Deadline- White House 9_30_2023 - BREAKING NEWS Today Sep 30, 2023
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00:00 - Is that who this is?
00:02 You wouldn't be a choice of mine either,
00:04 to be honest with you.
00:05 I hope you're not insulted.
00:06 I would not, under any circumstances,
00:09 have any interest in you.
00:11 - And when you're a star, they let you do it.
00:13 You can do anything.
00:14 Grab them by the (beep)
00:16 you can do anything.
00:17 That's what you said, correct?
00:18 - Well, historically, that's true with stars.
00:20 - It's true with stars that they can grab women
00:22 by the (beep)
00:23 - That's what, if you look over the last million years,
00:26 I guess that's been largely true.
00:28 Not always, but largely true.
00:30 Unfortunately or fortunately.
00:33 - Or fortunately.
00:38 Hi everyone, it's five o'clock in New York.
00:40 So that's what happened, right?
00:43 That's what happened one of the last times
00:45 Donald Trump testified in a civil case against himself.
00:49 Un-bleeping mitigated disaster.
00:53 A bleep show, legally, financially.
00:56 And fortunately or unfortunately, reputationally too.
01:00 And now it's quite possible that he will do that
01:03 all over again in the trial against his company
01:06 that starts Monday.
01:07 With that in mind, Trump is one of the 28 witnesses
01:09 the New York Attorney General's office intends to call
01:12 in that trial.
01:13 Again, starts Monday.
01:15 It marks the first government action
01:17 against the ex-president to go to trial.
01:19 This is the civil lawsuit brought by New York AG
01:21 Letitia James against the ex-president and his businesses
01:25 for inflating the value of his assets
01:27 to get favorable loans and deals.
01:29 What is interesting about this case is that
01:32 before the trial has even started,
01:33 the judge has already ruled that it was terrible news.
01:37 Again, unmitigated legal disaster for one Donald J. Trump.
01:42 In responding to summary judgment motions,
01:46 Judge Ngoron earlier this week ruled that Trump
01:49 and his company committed repeated acts of fraud
01:53 for many years in a blistering ruling.
01:56 The judge described Trump's practices as being in a quote,
01:59 fantasy world, not the real world and stated quote,
02:03 "The defenses Trump attempts to articulate
02:06 "in his sworn deposition are wholly without basis
02:09 "in law or fact."
02:11 Meaning the judge felt a trial was not even needed
02:15 to decide or find whether or not Trump was liable for fraud.
02:19 That's established, that part is over.
02:21 And now the ex-president could lose control
02:23 over some of his properties, including Trump Tower
02:28 here in Midtown Manhattan, as Trump would say,
02:30 fortunately or unfortunately.
02:32 Just yesterday, an appeals court rejected Trump's efforts
02:35 to delay the trial, so it will start Monday as scheduled.
02:39 As for what happens next, New York Times tells us this,
02:41 quote, "With Trump's liability for fraud largely resolved,
02:45 "the trial, which would be decided by Justice Ngoron himself
02:48 "rather than a jury, would resolve other aspects
02:51 "of the case, most notably whether Trump and his company
02:55 "will face a financial penalty.
02:57 "Ms. James is seeking to recover $250 million
03:02 "in ill-gotten gains.
03:03 "Trump denies all wrongdoing."
03:06 The upcoming trial set to start Monday
03:08 over Donald Trump's fraudulent business practices
03:11 is where we start the hour
03:13 with some of our favorite reporters and friends.
03:15 New York Times investigative reporter, Suzanne Craig,
03:17 is back with us.
03:19 Also joining us, Bloomberg Opinion
03:21 senior executive editor, our friend, Tim O'Brien.
03:23 Tim and Sue have been covering Trump's finances
03:26 for many years.
03:27 They have probably forgotten more than I will ever know.
03:29 Former top DOJ prosecutor, Andrew Weissman, is with us,
03:32 and former acting assistant attorney general
03:35 for national security, Mary McCord, is back with us.
03:38 Lucky for us, they are all MSNBC contributors.
03:40 Sue, I start with you.
03:42 So you weren't here when the judge was reacting.
03:44 I spoke to your colleague
03:46 when this really bombshell ruling came down.
03:49 I guess bombshell for me,
03:50 maybe it wasn't surprising for you.
03:52 But now we're heading into a trial on Monday
03:55 with the question of fraud settled,
03:56 but these other big questions with a big impact on Trump
04:00 and his businesses very much on the line.
04:03 What are you watching for?
04:04 - Well, I have to think, when I think about this now,
04:08 I just think, you know, they're saying it's all over,
04:10 but the shouting,
04:11 and I think that that's what's now gonna happen.
04:13 There's just gonna be a large back and forth in court.
04:17 There's some fraud counts that still have to,
04:20 you know, that will be heard at trial,
04:21 but the main thing is going to be exactly
04:24 what the penalty is.
04:26 And it's not gonna be, I can kind of feel it,
04:29 I hate making predictions,
04:30 but on the low side, given the main count,
04:32 which was fraud, has already been decided.
04:35 The judge has said, "I don't even need to hear that.
04:37 "I've already made a decision,
04:39 "and here's my ruling, and you're liable."
04:41 So I think that that is gonna be, you know,
04:45 there's just gonna be a lot of argument about that,
04:48 and I think a lot of angry people
04:51 coming off from Trump's side,
04:53 saying how, you know, unfairly treated they were,
04:55 certainly something we've heard all of Trump's life,
04:58 that he's the victim and that this isn't fair.
05:01 It's interesting, of all the witnesses
05:03 on the attorney general's list,
05:06 Trump is the second to last witness,
05:09 and then the last witness is a banker who will come in
05:11 who's an expert on disgorgement,
05:13 and we'll talk about what he thinks
05:15 potentially could be the penalty.
05:17 But the one thing that I'm watching for,
05:19 and we still don't have a lot of details on it,
05:22 we know that a receiver has been put over this,
05:25 but just how exactly that is going to play out.
05:28 You know, the receiver now,
05:30 their job is gonna be to be a steward of that,
05:32 because some of these properties
05:34 could end up being sold to pay for any penalty
05:37 that comes at the end of this.
05:38 But a lot of the, some of the entities that are involved,
05:41 properties outside of the state,
05:43 and we just, we don't even know if, for example,
05:46 Trump, while this is going on,
05:48 can pull out distributions from the properties.
05:51 I think we're gonna get more color as this goes on,
05:54 both from the judge in terms of orders
05:56 and potentially at hearings to do with this issue.
06:00 So those are kind of the things that I'm watching for.
06:02 You know, I'm hoping to be in court on Monday
06:04 with opening arguments, I would imagine happening.
06:07 - We hope you're there too.
06:09 Tim O'Brien, to Suzanne's comment,
06:13 these are the witnesses expected to be called
06:16 in the fraud trial, Donald Trump, Eric Trump,
06:18 Donald Trump Jr., Ivanka Trump, Michael Cohen,
06:21 Alan Weisselberg, Alan Garten of the Trump Org,
06:24 Eric Brunette of the Trump Org.
06:27 What do you, what do you know about that list
06:31 that we should be prepared to be watching for
06:34 as this gets underway?
06:37 - Well, to, you know, to tee off of your intro
06:39 from the E. Jean Carroll debacle,
06:42 the fact that three Trumps are on that list
06:45 is bad news for the defense
06:47 because Donald Trump is a lawyer's worst nightmare
06:50 under deposition.
06:51 He is prone to show off, to exaggerate, to get combative.
06:56 He does everything a lawyer doesn't want someone to do
06:59 during a deposition, and now he's probably gonna do
07:01 the same thing in a courtroom.
07:04 Eric and Don Jr. have shown themselves routinely
07:09 to be sort of unrestrained buffoons around a lot of this.
07:13 On last Thursday, when the judge issued the ruling
07:18 and had specifics about the overvaluation
07:21 of certain properties, you know, Eric took it upon himself
07:25 to go on Twitter and inflate the value of Mar-a-Lago
07:29 in a social media post, doing exactly the very thing
07:33 that this case is about, that the Trumps routinely inflate
07:36 the value of their properties to get loans
07:38 they may not otherwise be able to get.
07:40 So I think, you know, I think that the court testimony
07:44 is a really interesting wild card in all of this
07:47 because I think a prosecutor at the top of his or her game
07:52 who is questioning this trio under oath
07:57 can do a lot of harm to all three of them
08:00 because they're not sophisticated,
08:02 they're not disciplined, and they're not very intelligent.
08:05 I think the other interesting thing looming
08:07 all over all of this is this case comes out
08:10 of the Martin Act.
08:11 It gives the New York State Attorney General
08:13 enormous power to essentially prosecute financial crime
08:18 in a very individualistic and empowered way.
08:23 I think there can be real problems with that
08:25 because juries often aren't involved.
08:28 It usually involves also damage to the public.
08:32 It was invented in the 1920s, it was passed in the 1920s
08:36 to go after security firms
08:37 who had defrauded average investors.
08:39 In this case, the issue, and I think it'll inform
08:43 how damages are assessed, is whether the banks were damaged.
08:46 You know, there's no allegation yet, I think,
08:49 that the public was broadly damaged.
08:51 And I think, you know, the banks were sophisticated players.
08:56 I don't think they necessarily always took the paperwork
08:59 Donald Trump handed them and believed it
09:02 and gave him a loan solely on his own protestations
09:07 or on his own evidence.
09:08 So that's gonna inform where the judge lands on damages,
09:14 but as Sue pointed out,
09:16 the judges already said fraud occurred.
09:18 And the damages also, I think,
09:20 will be an ancillary thing ultimately anyway
09:23 because what really matters here
09:24 is that he's gonna be put out of business
09:26 in the state of New York at the end of this
09:29 if he's found guilty
09:30 and they don't have a successful appeal.
09:32 And most of his wealth is tied up
09:34 in a small handful of buildings in New York,
09:37 as well as his family's historical legacy
09:40 as business people here.
09:41 And I think that's a fait accompli at this point.
09:44 - Wow, I mean, most of his wealth
09:46 and all of his image, Andrew Weissman.
09:49 You know, I played the E. Jean Carroll depo
09:52 for a couple of reasons,
09:54 and none of them were to re-humiliate him.
09:56 He does that pretty well himself.
09:58 But that was about rape and sexual assault.
10:01 And what he says in that depo is,
10:04 yes, you can sexually assault women
10:07 by grabbing them between their legs.
10:11 Historically, that's been the case for one million years.
10:14 I feel like we should get him a history of time
10:18 kind of calendar piece or something
10:20 for his time references when he's being deposed.
10:24 But rape and sexual assault,
10:27 and whether anyone could do it
10:28 for a million years or 10 minutes,
10:30 was central to that case.
10:33 I think he's proven himself an extraordinary liability
10:37 around the central questions that will be asked of him.
10:41 I mean, do you think it's a foregone conclusion
10:43 that he will sit for depo?
10:45 I mean, does he have to?
10:46 Take me inside that piece of this, Andrew.
10:49 - It is not a foregone conclusion that he will testify.
10:54 If he is called by the state in their case,
11:00 remember, this is a civil case, so that can be done.
11:05 It could not be done if it was a criminal case.
11:07 He can assert the Fifth Amendment.
11:09 There, of course, are adverse inferences.
11:12 The history of this case is,
11:13 if you remember, Donald Trump had taken the Fifth,
11:17 taken the Fifth repeatedly, and then agreed to testify
11:20 so that there wouldn't be that adverse inference,
11:23 because in a civil case,
11:24 if you have that adverse inference, it's game over.
11:27 He's still lost.
11:28 And I do think it's worth repeating something,
11:31 just to make sure everyone understands
11:32 what Sue and Tim are talking about,
11:34 which is the game is over in the sense that he has lost.
11:39 The judge has ruled against him.
11:41 Unless on appeal, that gets reversed.
11:43 The major financial hit, the hit to his reputation,
11:48 all of that is in the judge's ruling,
11:50 finding fraud, appointing a receiver,
11:53 continuing the monitorship of a former federal judge
11:57 overseeing his business.
11:58 This is really, this is kind of small potatoes.
12:02 I mean, it sounds like a lot of money, and of course it is,
12:05 but it's not anything compared to the ruling
12:08 the judge had with respect to his New York businesses.
12:11 The issue is really about disgorgement
12:14 of up to approximately $250 million.
12:17 If Trump testifies, I think it is going to be
12:21 the proverbial bloodbath.
12:23 It's the reason he didn't come in and talk to us
12:25 in the Mueller case.
12:26 It's the reason he didn't testify at trial
12:30 in the E. Jean Carroll case.
12:33 Just take one example, an easy cross,
12:36 is tell me the square footage
12:39 of your apartment in Trump Tower.
12:41 Right?
12:42 I mean, that is just black and white,
12:45 and that can be done over and over again.
12:47 Same thing for Eric Trump.
12:50 Eric Trump, how's he gonna have anything
12:52 to say that's relevant when he is under oath
12:55 saying that he did not have any real role in this company
12:59 in spite of his title and position?
13:02 Well, how's he gonna offer any evidence
13:04 that would be even remotely relevant then?
13:08 He's sort of in a trick box if he was going to try
13:10 to defend the Trump organization and say,
13:14 "No, no, no, everything was above board."
13:16 Well, that's gonna conflict with his prior testimony.
13:19 So this is one where it's hard to see,
13:22 although this would be the most interesting
13:24 and exciting thing if it happens,
13:27 I do think that this will be largely a battle of experts,
13:31 but on an issue that is really not that central.
13:34 The real central issue was the judge's ruling.
13:37 - What's interesting, and again, I keep saying,
13:40 we're gonna have to develop a bunch of psychologists.
13:44 So say Trump doesn't testify,
13:46 he will be watching how his adult children testify.
13:49 Ivanka is also on the witness list,
13:52 and this is what he thinks of people
13:55 who take the Fifth in his own words, watch.
13:57 - The mob takes the Fifth.
14:01 If you're innocent, why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?
14:03 - The 2019 Statement of Financial Condition
14:06 contained false and misleading valuations and statements.
14:08 Is that correct?
14:09 - Same answer.
14:11 - You knew at the time it was finalized
14:13 that the year 2019 Statement of Financial Condition
14:15 contained false and misleading statements.
14:17 Is that correct?
14:18 - Same answer.
14:19 - So Mary McCord, that's him taking the Fifth.
14:22 Again, it's his right, but according to Trump,
14:25 quote, "The mob takes the Fifth.
14:27 "If you're innocent, why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?"
14:29 And I wonder whether he testifies or not.
14:33 Three of his adult children are also on this witness list,
14:37 and daddy will be watching.
14:40 - Yeah, and you know, I'm sure daddy was watching as well
14:42 when he saw their depositions
14:45 that were taken by the House Select Committee,
14:46 some of which were played
14:48 in the publicized national televised hearings last year.
14:54 Was it last year?
14:54 I feel like everything has been so many years.
14:56 - It's a time warp.
14:57 (laughing)
14:59 - And we do see some fallout from that.
15:03 Now, part of that might be,
15:05 especially like between Donald Trump and Ivanka Trump,
15:08 because you barely hear anything
15:10 about her or her husband anymore.
15:12 They've kind of stepped away,
15:13 and I don't know whether that was more their part
15:16 or more his part or mutual, right?
15:18 So this could have not only a serious impact
15:23 on the remaining counts that are left in this trial
15:26 and the ultimate judgment in terms of financial damages
15:29 or disgorgement, as the technical term is,
15:32 but it could also continue
15:33 to cause other inter-family issues.
15:37 That no doubt will arise again
15:39 as Mr. Trump goes through the four trials that await him
15:43 and during his campaign,
15:46 it's things he's gonna get questioned about.
15:49 - So Andrew mentioned the apartment,
15:52 and I'm glad the apartment is part of this,
15:54 because there are some aspects to financial fraud
15:56 that are hard to follow,
15:58 and there are some that are really, really easy.
16:00 This one is about how big his house is.
16:03 This is from the judge's ruling, quote,
16:04 "In opposition, defendants absurdly suggest that, quote,
16:08 "the calculation of square footage is a subjective process
16:12 "that could lead to different results or opinions
16:15 "based on the method employed to conduct the calculation."
16:18 Well, yes, perhaps if the area is round or oddly shaped,
16:22 it is possible measurements of square footage
16:25 could come to slightly differing results due to user error,
16:29 but good faith measurements could vary
16:31 by as much as 10% to 20%, not 200.
16:35 A discrepancy of this order of magnitude
16:37 by a real estate developer
16:39 sizing up his own living space of decades
16:42 can only be considered fraud.
16:46 This is like the big, fat bottom line for me,
16:49 that any person who's ever rented anything in New York City
16:54 can actually check the listing, right?
16:58 You bring, I still bring a tape measure, right?
17:00 - You got a measuring tape, right?
17:01 - Right, I mean, these are lies.
17:03 He benefits from the lies that are confusing, right?
17:06 You know, "Oh, Russia, if you're listening,
17:08 "I wasn't colluding, blah, blah, blah."
17:10 This one, you can solve with a tape measure,
17:12 and this judge has called the ultimate BS on Donald Trump.
17:16 - Well, I'm so glad you asked me about the apartment
17:21 because I went down to hear the arguments
17:26 for the motion for summary judgment
17:27 that led to this finding of fraud.
17:30 And in the middle of it,
17:31 one of Donald Trump's lawyers stood up
17:34 on the apartment issue and said,
17:36 "Okay, on that one, we made a mistake.
17:39 "It's 10,000 square feet."
17:41 So even they know on that one that it's,
17:46 it wasn't 30,000 square.
17:48 There was a lot of laughter in the courtroom
17:51 when that happened.
17:51 So even they're giving up the goat on,
17:53 the ghost on that one.
17:54 So yeah, yeah, that's one.
17:56 But on the other ones, I just was imagining,
17:59 and listening to Tim about,
18:01 Donald Trump's known for being this wild card
18:05 and he's gotten himself into trouble with depositions.
18:07 And I'm imagining him, if he does take the stand,
18:10 in the deposition that he gave in this case,
18:13 he was calling his properties the Mona Lisas.
18:16 He was saying that they are in some cases priceless.
18:19 I mean, I can just see him taking the stand
18:21 at this point thinking he has nothing to lose
18:24 and just using it as a political platform.
18:27 I don't have any predictions on whether he's going to.
18:30 I think any sane lawyer would probably advise him
18:33 to take the fifth.
18:35 But I can see him wanting to use it as a platform
18:38 so that he can be heard by his base and others
18:42 that he is once again a victim.
18:44 He is being persecuted by the system
18:49 and this is how it's playing out.
18:51 So I can see it kind of him wanting to.
18:54 I hope he's getting better legal advice,
18:56 but I can see it coming down to that.
18:58 And his deposition was wild,
19:00 the statements he was making, not just about valuations,
19:04 but about he saved the world from nuclear holocaust
19:06 and all these other things.
19:08 - Yeah, and I think he also alluded
19:09 to how much the Saudis would pay him.
19:11 I mean, that, to be clear, has nothing to do
19:14 with how much any unit in Trump Tower is worth.
19:17 The two totally separate proof points.
19:20 All right, I need you all to stick around.
19:22 - No, and keep in mind, he also,
19:23 he doesn't own Trump Tower.
19:24 He owns the commercial space of Trump Tower.
19:27 There's always these things that are,
19:29 these legends that he, you know,
19:30 because he says them over and over,
19:31 they at a certain point become fact,
19:33 but he doesn't even own all of Trump Tower.
19:35 He owns his apartment and he owns the retail space.
19:38 - It's important- - Or the land underneath.
19:40 - Right, and it is important to point out
19:42 that he's been telling lies about his wealth
19:45 a lot longer than he's been telling lies about losing.
19:48 So that is a really good and important reminder.
19:51 We have so much more to get to with everyone.
19:52 We need all of you to stick around
19:54 ahead of Trump's fraud trial that commences Monday.
19:57 We'll turn back to the news that broke
19:58 at the top of our first hour.
20:00 The first guilty plea of a Trump co-defendant
20:02 in the Fulton County case, all that is ahead.
20:05 Later in the broadcast, the top leader
20:06 of the United States military,
20:08 the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff,
20:10 General Mark Milley, is handing over command
20:12 at a time when he finds himself the target
20:15 of death threats from the last coup
20:17 and the last commander-in-chief
20:19 of the United States of America
20:21 and when the most urgent threat facing the country.
20:23 Breaking news we started with at the top of the last hour.
20:26 That is news that Scott Hall, one of the 19 defendants
20:29 charged in Fulton County DA Fannie Willis'
20:32 criminal enterprise, that RICO election interference case
20:36 there has flipped.
20:37 He has pleaded guilty today.
20:38 It makes him the first of the defendants
20:41 to flip on the others.
20:42 Hall is a bail bondsman.
20:44 Hall was charged with felonies having to do
20:47 with the entire criminal enterprise,
20:48 but also specifically the voting system breach
20:52 in Georgia's very conservative Coffey County.
20:54 We're back with Suzanne Craig, Tim O'Brien,
20:56 Andrew Weissman, and Mary McCord.
20:58 Andrew, I wanted to ask you, Mary and I started
21:01 this conversation in the last hour.
21:03 I wanted to ask you the significance of a guilty plea
21:06 and what he may, part of one of the conditions
21:08 is that he agrees to testify truthfully.
21:11 He is tied back to Jeffrey Clark,
21:14 who was the environmental lawyer turned acting attorney
21:18 general for a few hours.
21:20 He's in the center of Donald Trump's effort
21:22 to seize voting machines and overturn his defeat.
21:25 There's reason to believe on the timeline
21:28 that Sidney Powell is tied to that executive order
21:32 to seize voting machines, first using the military
21:34 and then turning to DHS.
21:36 How important is his fully truthful testimony
21:40 to the prosecution surrounding election interference?
21:44 - This could be really important for two reasons.
21:48 One in and of itself, even though we haven't seen,
21:53 the state has seen and the judge has seen,
21:55 but we have not seen the statement that he was required
21:59 to give as part of the plea as to what he said he did.
22:04 So that could be quite significant.
22:06 And Nicole, as you correctly point out,
22:09 the Georgia indictment has him in a whole variety
22:13 of conspiratorial acts, most notably with Sidney Powell,
22:18 who was scheduled for trial within the month.
22:21 And that is sort of breaking into and accessing
22:25 the Coffey County voting machines.
22:28 And so presumably he is going to provide,
22:32 consistent with his guilty plea, key evidence about that.
22:37 I said that's sort of one aspect that's very useful.
22:40 The other is that he is the first,
22:43 and that is something that, you know, for other people,
22:48 it is useful to see somebody else doing this,
22:51 not having to bear the burden of being the first to flip.
22:56 And very often you do see sort of this,
22:59 what's called breaking of the log jam
23:01 of somebody who sort of starts cooperating
23:04 and they see that they can get a better plea deal.
23:08 You know, he only pled to misdemeanors.
23:10 He got a relatively lenient sentence,
23:15 if he adheres to his commitments.
23:20 And so it has a second sort of signaling effect
23:25 if you're the prosecutors in terms of what else
23:29 could be done for other people in the case.
23:33 So, you know, if you're the government,
23:35 you're probably hoping that there are other people
23:37 who will follow suit, who will accept responsibility
23:40 for what they did and will testify truthfully.
23:42 And the final point I'll make is,
23:44 if you remember, Alan Weisselberg was in a similar position
23:48 in the Manhattan District Attorney's case.
23:51 He's the former CFO of the Trump Organization.
23:55 He also agreed to give truthful testimony
23:58 as part of his plea.
23:59 And that truthful testimony did play out
24:02 for the DA very successfully.
24:05 The Trump Organization and a related organization
24:09 were found criminally liable for a long running tax scheme
24:14 that Alan Weisselberg provided evidence at trial
24:18 that was truthful.
24:20 So I would think at the very least,
24:22 it will have the same kind of implication
24:25 in the upcoming trial with respect to Sidney Powell.
24:28 - Mary, here's some more from that fantastic deep dive
24:32 that the Washington Post did on Mr. Hall
24:34 in this effort to break into the election equipment
24:36 in this very, very conservative red part
24:38 of the state of Georgia.
24:40 Mr. Hall urgently needed a plane.
24:42 That was his fixation in January of 2021,
24:45 according to people who spoke to him.
24:47 I only later learned that his intended destination,
24:50 rural Coffee County, Georgia,
24:52 200 miles Southeast of Atlanta,
24:54 had come into focus after a local official
24:56 involved in tabulating votes told a county board
24:59 that the voting machines could quote,
25:01 "Very easily be manipulated to shift the count."
25:05 The official promised she tallied votes correctly,
25:08 where Trump won handily, but said she believed
25:11 that not everyone operating the machines
25:12 throughout the state was as upstanding.
25:15 Trump allies came to believe that examining voting machines
25:18 in Coffee County will let them prove the devices
25:20 have vulnerabilities that could have been exploited.
25:23 He's sort of the beating heart and almost patient zero
25:27 of the effort to fabricate fraud that never existed,
25:32 not even in Coffee County,
25:34 according to Coffee County election officials.
25:37 - Yeah, you know, I mean, reflecting back,
25:41 I'm so glad you pulled up that good reporting
25:43 because I think I'd forgotten some of these details.
25:46 But again, as I had said at the top of the hour,
25:48 I mean, this is a guy who seemed to want to do something,
25:51 right, to help Mr. Trump stay in office.
25:53 And he knew a lot of people in Georgia.
25:56 He had connections and he thought,
25:58 "I can be the guy that can help to sort of break this open
26:02 with evidence of fraud."
26:04 And, you know, as you just indicated,
26:06 if there's vulnerabilities discovered
26:08 in the voting machines, even in a deep red district,
26:11 that might mean that there were vulnerabilities
26:13 in voting machines in the blue areas of the state
26:18 and which would give, you know,
26:19 Mr. Trump more of an argument.
26:21 I think what was also so revealing,
26:22 which you read at the top of the hour is,
26:26 and I had frankly forgotten about this,
26:29 is that 63-minute phone call with Jeffrey Clark.
26:32 Jeffrey Clark, the acting assistant attorney general
26:35 for civil division and for a brief period,
26:38 the acting attorney general.
26:40 And that phone call, you can just imagine
26:43 what that might've entailed about basically Scott Hall
26:46 saying, "We can get evidence," or even, "We have evidence."
26:50 And, you know, at least if you take the chronology
26:53 of Bonnie Willis's indictment
26:55 in the way she lists out her different acts,
26:59 the next thing you see is Jeffrey Clark
27:01 going to his superiors and pushing upon them
27:04 to actually put pressure on the state
27:07 to, you know, let them know that DOJ is investigating,
27:11 that DOJ has evidence of fraud,
27:13 and that the state legislature should really consider
27:16 sort of taking this back and essentially
27:20 putting forth their own slate of electors.
27:22 And so all of this fits together very neatly,
27:25 but you're right, Scott Hall is kind of an important cog.
27:28 He's a low level, but he's a very important cog
27:30 in the machinery of building up what they thought would be
27:34 or hoped would be an actual substantial case of fraud,
27:39 which of course never materialized.
27:42 - Anywhere, ever.
27:43 And he's a cog directly tied into the most senior official
27:47 of the Justice Department working on the coup from the inside.
27:51 It's just a fascinating development.
27:53 Suzanne Craig, Tim O'Brien, Andrew Weissman, Mary McCord.
27:56 Wow, thank you so much for starting us off today.
27:59 We will continue to call on all of you
28:00 as this trial gets underway.
28:02 Ahead for us, the Joint Chiefs Chairman, Mark Milley,
28:05 handing over the reins to the United States military.
28:08 And in doing so, speaking out, speaking bluntly,
28:12 offering a sharp rebuke to the once, and hopefully not,
28:16 but possible future Commander-in-Chief,
28:18 who is currently, right now, as we broadcast this show,
28:22 issuing death threats against him, Chairman Mark Milley.
28:25 That story's next.
28:26 - That all of us in uniform swear to protect and defend
28:30 against all enemies, foreign and domestic.
28:34 We don't take an oath to a tribe.
28:36 We don't take an oath to a religion.
28:39 We don't take an oath to a king or a queen
28:42 or a tyrant or a dictator.
28:45 And we don't take an oath to a wanted dictator.
28:48 We don't take an oath to an individual.
28:50 The millions wounded in our nation's wars
28:53 did not sacrifice their limbs and shed their blood
28:58 to see this great experiment of democracy
29:00 perish from this earth.
29:03 - Wow.
29:05 Wow.
29:05 So that was General Mark Milley's extraordinarily
29:09 pointed and specific farewell speech in Arlington, Virginia,
29:14 today.
29:15 Specifically, this is someone who
29:18 chooses his words carefully, who understands
29:20 the moment in which we live better than perhaps anyone
29:23 alive right now.
29:24 And Chairman Milley used this moment
29:27 to warn against, quote, "wannabe dictators."
29:31 He placed an emphasis on protecting all of us
29:34 against enemies, foreign and domestic.
29:37 Chairman Milley's tenure as chairman of the Joint Chiefs
29:39 of Staff and more than 40 years in the military
29:42 ends in the same week that he's responding
29:44 to a social media death threat.
29:47 Made by the unstable, disgraced ex-president,
29:50 under whom he served as top military advisor.
29:53 Milley swore in his successor today,
29:56 General Charles Q. Brown Jr. after an 11th hour Senate
30:01 vote last week to confirm him, with no thanks
30:04 to the MAGA Republicans and Republican Senator Tommy
30:07 Tuberville, whose ongoing hold on about 300 military
30:11 promotions nearly and embarrassingly
30:14 forced a temporary administrator to fill Milley's role
30:18 in the Pentagon's highest position.
30:20 Joining us at the table is the founder
30:22 of the Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America
30:24 and host of the Independent Americans podcast,
30:26 Paul Rykoff.
30:27 Also joining us, BBC News special US correspondent
30:31 and MSNBC contributor, Katty Kay.
30:34 I can't separate General Milley's comments
30:37 from the revelations in the Atlantic.
30:39 And when he goes on to say that Americans
30:42 who have given their lives and their limbs
30:44 did not do so to watch the demise of democracy,
30:47 it's just so pointed what is spilling out,
30:49 what has been kept in confidence.
30:53 Secrets he kept, not to keep Trump's secrets,
30:56 but perhaps to keep the military out of the Trump story
30:58 as long as possible, are now public knowledge.
31:02 Trump's disdain for wounded veterans,
31:05 Trump's disdain for those who lost
31:08 their lives serving this country is now on the public record.
31:11 - Yeah, here he comes.
31:13 And now the uniform's gonna go on the shelf
31:15 and I hope he can let the fist fly.
31:16 I think Mark Milley is a tremendous patriot.
31:19 He's the kind of leader you wanna follow, right?
31:21 You send your kids into the military,
31:23 you hope that they have a commander like Mark Milley.
31:25 And I hope he continues to lead in the public space.
31:28 I hope he runs for office.
31:29 I think that maybe he can run in Alabama
31:31 against Tommy Tuberville, that sure would be fun to watch.
31:34 But I think he embodies the integrity,
31:35 the leadership, the duty, the honor,
31:37 all the things that embody the best of our military
31:40 are in Mark Milley.
31:41 And he's also not afraid to fight.
31:42 And I think these are trying times
31:44 where he's been maybe the most important chairman
31:46 of the Joint Chiefs in modern history,
31:48 during some of the most important times.
31:49 I hope he gets out into the space
31:51 in a way retired chairmen haven't.
31:53 I think Mike Mullen's been very important.
31:55 He's picked his spots, I admire him tremendously.
31:58 I think he's been one of our most important leaders.
32:00 I think Milley needs to go even further.
32:01 And if he does that, he can be a really important weapon
32:05 in battling Trump.
32:06 - I wanna say something about him as a leader
32:08 because I think he also has this other piece
32:10 that I can't think of a single other example,
32:13 but after he appeared in Lafayette Square,
32:16 he immediately admitted the error
32:18 and sought to correct it among the people
32:20 he cared about the most.
32:21 He made a video and distributed it to the military.
32:24 - Yeah, I was one of many who was outraged by that moment.
32:26 I thought he should resign in that moment.
32:28 And I said, if he doesn't resign,
32:30 it's because he's staying inside to hold the line.
32:32 And I think in many ways,
32:33 it felt like he was working even harder
32:35 because of that mistake.
32:36 He's been very humble, he's been very open.
32:38 And you can see he felt duped and he said that.
32:41 So I think in the next couple of weeks,
32:43 I hope that he takes a good vacation
32:45 and he gets some really good security in the private sector.
32:47 And then he comes out and starts to talk about this
32:50 and maybe motivate other generals,
32:51 other retired military folks.
32:53 Somebody like Colonel Vindman, who's been so effective,
32:55 can show how they can influence people.
32:57 And I keep coming back to this,
32:58 but this election is gonna be decided by independence
33:00 in swing states.
33:01 And independence can be moved,
33:03 especially by retired generals,
33:05 especially because 50% of veterans are independents.
33:07 They listen to people like Mark Milley.
33:09 And it could be the difference
33:10 between a couple of thousand votes
33:12 in a place like Pennsylvania or a place like Florida
33:14 when the election comes.
33:16 - It seems that a message that someone like General Milley
33:21 can deliver uniquely is that this is,
33:27 it's about the moment, right?
33:29 I mean, there could be debate,
33:31 this person, likely Joe Biden against Donald Trump.
33:35 But it feels difficult to shake people out of this feeling
33:40 that we're sort of sleepwalking
33:42 toward the inevitable, right?
33:43 A battleground state and polls and red and blue
33:46 and close to it.
33:47 The country is not particularly polarized.
33:49 The conversations, our country's not.
33:51 80% of Americans would like to see something done
33:54 on gun safety.
33:56 And it's this right, left thing,
33:57 but the country's not polarized around gun safety.
34:00 70% of Americans would like to see abortion legal
34:04 in all or most instances.
34:06 Country's not divided on abortion.
34:08 That's why abortion keeps winning in Kansas,
34:10 in North Carolina, and in Ohio.
34:13 And the country is most certainly not divided
34:17 on the military deserving our respect,
34:19 particularly those who have died or been wounded.
34:21 And what General Milley knows
34:23 is that on one of the last things that truly unites
34:26 about 100% of all Americans,
34:28 that we owe a debt of gratitude to the military,
34:30 especially those who died or were wounded.
34:33 Donald Trump is a straight up disgrace.
34:36 He is an unpatriotic disgrace.
34:39 He didn't wanna be seen with Luis Avila,
34:43 who sang when Chairman Milley first got this job.
34:46 And I think the stories that he's begun to tell
34:49 could be an extraordinary kaleidoscope, if you will,
34:54 in terms of shaking or reframing some of the conversations
34:57 around Donald Trump as the Commander-in-Chief.
35:01 - Kati.
35:02 - Sorry, I didn't know that was to me, Nicole.
35:05 Yeah, I think that's right.
35:07 I mean, Mark Milley has been put,
35:08 whether he wanted it or not, in this moment in history.
35:12 We were just talking about Mike Mullen,
35:13 and Mike Mullen is another chairman, as you know,
35:16 who served two presidents with very different political
35:19 and military agendas, George W. Bush and Barack Obama.
35:23 Barack Obama, who wanted to get America out of every war.
35:26 Milley has done the same, but it's Milley
35:28 who's been in this position that he now faces death threats.
35:33 He has had to call up his Chinese counterparts
35:38 to reassure them that democracy was stable in America
35:43 and has found himself dragged into a kind of political sphere
35:46 that he probably didn't even want to get into.
35:49 And that's a very different position.
35:51 I think that gives him a unique perspective
35:53 on where we are in this moment in the United States.
35:55 Milley has been in this position
35:57 for a long time, and he's been in this position
35:59 for a long time, and he's been in this position
36:01 for a long time, and he's been in this position
36:03 for a long time, and he's been in this position
36:05 for a long time, and he's been in this position
36:07 for a long time, and he's been in this position
36:09 for a long time, and he's been in this position
36:10 for a long time, and he's been in this position
36:12 for a long time, and he's been in this position
36:14 for a long time, and he's been in this position
36:16 for a long time, and he's been in this position
36:17 for a long time, and he's been in this position
36:19 for a long time, and he's been in this position
36:20 for a long time, and he's been in this position
36:22 for a long time, and he's been in this position
36:23 for a long time, and he's been in this position
36:25 for a long time, and he's been in this position
36:26 for a long time, and he's been in this position
36:28 for a long time, and he's been in this position
36:30 for a long time, and he's been in this position
36:31 for a long time, and he's been in this position
36:33 for a long time, and he's been in this position
36:34 for a long time, and he's been in this position
36:35 for a long time, and he's been in this position
36:37 for a long time, and he's been in this position
36:38 for a long time, and he's been in this position
36:40 for a long time, and he's been in this position
36:41 for a long time, and he's been in this position
36:42 for a long time, and he's been in this position
36:44 for a long time, and he's been in this position
36:45 for a long time, and he's been in this position
36:51 for a long time, and he's been in this position
36:53 for a long time, and he's been in this position
36:55 for a long time, and he's been in this position
36:56 for a long time, and he's been in this position
36:57 for a long time, and he's been in this position
36:59 for a long time, and he's been in this position
37:00 for a long time, and he's been in this position
37:02 for a long time, and he's been in this position
37:03 for a long time, and he's been in this position
37:05 for a long time, and he's been in this position
37:06 for a long time, and he's been in this position
37:07 for a long time, and he's been in this position
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37:15 for a long time, and he's been in this position
37:16 for a long time, and he's been in this position
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37:20 for a long time, and he's been in this position
37:21 for a long time, and he's been in this position
37:22 for a long time, and he's been in this position
37:24 for a long time, and he's been in this position
37:25 for a long time, and he's been in this position
37:26 for a long time, and he's been in this position
37:27 for a long time, and he's been in this position
37:29 for a long time, and he's been in this position
37:30 for a long time, and he's been in this position
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37:55 for a long time, and he's been in this position
38:21 for a long time, and he's been in this position