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00:00 We are now able to bring you some live pictures of the UN General Assembly.
00:06 We mentioned earlier they are preparing to vote on that Israel-Palestinian crisis very soon.
00:14 That vote on a non-binding resolution calling for a humanitarian truce.
00:21 And it is Jordan that has proposed the resolution in the name of 22 Arab countries.
00:30 Well, our guest this evening is Jossie Meckleberg,
00:36 who is an Associate Fellow with the Middle East and North Africa Programme at Chatham House Think Tank in London.
00:47 He's here to give us his thoughts on the Middle East, the Israel-Hamas war in the moment.
00:55 Thank you so much for your time, Mr Meckleberg.
00:59 Maybe we could start by asking, first of all, do you think Israel can defeat Hamas?
01:10 Good evening. It depends how you define defeat.
01:14 If they can militarily hit Hamas very badly, reduce its military capabilities, yes, it can.
01:24 Its military is superior to Hamas and it can reduce its capabilities considerably.
01:31 Can it hit it politically?
01:33 Actually, by hitting so many civilians, it might achieve actually the opposite.
01:39 The question is also if it can also defeat ideology.
01:44 And ideology you can defeat only by presenting an alternative ideology that is more attractive.
01:51 And for this you need a political solution.
01:54 So I think it depends how Israel is approaching it.
01:57 The military approach, the political one, but also how you deprive Hamas of its support among the people
02:05 because there is no peace between Israel and Palestine because they live under occupation.
02:11 And more and more people are asking the question.
02:16 Joe Biden was very clear when he spoke to Netanyahu.
02:19 He said it's one thing even if you do manage to militarily oust Hamas from Gaza.
02:27 What is the plan for the next step? What will replace it?
02:32 And the options seem all very complicated and not likely to succeed.
02:42 Could you run us through what might happen if Hamas leave Gaza?
02:46 First of all, there has been general neglect of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict
02:50 because people fell into this illusion that there is some status quo.
02:54 There was never status quo because the situation has been deteriorating for a long time.
02:59 And it was unsustainable.
03:01 Not the occupation, not the blockade in Gaza.
03:04 And it created a sense of despair.
03:07 Of course, what Hamas did in the worst possible way,
03:12 they committed atrocity that actually changed all the equation in the relation between the Israelis and Palestinians.
03:19 And as a result came this military response.
03:23 But the military response itself is not the answer.
03:27 It might be a reaction and try to remove Hamas from being part of the political scene in the region.
03:36 But at the same time, the lack of planning, that's exactly the point.
03:40 The lack of plan, how to move away from the conflict to think about how you go back
03:46 to ensuring that the political rights of everyone, the human rights of everyone, the civil rights of everyone,
03:52 the idea that self-determination for Palestinians should stay on the agenda,
03:56 not something that is pushed aside and the idea of two-state solution is a mantra.
04:01 But no one actually diplomatically for years now invested neither the political nor the energy
04:09 in putting together a plan that can move away with the situation that prevailed until the 7th of October.
04:17 But in terms of who would administer Gaza, I think the Israelis would say,
04:23 well, you know, the Israeli military and the settlers pulled out in 2005.
04:29 And yes, they have maintained a very strict blockade with the Egyptians
04:34 and they have controlled who goes in and out of Gaza through the sea and through the border there.
04:41 But in terms of administering the Gaza Strip, who will do it once Hamas have gone?
04:51 And very many people outside wonder why it was that life was so bad under Hamas.
05:00 Why did they not manage to make any kind of success of running the Gaza Strip,
05:08 even though, of course, there were very many restrictions put on what they could do?
05:15 If we're gazing into the future beyond the war, so no one really wants to administer Gaza.
05:24 The Israelis left there in 2005, but we're in complete control.
05:28 So there's occupation from the outside, unlike the West Bank that is occupation from the inside.
05:33 Egypt wouldn't like to go back there.
05:36 And if the natural replacement for Hamas is the PA, they can come on the back of the Israeli tanks.
05:43 And then the Palestinians will see them as actually collaborated,
05:48 the Gazan people as collaborators with the Israelis.
05:53 So what remains is actually to build gradually an administration there,
05:58 through an international mechanism that will run it in the aftermath of the war.
06:04 Again, we're all assuming here that Hamas is going to be defeated and will be out of Gaza,
06:09 which we can't be absolutely sure about it.
06:12 But if this is the case, the United Nations should be.
06:15 Let's not forget there is UNRWA, which is a UN agency that is in charge of the Palestinian refugees,
06:21 that has almost some sort of governing power because it is with education, it is with health, it is with shelter.
06:29 So to use this mechanism and gradually moving into that there will be a political governance led by the Palestinians.
06:36 One of the conditions for that is-
06:38 But who? Who?
06:39 All the elections, for instance, that will provide legitimacy to whoever governs them.
06:45 Okay, well thank you very much, Mr Meckelberg.
06:48 I really appreciate you taking time to talk to us on a Friday night.
06:52 Thanks very much. Yossi Meckelberg speaking to us from London.