In this video, Dr. Oz asks Jordan Peterson if there is a way to make people safe or strong? Jordan Peterson expresses that strong is safer than safe. He connects it to parents who want to protect their children so they never let them go outside. Who is the danger here? Jordan Peterson says that danger is a part of human reality and we should be the master of snakes.
Also, Dr. Oz wonders what happens when you have a society that is dominated by a victim mentality? Jordan Peterson says that we are all thrown into existence without the choice of our ethnicity, gender, religion, or even socioeconomic status. He questions whether the victim mentality is the way we should conceptualize ourselves. We were all called to do something incredibly difficult.
Later, Dr. Oz explores the idea of a drama triangle. It revolves around someone at the very top which is the patriarch, someone at the bottom which is the victim, and a third person who doesn’t like that there is this system in place. They dislike the idea that there is someone on top and someone at the bottom so they want to destroy the system that created it. Dr. Oz then asks Jordan Peterson if justice is a political problem. Jordan Peterson agrees and says it is also a religious issue. Dr. Oz thinks that if we can’t function without judgment, there has to be justice. But he feels that we are struggling with the concept of justice now. Jordan Peterson says that we’ve always struggled with it. Because we don’t know the answer to the next problem.
Also, Dr. Oz wonders what happens when you have a society that is dominated by a victim mentality? Jordan Peterson says that we are all thrown into existence without the choice of our ethnicity, gender, religion, or even socioeconomic status. He questions whether the victim mentality is the way we should conceptualize ourselves. We were all called to do something incredibly difficult.
Later, Dr. Oz explores the idea of a drama triangle. It revolves around someone at the very top which is the patriarch, someone at the bottom which is the victim, and a third person who doesn’t like that there is this system in place. They dislike the idea that there is someone on top and someone at the bottom so they want to destroy the system that created it. Dr. Oz then asks Jordan Peterson if justice is a political problem. Jordan Peterson agrees and says it is also a religious issue. Dr. Oz thinks that if we can’t function without judgment, there has to be justice. But he feels that we are struggling with the concept of justice now. Jordan Peterson says that we’ve always struggled with it. Because we don’t know the answer to the next problem.
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00:00 Is our goal to make humans that are safe or strong?
00:04 Well, you can't. Strong is safer than safe.
00:08 Strong is safer than safe?
00:11 Yeah, well, look at it this way. Let's say that you're someone, you want to protect your kids at all costs, so you never let them go outside.
00:17 Well, who's the danger? Right?
00:21 Like, I thought for a long time, why God made paradise, he put Adam and Eve in it, that's the story.
00:28 What's up with the snake?
00:31 Well, you can't make anything safe enough so there's no snake in it. It's not possible.
00:37 That little story is a description of reality itself.
00:40 Bounded space, protected, garden, well-watered place, paradise.
00:45 Our eternal home, the proper balance between nature and culture, that's a garden.
00:51 Snake, why? Well, because the snake, the danger is an ineradical part of human reality.
00:58 And so, do you get rid of all the snakes? Well, you can't.
01:02 I mean, you can sort of approximately get rid of a few snakes.
01:05 There's no snakes in this house except for you and me and the rest of us here.
01:09 You know, and maybe that's the worst kind of snake.
01:12 But, so then what do you do? Well, you raise sons and daughters that can contend with snakes.
01:17 That's why Mary, for example, is often represented with her head in the stars and her foot on a serpent.
01:22 Because she's the master of snakes. And that doesn't mean there are no snakes.
01:26 And maybe it doesn't even mean that there shouldn't be any snakes.
01:29 But it does mean that we should be the master of snakes.
01:32 And that's why the snake handlers, you know, there's a whole ritual that's associated with that.
01:37 It's like, well, if you're an advocate of the divine word, you can handle the most dangerous of serpents.
01:43 Well, you can concretize that in some sense inappropriately, but you can see what it means.
01:48 And what's the best defense against snakes? Well, it's truth.
01:52 And maybe it's beauty. And there's other, you know, it's the summum bonum, actually.
01:57 But all of those other things are pointers to how to become a master of snakes.
02:02 And so a good mother doesn't say to her children, "There are no snakes."
02:07 She says, "Hey, straighten up there, kid, and no snake's too big for you."
02:12 And hopefully that's true. And, you know, snakes, they tend to grow in proportion to your ability.
02:18 So you bring up two interesting realities.
02:22 Let me speak to the first one of the victim mentality first, which is the belief by some that they're unable to be strong enough or they were held back from being strong enough.
02:31 And some people are in that situation, right, because they're so sick, they're so hurt, they're so crippled, so demolished by their existence.
02:38 We struggled that with my daughter, who had terrible rheumatoid arthritis, 38 afflicted joints, a dismal prognosis of multiple early joint replacements.
02:47 And she had two. And it's like, oh, God.
02:51 And one of the things we tried to help her with is, "Don't use your illness as an excuse, kiddo, because you're already so ruined and burdened that if you make that additional mistake of capitalizing on your illness,
03:03 you won't be able to distinguish between that bit of you that's left that's healthy and this totality of illness, and you'll be lost."
03:10 That was a very difficult act of discrimination for us.
03:14 How much do you forgive an ill child? How much can't they do?
03:18 How forgiving should you be? How merciful? And when does that start to become an impediment in and of itself?
03:25 It's so hard to figure that out.
03:28 And so what can she do? Well, can you do this?
03:31 Maybe you can do a little more. You push a little bit. How about this? Can you do this?
03:35 "I can't go to school today, Mom." Are you sure? Try to stand up. See if you can make it to the door.
03:41 Could you have breakfast? How about if I drive you to school?
03:45 Well, maybe I can do it then.
03:48 Societally, we've used the victim mentality, often not because of the victim.
03:57 Then you're a damn victim, of course, of the catastrophe of history and the arbitrariness of biology and the malevolence of the human spirit and all of that.
04:06 It's like, that's the thrownness. That's an existential statement. We're thrown into reality.
04:12 You know, you arbitrarily inhabit this body and not some other. You're male and not female.
04:16 And you're rich and not poor and Caucasian and not black, but you're Muslim and not Christian.
04:22 Did you choose that? No. It's like, you're dust. Spirit in it. Way to go.
04:30 Well, of course, you're a victim. What's your point exactly?
04:35 You and everyone else. So what are you going to do about it?
04:40 Is that the right way to conceptualize yourself exactly? Because that's not all you are.
04:45 You're also this infinite possibility that could make out of that subordination to arbitrary destiny something magnificent.
04:53 So which one? Beauty, truth, all that, you know, guides us toward the light, out of this abyss of victimhood.
05:04 As inescapable as it is and understandable as it is, it's not the right thing.
05:12 You're called to do something incredibly difficult.
05:15 You know, in the story of the Christian passion, Christ has to have someone help him carry his cross.
05:21 Hypothetically, that's God himself. Right? That's how difficult it is.
05:26 Even God himself can't manage it. Hardly.
05:30 So it's no wonder everyone thinks they're a victim. Because, yeah, you know, of course.
05:36 But can it make it worse? Can you stand up under that load and struggle uphill?
05:45 And hope that you can reduce the arbitrary horror and expand the good.
05:50 You know, I had a vision of heaven. Everything was good.
05:53 And what everyone was doing there was trying to make the good better infinitely.
05:57 That's heaven. The good that's always getting better.
06:00 And, you know, we could do that. We could do that.
06:06 What else should we do? What else is there to do?
06:11 So, and what's the alternative? Well, everything burns.
06:16 Hell. You think that's not real? You have no imagination if you don't think hell is real.
06:23 Is it eternal? If you're in it, it sure feels like it.
06:28 That's close enough, isn't it? And we don't know what eternal means anyways.
06:33 It's always been there. It's always lurking. It's always possible.
06:38 We're always creating it. So what's the alternative to being good?
06:44 Hell. And, you know, you can luxuriate in that and gloriate it.
06:49 Do you think people who are true victims realize that what you're saying is true?
06:55 And move past it for that reason? Oh, lots of them.
06:58 People have sent us stories, and I've seen my clinical practice,
07:02 people bearing unbearable loads with grace and dignity and courage.
07:06 This one client I had, I mentioned him, who was intellectually impaired and bullied.
07:11 His mother was like 80. He was about 40. She was still taking care of him.
07:15 She was still working full time. She was tough, man.
07:20 You know, I'll tell you this story. I took him to a strip club repeatedly.
07:25 To a strip club? Why? He was terrified of women. Absolutely terrified.
07:30 I mean absolutely terrified. Petrified. He couldn't even look at a woman,
07:34 much less talk to one. And, I mean, the way he was constituted,
07:39 he couldn't get past that. And I talked to his mother about it.
07:42 She was a straight Jewish conservative type. I said, look, I'm thinking about doing this.
07:46 I know it's like, it's exposure therapy. You know, it's right within clinical,
07:51 the clinical purview. Well, he couldn't go through life being terrified of women.
07:57 So, okay, how can he get access to some women because he has no social skills?
08:01 How the hell am I going to do this? Well, could I do that?
08:04 Well, it's a little unorthodox. Am I being stupid?
08:09 Well, his mom, you know, she's pretty reliable. Maybe I'll have a chat with her about it.
08:13 Go ahead. That was her attitude. Do it. It's a good idea.
08:18 So away we went once a week for like, I don't know how long.
08:21 Did it work? Oh, yes. Oh, yes. I mean, you know, he had many problems that were deep problems.
08:28 It wasn't like a miracle cure or anything, but he got way more confident.
08:31 Then he got a dog because he needed something to love. He was isolated.
08:35 Oh, my God, that dog just about killed him. People from the SPCA mugged him,
08:39 stole his dog. They stalked him, harassed him, harassed his mother, told her that if she didn't get that imbecile under control,
08:52 that there was going to be hell to pay. Animal activists, animal rights activists.
08:57 It was mind-boggling. He got a lot tougher and he took care of that damn dog.
09:01 He lost like 30 pounds taking care of that puppy.
09:04 Tried to get him a dog that was already trained, that wasn't a rescue dog. Couldn't find one anywhere.
09:09 So we got a puppy. Oh, my God, that puppy dominated the Maine.
09:13 So then he'd drag it sort of down the street because it would sit.
09:16 And then the animal rights people would like, well, this guy is torturing this dog,
09:20 which wasn't the case because the dog was actually torturing him.
09:23 You know, it was something, man.
09:26 So let me ask you a question that's been weighing me down around this issue of victimhood.
09:32 I have found more and more on the show that the victims steal themselves, realizing that they don't want to give up agency for their life.
09:41 And so they go out there like warriors, try to change the world. So they're less of a victim.
09:47 But that's dangerous. It is dangerous, but they're brave folks.
09:50 They've already been in the bottom. They know what it feels like.
09:53 You know, when you hit rock bottom, there's not many directions you can head.
09:56 And they just use that mantra and they get going.
09:58 But there's something called the drama triangle that I've discovered.
10:01 It's actually an older idea. It's developed in the 60s.
10:04 But the concept is this. You've got a patriarch, a person at the top of the hierarchy who's got power.
10:10 You've got someone at the very bottom that's the victim.
10:12 And theoretically, the person with power can be taking advantage of the person who's the victim.
10:15 And does.
10:16 And often does. And often does.
10:18 But you've got a third person, it's a triangle.
10:20 A third person who's not in this axis, who doesn't like the fact that one person's on top and one person's on the bottom.
10:28 And wants to destroy the system that created it.
10:32 And they'll destroy both the victim and the person at the top of the hierarchy,
10:37 because they want the whole hierarchy gone for that reason.
10:39 Them too.
10:40 And themselves.
10:41 Because they're in it whether they think so or not.
10:43 So, then that group actually becomes, they're activists.
10:46 They're often angry, but their pain is not addressed by helping the person at the bottom of the axis.
10:52 Because the victim is not the problem.
10:54 The fact that there is a possibility of a victim is the problem.
10:56 Yeah, right. That's right. Well, there you go.
10:58 That's the problem of human vulnerability.
11:00 And I see that a lot in academia. I definitely see it in politics.
11:03 It certainly defines the extremes of political parties.
11:07 So, what do you think about the enabler, the aider and the abetter, who's...
11:14 Well, we can't look for salvation in our political actions.
11:17 That's part of it.
11:18 I mean, that's not to say there's not a relevant and appropriate domain for political action.
11:22 It's more particularized, you know.
11:24 And there needs to be debate about what should happen where.
11:27 We have to put everything in its proper place.
11:29 But when you look to politics for redemption from the problem of vulnerability itself,
11:33 you're asking politics to solve a religious problem.
11:36 And then you turn your religious leaders into gods.
11:39 And you don't want to do that, because they aren't.
11:42 And we have to put things in their proper place.
11:45 And so, there's a statement in the New Testament, I think I referred to it earlier,
11:50 about rendering unto God what is God's and unto Caesar what is Caesar's.
11:55 So, first, that says there is something that's Caesar's, right?
11:58 It's quite interesting, because you tend to think of religious thinking as totalizing.
12:03 But that makes a segregation.
12:05 It's like, no, there's secular things for secular people,
12:08 even extraordinarily powerful secular people.
12:11 But, outside of that, there's a domain of the sacred.
12:15 Well, yes or no?
12:16 Well, I would say, speaking just bluntly and prosaically,
12:19 that the domain of the deepest values is the domain of the sacred.
12:24 And I don't care if you're an atheist, rationalist, or not.
12:26 It's like, OK, fine.
12:28 You have some doubts about the nature of the reality of the summum bonum.
12:33 It's OK.
12:35 God is ineffable.
12:36 What's your point exactly?
12:38 There's no integration of the good?
12:42 Well, then how is there anything that's good exactly?
12:45 Because everything that's good partakes of what it is that's good.
12:50 And what it is that's good is the highest value.
12:52 Is it real?
12:54 What do you mean by real?
12:56 Oh, well, you're escaping the question.
12:58 No, you're presuming the answer.
13:01 You said the problem wasn't the victim, but the possibility of victimhood.
13:05 Yes, that's the problem.
13:06 That's the dawning of the self-consciousness of nakedness
13:10 that begins history in our oldest narrative, the oldest Western narrative.
13:16 We woke up to this catastrophe-- work, death, sin.
13:21 In the second story, Cain and Abel, fratricide, genocide, flood,
13:28 disintegration, the Tower of Babel, all of that crammed into those little stories.
13:32 That's our life.
13:34 And that is the problem, the problem of vulnerability itself.
13:37 What's the solution?
13:38 Non-existence. How about that? Burn everything.
13:41 Or transcend it.
13:43 And don't look to the political for the solution to that problem,
13:48 because that isn't a political issue.
13:51 That's God's issue.
13:53 That's the relationship between you and the ultimate.
13:56 Is justice a political problem?
13:59 Yes, but it's also a religious issue.
14:02 All these beauty-- beauty is a political problem, too.
14:05 When we make infrastructure projects, I'd say,
14:08 "How much should we pay attention to the aesthetics?"
14:11 Well, a lot, I think, because beauty is of incalculable value.
14:15 Look at Europe again.
14:17 The tourist industry, that's all beauty.
14:20 It's unbelievably economically valuable.
14:22 So, yes, we should attend to it politically as well,
14:25 but beauty is still a marker for the highest values.
14:28 But justice is a particular problem,
14:30 because in a society that doesn't want to decide about hierarchies,
14:35 that's nonjudgmental, then it's very hard to--
14:39 That's the ones that exclude and cancel.
14:42 Yes.
14:43 The nonjudgmental types.
14:44 Ironically.
14:45 Well, that's what happens. You throw something out.
14:47 You throw nature out with a pitchfork, right?
14:49 And she always comes washing back in.
14:52 So, yeah, nonjudgmental.
14:55 You can't walk across the street without deciding
14:57 that it's better to be on the other side of this.
14:59 That's why the chicken crossed the road, by the way.
15:01 So I actually know the answer to that.
15:03 The chicken thought the grass was greener on the other side of the road,
15:08 just like we all do all the time whenever we go anywhere at all.
15:12 Nonjudgmental.
15:13 It's like, "No, you just want me to not notice your judgments
15:16 and pretend they're not there and accept them as, like,
15:19 eternally valid for everyone all the time,
15:21 and also not to complain about that,
15:23 and to pretend that it isn't happening."
15:25 Sorry, none of that's happening.
15:28 Nonjudgmental.
15:30 Yeah, right.
15:31 Now, to be fair, people mean,
15:33 "Well, you know, I can hurt you with my inappropriate judgment,
15:38 more than I can hurt in any other way."
15:41 And so justice is a terrible-- judgment is a terrible sword,
15:46 and it divides the elect from the damned.
15:49 But that is always what we're doing.
15:50 That's always what we're doing, dividing the elect from the damned.
15:53 If we can't function without judgment, then there has to be justice.
15:58 Justice is going to happen anyway,
16:00 whether you acknowledge that it's there or not.
16:03 But we are struggling with the concept of justice now.
16:06 What's the right--
16:07 Well, we've always struggled with it.
16:09 Well, a lot of that is--
16:11 So, look, you might say, "Well, why is it the divine word
16:14 that has to be on the top of the hierarchy?"
16:17 You know, assuming that that's a--
16:18 Why is that a reasonable proposition?
16:20 Well, because we don't know the answer to the next problem.
16:24 We actually don't know.
16:25 Okay, so how do we figure that out?
16:27 Well, biologically, we figure that out by being variable in our temperament,
16:31 because what's coming might be better for someone who's open.
16:34 They might adapt to it better,
16:36 or it might be better for someone who's conscientious.
16:38 Or maybe something is coming that's really dangerous,
16:40 and so the neurotic people will live through it
16:42 because they'll hide during the calamity.
16:44 Or maybe the compassionate people will win out,
16:47 or maybe the argumentative combative types.
16:49 We don't know.
16:50 So that's why there's variability in temperament, okay?
16:52 Now, each of those variable temperaments has their arguments.
16:56 All right, so what's coming, we don't know.
16:58 And I talked to one of my relatives,
17:01 and he's a terribly dangerous person.
17:04 He invented the chip in the iPhone,
17:06 the world's first 64-bit chip.
17:08 And he's a deadly guy, man.
17:10 And he's really tough, and he's really dangerous.
17:13 And he's working on something.
17:15 He said, "It's going to be more revolutionary than the Internet."
17:18 Oh, my God.
17:19 And we said, "Well, what's going to happen five years from now?
17:23 "I can't imagine the future five years from now."
17:25 He said, "I can't imagine either. I can't even imagine a year out."
17:28 So that's where we are on the horizon of possibility.
17:31 It's like everything is transforming so rapidly,
17:33 and it's going to get faster and faster.
17:35 So what do we do about that?
17:37 Talk to each other.
17:38 We consult this diversity, right,
17:40 which is partly what the radical leftists are insisting,
17:43 but they say, "Well, it's race."
17:45 It's like, "Oh, God, no.
17:47 "No, it's not."
17:49 It is temperament, though.
17:51 So there's something that's being pushed towards.
17:54 Do we need to value diversity?
17:56 Yes, definitely, because we need all the thoughts we can get
17:59 about how the hell we're going to manage this thing that we're creating
18:03 so fast that even the people who are creating it have no idea where it's going.
18:10 Machines that can think.
18:12 Are you optimistic or pessimistic?
18:14 Yes.
18:16 Both.
18:17 Sure, both.
18:20 You know, we can do whatever we want now.
18:24 So what do we want to do?
18:26 Does that make you optimistic or pessimistic?
18:28 Both.
18:29 It's like terrified and elevated simultaneously.
18:33 And that's kind of an unbearable state in some sense.
18:36 You know, it's just too--you say you want your life to be meaningful.
18:39 It can be too much.
18:41 The spread can be so intense.
18:43 And my life's got like that.
18:45 It's so terrible and so remarkable.
18:49 And it's a lot to deal with.
18:54 But we get our act together, you know.
18:56 Men of goodwill shall prevail.
18:58 Let's hope.
18:59 Let's hope we are those men and women.
19:02 And then who knows what we can do together.
19:06 Whatever we envision, whatever we dream.
19:10 You've lightened my load, Jordan Peterson.
19:12 Thank you very much.
19:13 - You as well. Thank you. - God bless you.