of going down the path I was just talking about, kind of putting yourself in these uncomfortable situations, I've kind of learned in the acting way,
22:09 that's really good to make yourself kind of uncomfortable, you find something new.
22:14 And so I understand that that's the right thing to do, but I haven't quite put myself there in the music space yet. And that's sort of opening yourself up to new people.
22:24 Well, yeah, I always feel like the idea of like putting a musician with another songwriter, another producer and saying, "Right, you've never met before, but talk about the most intimate things in your life that you're feeling with someone." That's quite... That's a lot.
22:36 Yeah, but it can also... I mean, it can totally close down, but it can also incite something really amazing. So if you don't even take the chance, that will never happen.
22:48 I feel like now maybe that I feel a little bit more comfortable in a studio space and a little bit more confident in terms of writing. Maybe that's something I'd like to do sooner rather than later now.
23:01 Do you have any particular aims for this year? Or is it too hard to kind of plan at this point?
23:05 No, not really any aims. I mean, I would like to get new music out. I'd like to make myself like a home base, I guess, personally in my life, I guess. And just spend time with my close friends and family and plan a trip.
23:20 I'd like to plan a proper trip that doesn't involve... I do so many trips that are like, "Let's... I've been working on music with friends," or, "My friend Adam will come to New York and we'll work on music." But to do a trip that has nothing to do with any of that, that's just like, "Let's go hiking." Seems like it would be a nice thing to do.
23:42 While you're in the UK, you're going to watch the Manchester Derby. Are you a big football fan?
23:46 You know, I don't know too much about it, but I know my good friend Charlie Heaton is an Arsenal fan. So he's probably not going to be too happy with me that I'm going to this game. But, you know, what can I say?
24:00 It's a big match that you're going to.
24:02 It seems like an amazing, amazing match that I'm going to. So I'm really excited. The only football match I've been to was in Italy, was in Rome. I saw Roma versus Inter, Milan.
24:16 I mean, that would be a big match too.
24:18 And it was amazing. It was really cool. So I feel like a spoiled rotten brat going to these games.
24:25 Yeah, I hope the atmosphere will be amazing in Manchester.
24:28 I think so.
24:29 Thanks so much for your time. Really fun interview.
24:32 Absolutely. Thank you.
24:33 Thank you.
24:34 (upbeat music)
24:36 (upbeat music)