Chess has been around for centuries, but remains a challenging, ever-evolving game to this day. Levy Rozman a.k.a. GothamChess has been challenged to explain the game of chess to 5 different people; a novice, an intermediate, a semi-pro, a grandmaster and an AI programmer.Director: Maya DangerfieldDirector of Photography: Charlie JordanEditor: Robby MasseyHost: Levy RozmanGuest: Level 1: Riyae Park; Level 2: Jeffrey Kim; Level 3: Tani Adewumi; Level 4: Irina Krush; Level 5: Siddartha SenCreative Producer: Wendi JonassenLine Producer: Joseph BuscemiAssociate Producer: Paul Gulyas; Kameryn HamiltonProduction Manager: D. Eric MartinezProduction Coordinator: Fernando DavilaCasting Producer: Vanessa Brown; Nicholas SawyerCamera Operator: Brittany BergerGaffer: Rebecca Van Der MeulenSound Mixer: Lily Van LeeuwenProduction Assistant: Ryan CoppolaHair & Make-Up: Yev Write-MasonPost Production Supervisor: Alexa DeutschPost Production Coordinator: Ian BryantSupervising Editor: Doug LarsenAssistant Editor: Billy Ward
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TechTranscript
00:00 I'm Levi Rossman.
00:00 You might know me as Gotham Chess.
00:02 Today, I've been challenged with the task
00:04 of explaining chess in five levels of increasing difficulty.
00:07 Chess is an absolutely fascinating game.
00:10 Think of it as a language.
00:11 It's completely timeless.
00:13 It's been around for thousands of years.
00:15 It's also completely ageless.
00:16 A lot of people who are gonna watch this video
00:21 have never played chess before.
00:23 How would you explain chess to them?
00:25 - I would start off with the basics
00:27 by teaching them how to move the pieces,
00:30 like the pawns, knights, queens, bishops, kings.
00:35 - What's the goal of the whole game?
00:37 - Well, the goal of the game is trap the king
00:39 and attack it at the same time.
00:41 - Yes, so it can't run away.
00:42 - Yeah. - Exactly.
00:43 And also take all of their pieces.
00:46 For me, I would describe chess as a lot of what you said,
00:49 and also it's a mix of really quick plans, like tactics,
00:56 and then things that can take four, five, six, seven moves,
00:59 like a plan, like a strategy.
01:02 So let's practice.
01:03 In this position, I had the white pieces.
01:06 You're playing on my side.
01:07 My opponent was playing with the black pieces,
01:09 so we switched a little bit.
01:10 So if I said, "Hey, you get three moves in a row,
01:13 "can you come up with a plan?"
01:14 - I think I could.
01:16 If I have three moves in a row,
01:17 I'd probably checkmate them with rook h3, queen h4,
01:21 and then queen takes h7 checkmate.
01:23 - I'm very happy.
01:24 That's the first plan that you came up with, right?
01:25 You can bring your queen out this way, or the rook.
01:28 You can start with both, and then you come here,
01:31 and then you checkmate.
01:32 But I did say white gets three moves in a row, right?
01:36 But that's how we have to think about plans, right?
01:38 We have to think about, okay,
01:39 well, if I get a couple of moves in a row,
01:41 what would I like to accomplish?
01:43 What does my opponent want to do?
01:44 So I'm not just gonna sit here
01:46 and get checkmated, hopefully, right?
01:48 So what do you think I want to do in this position?
01:52 - I think my king is on a bad square right now,
01:56 so maybe you're trying to trade,
01:59 and then somehow get an attack on my king.
02:03 - Oh, you're saying, like, if I take this pawn,
02:05 maybe in the future I'll try to open up this diagonal.
02:08 See, that's very good vision.
02:09 There's some pieces in the way, but yes,
02:11 in chess you have to always keep an eye
02:13 on what can possibly open.
02:15 Do you know how you can tell
02:17 whether a position is closed or open?
02:18 - Usually when a position is closed,
02:21 pieces are more squished together.
02:23 - The easiest way by far to figure out
02:26 if a position is closed is how many pawns do we each have?
02:30 Right now, it's eight.
02:32 So think of it like a fence, right?
02:33 So if you and your neighbor have a full fence,
02:35 you can't really see each other.
02:36 But if there's only four pawns,
02:38 that means somebody probably knocked down
02:39 half of the fence, right?
02:40 So if we start picking up all these pawns,
02:42 then the position is more open.
02:44 So this would be a closed position.
02:46 This type of strategy would be called an attacking strategy
02:49 'cause you found a way to get your queen and rook
02:52 down this line against my king.
02:54 Before we even talk about what tactic is here,
02:58 who does it look like is winning this game?
03:00 - I think white's winning.
03:01 - Okay, why do you think so?
03:03 - Well, the black king is very exposed
03:05 into the white side of the board.
03:08 - Yes.
03:09 - And like the white king is a bit more safe.
03:11 - Yes, you're 100% right.
03:13 'Cause in chess, the two most important things
03:15 we have to think about are who has more material,
03:18 but then, like you said, who has the weaker king?
03:20 And I would say my king has gone way too far, right?
03:24 So there's a tactic here for white.
03:26 - Maybe.
03:27 Is it bishop takes pawn on e4?
03:30 - So that's like immediately you get a reward.
03:33 But I'll give you a hint.
03:34 The best way to start looking for a tactic,
03:37 always look for a check first.
03:38 Do you have a way to attack my king?
03:40 - Yes, rook h1.
03:41 - So exactly, you would give me that check.
03:43 Now, where can my king go?
03:45 Let's just try to think.
03:46 - Your king can go to king g4.
03:49 - Yes, that's my only move.
03:50 So I would go here.
03:51 Now, what else is on that diagonal?
03:54 - The rook.
03:55 - Yes, and which of your pieces can--
03:58 - The bishop.
03:59 - The bishop.
03:59 So do you know what this type of tactic is called?
04:01 - A skipper.
04:02 - Yes, well done.
04:03 And then I would take the pawn.
04:05 - And then I would take the rook.
04:06 - And then you would take the rook.
04:08 Now, the funny thing is,
04:09 you are now totally winning, right?
04:11 But as we know in chess,
04:13 maybe one day white will make a mistake in the future.
04:15 So there's no point for black to surrender here,
04:18 but this is definitely a really good start.
04:20 How long have you been playing chess?
04:24 - I played a little bit of chess growing up
04:26 against my brothers,
04:27 but ever since the Queen's Gambit show came out,
04:30 that's, I think, when I downloaded the app
04:32 and started playing against friends for fun.
04:34 - So chess is separated into three games, obviously.
04:36 You have your opening,
04:38 which is the early stage of the game.
04:39 Then we have the middle game, right?
04:40 The most confusing, mysterious side of the game,
04:43 and the end game,
04:44 where there's no pieces remaining on the board.
04:46 You have to know how to convert positions,
04:47 defend positions,
04:49 understand how to play the game
04:51 with only five pieces remaining or something like that.
04:53 So for you, what do you struggle with the most?
04:55 - Yeah, I would say I really struggle in the mid game.
04:57 I feel like I've developed most of my pieces,
04:59 try to control the center,
05:00 but at a certain point,
05:01 I'm a little bit stuck on,
05:03 okay, now what?
05:03 What do I do?
05:04 - So I'm going to look up your account.
05:07 We're gonna pick a game and we're gonna analyze it.
05:09 - Sounds good.
05:10 - In all middle games,
05:11 we have this mix of tactics,
05:13 which are immediate gain or immediate loss,
05:16 depending on if we're getting hit with a tactic
05:18 or playing one,
05:19 and strategic chess.
05:20 I just want you to tell me,
05:21 who do you think has a better position here?
05:24 And by how much?
05:25 - To me right now, it feels pretty even.
05:29 Like there's no major vulnerabilities from both sides,
05:32 but I guess the white pieces,
05:33 the pieces are a little bit more developed, I would say.
05:36 - Everything you just said is 100% accurate.
05:39 So that's one of those baseline pieces of information
05:42 that we need for the middle game.
05:43 I have the two bishops.
05:44 How can I activate one of my bishops?
05:46 You have a little plan you could actually implement
05:48 right now that would make one of your bishops
05:50 extremely strong.
05:51 You think you can find it?
05:52 - If I had to guess,
05:53 I think it would probably be this bishop.
05:55 - Yes.
05:56 You definitely want to get the bishop out,
05:57 but you don't want to move it just yet.
05:58 So how do you do that?
06:00 - I am not sure.
06:02 - This is how we unlock the intermediate level,
06:04 which is this move.
06:05 That move looks like it's disconnecting
06:07 from the whole board, right?
06:08 It's a move totally on the edge,
06:10 but nobody is going to stop your bishop
06:12 from going to that diagonal.
06:14 And then you're threatening a tactic.
06:16 You're threatening a skewer.
06:17 You would hit my queen and my rook.
06:19 Stronger piece in front, weaker piece in back,
06:21 and then you would be guaranteed to win some material.
06:23 Just like little pattern recognition in the middle game.
06:26 So for the future, you're going to have a game
06:27 where your opponent makes the same trade early, right?
06:30 They trade their dark squared bishop
06:32 and you can activate it like that.
06:33 But in this game, you focused on the center,
06:35 which was totally fine also.
06:37 - Maybe one question I have is like,
06:39 as I'm also looking at this position,
06:41 just trying to understand like, okay,
06:42 what is my opponent trying to do here?
06:44 - One thing to always monitor in every chess middle game
06:47 is does my opponent have a pawn break?
06:49 Can my opponent strike somewhere with a pawn
06:52 that would open up the board?
06:54 If you have a low risk position,
06:56 your position is just nice and comfortably better,
06:58 you don't want chaos.
06:59 - I guess maybe they would try to advance their middle pawn.
07:03 - Yes, and this move is actually very annoying for white
07:06 because not only am I now targeting things in your center,
07:10 what else have I changed just by moving this pawn?
07:13 - Now their bishop is activated.
07:14 - Yes, another thing for middle game.
07:16 So we just keep adding to that bucket of knowledge,
07:19 pawn breaks for the opponent.
07:20 And then every time something moves, like a pawn,
07:23 we have to look around what else is now opening up.
07:25 And we want to get to a situation
07:27 where you knew this move was going to happen.
07:29 And the next I'm going to come here.
07:31 And then now what can I do?
07:32 I can bring both my rooks.
07:33 And now I have no problems, right?
07:35 Now I have both knights, queen, rooks.
07:37 So we need to get to a point where we see that coming
07:40 and we're not just focusing on our own plans,
07:43 but that's not always easy.
07:44 So with pawn here, that disrupts my plan.
07:48 Because now this move fails to--
07:50 - Yeah, respond to the skewer.
07:52 - Yes, as you're trying to improve your middle game,
07:54 one question you always have to ask yourself is,
07:56 is that trade good for me?
07:58 Is it good for my opponent?
07:59 It's not checkers.
08:00 You don't have to take me and I don't have to take you.
08:03 So we can do something called keeping the tension.
08:05 We're just having a staring contest here among the pawns.
08:08 So I'm going to ask you,
08:09 do you think it's better for black to capture this pawn
08:12 or keep the tension?
08:14 Just slide the rook over and threaten to push the pawn here,
08:18 which would be a tactic and a fork.
08:21 - If I was black, I would advance the pawn
08:25 because I think knowing that black has two knights
08:28 and I have two bishops,
08:30 they would want more of a closed game.
08:31 - Yes, but before we advance, we need to prepare it, right?
08:34 'Cause you push it now, these two would win that trade.
08:38 So yeah, rookie eight is a very good move.
08:41 You used kind of like a heuristic, right?
08:44 Well, black has two knights.
08:46 So black prefers the position closed
08:48 because the side with the bishops
08:50 wants to be able to see the whole board.
08:51 Yes, exactly.
08:52 But your opponent disagreed with you and took this pawn
08:56 because that's just what intermediate players do.
08:58 They see they can take something, pawn for pawn,
09:00 what the heck, like sure.
09:01 And you did this.
09:03 Now, what does this move change in the white position?
09:07 - So that opened up the diagonal for my dark square bishop.
09:10 - Yep, here, yeah.
09:10 And what else?
09:11 What else did that move open up?
09:13 - It opened up the E file for us.
09:15 - Exactly.
09:16 So now in the snap of your fingers,
09:18 you can get your bishop out and a rook.
09:21 Two things that a move ago
09:22 were just totally blocked in by a pawn.
09:24 Exactly, so in the middle game,
09:25 trades are either good or bad for you and for your opponent.
09:30 - You know, I'm in the mid game right now,
09:31 but what do I need to do or learn
09:33 in order to take it up another level
09:35 to a more advanced player style?
09:37 - It's a lot of practice and analysis.
09:40 Really, an advanced chess player
09:42 was not born an advanced chess player.
09:44 They have probably hundreds, if not thousands,
09:47 of more games in their mind, in their past, in their history
09:51 that they've analyzed, that they've studied.
09:53 It's like any athlete.
09:54 You know, I put my weight on this foot
09:56 and so I wasn't able to hit the shot back that well.
09:58 So the next time that that happens,
10:00 I'm gonna be more prepared.
10:01 (gentle music)
10:04 - I'm wearing a black hoodie, black pants.
10:08 You definitely have more style than me today.
10:10 So in chess, people have style too.
10:12 What's your playing style?
10:13 - I would say quite aggressive.
10:15 So I really wanna win the game fast.
10:17 - So as we move up the levels today,
10:19 we wanna start introducing slightly more advanced terms.
10:22 One of them is called initiative.
10:24 What exactly does that mean to you?
10:26 - So like, if you're in a battle,
10:27 you win a certain spot, right?
10:30 A really important spot
10:31 that gives you initiative.
10:32 When you get something, right, that you want,
10:36 then it can start building up.
10:37 It can start building up to be better,
10:39 better, bigger, and bigger.
10:40 - When you find a target
10:42 and you have a way to create threats,
10:45 attacks against that target, against that goal,
10:48 but you do it without sacrificing your resources, right?
10:50 So imagine two boxers, right?
10:51 One is being pushed into a corner.
10:53 He could still win.
10:54 He could totally still win,
10:55 but for now, one side is definitely the aggressor.
10:57 - And has the initiative.
10:58 - Exactly, has the initiative.
10:59 You're a tactical, aggressive player.
11:01 You're always looking for the initiative.
11:02 Me too.
11:03 Why don't we play a Blitz game?
11:05 Good luck.
11:05 - Good luck.
11:07 Okay.
11:08 - Okay.
11:10 That's not the opening I remember you playing.
11:12 We've played in the park.
11:17 We've played online.
11:18 How many games we've played against each other?
11:20 - We've played, I think, probably like,
11:22 including over the board and online,
11:25 we've like nine, 10 games.
11:26 (upbeat music)
11:29 - Okay, so we have like, just like a regular pinch-header.
11:40 Let's see.
11:41 - This is not the Tanya I remember.
11:44 Tanya.
11:45 - It's quite slow.
11:46 - It's a very solid, you know, steady approach.
11:48 There's nothing wrong with it.
11:50 Okay.
11:53 - Let's see.
11:53 - Very balanced.
11:54 - Actually, I had this chess opening really recently
11:57 and I lost that game and it was very painful and very sad.
12:02 - He's like, black has more space.
12:06 - Would you say black has more initiative?
12:09 Not yet.
12:10 - Not yet, but considering the way I said it,
12:12 it's like you follow up with something.
12:14 So you just attack like that and then move back.
12:16 So you kind of, you have the initiative.
12:18 - The tough thing about chess is you can have
12:19 a good position, but you actually have to move pieces.
12:22 You know, like a piece of art,
12:23 you just say, oh, it's done.
12:25 - So chess is different from art.
12:26 - Chess is different from art.
12:27 Let's go here.
12:28 I'm gonna go here.
12:29 Okay, let's go here.
12:30 - Let's see.
12:32 Can't go here, just in case.
12:36 - I don't know.
12:38 Okay, I'm just gonna like take some more space from you.
12:41 - This is quite like a, just a, just a position.
12:45 - You know what, we've been talking about initiative.
12:47 I think I just gotta go for it.
12:48 I just gotta like, just gotta push all my pawns.
12:51 - That can be good, that can be bad.
12:53 - I have to deal with it at some point.
12:55 - No, you don't.
12:58 Wow.
12:59 - Just in case.
13:00 'Cause I feel like my position, it's like a fortress.
13:03 So it feels like I can do moves like rook h1.
13:06 It doesn't help my position if you don't attack,
13:10 but I think it's just good to be just stacked.
13:12 - I'm stunned.
13:13 Okay, you know what?
13:15 I'm gonna go bring more pieces to help.
13:17 - More pieces to help.
13:23 Okay.
13:24 - How are you just ignoring all my,
13:27 my whole squad is over there.
13:28 - Go on, take space.
13:32 - Wow.
13:36 I mean, I gotta go for it, right?
13:38 I feel like.
13:39 - You have to, okay.
13:41 (suspenseful music)
13:44 - I really feel like this is a nice example
14:05 of black has an initiative.
14:07 - Yeah, black definitely has an initiative.
14:08 - Black has an initiative.
14:10 But can black capitalize on this initiative?
14:12 I don't know.
14:13 The problem with having a position like this
14:21 is you feel a lot of pressure to do something.
14:23 - If I was black, I want to end the game, like right now.
14:26 - You wanna end the game right now?
14:27 - Yeah.
14:27 Okay, let's see.
14:33 What can I do?
14:33 Okay.
14:39 I'll do that.
14:40 Okay.
14:41 Try to roll up the sleeves.
14:42 - Yeah, that's the chess player's sign of focus.
14:44 - Yeah, and you roll up the sleeves.
14:47 - I guess I have to defend my pawn.
14:49 I mean, don't really want to, but fine.
14:52 - Now.
14:53 I will be annoying to you.
14:57 Take a bunch of pieces off.
15:01 Now I will take back.
15:04 - Would have been nice if you didn't, but.
15:07 - Okay, now maybe we go up.
15:10 - And I will take that pawn.
15:14 - That was all part of the plan.
15:16 It was a very greedy move of you.
15:17 - All right, let's see.
15:24 Here.
15:25 - Now I'll take a pawn.
15:27 - All right, let's see.
15:28 - What?
15:29 I'm scared.
15:34 - I'm scared.
15:35 Okay.
15:37 - Can you do that?
15:38 - Yes.
15:39 - Can you do that?
15:40 - The board looks different in this building.
15:42 (laughs)
15:44 - Are you up a pawn?
15:45 - No.
15:46 Six, six each.
15:49 We good.
15:50 - Oh, my.
15:59 (mumbles)
16:01 - Aha.
16:05 - That king of yours, just saying.
16:07 Just saying that king of yours.
16:09 - Come back.
16:09 - Come back.
16:10 I'll go forward.
16:11 - No.
16:15 - Ooh.
16:19 - Block with my rook.
16:20 - This is the tiny game in the tournament all over again.
16:24 No.
16:25 - You hit, oh.
16:26 - Ah.
16:30 - Ah.
16:31 - I almost lost on time.
16:32 - I have no idea what to do.
16:36 - Me too, by the way.
16:37 - Ah.
16:38 - Is your rook trapped, but like I can't actually take it?
16:43 That's so weird.
16:45 Check.
16:46 - Wait, what?
16:47 Okay.
16:50 (dramatic music)
16:53 - Oh, I like having more time.
16:59 That's nice.
17:00 - Think I'll take those pawns.
17:05 - Can I like go eat the other pawns?
17:18 No, I can't.
17:19 - Yay.
17:20 - Keep going.
17:22 - Whoa.
17:23 - Yes, keep going.
17:24 - No, I can stop you.
17:25 - Can you?
17:30 Wait, can you?
17:31 - Ah.
17:32 - Okay.
17:33 - Oh my gosh.
17:36 No, my bishop.
17:38 Nice game.
17:39 Oh, that was crazy.
17:40 - Generally in five levels,
17:45 level five is the ultimate master.
17:47 The person that's played the game 20, 30 years,
17:49 has the highest pedigree.
17:50 Actually, that's you in this case,
17:51 and we're still on level four,
17:53 because computers have been better than humans at chess
17:55 for like 30 years.
17:56 How has it changed the way you approach the game?
17:58 - Yeah, I mean, I think chess players
18:00 are using computers intensively all the time.
18:03 Obviously with some material odds,
18:04 it's gonna be one part of the training.
18:06 Another part of the training that I find interesting
18:08 is like, you know, to find positions from,
18:10 let's say real life tournaments.
18:11 And I've been doing that actually
18:13 from this recent tournament that's going on in Isle of Man,
18:15 playing out some of those fascinating positions
18:17 and just seeing what the computer does.
18:19 And he's like coming up with resources
18:20 that you would never think of, you know?
18:22 - Today, we've been talking a lot about how chess
18:25 is kind of a mix of tactics versus strategy.
18:27 Let's elevate that discussion.
18:29 So what is chess to you?
18:30 - Well, the way my coach explained chess to me
18:32 that really seems intuitive
18:34 is that chess is a game of time, space, and harmony.
18:38 You have one turn to get things done, right?
18:41 Obviously you try to make it as efficient as possible.
18:43 We have the saying in chess that, you know,
18:45 you lost by one tempo, by one move, space.
18:48 You know, we have a game of 64 squares, right?
18:51 So control over these 64 squares is what the game is about.
18:54 You can get control in moving up your pawns.
18:57 You can get control by winning opponent's material, right?
18:59 So obviously that's another big element
19:01 that we're fighting over.
19:03 And harmony is basically like,
19:04 you got this army of pieces, right?
19:07 Your job is to make them work well with each other,
19:09 coordinate them, and build that beautiful picture of harmony
19:11 that, you know, all chess players aim for
19:14 and are so pleased when they can finally achieve.
19:16 - So I've never thought of chess that way.
19:17 This is very interesting to me.
19:18 So of those three, what would you say is the one
19:21 that you have more mastery over than the other?
19:24 - Harmony trumps everything.
19:25 It trumps, like, you can be winning when it's not your turn
19:28 and you're like totally behind in material.
19:31 So it shows me that harmony is the end goal.
19:33 Chess is a miniature life.
19:34 - I always like to say that chess exposes
19:37 all of your flaws on the board.
19:40 - Oh yeah.
19:40 - Your training habits,
19:41 in the way you approach certain positions.
19:43 So you say you can see yourself on the chess board.
19:45 Who is Irina on the chess board?
19:47 - Yeah, well, I think Irina is a fighter.
19:49 You know, Irina is not someone who likes to give up.
19:52 Irina is someone who wants to leave everything on the board.
19:54 Right? Like every last drop, that's the idea.
19:57 How do you see yourself as a player?
19:59 - I think I like to be creative.
20:01 So I find fun in chess by learning 10 different openings,
20:05 trying different positions.
20:06 I like chaotic positions.
20:08 I like positions where I can attack.
20:10 I like positions where I'm getting attacked
20:12 and I can maybe defend and find some creative ways
20:14 to turn things around.
20:16 And I really, really struggle
20:18 when I need to sit there and just do nothing.
20:22 - So, you know, we have opposite styles, Levi.
20:24 I think our Blitz game is going to be a lot of fun.
20:27 - All right.
20:27 - If I had to guess, I'd guess you're a Kings Indian player.
20:32 - No, see, that's an opening that requires a lot of time
20:35 and practice and dedication.
20:36 And I'm, but I'll play something also still fun.
20:39 - Okay.
20:41 - The Dutch defense.
20:42 - Is that Leningrad?
20:49 - I think G6 is Leningrad.
20:50 This, I don't, I've tried to find the name.
20:52 I don't actually know the name of this one.
20:54 I guess there's also like the Stonewall, right?
20:56 You can play.
20:57 - Yeah. All right.
20:59 Let's go for the most solid move.
21:02 - That's not fun.
21:03 - We don't want double pawns.
21:04 - No, we don't.
21:06 I would have liked double pawns.
21:07 - Okay, let's complete that Bishop-Fianchetto.
21:11 (upbeat music)
21:13 - So you actually play the Dutch.
21:14 That's not just like today's surprise.
21:16 - I play like a lot of openings poorly.
21:19 That's my approach to chess.
21:20 I just play things that I think will be fun.
21:23 Then the game starts going and I'm like,
21:25 why did I play this?
21:25 I should learn real openings.
21:27 (upbeat music)
21:29 (upbeat music)
21:32 - Okay, I guess I'll...
21:57 (upbeat music)
22:00 - Yeah, this is nice and boring.
22:17 - Yeah.
22:19 - Prefer it wasn't boring.
22:20 - I think I got to do something like on the queen side here
22:26 before you get your E5 move in.
22:27 - I was debating playing A5.
22:29 - A5, yeah.
22:30 - Question is, is E5 a good move or a bad move?
22:33 There's only one way to find out, so.
22:35 - Yeah, you're gonna go for it.
22:36 All right, well, I got to take you.
22:38 (upbeat music)
22:40 - Can I take with the pawn?
22:43 Probably.
22:44 - E5 looks a little dangerous,
22:46 but I guess we can analyze that later.
22:50 All right, so what are you threatening?
22:52 At the moment, not much.
22:53 If I take on E5, it gets very boring.
22:56 I can also do something like...
22:59 Now, it's a good thing that my queen is not gonna hang
23:02 when you take my knight.
23:03 - Yes.
23:04 Oh, well, actually, it's not a good thing.
23:05 I would have preferred that it might hang,
23:08 but we only have like 90 seconds.
23:11 We have to make conversation
23:12 and also play some semi-decent moves.
23:15 - That's what streamers do, right?
23:16 Like, "Naka, I'm him."
23:17 - I do YouTube, you know?
23:19 (upbeat music)
23:22 (heart beating)
23:25 - Okay, I think we can...
23:27 - Yeah, I got to save my queen.
23:29 So we're gonna recapture like that.
23:30 - What if I do this?
23:32 - Hmm.
23:33 - What if I just don't acknowledge what you're trying to do?
23:36 - That's interesting, right?
23:37 'Cause I don't have A3.
23:38 I can play B5.
23:40 That's kind of interesting.
23:42 Yeah.
23:44 I have C6, but you can play B6.
23:51 - I can take on D6.
23:53 Looks a little boring.
23:55 Not possible.
23:57 - See, every chess player would want like
24:03 five more minutes now.
24:04 - I think this move is kind of interesting,
24:05 so we're gonna go for that.
24:07 - Okay, it's a pawn sacrifice.
24:09 - Yeah, sort of temporary.
24:11 But I'm trying to keep your rook closed.
24:12 - Yes, I take, right?
24:13 I feel like that's...
24:15 - So we're trying to get the pawn back.
24:17 I think this idea to keep talking during the game
24:19 was really good by me.
24:20 - Yes.
24:21 - I strategized before the game started.
24:23 - I play best when I have no time on the clock.
24:25 - Okay, so if I take an F7, you take with the king,
24:28 so I don't really get anywhere with that.
24:30 So I guess I gotta take this pawn.
24:32 So I was going for this position.
24:33 I kind of like it.
24:35 - Okay, I think my plan here was to go here.
24:40 - Then your C7 pawn is kind of stuck forever.
24:45 Plus I get the tempo on your rook.
24:48 Oh, Bishop D5 is always an idea too.
24:51 Oh.
24:53 Wow.
24:55 I think you got some issues here, Levi.
24:59 - You should just think for like 47 more seconds.
25:02 - Yeah?
25:03 - Then you should make your decision.
25:04 - All right.
25:05 I mean, I have some really tempting moves here.
25:11 (suspenseful music)
25:14 This was just information overload.
25:22 - Yeah.
25:23 - Just give too many possibilities and then...
25:25 - All right, all right.
25:26 It's kind of hard to decide here.
25:28 Let's try not to win the game right away.
25:34 Wow, that surprised me.
25:36 You're sacking the exchange?
25:38 All right.
25:39 - Yes, I will.
25:41 - Okay.
25:41 - Did we just go for counter play?
25:45 Maybe going for counter play was not very smart.
25:49 Maybe it was like very not smart.
25:54 - Hmm, well, okay.
25:56 So I guess we should bring the rooks in.
25:58 - This is the most fun part of the game.
26:01 When you have four seconds, you just have to...
26:03 - Very fun.
26:04 Okay, is this move like really terrible?
26:06 - Let's just do it.
26:09 (suspenseful music)
26:12 Now the game could theoretically go...
26:24 Oops, sorry.
26:25 - It's okay.
26:26 - It's no fun.
26:31 No!
26:38 - I took a really important pawn there.
26:39 - No!
26:41 And that pawn is also really important.
26:43 Why would you take both of my really important pawns?
26:46 - Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay.
26:47 - And I lost on time.
26:54 Double whammy.
26:54 - That was exciting though.
26:56 This was probably my best move of the game, right?
26:58 - And taking my rook.
26:59 - Yeah.
27:00 - Yes, yeah, B5.
27:00 - But this is the subtle stuff, Levi,
27:02 that we, you know, build the game out of.
27:04 - Yeah, but I think...
27:05 - Yeah, but it's ugly.
27:06 It's ugly.
27:07 In general, like this position, I think, is kind of ugly.
27:10 - Yes.
27:11 - You know, you're stuck with this pawn,
27:12 you're stuck with this pawn.
27:13 - But question-- - Weaker king.
27:14 - Should you play A4?
27:15 Because if you don't play A4 now, can I play A4?
27:18 - Can you play A4?
27:19 Yeah, that's a question.
27:19 I mean, okay, so like you mean
27:20 if I let you play a move like that?
27:22 I still think like you're gonna--
27:23 - I still feel like now I--
27:24 - You're gonna have like more problems.
27:26 Like even if I have like a pawn here, it's still annoying.
27:30 - But then if I start generating some--
27:32 - Some play.
27:33 Yeah, you can try.
27:34 A little trap.
27:36 - Yeah, yeah. - Do you see it?
27:36 - Yes, it is.
27:37 - Do you see it?
27:38 Do you see that, Bishop?
27:39 - This position is not fun.
27:41 - It's tough because you got some issues with the king,
27:43 some issues with the rook, with the pawns, you know?
27:45 But I think, yeah, like in terms of--
27:46 - Just exposes who you are as a person.
27:47 I just have many issues.
27:48 (laughing)
27:50 - Your move was interesting,
27:51 and it kind of posed this big decision in front of me,
27:54 right, like over here.
27:55 So I think in terms of like strategy,
27:57 this was really the key moment strategically
27:59 because I have to like make this big decision
28:01 with the pawn structure.
28:02 And so this one kind of prevented your rook
28:04 from opening up on this file.
28:05 And I keep my pressure on the queen side.
28:08 - So this is a perfect example of time, space,
28:11 and harmony all in one move.
28:13 - Yeah, that's right.
28:14 That's right, we're fighting for space.
28:16 We're fighting to not let the opponent build harmony.
28:19 - Yeah, B5 I didn't even consider.
28:20 I just thought you would either take or push or--
28:24 - But yeah, this game went more in my style.
28:26 I listened to you carefully talk about all the things
28:28 that you liked about chess, and I tried.
28:30 I was like, okay. - That's what always happens.
28:31 - Now I know what to do against it.
28:33 - That's what always happens.
28:34 - Okay, I have a personal question.
28:35 - Yeah.
28:36 - You are the eight time
28:38 United States Women's Chess Champion.
28:40 You also have the highest title
28:41 in all of chess, Grandmaster.
28:43 I'm an eternal runner-up.
28:44 Like what is the championship mentality
28:46 and how have you succeeded at it so many times?
28:48 - In terms of the Grandmaster title,
28:50 that's like, I think everyone's personal journey, right?
28:53 It can take some people longer.
28:55 I actually did it very late in my life.
28:57 I don't know, Levvi, if you know this,
28:58 but I made Grandmaster when I was 29.
29:00 Most people, if they don't do it by the time they're like 20,
29:02 they'll probably never do it.
29:04 In terms of becoming a Grandmaster,
29:06 really it's like that,
29:07 that's the time and the commitment.
29:09 I think if you're an international master like you are,
29:11 like everything is within reach.
29:12 Like you've already played chess long enough in your life.
29:15 You're close enough to that level.
29:16 There really is gonna be little things
29:18 like putting in the time, going to the best tournaments
29:20 and getting the best competition
29:22 and just maybe getting a good coach to help you as well.
29:24 So it's not too late, Levvi.
29:26 - Okay.
29:27 - We are gonna look forward
29:28 to Gotham Chess making Grandmaster.
29:30 - Yeah, then I'll retire and I don't know,
29:31 do horse racing or something.
29:33 (gentle music)
29:35 - Tell me a little bit about yourself.
29:38 Do you play chess?
29:39 - So I do play chess.
29:40 I played as a kid.
29:41 I remember learning from my grandfather
29:43 when we lived in India,
29:44 but I got recently more interested in it
29:46 when my kids started playing chess in school.
29:48 In New York, kids play chess at a very young age.
29:51 - Warms my heart.
29:51 - And it gets more and more intense
29:53 and he's playing tournaments
29:54 and I thought, let me try to keep up with him.
29:55 So then I realized that I could kind of do it
29:57 in my work as well,
29:58 because I study AI and I study computer science in general.
30:02 - What type of AI?
30:03 Are we talking chat bots?
30:04 Are we talking, I don't know the terms.
30:06 - There's all kinds.
30:07 So I try to create what I call human-oriented AI.
30:10 So I try to use AI to understand human behavior.
30:13 What makes humans decide
30:14 and make the decisions that they do.
30:16 And we thought, wouldn't it be interesting
30:17 to try to create an AI
30:18 that actually tries to play like humans
30:20 at different levels and tries to mimic their behavior?
30:23 So that's what we set out to do with Maya.
30:25 - Generally, the chessboard does not care how you feel,
30:27 I think is how AI plays, right?
30:29 It's sort of just figuring out the best move.
30:31 You're right that AI is trying to play
30:33 the best way possible.
30:34 And it's combining this evaluation function
30:35 with this search.
30:37 It's powering it with brute force.
30:39 Like it can do millions of searches a second.
30:41 I think some of the components of the evaluation function
30:43 map to some of the things humans do
30:45 when they look at a chessboard,
30:46 right, when they're thinking about their king being unsafe.
30:47 Even that emotion you described, I feel uncomfortable.
30:49 Like I feel uncomfortable whenever I've castled
30:51 and I push that G pawn or something.
30:53 But that feeling translates to some of the components
30:55 of the evaluation function that Stockfish uses.
30:58 Humans don't have this luxury of searching
31:00 millions of nodes a second.
31:01 I can't even finish one node without going,
31:03 "Oh, what about the second node?"
31:05 - As you get deeper and deeper in the tree,
31:06 it just grows and grows, expands like combinatorially.
31:08 And it starts getting very confusing.
31:09 And your evaluation starts getting less and less accurate.
31:12 You might make mistakes 'cause you might miss something.
31:14 - And less and less confident, which is an emotion
31:16 which the computer doesn't feel.
31:18 - One thing that we noticed when I was talking
31:19 with a colleague of mine, his name is Ashton Anderson.
31:21 He's a professor at University of Toronto.
31:23 He was in my lab and we both had this passion for chess.
31:25 But we realized no one had really used AI
31:29 to play like a human would play.
31:32 - I think my audience once polled 92%
31:35 are below the level of 1200.
31:37 But it's really hard to learn chess
31:39 because you don't get to experience learning content
31:43 based on people who are your level.
31:44 How did you really deduce how a 1200 will play?
31:47 - We use state-of-the-art neural networks
31:48 like AlphaZero and Lila, but we instead try to predict
31:51 what move a human would make given a board position.
31:54 These deep neural nets are kind of like black boxes.
31:56 So we've come up with interesting ways to probe at them
31:59 to get an idea of, okay, what is actually is going on
32:01 that is different about this person
32:02 or different about that person?
32:03 We had like a style vector for each person.
32:05 We can compare those, see where you defer
32:08 and try to map those back
32:10 to human understandable chess concepts
32:12 because that's the key, right?
32:13 If I just tell you, oh, they did the defer
32:15 and the third number and the fifth number,
32:16 you'll be like, what does that even mean, right?
32:18 But if I can tell you, oh, I think this person worries more
32:20 about their king's safety or sacrifices their center
32:22 at the cost of protecting their king or something like that,
32:25 some kind of trade-off, then you might be able
32:26 to understand what's going on there.
32:28 So that's what we're trying to do now
32:29 with these style vectors.
32:31 And the fun thing about having numbers representing people
32:34 is that you can add them together, you can mix them.
32:38 - With something like Maya,
32:40 do you think it's possible to develop
32:41 some sort of accurate measure?
32:43 Let's say I'm a 1200, I have an opening course.
32:45 I just wanna practice my opening.
32:47 Can I do it some way against Maya or?
32:49 - I think that's actually a good idea.
32:51 And I agree with you that it's not something
32:52 you can easily access today,
32:54 like out with the online tools
32:55 and the chess platforms that are out there.
32:57 I played the Karakhan and when I learned it,
32:58 I started getting afraid of, so when you go,
33:01 I started getting afraid of--
33:02 - Yeah, the advance.
33:03 - The advance.
33:04 And even more so, at some point when I,
33:07 like I always like to get my wish about it
33:09 'cause I feel very uncomfortable if I don't.
33:10 And then eventually something happens.
33:12 This pawn making its way over here used to scare me.
33:15 And I never experienced this in any,
33:17 looking at the openings in practice,
33:18 because I would not know what to do.
33:20 I would take it, I would get in trouble.
33:22 And even if I let them take, I would--
33:24 - Yeah, you'd have to move your king.
33:25 - Move my king.
33:25 And so I remember hitting all these variations
33:28 that just scared me.
33:30 - Pawn to E5 on the third move is the most challenging move
33:33 against the Karakhan.
33:33 It restricts the knight and the main line,
33:36 so the move is bringing out the bishop
33:38 so you don't get locked.
33:39 I play that move, but the move that I also added
33:43 to my toolbox and is the only move I teach now
33:45 is this move, to try to undermine the center.
33:50 It's not commonly played at the highest level.
33:52 If you study master games, this is probably one
33:54 in every six games or something,
33:55 compared to, right, so now we go down
33:57 a totally different path.
33:58 We're taking a totally different train to our destination.
34:01 But just this undermining of the position,
34:04 splitting up these pawns and then slowly capturing them both,
34:07 that does wonders at intermediate and early advanced level.
34:11 This move, despite it being move three,
34:13 according to databases, already gives black
34:15 like a 53% chance of winning, which is crazy,
34:17 because normally white is about 52%.
34:20 White just doesn't know what to do.
34:21 - Is that like, empirically, though,
34:23 based on the games that people are playing?
34:24 - Yeah, like I would say.
34:25 - Is the stock for Cheval like weaker for black here?
34:28 - Computer, after like 12, 13 moves, says white is better.
34:32 - White is better, okay.
34:32 - But what does that really mean?
34:34 - Right, in practice.
34:35 - In practice, yeah.
34:36 Even in grandmaster level chess,
34:37 okay, move 13, white is better,
34:39 and move 20, black is equal.
34:40 - I love this because this is an example
34:42 of the kind of advice, as you said,
34:44 in the intermediate and advanced level
34:46 that could be appropriate, because you're thinking
34:48 about the human opponent that you're playing.
34:50 And maybe you wouldn't recommend this
34:51 at the highest, highest level.
34:52 But in that range, I think it could very well
34:55 be very good advice.
34:56 And as they get more comfortable with it
34:58 and understand it, your students,
34:59 at some point, they might realize,
35:00 you know what, I've progressed to a point
35:01 where I don't wanna play that anymore.
35:02 It'll change.
35:03 But for a good part of time,
35:04 it could be very useful for them.
35:07 - In 1997, Kasparov lost to D-Blue.
35:10 We can say, for about 26 years now,
35:13 AI has been better than humans in chess.
35:16 But where do we go from here?
35:17 - Thinking about chess, first of all,
35:19 I have to hand it to AlphaZero and Lila
35:21 and these other engines, because I think
35:23 they have sometimes given us interesting ideas.
35:25 They've shown sparks of creativity
35:27 that have inspired the way humans play.
35:29 But I agree with you that right now,
35:31 you look at the TCEC competitions,
35:33 and they're just getting better and better
35:34 and a little bit better, a little bit better,
35:35 a little bit more data, maybe a deeper neural network.
35:38 And these advances, I don't find that interesting.
35:41 I'm more interested in trying to get better and better
35:45 at creating human-like presence and human-like avatars
35:50 when it comes to chess or when it comes to other games.
35:51 So I feel like within five years,
35:54 we'll probably have a lot of human-like entities
35:57 that we can interact in in virtual settings,
35:59 not just because of the rise of large language models
36:02 and the ability to converse and speak
36:04 and produce text like humans,
36:05 but hopefully the ability to produce actions like humans too.
36:09 - I hope you enjoyed this episode of "Five Levels."
36:11 And before you go, I just want to say
36:13 that it's probably one of the most unique episodes
36:15 because our ages did not go up
36:18 from low age to a higher age.
36:20 Chess doesn't really care about any of that.
36:22 Just give it a try.
36:23 It is ever-evolving, and the learning journey
36:26 is really never over when you play chess.
36:28 (bright music)
36:31 [MUSIC]