This week, we’re thrilled to speak with author Nicola Dinan about her debut novel, Bellies.
It follows the relationship between young graduates Tom and Ming and how their connection fluctuates in the wake of Ming’s transition, and is being adapted for TV by the studio behind the Normal People adaptation.
We chat with Nicola about the expectation that transgender characters should be overly virtuous, and how marginalised characters should have “the freedom to be pieces of shit too.”
Catch Love Lives on Independent TV and YouTube, as well as all major social and podcast platforms.
It follows the relationship between young graduates Tom and Ming and how their connection fluctuates in the wake of Ming’s transition, and is being adapted for TV by the studio behind the Normal People adaptation.
We chat with Nicola about the expectation that transgender characters should be overly virtuous, and how marginalised characters should have “the freedom to be pieces of shit too.”
Catch Love Lives on Independent TV and YouTube, as well as all major social and podcast platforms.
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LifestyleTranscript
00:00 How do you feel about cisgendered writers
00:03 creating trans characters?
00:05 - I just like don't say no to anything like this.
00:09 I just don't think anything is off the table.
00:14 (upbeat music)
00:17 - Hello and welcome to Love Lives,
00:22 a podcast from The Independent
00:24 where I, Olivia Petter, speak to different people
00:26 about the loves of their lives.
00:28 Today, I am so excited to be speaking to Nicola Dinan,
00:32 author of one of the most highly anticipated novels
00:35 of the year, "Bellies."
00:36 There is already a TV adaptation in the works
00:39 from the same production company who made "Normal People."
00:42 So it's safe to say this book is set to be a huge hit.
00:46 So I can't wait to speak to Nicola about it.
00:48 So let's begin.
00:49 Hi, Nicola, how are you doing?
00:50 - Hi, I'm well, how are you?
00:52 - I'm good, I'm good.
00:53 So as I said in the intro,
00:55 the book has had a lot of hype already.
00:58 It's gonna have this huge kind of glossy TV adaptation.
01:02 Can you start us off by introducing the book,
01:06 how it came to you, how you started writing it?
01:09 When did you start writing it?
01:12 - So I started writing the book in August of 2020.
01:17 So it started, it was like as a lockdown project
01:20 and it had started initially as a short story.
01:25 So I think earlier that year I'd written a short story,
01:30 was sending it to literary journals,
01:32 hoping it'd be published with the view of,
01:35 oh, maybe if I publish that story and a few other stories
01:38 and I get into some big name literary journals,
01:41 hopefully then I'll feel qualified enough to write a book.
01:45 But sadly, no one wanted my short stories.
01:48 And then I came to a point where,
01:49 okay, well, I do really wanna write a book,
01:51 so what do I do now?
01:53 And so I started writing "Bellies"
01:56 because I just thought, I just should,
01:59 it's the book I want to write.
02:02 And I think there's that very rightly cliche of,
02:06 the first book you write is the book you have to write
02:08 and the second book you write is the book you want to write.
02:10 But it very much has felt that way with writing "Bellies".
02:13 So I wrote it then at the end of 2020
02:17 and got the book deal a year and a half later.
02:19 But I found that once I started writing it,
02:22 it was like the words were just coming out
02:24 and it ended up being a much quicker process
02:27 than I thought it would be, which was really nice.
02:30 - And how did, did you start with a kind of clear trajectory
02:34 of how the plot was gonna go
02:35 or did you just kind of have these two characters
02:37 in your mind and the plot kind of came out from there?
02:39 - Yeah, I had the two characters in my mind.
02:42 I knew that Ming's transition
02:45 was always going to be the centre of gravity of the book.
02:49 But as I moved on with the writing,
02:52 it became really evident that the book was much bigger
02:55 than Ming's transition and its impact
02:58 on her relationship with Tom
03:00 and the book became much more expansive.
03:03 You have this whole cast of characters
03:06 who are largely queer, largely people of colour
03:11 existing around Tom and Ming,
03:13 each going through their individual struggles.
03:15 And in that sense, this one event, Ming's transition
03:19 and its impact on her relationship with Tom sends ripples
03:23 and it becomes a lot more about a novel about relationships
03:28 and not just romantic relationships,
03:30 but the relationships we have with our parents
03:34 and our friends.
03:35 And so I didn't quite anticipate when I started Bellies
03:39 that it would speak to so much more than being trans.
03:43 - Yeah, no, I think it really does.
03:45 And I think I'm so excited to see the conversations
03:48 that it starts when it's on the big screen.
03:50 'Cause I think with books like this,
03:53 it's so important that they have that maximum visibility,
03:57 I think, to start those really important conversations.
03:59 'Cause it's so, you know, we have nothing like this really.
04:04 And it's about time that we finally have stories like this
04:06 on a kind of mainstream level.
04:10 - Talk to me a bit about what you said about the book
04:14 not being about identity.
04:15 'Cause in an interview, you kind of said that
04:17 rather than being a book about identity
04:20 and kind of, I guess, how you identify
04:23 from a gender perspective,
04:24 it's more about two young people
04:26 struggling to find their place in the world,
04:28 all while learning how to care for each other
04:30 and for those around them.
04:32 What do you mean when you say it's about that
04:35 as opposed to being about identity?
04:37 Because I think the word identity to some people,
04:41 it carries connotation.
04:43 'Cause I mean, I think that's sort of the same thing,
04:45 but to some people, I think maybe that word identity
04:47 scares people in a way,
04:50 or it makes them think it's about something
04:51 that it's necessarily not, if you see what I mean.
04:54 - Yeah, you know, I think when I said that,
04:56 it's not, it relates to what I just said about the book,
05:00 not just being about transness,
05:04 but you could substitute Ming's transition
05:08 for so many other things.
05:09 I think what's been striking now,
05:12 speaking from this present moment
05:14 where the book is sort of a week from being released
05:17 and still having had the opportunity to speak to people
05:21 who aren't trans, who aren't even queer
05:25 and are quite far away from Tom and Ming's experiences,
05:28 still finding the novel very relatable.
05:32 And I think you could substitute Ming's transition
05:35 for a whole number of events.
05:37 You could just substitute it for any form of bereavement,
05:40 particularly on Tom's end,
05:42 or any particular change in life, like moving somewhere new.
05:46 There are all these events in life
05:50 that cause a great sense of upheaval.
05:52 And so when I spoke about the novel,
05:56 not just being about identity, that's sort of what I meant.
06:01 Obviously a quest for who you are in transition
06:06 can cause big change, but so can a lot of things.
06:09 And in all of those instances,
06:11 there's always this impetus to look around you and think,
06:15 okay, well, how do I care for those going through this change
06:18 or impacted by this change?
06:20 I think that's what the novel speaks to
06:23 in addition to being trans.
06:25 That being said, I think it's really great
06:27 that the novel has a trans character
06:29 in that I get to write from the perspective
06:33 of a trans character, and I think, on the one hand,
06:38 it's not about identity, just about identity,
06:40 but people will read Ming's experience and relate to it,
06:45 and hopefully develop a more attuned sense of empathy
06:51 for trans people.
06:53 And that's something that I think we need.
06:56 There's such a, almost quite devilish portrayal
07:00 of trans people in the media.
07:03 People think we're injecting testosterone
07:06 into kids as Capri-suns or something,
07:08 and that's so insane to me.
07:10 And there's not much to counterbalance that.
07:14 And I think that there's,
07:15 we have wonderful writers like Sean Fay,
07:18 who wrote the transgender issue,
07:20 but I think fiction has an important role here too.
07:24 And I wrote the book just kind of realising
07:29 that no matter what, the book was going to be political
07:31 because of that reason, because trans people's existence,
07:35 their existence is politicised.
07:38 So naturally, I did want to make this experience
07:43 which felt so specific.
07:45 I think for someone who isn't trans,
07:47 the idea of, for some people who aren't trans,
07:49 the idea of transitioning feels like so many worlds away.
07:52 It's like, how could I even imagine myself
07:54 being in those shoes?
07:56 But I think hopefully a book like "Bellies"
07:58 just makes it feel a little bit more universal.
08:01 - Yeah, and I think what you said about popular culture
08:03 is so important, 'cause it does have such a crucial role
08:06 in terms of shaping perceptions and eliciting that empathy
08:11 in a way that is just fundamentally much harder to do
08:14 with nonfiction, I think.
08:15 And so I think it will really kind of tap into,
08:19 like you said, that kind of deeper level of understanding
08:22 and relatability, like you said,
08:26 and unexpected relatability for a cisgender person,
08:30 I think, as well.
08:31 - Yeah, I think so.
08:32 And one thing I've heard from some people
08:35 who've read the book, and this tends to be people
08:38 who are maybe slightly older
08:40 and maybe haven't encountered a trans person before,
08:44 have been told that "Bellies" taught them a lot.
08:48 And that's a very surprising thing.
08:50 It's a very scary thing, 'cause I'm like,
08:51 I didn't write a book to suddenly be someone's teacher.
08:56 I'm not like professor of trans studies at trans university.
08:59 And yet suddenly I feel this burden from having this book
09:03 that might have a meaningful impact on people.
09:06 But I do think it's something to embrace
09:07 and also something to be cautious of,
09:10 just as well as books can teach meaningfully
09:14 about experiences, they can also detract
09:18 from a meaningful perspective on certain experiences.
09:21 And I think we've had a lot of the latter
09:23 about trans people.
09:25 I just think of "Buffalo Bill" from, what's it called?
09:29 "Silence of the Lambs," that's just popping off in my head.
09:32 And I just think we've had a lot of that.
09:34 And yeah, I'm so excited to be part of a wave of fiction
09:38 that maybe tries to reverse that a little bit.
09:41 - Definitely.
09:42 And you write the book both from Tom's perspective
09:45 and from Ming's perspective.
09:47 Why do you think it was important to you
09:49 to have both of their voices in the book
09:52 and have them kind of running alongside each other?
09:53 And how do you think that helps create the depth
09:56 and the complexity of each of these characters?
09:59 - I think it's so necessary
10:00 because I think if you've read Tom's perspective
10:04 or just Ming's perspective alone,
10:08 particularly because there's a lot of conflict
10:11 between them throughout the novel,
10:13 you might read it all from Tom's perspective
10:16 and be like, wow, Ming's a dickhead.
10:18 Or you might read it all from Ming's perspective
10:21 and be like, Tom fucking sucks.
10:23 But there's this real importance for me as a writer
10:26 to present a sense of judiciousness.
10:28 And it is, I think some writers love to write books
10:32 with unreliable narratives
10:33 and not have any form of check and balance.
10:36 And that in itself is a really interesting literary trope.
10:40 But because my book is fundamentally about relationships
10:43 and fundamentally about how you can feel
10:47 like someone's done so much wrong to you,
10:49 but often the reality is that
10:51 they were just trying their best
10:53 and that they weren't intending to cause harm
10:55 or they were just doing what they needed to do
10:57 at that moment with the tools that they had.
11:00 And that is a very painful and unfair reality
11:04 that you kind of have to come to terms with
11:07 as you become an adult,
11:08 that there's not this conspiracy against you.
11:10 And that often people are just trying their best.
11:13 And I think it would have been really hard
11:15 to communicate that.
11:17 Had it just been from one of their perspectives,
11:20 you would have looked at,
11:21 I'm just thinking of, for example,
11:23 the play that Ming wrote.
11:24 So in the novel, Ming writes a play called "Thin Frames,"
11:28 which is in part based on her and Tom's relationship.
11:33 And there's sort of,
11:34 there's always a united view amongst Tom and his friends
11:38 or the friends who are closer to him
11:40 that the play was wrong and exploitative.
11:43 But I do think from Ming's perspective, you see,
11:46 okay, well, why is she such a careerist
11:50 and why is she so ruthlessly ambitious?
11:53 I think through having insight into her own perspective,
11:55 you see she's incredibly afraid to be alone.
11:58 And she's thinking, well, if I'm going to be alone,
12:02 well, I might as well have a career.
12:04 And when you understand where someone's coming from,
12:08 it builds a sense of compassion for both the characters.
12:11 I think compassion is at the core of the novel.
12:14 And so it wouldn't have really made sense for me
12:16 also to have written it in any other way.
12:19 But also, from writing the perspective of transitioning,
12:23 I think if it was just from Ming's perspective,
12:25 and I think a lot of people would just expect this book
12:28 to be by a trans character,
12:31 or rather written from the perspective of a trans character
12:34 if it involves transition.
12:35 But I was trying to make it feel a bit more universal
12:38 to not just be about the transition,
12:41 which is why, by the way, there aren't that many details
12:44 about Ming's physical transition,
12:46 although we're aware it happens.
12:48 We don't spend much time with her through that process.
12:53 And it's because I wanted to focus on the impact
12:56 of transition as a relational thing.
12:59 And having two perspectives,
13:03 both Tom and Ming's really helped to achieve that.
13:06 - Yeah, it's so interesting
13:07 'cause I think we have a very one-sided view
13:10 of relationships in life, don't we?
13:12 Because even if it's,
13:14 obviously we only experience our own experiences
13:16 in a relationship,
13:17 but we also only experience a one-sided view
13:19 from the relationships of our friends
13:21 because we only get their perspective.
13:23 Unless we're friends with both people,
13:25 but generally, if we're only friends
13:27 with one person in a relationship,
13:29 you do get a very biased view.
13:30 And I think, like you said, you end up just thinking,
13:33 oh, well, they're a dickhead, they're a dickhead.
13:36 It's actually just not a helpful way to view humanity
13:39 or romantic relationships.
13:41 And it really inhibits growth anyway.
13:43 So I think it's a useful tool for life
13:47 to think about it from both sides.
13:49 It sounds so simple,
13:50 but I feel like none of us do that.
13:51 - What I was saying too,
13:52 it's like everyone talks about political polarization.
13:55 Like, wow, the left is so polarized from the right.
13:58 But it's like, have you examined the polarization
14:01 with your boyfriend?
14:02 - Yeah. - It's crazy.
14:03 - Romantic polarization.
14:05 Or even polarization with your friendship group.
14:07 That kind of polarization and siloing and echo chambering
14:11 happens in every aspect of our day to day.
14:14 I think what's so fun for me as a writer as well
14:16 is having to write both sides of a relationship,
14:20 I almost check myself.
14:22 It's like I'm being forced to do that exercise
14:24 of putting myself in someone else's mind.
14:28 And at times in the book, I feel more aligned with Tom.
14:31 And at other times in the book,
14:32 I feel more aligned with Ming.
14:35 And feel like a sense of anger for the other person.
14:38 But then when I switch the perspectives,
14:40 it sort of levels me out a bit.
14:42 I think it is something I can kind of take
14:44 into my actual life.
14:46 - Yeah, yeah, yeah.
14:46 It'd be useful for all of us to do that.
14:48 - Yeah.
14:49 - And do you think of this book as a love story?
14:52 Or if you had to kind of categorize it in any genre,
14:54 would you say it's a romance book?
14:57 - I think the literary fiction author, quote unquote,
15:02 in me is like, any sense of genre, I sort of squirm.
15:07 'Cause I'm like, oh, what if that's a reductive way
15:09 to look at it?
15:10 But I can't admit that there's a lot of love in the novel.
15:14 But I think there's a sense of subversion
15:17 of that idea of a love story.
15:20 Because I think the novel is looking at
15:22 how does love transform?
15:25 It's looking at the existence of multiple kinds of love.
15:29 I rarely see books about friendship
15:32 being described as love stories.
15:35 But I often think they should be.
15:36 I think those are perhaps some of the most meaningful
15:39 relationships and long lasting relationships
15:42 I will ever have in my life.
15:44 And the love and care in those relationships are so rich.
15:48 And maybe I would want those novels about friendship
15:52 to be described as love story too.
15:54 So in actual fact, maybe I will claim love story for this.
15:58 - Yeah, I think we just have a very,
15:59 we have a very reductive view of love stories as you said.
16:02 And I think when we socially think about love,
16:06 we do tend to think about romantic love.
16:08 - Yeah, well I think we have.
16:09 - Unfortunately.
16:10 - Yeah, I think it's not just that we have a reductive view
16:13 about love stories.
16:14 I think we have quite a reductive view about love.
16:19 And I've been to a few weddings and I really enjoy them.
16:24 It's so fun to celebrate friends coming together,
16:29 family coming together.
16:31 But I suppose the one thing I've always found odd
16:33 about weddings, and I suppose because there's such
16:35 a huge expense in order to justify the expense
16:38 and the whole charade, or I maybe shouldn't say charade,
16:42 but the whole event, there's this need to say,
16:46 well, a romantic partner is the most important thing.
16:50 'Cause why else would we be here?
16:53 If that wasn't the most important thing,
16:56 why have I dropped a bomb on this marquee?
16:59 If this isn't the most important thing in your life.
17:02 But there's a sense of, okay, well, all that's there.
17:07 And sometimes I felt that I can go to a wedding
17:11 and leave almost feeling like, oh,
17:13 but there are so many other things to life
17:15 and there are so many other things to love.
17:17 And my friends mean so much to me.
17:20 And maybe a wedding isn't a place to express that.
17:24 But I think almost when there's someone you haven't seen
17:27 in a really long time, or if there's family members
17:29 that are very interested in who you're dating,
17:31 and that tends to be the litmus test
17:36 for whether you're happy, or someone asks
17:38 if you're in a relationship and you say yes,
17:41 and they immediately say, oh, I'm so happy for you.
17:44 - Drives me mad.
17:45 - Yeah, I was like, you're not gonna ask more questions?
17:48 - Well, because also if you say, oh, no,
17:50 I'm not dating anyone in the room,
17:51 they're like, oh, I'm sure I can find someone to say--
17:53 - Have you tried the apps?
17:54 - Yeah, oh, I'm sure I can find someone to say,
17:56 I was like, no, I'm happily single.
17:57 Leave me the fuck alone.
17:58 - Yeah, so it's like, there's this weird expectation
18:01 that romantic love equals happiness.
18:05 I do think that's just symptomatic
18:09 of that reductive act we take towards love.
18:12 - It's this idea that romantic love is gonna save you
18:14 from something. - Yeah.
18:16 - And it's like, no, no, you're gonna save yourself.
18:17 - Yeah, I wish.
18:18 (laughing)
18:19 - The only person that can save you from anything is you.
18:22 There's so many lines that stand out to me in the book
18:24 that I wanna ask you about, but one that I wanted
18:27 to bring up was when Tom tells Ming that he came out late
18:30 and then adds, "Nobody wants to admit
18:32 "that people leave the closet, but not the room."
18:35 That really struck me.
18:37 What do you think Tom means when he says that to Ming?
18:39 - So I think there's a sense of lingering shame
18:44 that a lot of queer people deal with.
18:50 And also, I think with stories of queer people
18:56 generally, they often exist in extremes.
19:00 We have these stories of queer misery,
19:02 but then we have these unrelenting stories of queer joy.
19:06 And it's like, well, in reality,
19:08 does something more in the middle exist?
19:11 That you have maybe this very liberating act.
19:14 And if you're lucky to have people around you
19:16 who love and accept you for who you are,
19:19 then that can be extremely liberating.
19:21 But at the same time, you still harbor all of those things
19:25 that you've heard when you were younger
19:28 and all of those little things
19:29 that make you feel less worthy,
19:31 that have a cumulative effect
19:33 in how you relate to others in the present.
19:36 So I think that's what I was trying to say
19:37 when I wrote, "People leave the closet, but not the room."
19:42 And in the book, Ming and Tom,
19:46 with regards to Tom's sexuality,
19:48 his identity as a gay man,
19:50 and Ming's life as a trans woman,
19:52 both of them haven't faced many barriers.
19:56 Tom is this middle-class white boy
19:59 who grows up in South London
20:00 with very well-meaning, very white parents,
20:04 and who are very open and accepting,
20:07 even though they often, not even occasionally,
20:10 often make blunders.
20:12 And Ming comes from
20:17 a relatively financially privileged position.
20:19 She's able to afford hormone replacement therapy,
20:24 and that means jumping through a very long NHS queue
20:29 that's very inhumane
20:31 and a huge problem for trans people in the UK today.
20:34 But despite those things and despite those barriers,
20:38 they still face difficulties
20:41 with respect to their own identities.
20:44 And I think in that way,
20:47 we almost underestimate those little things
20:51 we pick up as children and as teenagers,
20:54 before we have a real sense of ourselves
20:57 or before we've formed
20:58 a fully actualised version of ourselves.
21:02 And I really want to examine,
21:04 well, in the absence of all those barriers,
21:06 what's left behind and how does it affect us?
21:09 - Yeah, I think that's really interesting
21:10 because those barriers you mentioned are things that,
21:14 when we do read about trans issues in the news,
21:16 those are the things that are gonna come up.
21:18 And I feel like it's those nuanced kind of things
21:22 once we get past that,
21:24 because maybe there's this sense that,
21:26 oh, once you overcome all of those barriers, you're fine.
21:28 - Yeah.
21:29 - And it's like, no, there's still
21:31 internal psychological difficulties
21:33 because of transphobia and how rampant it is today.
21:38 So I think it's interesting
21:39 to actually put that all to one side
21:41 and focus on the kind of deeper way it affects your brains.
21:45 - And I think that's a point that,
21:50 that's a really astute point to make
21:52 because there is just so much media focus
21:56 on the physical aspects of transitioning
21:59 and supporting trans people through that.
22:02 And I think even really well-meaning allies
22:06 will be like, okay, well,
22:08 we really need to reduce the NHS times.
22:10 We really need to make surgical intervention
22:12 available in the NHS.
22:14 Again, without really long wait times,
22:17 but, and we do, and that is so important,
22:21 but we also need to focus on,
22:24 well, how do we actually support people
22:26 who've grown up in hostile, wider environments
22:30 or who have suffered
22:32 due to the impact of shame on their psyche?
22:36 And I do think that sort of,
22:37 we need to peel that back a bit.
22:40 But for me as a writer,
22:41 I think there was some fear of,
22:42 okay, well, what if my book doesn't draw enough attention
22:47 to these bigger issues?
22:49 And there's a lot of fear that like,
22:51 I haven't discharged my responsibility
22:54 as a writer to focus on things like long wait times
22:58 on the NHS, even though, for example,
23:00 Ming does kind of reflect on it briefly in the book,
23:03 it's not at its centre.
23:05 And there's almost like the worry of like,
23:06 am I representing the trans experience fully
23:10 or appropriately? - But also,
23:11 what's interesting about that is like,
23:13 you're a writer, you're not an activist
23:16 just because of your identity.
23:17 And I think that's something that is often misplaced
23:21 culturally. - Yeah, that's true.
23:22 - Like that's not necessarily your responsibility
23:25 unless you want to make it your responsibility.
23:26 - Yeah.
23:27 - But maybe that's something that is thrust upon you.
23:30 - But I do think writers maybe have some responsibility.
23:33 And I've been thinking a lot about this recently,
23:36 that there maybe is some,
23:40 maybe it is incumbent on some writers to kind of like,
23:43 if it's set in the reality that we live in,
23:47 if the book is set in the reality that we live in,
23:50 then maybe it is incumbent on writers to situate their work
23:55 in a broader context.
23:56 And I have tried to do that with "Bellies"
23:58 and I hope that by doing that,
23:59 I've kind of discharged that responsibility of,
24:02 expressing that Ming's experience
24:05 isn't necessarily representative.
24:07 Although, I also hope a reader will be able to do
24:11 some of the work and realise
24:12 that that will obviously not be the case.
24:15 But I do think writers have a little bit of responsibility.
24:17 - Totally. - Even if they're not activists
24:20 because your work will engage with the broader world.
24:23 And as I said earlier,
24:26 there's something about "Bellies",
24:27 even though it is so far from being like a work of,
24:31 a political work,
24:32 there's something about it which will always be
24:35 inherently political because of the context
24:38 in which it is published.
24:40 - Yeah.
24:41 In one interview,
24:43 this kind of goes back to what we were saying before,
24:45 but you said that,
24:46 when we do have trans characters in popular culture,
24:48 there's this impetus to create them
24:50 as like completely virtuous.
24:51 - Yeah.
24:53 - Why do you think that is?
24:55 And how do we move away from that?
24:58 Is it, does that come from a place of guilt
25:01 or what do you think that is?
25:03 - I think it comes from a place of fear.
25:06 You know, I think you look at like a very marginalized group
25:11 and there's a fear of playing in to people's
25:16 unfair judgments on that group of people.
25:20 You know, if I take trans women as an example,
25:23 like some unfair like insults levied against trans women
25:28 is often like narcissism or superficiality or cruelty.
25:33 And there's a level to which in the book,
25:35 Ming is kind of at times all of those things.
25:40 And I think, you know, there's a fear of, okay,
25:42 well, what if someone reads my book and thinks
25:46 all trans women are narcissists, cruel, superficial.
25:50 But you know, in my view, firstly,
25:53 you kind of have to accept that that can happen.
25:56 You know, I think I've been,
25:58 I was reflecting on when Tori Peters was nominated
26:03 for the women's prize for "Detransition Baby"
26:06 and there was this open letter written against,
26:09 you know, her being on the long list.
26:13 And it was like the most incendiary letter.
26:15 It was like, actually, in some ways,
26:17 I was talking to a trans friend of mine and we were like,
26:19 this is kind of a gift because it's so horrible
26:23 and like so awful that I don't think anyone could read
26:27 this letter and think that that was okay,
26:29 except that those people who signed it.
26:31 You know, it's kind of those moments in life
26:34 where you experience a microaggression
26:36 and you feel unable to say anything about it.
26:38 And you almost wish that they just said what they meant.
26:42 And that letter said what it meant.
26:43 And it was so awful.
26:45 And it made me realize that people will read a book
26:49 like "Detransition Baby," which is so nuanced and so clever
26:53 and still take what they want from it.
26:55 Like if they want to make a delusional take
26:57 or they have a delusional sense of what a trans person is,
27:01 that that will be, you know,
27:03 what they take away from the book.
27:04 And there's only so much you can do with that.
27:06 - Yeah, because they're not open
27:08 to having their interpretation changed anyway.
27:10 - No, exactly.
27:11 So it's a sense of like, okay,
27:13 well, people are just going to take from it
27:15 what they want to.
27:16 And that's like completely out of my hands.
27:19 And so when I wrote a character like Ming,
27:21 who is at times these things that are,
27:25 these terms that are levied against trans women,
27:28 I was like, well, what I'm doing is actually giving context
27:32 to why she might be a little narcissistic at times,
27:34 because she's in a world
27:36 that is constantly judging her appearance.
27:38 And she constantly feels like
27:41 if she appears to be the wrong thing,
27:44 she might be in danger.
27:45 So of course that breeds a sense of narcissism
27:47 and superficiality.
27:48 And she's also cruel because she's very hurt
27:51 and she's in pain and she feels very lonely.
27:55 And I think rather than looking at, okay,
27:59 well, this is just something she inherently is.
28:01 If you give context to those experiences,
28:04 they suddenly become a bit more meaningful,
28:07 but they also lose their power
28:11 in terms of being used against her,
28:13 as like, she is this way,
28:16 because there's like something inherently wrong with her.
28:19 But I think it's kind of necessary
28:22 in order to create empathy for a character,
28:26 to make them a little fallible.
28:28 But that's very scary to do.
28:30 And I think it's so much in the novels
28:32 is like centered around vulnerability.
28:34 Like the title as well is basically a novel,
28:38 it's essentially about vulnerability.
28:41 It's about showing your belly to someone
28:43 where all your organs are
28:45 in the fear that they're just gonna gut you and walk away.
28:48 So, but at the same time as a writer and as a trans writer,
28:52 it's also kind of a vulnerable act
28:54 to put out a character
28:56 who might just be received the wrong way
28:59 and not be seen for who she is,
29:01 but only for these actions read without context.
29:06 But I think it's important as a writer,
29:07 just as it's important in relationships to be vulnerable,
29:11 to be close to other people
29:12 and to have people understand you
29:14 and empathize with you and for you to empathize with them.
29:17 I think it's in writing,
29:18 it's important to be vulnerable too
29:19 and put characters out there
29:21 that without quite knowing how a public will respond.
29:26 And I think, but at the same time,
29:28 you kind of have to take that risk
29:30 to create meaningful characters that people find relatable.
29:34 - How do you feel about cis-gendered writers
29:37 creating trans characters?
29:40 - So, I just like don't say
29:43 no to anything like this.
29:46 I just don't think anything is off the table,
29:51 right off the bat.
29:53 Then we have to kind of look at,
29:55 okay, well, how do I write these experiences well?
29:58 I think a cis-gender person writing something
30:03 to which like, something about trans people
30:07 when they've never even spoken
30:08 or met a trans person,
30:10 done no reading about what it means to be trans,
30:13 very strange.
30:14 But I think what we'll find
30:15 is that it probably won't be a very good book.
30:18 It probably won't be a book that will stand the test of time
30:22 and I think a lot of writers,
30:26 I think particularly of an older generation,
30:30 though that is like a very blanket statement,
30:33 but I think, and I think too often
30:34 these cultural issues are just painted
30:36 as generational divides when it's much more complicated.
30:40 But I think for some writers
30:42 who have maybe written a time
30:43 where there's been like fewer checks and balances
30:46 with regards to what they want to write,
30:48 the idea that there could be any curb on creativity
30:52 is kind of unfathomable.
30:54 They're like, well, I'd rather not write then.
30:56 But it's like, you kind of have to take some care
30:59 when writing.
31:00 I've said this a lot in other talks and things
31:03 where I think there is like a fine line
31:06 between care and censorship.
31:08 And it might be a fine line
31:11 and it's sometimes like difficult to navigate,
31:14 but the line is there.
31:16 And I think it's important to take care regardless.
31:20 And the more, the further you write away
31:24 from your own experience, the more care you have to take,
31:28 the more research you have to do.
31:30 And I think there's a greater responsibility
31:33 on that writer to do that work.
31:36 But, you know, I think some trans, cis people
31:40 have really close relationships with trans people
31:44 that are worth writing about.
31:46 You know, "The Argonauts" by Maggie Nelson,
31:49 I always say is such a good example of, you know,
31:52 a cisgender woman writing so meaningfully
31:57 on like a queer family, which involving a trans parent,
32:01 you know, her partner, Harry Dodge.
32:04 And it's such a beautiful book.
32:07 And to offhand say that she can't write that is a bit silly.
32:12 But I also haven't ever heard anyone say
32:15 that cisgender people can't write trans characters
32:18 or that people can't write outside of their own experiences.
32:22 Like I've never actually heard anyone say this,
32:25 but I think a lot of people who resist that idea
32:29 like to say that that's what people are saying.
32:32 When really it's saying do, but also do research.
32:36 - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
32:37 That's so true.
32:38 It's just one of those things
32:39 that like actually isn't a problem.
32:40 - Yeah, like you is actually saying this.
32:42 Like when has anyone said this to you?
32:46 - Yeah.
32:47 Let's talk about the TV adaptation quickly
32:49 'cause this is so exciting.
32:51 And I know that you're involved
32:52 in the screenwriting process.
32:53 How have you found that?
32:55 And when you were writing "Bellies",
32:56 did you imagine it being on the screen?
32:58 - It's been so surreal.
33:01 Like I think the manuscript for my book
33:04 got leaked to TV production companies
33:07 before I even had a book deal.
33:09 So right after we signed the book deal,
33:12 suddenly we had this really busy auction
33:15 for selling the rights to the TV show.
33:19 And it was so strange.
33:21 And there wasn't almost enough time to process things.
33:26 I think I'm a very visual person.
33:29 I've grown up watching a lot of TV and films.
33:31 So I couldn't help but fantasize
33:35 when I was writing the book being like,
33:36 "Oh, it'd be so cool if one day this was a TV show."
33:40 But I didn't write it to be made into a screenplay
33:42 because I think the quality,
33:45 and by quality I mean nature of screenwriting
33:47 versus writing prose, it's so different.
33:49 And I think you have so much less freedom
33:51 with screenwriting and you can't use literary devices
33:54 and you're limited in the way you describe things.
33:57 When you're writing prose,
33:58 you have so much at your disposal
34:00 in terms of how you craft.
34:02 And you're also in complete control of the entire world.
34:07 Like you wanna add a dragon, do it.
34:09 Like you wanna do anything, just do it in your prose.
34:11 But with TV, there is something,
34:14 suddenly you're bringing in,
34:15 "Okay, well, the director might need
34:17 "to interpret this this way.
34:18 "And we need to leave space
34:19 "for the actors to interpret certain things.
34:22 "And we also don't wanna get bogged down
34:24 "in descriptions of set."
34:26 And so there's almost this relinquishing of control.
34:29 And suddenly this very private exercise of writing a novel
34:33 becomes something so much more open and collaborative.
34:38 It's been kind of refreshing
34:39 to actually be able to work with other people.
34:41 It's like, "Oh, I have colleagues again."
34:44 But the process is very different.
34:45 (upbeat music)
34:48 - Okay, let's move on to the loves of your life
34:55 that you've chosen.
34:56 So the first one is an item of food
34:59 that reminds you of home.
35:00 So tell us what you've chosen.
35:02 - So I've chosen roti canai.
35:04 You know, Malaysians will know.
35:08 It's like basically this delicious flat,
35:11 like kind of paratha, but very, very buttery, oily.
35:16 You see the dough before it's cooked on the griddle.
35:18 And it's just this like white ball, slipped up ball.
35:23 And then it's like flattened and rolled into a spiral.
35:27 And it's just cooked.
35:28 And when you, as you pull it apart,
35:29 it's like doughy and delicious.
35:31 And you dip it in fish curry, chicken curry.
35:34 And you know, it just coats it in this red wash.
35:37 And it's so delicious.
35:38 And whenever I go back home to Malaysia,
35:40 you know, we go straight from the airport.
35:42 And we'll go stop in a Mamak stall,
35:45 which is, you know, derived from like Tamil Muslims
35:49 who cook these like traditional Tamil Muslim recipes,
35:52 including roti canai.
35:54 And we'll just eat it and then go home.
35:56 And it just feels like homecoming to me.
35:59 And whenever I miss home,
36:00 I stop by Roti King in Houston,
36:03 pay an obscene amount for two pieces of roti canai,
36:06 just to feel a little bit closer to home.
36:09 You know, I sort of mentioned it
36:10 'cause it just reminds me of family,
36:12 Malaysia, where I grew up,
36:14 and all of my friends from home as well.
36:16 - Do you go back to Malaysia very much?
36:18 - So I go back about once a year,
36:21 which never feels like quite enough.
36:22 And I haven't really lived there
36:25 since I left school when I was 18 to move here.
36:29 But that's what's so nice about Riding Bellies
36:32 and getting to write about Malaysian food.
36:33 You know, Ming is Malaysian.
36:35 And Tom and Ming go back to Malaysia in one chapter.
36:39 And I think that's probably
36:40 one of my favorite chapters in the novel.
36:43 And they're sort of exploring Kuala Lumpur together.
36:45 They're going round eating all the food
36:47 that Ming wants Tom to try.
36:50 And that whole chapter to me just feels very beautiful.
36:54 And I always sort of dip into it when I'm missing home.
36:57 - You mentioned roti king.
36:58 What do you make of the food in London otherwise?
37:01 Do you find- - You know what?
37:03 - 'Cause comparatively, I feel like
37:04 it's just not on the same scale.
37:06 - You know what, it's different.
37:08 I think there's sort of like a running joke
37:11 between me and my friends
37:12 that I'm like a weirdly staunch defender of British food.
37:15 - Oh, really? - Yeah.
37:16 I think, you know, when I think about it,
37:17 a lot of like aversion to British food
37:21 is boiled down to an extent.
37:24 I know it's kind of like seasonless,
37:26 but, or like completely lacking seasoning.
37:30 But a lot of that aversion to British food
37:32 is kind of rooted in some form of like classism
37:34 that I've really noticed in the UK.
37:36 But, you know, in Malaysia, we fucking love fish and chips.
37:40 Like, it's like a real, like,
37:41 people really love British food.
37:43 And I think that there's almost this like unwillingness
37:46 to enjoy British food for what it is,
37:48 which is often like quite hearty.
37:51 But I also think food in London is really great.
37:54 Like so many good Chinese restaurants
37:57 and very good like regional Chinese restaurants as well.
37:59 But obviously the Malaysian food isn't, you know,
38:04 we don't have the same range here,
38:06 but Norma's in Queensway is like my number one.
38:09 - Oh, really? - Yeah.
38:10 I die for them, they're amazing.
38:12 - Do you cook much?
38:13 - I cook a lot of Chinese food.
38:16 I cook Malaysian food occasionally.
38:18 I love to make a rendang,
38:19 which is this like very, very slow cooked Malaysian curry.
38:23 You basically have this paste,
38:25 which whenever I go back to Malaysia,
38:27 we go, me and my mum go to like this wet market
38:30 and we pick up the curry paste I like.
38:33 And then I bring it home and you fry it a bit,
38:35 off a bit in some oil, you put your meat in,
38:38 and then you pour the coconut milk in
38:39 and simmer it until the coconut milk completely evaporates.
38:43 So over like more than three hours.
38:45 And then it just becomes this sticky, fatty,
38:49 rich mess of a curry.
38:51 That's like sort of perfect with some like sticky rice
38:54 or roti canai.
38:55 - Oh, that sounds amazing.
38:56 Now I'm getting really hungry.
38:58 Your second love is complicated characters.
39:01 - Yeah. - I think it's very apt
39:02 because of the characters you've obviously written about
39:04 in "Bellies", but tell us why you've chosen this
39:06 and what you mean when you say complicated characters.
39:09 - I think like we said earlier,
39:11 just characters which are fallible,
39:14 because I've always found those characters more relatable.
39:17 I actually think like a seminal moment
39:20 in like my creative awakening was watching "Girls"
39:23 when I was a teenager.
39:24 And you know, obviously watching that show
39:26 with a 20/23 lens, it feels much more problematic
39:30 than it did at the time.
39:32 It has its problems, that's clear.
39:34 But I feel like as a young person, as a teenager,
39:37 it was my first exposure to really shitty characters.
39:41 Like really, I was like, oh my God,
39:43 like these girls are awful.
39:45 But I also really relate to them.
39:47 I think there's so much power
39:48 in having these complicated characters
39:51 who are like sometimes more good, sometimes more banned.
39:55 And there's just so much reality, you know,
39:59 in that kind of portrayal of people.
40:02 And it's why it's so nice to write a trans character
40:03 like Ming, who also is that, you know,
40:05 I want to fight for the right for trans people
40:07 to be pieces of shit too.
40:09 - Yeah, it's interesting about "Girls"
40:11 'cause I think, like you said,
40:12 it was one of those first pieces of popular culture
40:15 where there weren't really any likable women
40:18 in the main, as the main women.
40:21 I know the show was compared a lot to "Sex and the City"
40:24 and it wasn't because "Sex and the City,"
40:26 all those characters were fundamentally pretty likable.
40:29 And in "Girls," they were all quite easy to hate.
40:32 - No, exactly.
40:33 But you know, I think that's life.
40:36 I think like all of us are probably at times easy to hate,
40:40 particularly when we're around those closest to us.
40:42 - Yeah, yeah, yeah.
40:43 It's interesting 'cause I agree with you,
40:45 like watching that show now,
40:47 it is obviously quite problematic,
40:48 but it was also quite ahead of its time
40:51 in certain other ways, I think.
40:53 Like there's that one episode,
40:54 I think it's called "American Bitch,"
40:55 where she goes to the house of an older writer.
40:58 - Yes, yes.
40:59 - And it's sort of like a pre-Me Too kind of story.
41:02 And I thought that was really, really well done.
41:04 And there's certain things that you watch
41:06 and you're like, oh, damn, they really,
41:07 they were really clever and on it,
41:10 but it was obviously kind of taken down
41:13 with other things that were a bit backward.
41:14 - Yeah, and I guess sometimes with bellies,
41:17 I'm like, oh, will this be in any way viewed
41:21 as like problematic further down the line?
41:24 But I think as a writer,
41:25 that's something you have to accept,
41:26 that you're writing at a particular moment in time
41:29 with the tools you have.
41:30 And when that criticism does come,
41:33 you just have to listen graciously.
41:35 - Yeah, I agree with you.
41:37 It's interesting mentioning "Sex and City" as well,
41:39 'cause I was just thinking about
41:41 the representation of trans characters
41:42 and that was absolutely dreadful.
41:44 But then have you seen the reboot?
41:48 - I have seen the reboot.
41:49 And I think, oh God, it's like, okay,
41:52 like what's happened in those 20 years
41:55 since "Sex and City" ended?
41:57 Okay, well, like BLM happened,
42:01 trans people exist now.
42:03 - That's literally, it feels like that's literally
42:05 what they're trying to tell us.
42:05 - And I was like, okay, we're just gonna stop this thing.
42:09 - I know.
42:10 - And I was like, okay, well, it just feels like
42:11 so ham-fisted and not like very smart.
42:14 - No, I agree.
42:14 - Like I do think Che is like potentially
42:17 like the worst character I've ever seen.
42:20 - I know, I know.
42:21 - And like not in that like fallible,
42:23 I want complex characters kind of way.
42:24 I was like, this is just not a good character.
42:26 - Yeah, I agree with you.
42:28 'Cause it's funny, 'cause it's like, yes,
42:30 we need to move forward and be more representative,
42:32 but not like that.
42:33 (laughs)
42:34 That's not helpful.
42:35 - Yeah, it's like the way they've done it
42:37 doesn't feel meaningful.
42:39 - No, I agree with you.
42:41 Okay, finally, you have chosen group chats,
42:43 which is such an interesting one,
42:45 because I personally hate group chats.
42:48 So I want to know why you have chosen this
42:50 and what you love about them.
42:50 - Yeah, so I chose group chats because,
42:54 you know, there's this sense of,
42:55 when you leave university, you're at university,
43:00 you're surrounded by all of your friends all of the time,
43:03 and then you're thrown into the big wide world.
43:06 Suddenly you're all living in different areas of London
43:09 or not even in London at all.
43:11 And you're suddenly feeling very atomized.
43:14 And I found that one thing that has always made me feel
43:18 that sensation of being surrounded by friends
43:21 is group chats, just being able to be in touch with people.
43:26 And yeah, I don't want to sound like one of those,
43:29 like middle-aged people from 10 years ago
43:33 who downloaded Facebook and they're like,
43:34 wow, it's just so nice to be in contact
43:36 with people I went to school with.
43:37 But like at the same time,
43:39 it's actually really nice to kind of have a piece
43:41 of that again, and, you know, they've sustained,
43:44 my group chats have like lasted years and years.
43:47 I think that's such a wonderful thing
43:49 to just be able to be in contact with people
43:51 and, you know, kind of have a technological antidote
43:55 to, you know, the sense of loneliness
43:59 that can come sometimes with living in a big city
44:03 and working a really hard job.
44:05 - I quite like that group chats can start
44:08 from the most like inane kind of reason.
44:10 - Yeah, like dinner on Thursday.
44:12 - Yeah, and those are the ones that last for years.
44:14 - Yeah.
44:15 - What are some of your like main group chats
44:16 that have been around for ages?
44:18 Did they start as like a kind of innocuous?
44:20 - Yeah, I remember one, like my big one now started
44:24 because like we were gonna buy my friend a birthday present
44:28 when we were like in second year of uni.
44:30 And so that group has like expanded.
44:32 It's like moved across different apps.
44:35 Like it was on Facebook Messenger and now it's on WhatsApp.
44:38 I just, that's amazing.
44:39 It's like, it's like kind of like, yeah,
44:42 it's like people have come and gone, but it's like,
44:46 it's nice, it's just stood the test of time.
44:49 - And it's just like a catch up group.
44:50 What kind of things do you talk about?
44:51 Will you talk about like your day
44:52 or something you've seen in the news or?
44:54 - Yeah, it's like everything from someone just saw
44:57 like a famous person or there's a funny meme
45:00 or something interesting has just happened in someone's day
45:03 or sometimes really long discussions,
45:05 but often about silly things,
45:07 often like really lighthearted.
45:08 And it's a perfect example of what we were talking about,
45:12 about like maybe sometimes an unhealthy echo chamber,
45:16 but sometimes those echo chambers
45:20 are comforting and necessary.
45:22 - Yeah, well, I think with dating group chats
45:24 are particularly comforting and necessary
45:25 because you can be like, this person is an asshole.
45:28 Look what they just said.
45:29 - And also lots of screenshots from dating apps
45:31 go into the chat as well.
45:33 - I can imagine.
45:34 That's it for today.
45:35 Thank you everyone so much for joining us.
45:37 You can listen to Love Lives on all major podcast platforms.
45:41 You can also watch us on independent TV,
45:44 all major connected devices and all social media platforms.
45:48 I will see you soon, bye.
45:49 (upbeat music)
45:52 (upbeat music)
45:54 (upbeat music)