Martynn is joined by GlasgowWorld writer's Graham Falk and Ben Banks to discuss Rangers, Celtic, Abredeen and Hearts.
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00:00 [MUSIC]
00:07 Hello and welcome to National World Fitbit Talk,
00:09 your nan's favorite football podcast again.
00:12 It's a show where we break down the latest results and
00:14 news from around the Scottish Premiership.
00:16 I'm your host Martin Simpson, joined this week by Ben Banks and
00:20 Graham Fulk.
00:21 And we're gonna be discussing the title race, the race for
00:25 thirds and the relegation battle in the Scottish Premiership.
00:30 So let's start off, Graham, we have got a title race on our hands.
00:35 >> Which is great, isn't it?
00:37 Like how great is that?
00:38 Like the past, what, three years have been pretty boring and
00:41 the one year was slightly more interesting.
00:43 Like we couldn't even get into the games anyway.
00:45 But yeah, massively and I think, you look at the job that Clement's done,
00:51 it's really akin to the job that you would say Angid did when he came in.
00:55 And Gerrard's kind of midseason that he had with Celtic,
01:00 there's just a momentum there where, I don't know,
01:03 I think when Rangers were, I think it was seven points clear.
01:05 I think we drew one-one with Motherwell, I feel like, during that period.
01:09 And there was a feeling that something wasn't quite right and
01:11 that Celtic really had that momentum.
01:14 You look at that this season now, and it just feels like that.
01:17 I mean, speaking, well, I'm sure we'll get into it, but
01:19 speaking to Clement yesterday, and there's a glint in his eye where he knows
01:23 he's got one up at the moment and two points clear, which there's to lose,
01:26 which is great, isn't it?
01:27 >> Yeah, what's that, nine games in all competition,
01:33 a nine-game win and run for Rangers, something like that.
01:36 Like Graham said, Ben, all the momentum is with Rangers at the moment, isn't it?
01:40 >> Yeah, definitely.
01:43 I'm sure we'll go on to talk about the Celtic game, but there's a real,
01:46 having been at Celtic and Rangers games this season,
01:49 when I was at the Celtic-Motherwell game, there was just like,
01:53 there was this just uneasy vibe about the place at Celtic Park when it was 1-0.
01:58 And I think it's the state, I know obviously the board are getting in
02:02 the neck a bit from Celtic fans, but even if you just look at it solely on the pitch,
02:05 and I know that's not where all the issues sort of stem for Celtic, but
02:09 there was a clip on social media today, I think, of a passager play 45 seconds,
02:13 a Celtic just playing 45 seconds worth of passes round the back.
02:17 And then Joe Hart just basically puts the ball out of play eventually at the end of
02:21 it and goes to the halfway line.
02:22 So those type of things just aren't seeming to happen with Rangers now.
02:27 I think it's not exactly free-flowing and pretty.
02:31 I actually think it's, if you look at the styles of play,
02:34 it's probably more, it's like a better version of Giovanni van Encor's Rangers.
02:38 And it's a bit industrious, but it's industrious, it gets results.
02:43 Now I'm not sure necessarily long-term, if you're a Rangers fan,
02:46 if you're going to be excited about it and things like that.
02:49 But at the moment, it's getting wins, and ultimately if it gets titles and
02:53 gets trophies, then it really, it doesn't really matter.
02:56 In a city where results and everything,
02:58 I suppose the style of play doesn't really matter.
03:00 Getting results, which is, I suppose the difference between the two sides of the
03:03 now, as much as Celtic haven't really lost a lot of games, they're drawing points at home.
03:08 I think draws with Kilmarnock, St Johnstone, Motherwell, and
03:11 Beat Off Hearts at home, you can't draw up for, what is that,
03:16 nine points I think at home.
03:19 You simply can't do that with Celtic.
03:23 - Maybe bold to say, but is there any sort of case for a change of manager at Celtic?
03:29 I mean, it feels like you can't get rid of a manager just because things aren't,
03:37 because things aren't, it's not disaster stations.
03:39 You look at getting Michael Beale, it was obvious he was going because things were
03:42 going really badly there.
03:44 But Celtic have got, say, what is it, six weeks, about five,
03:49 six rounds of matches until the next Old Firm Derby.
03:53 Some big matches in there.
03:55 And just the way Rangers are playing at the moment, you don't expect them to drop
04:01 too many points.
04:02 Like if there's, say, 12, 15 points on offer between now and then,
04:07 you know that Rangers are going to pick up at least 10 if it's 12 matches,
04:12 12 points on offer.
04:14 Can you say the same about Celtic realistically at the moment?
04:17 I don't know.
04:19 In terms of the game...
04:20 Yeah, sorry, on you go, Ben.
04:22 - No, I think it's one of them.
04:23 Like, obviously, the Old Firm games are so important, but it feels like even if Celtic
04:29 win both of those, like, do they necessarily...
04:32 I think they always say the cliché at the start of the season,
04:33 Old Firm games win, things like that.
04:35 But as you say, like, do Mullow go to Celtic on Sunday and get...
04:40 I mean, it's not like if Rangers were going to Mullow, Mullow said,
04:43 "Three wins in 24," they'd be like, "Rangers, two or three nothing,
04:48 job done," it'd be similar to Sunday.
04:50 There's that wee bit of nervousness about Celtic where, like, "Hmm,
04:52 if that's nil-nil after half an hour and Rangers are one on the Saturday and they're
04:57 even further behind," and that wee bit of nervousness creeps in.
05:00 So I think it is those games against the smaller teams in the league that are
05:06 killing Celtic.
05:07 - Yeah.
05:09 In terms of Rangers, Graeme, just from the match at the weekend,
05:13 obviously you were at McDiarmid Park, they're just making light work of matches
05:18 at the moment, aren't they?
05:19 Even when teams are sort of in the game, it doesn't necessarily feel like they're
05:25 really in the game.
05:26 Like, yeah, it was 1-0 for most of a long period and you kind of felt there was an
05:31 opportunity there for St. Johnston to maybe smash and grab and equalize,
05:38 but by the time the game was done, we were all...
05:41 Because 3-0 maybe wasn't a hugely fair scoreline to reflect St.
05:45 Johnston's play, but was the result actually ever really in doubt,
05:48 do you think?
05:48 - Not really.
05:50 I mean, I'll let you into a journalism secret here, Morten.
05:53 I never was worried that I was going to have to change my match report towards
05:57 the end.
05:58 I never felt like anything was going to happen.
05:59 And then I think it was John Suter almost put it in the top corner and I had a slight
06:03 moment of, "Oops," maybe, but not really.
06:06 I mean, there was a point where Jack Butland was kind of stretching and kind
06:10 of trying to keep himself warm because he was doing an out.
06:14 But I think I agree with what Ben said.
06:16 I think, you know, when you look at...
06:17 And I think there's an argument to say he's doing it further down the road as
06:22 well at Sunderland, but a lot of players in the sort of post-match over the recent
06:27 months since Clement's come in, they've asked, you know, "What's he done that's
06:31 so different?"
06:32 And this always comes back, "He's simplified it."
06:35 And I think you look at Biel, maybe overcomplicated things,
06:38 and then you look at the Rangers' players now, and like Ben said,
06:40 they're industrious.
06:41 It's kind of pragmatic almost.
06:44 It's coming across in the result as well.
06:47 Like, you're not like watching Rangers destroy teams.
06:50 They just know their job.
06:51 They just know what they're doing.
06:52 They know who's putting the cross in.
06:53 They know who should be in the box.
06:54 They know who should be linking the play.
06:56 And the old seem to know their jobs, and it's very simplified.
06:58 And look, when things are simple and things are straightforward,
07:01 you know your job, you're probably going to win games when you've got the quality
07:04 Rangers have compared to, you know, no disrespect to St.
07:07 Johnson, but the quality of St.
07:08 Johnson.
07:08 And they're putting away the teams they should be putting away.
07:11 And I think when you consider that's how they've won both old firms this season,
07:16 if they'd, I mean, if you think back to that first old firm,
07:19 old firm, sorry, when Decez was a judge who fouled the defender,
07:24 imagine if that hadn't happened and then Rangers took three points from that.
07:28 You'd be looking at like five points, and that would be even bigger.
07:33 So I think Rangers are just doing what they need to do,
07:37 and that's probably something Rangers haven't done for quite a while.
07:41 - Yeah, well, brings us nicely moving over to the Edinburgh side of things.
07:46 Rangers face Hearts this weekend at Ibrox, and I think that is going to be a
07:52 fascinating match, Ben, because another result at the weekend,
07:56 and the maroon machine just keeps on moving forwards.
08:00 - Yeah, they've done what no other sort of side outside of Glasgow has done this
08:06 season, that's string our bris, run our wins together.
08:10 I think you can only really see maybe St Mirren at the start of the season,
08:14 Kilmarnock as well, have managed that sort of consistency of getting results sort
08:19 of most weeks, even if it's a point, but Hearts are getting three points,
08:23 and there was that real sort of sense of expectation, not in an arrogant way,
08:27 but people just expected that game two or three nothing,
08:30 Hearts did eventually get the job done, and that's kind of what happened.
08:34 I thought Naismith's explanation after the game was really good.
08:37 They set up in a three at the back at home, and it kind of played into Mullow's
08:42 strengths, it was a bit more man for man, and they just sort of played around
08:46 Motherwell, and that suited Motherwell, because they funnel everything centrally,
08:49 and Mullow probably should have been ahead at half-time,
08:52 Lennon, Miller, and Jack Vale both had really good chances,
08:56 but then once Hearts went to the back four again after half-time,
09:00 outside the 10-minute spell in the second half where they were adjusting to that,
09:03 as soon as Shanklin scored the goal, there was never any doubt this was going
09:08 to be three points to Hearts, and it was really comfortable and really controlled,
09:13 and the subs off the bench as well made a massive difference.
09:15 I thought Oda and Atkinson in particular were really good off the bench,
09:19 and to have those kind of options can come on and impact a game like that,
09:23 the games that they quote-unquote should be winning, it makes all the difference,
09:27 and yeah, they're going to finish the season barring the most spectacular
09:33 collapse you've seen domestically in the third place race for quite a while,
09:37 so yeah, Saturday's going to be a real marker of where they are.
09:41 - Or a spectacular - you're nailing your colours of third to the mast there,
09:45 but a spectacular collapse from Celtic.
09:49 - Well, you get asked that post-match, you get asked that,
09:52 when do you begin looking up, and it's one of them, it's like,
09:55 it's unprecedented ground, isn't it?
09:57 I mean, if Celtic - I don't think Celtic will slip up this weekend,
10:00 fairness, but - because I think Mola Lola are probably going to be where they are
10:06 for the rest of the season, but there is that sort of wee bit,
10:10 I mean, it's not going to take a lot, I think Hearts are closer to Celtic now
10:15 than Kilmarnock are to Hearts, so it's going to be a bit of unprecedented
10:19 ground if Celtic drop any more points, and if Hearts keep winning and keep
10:23 picking up points, and when do we begin to start talking about Hearts being
10:29 potentially looking up? I still think it's a while away, Naismith was very,
10:33 very quick to shut that type of talk down, but it would be interesting if they do
10:39 manage to even get - even if they get within a few games, if it's less than 10
10:43 points, then begin to - when do you begin to start talking about it?
10:46 I don't know if Hearts would want to get that excited, but the way they're playing
10:50 now are certainly worth - why not, why not?
10:53 - You begin speaking about it if they win at Ibrox this weekend, in my opinion.
10:59 If they win at Ibrox this weekend, they've got a derby after that, a home derby
11:05 after that against Hibbs, who we will get onto in just a second, and then they've
11:10 got Celtic at home after that. These next three matches are pretty much going to
11:16 define Hearts' season, I think.
11:18 - Yeah, they're the markers.
11:20 - Yeah, yeah, it's like it's not outwith the realms of possibility that they could
11:24 get seven out of nine points, or even nine out of nine points. Well, no, to be
11:29 fair, going to Ibrox and getting a win the way Rangers are playing is maybe a
11:33 little bit - they would definitely bite your hand off for a draw in that match, I
11:37 think, but Hibbs at home and then Celtic at home after that, I think there's no
11:42 reason they shouldn't be targeting six points from that, and that's the point
11:46 where we start talking about them looking upwards and looking at second place.
11:49 We need to take a short break now, but we'll be right back.
11:52 [MUSIC]
12:07 - I don't want you to be overly critical of Hearts. I don't think this side
12:12 doesn't strike you the way the last Hearts side that finished second. You've
12:16 not got Paul Hartley and Steven Presley and Rudy Scatchel and players like that,
12:22 and Craig Gordon and goals, or what would they do? They could have Craig Gordon
12:25 and goals, sorry, but prime Craig Gordon. Craig Gordon's still a great keeper. I
12:29 don't want to take that away from him, but yeah. They kind of just - they have
12:33 Lawrence Shankland and then a very good squad of decent players around them.
12:42 - They could have ten bits of wood behind Lawrence Shankland and they would still
12:45 win most games. The way he's playing now is just - he's got that vibe about him
12:51 where people are scared of him. People are really, really scared of him.
12:56 - You've also got guys like Frankie Kent, for example. We're in no danger that
13:02 Frankie Kent's going to suddenly be snapped up by a Premier League or by - I
13:06 don't want to sound like the Rangers are going to be moving for a next season, but
13:08 he's just a really solid, confident, comfortable centre back. Having players
13:15 like that in your squad, it shows for me. It shows just having that - the word
13:22 "average" seems derogatory because he's just that slightly above average, just
13:27 that little bit better than the standard of the other centre backs like Hearts and
13:33 Hibbs and Kilmarnock. It shows how much of a difference it makes. Hearts just
13:38 seem to have players like that right through the team. Guys that are never
13:42 going to set the heather alight or be sold for four, five, six, seven million
13:47 pound, but guys that are just that bit better than their contemporaries at the
13:54 other big clubs in Scotland. I think that's making all the difference for
14:00 them. We've spoken about Hearts. Let's jump across the city to Hibbs. Let's also
14:05 speak about Aberdeen while we're at it. Two teams that cannot defend, it seems to
14:14 me. Two teams with good attacking players, but just watching the game at the
14:22 weekend, it's just a calamity of errors. Some leading to goals, some should have
14:29 led to goals. Neither of these sides, I think, is going to... Hearts have
14:37 sealed Ferds, we know that. What does success look like now for either of
14:43 these teams, guys? Because defending like that, neither of them are
14:48 going to win the Scottish Cup. It's probably an aim that both has to be a
14:53 hugely successful season if it did. I just can't see it.
14:58 They're going to need to win three games in a row and two of those games
15:03 are going to come against one of Celtic Rangers or Hearts. They're just not
15:08 defending like that. The players, the attacking options those teams have are
15:12 going to tear them to pieces.
15:15 Yeah, pretty much. You've kind of explained it very well, but it's the old adage, isn't it?
15:21 I think it's really boring when you talk about clean sheets and
15:24 how important they are because it just sounds like, I don't know, it's like the
15:27 colour brown, it's just a bit boring. The colour beige, there we go, a bit boring.
15:31 But having a steady defence is the basis of where you can build anything from.
15:36 If you're getting beat and conceiving silly goals and making silly
15:42 mistakes, it doesn't matter how many you score, you're going to concede so
15:47 many it's going to be almost completely pointless. And if you're putting in
15:50 so much effort at the top end of the pitch, then you get done by a stupid
15:53 mistake at the back. I can't even explain it, but you can imagine how it
15:59 must feel for the team when you put all that effort in. You can see sometimes
16:02 when teams have put in loads of effort in getting things in at one end and then
16:05 one mistake just kills them. I think with both the sides you've mentioned,
16:10 maybe just starting and getting some boring nil-nil draws might actually
16:13 benefit them moving forward, but I'm not going to put my money on that.
16:17 There are two clubs suffering from the same problems that have gone back years in that.
16:23 They've both churned through managers, they're both dealing with squads with
16:28 umpteen different players from loads of different managers.
16:32 I think this will be the second, if they both finish in the bottom six, which
16:35 looks more likely now if Dundee's win against Ross County. They're both
16:39 five points ahead Dundee as it stands to now. And they both are at the stage
16:46 now where it could be they're both in the bottom six together for the second
16:50 time in three seasons, which both of these sides I think have made no secret, especially
16:55 Aberdeen, that third place in European football is the absolute pinnacle with
16:59 all the money that comes with it and cup runs and things like that.
17:03 Thames have been a good cup team, never really got very far in Europe, albeit
17:07 they did get the big tie against Aston Villa this season, but outside that in the last
17:10 maybe three or four years not really had it. Aberdeen group stage football this
17:14 season did fairly well in it, probably better than Arps did in their
17:18 Europa Conference League runs, but they're not going to be back there again.
17:22 There doesn't seem to be that team, there's an opportunity there for a team to go
17:27 and become Scotland's third force, if you want to call it that, with the
17:30 riches that are on offer in Europe. Arps look more likely to do it now, but in the last
17:35 few seasons it's almost just been a game of who doesn't want it.
17:39 Aberdeen have decided, obviously the summer recruitment, I think Papi Guey
17:43 was rumoured to have 500k spent on him as a striker, where is he?
17:48 Hibs have spent a lot of money on players as well, and you can see as well
17:53 again, lots of players signed in January again, so it's two teams that need to get
17:58 to the summer again and hit the reset button, but how many times can you hit the reset button?
18:03 It feels like we've been saying this about Aberdeen for quite a wee while.
18:06 Let's just, before we move on, I don't like talking about VAR because what more is there to say?
18:14 But let's just focus in on this game as a microcosm.
18:18 If we've seen the highlights, so Niki Devlin's handball wasn't given,
18:24 I watched that replay quite a few times. Initially, I'm not convinced, I think it hit some
18:32 sort of above the t-shirt line, if you like. Seeing the replays, it clearly hits them below
18:38 the t-shirt line. He's made himself bigger, his arms, it meets every criteria to be a penalty.
18:43 VAR looks at it and doesn't give it. Then you've got the penalty to Aberdeen when David Marshall
18:50 comes out to clear the ball and like prime Tyson Fury absolutely, you know, takes Bojan Mioski
18:59 out with an impressive right haymaker. I don't think David Marshall, it wasn't intentional,
19:06 but it was reckless from the keeper and it should have been a penalty and should have been a yellow
19:12 card. The red would have been harsh because again, I don't think it was deliberate, but it was
19:15 certainly quite reckless and he has absolutely chinned Mioski in the process. So, just two
19:23 blatantly obvious calls that VAR looks at and doesn't give.
19:26 I kind of miss the days before VAR when we used to, you know, title races and relegation battles
19:33 were decided by silly refereeing decisions, pretty much the same as they are now in many ways,
19:38 aren't they? I think, I don't know, for me as a fan of football, it's killed it anyway across
19:43 all divisions. Like I hate it. Like it's really great going to see like an English Championship
19:48 game and not having to worry about anything other than, and look, I've seen silly offside
19:52 decisions given players being four or five yards onside in games that don't have VAR, but I get
19:57 over it and it's fine. Like I just live with it. Like I'd rather it be decided on human error as
20:01 opposed to like a computer that delays things for five minutes and then there's a human error
20:05 anyway. I just don't think it's like, for all the kind of fuss that was around it across every
20:12 division and especially the Scottish Premiership, I think it's got, in my head it feels like it has
20:16 more wrong than right or it's more contentious ones than right. Like, I mean, the Rangers game
20:21 yesterday, like look, both penalties in my opinion were blatant penalties, but like why did it take
20:27 so long to like, to get them? Like you could quite clearly see that like Deion Sterling had almost
20:35 his like right foot taken off by the defender. Why did A, the referee not give it? And then why did
20:39 that have to go VAR? The second one, I kind of forgot that the handball happened by the time
20:43 they went back to it. And I just think, what was it that Ang said the other week? I know he was
20:48 talking about send-ins, but he said, you know, when they asked him about the blue card idea,
20:52 which is another ludicrous idea that football's decided that might be decent. Why don't we just
20:57 have an array of different colours of cards just for a laugh and just slow the game right down?
21:01 When he said that, you know, every sport is trying to speed up and yet for some reason,
21:07 like I was just like trying to drag it down and make it like stop-start. I just don't like it.
21:13 Like they're never going to get rid of it now because they've spent too much money on it and
21:16 they've defended it too much. But like, I don't think refereeing as a whole, officiating as a
21:22 whole across the board has been very good. I don't think the video technology has helped it very much
21:25 either. So, and the two decisions that you just said before, I agree with you a hundred percent.
21:30 Just coming in there really quickly, it's worth pointing out that without VAR,
21:37 Hib's equaliser would have been chalked off because the referee puts it, the linesman puts
21:41 up a late flag for offside for a perfectly legitimate goal from Marcondes and that one
21:47 would have been chalked off. To be fair, I think the linesman only put his flag up because the
21:52 Aberdeen players kind of protested so loudly, but what are you going to do?
21:56 I think the only thing I would have to add on that is go and watch Wraith Rovers versus
22:01 Dundee on 18th Friday night and tell me that that's not a better experience than Rangers
22:06 versus St. John's on Sunday. Imagine Scott Brown's goal if you had to go and watch that after five
22:13 minutes of delays. If VAR was actually getting 99% of things right and like correcting serious errors,
22:22 at least you could make a case for it, but it's getting blatant things wrong and that's the
22:28 problem. Just we need to wrap up, we're running out of time. A big win for Livingston at the
22:32 weekend we need to mention along with defeats for Ross County and St. Johnston obviously.
22:39 Just since we're speaking about Aberdeen and Hibs, just really quickly guys, one word answers. Is
22:45 there any chance either of them could be dragged into a relegation battle? I'm going to say no
22:50 purely because Aberdeen have Bojan Majewski, Hibs have Martin Boyle and those two players alone
22:57 would save any team from a relegation battle. Ben, what do you think?
23:02 Unlikely, not possible.
23:04 Graham?
23:05 Yeah, I kind of agree with Ben on that. I think unlikely, but I do think with Majewski,
23:11 if you haven't sent it forward, that's half the issue. I know I made the point about clean sheets
23:15 before, but let's be hypocritical and say that's all about actually how many goals you score,
23:19 not how many clean sheets you get. I don't think so, but I mean Neil Warnock's not going to get
23:23 dragged into a relegation battle. If he is, he's going to win it.
23:27 I mean, I think if either of them lose, those two players I've mentioned,
23:31 then I think they're in big trouble, but I think they'll both be hoping they don't.
23:34 But that's all we've got time for this week. Thanks very much, Ben. Thanks,
23:37 Graham. We'll be back again next week.
23:39 [Music]