Yourcinemafilms.com | Missed the "From Social Media to TV Series" session at Our Stories Festival? Don't worry we've got you covered!
Adjani Salmon was joined by Jon Petrie and Tanya Quereshi from BBC Comedy for an insightful session on how your ideas can go from content online to a full TV series!
’Welcome to Your Cinema'
Follow us on socials:
Tiktok: @yourcinemafilms
Instagram: @yourcinemafilms
Twitter: @yourcinemafilms
Adjani Salmon was joined by Jon Petrie and Tanya Quereshi from BBC Comedy for an insightful session on how your ideas can go from content online to a full TV series!
’Welcome to Your Cinema'
Follow us on socials:
Tiktok: @yourcinemafilms
Instagram: @yourcinemafilms
Twitter: @yourcinemafilms
Category
😹
FunTranscript
00:00 My name is Ajani Salman. I'm a writer, director, actor, showrunner, and I created Dreaming Whilst Black.
00:09 He's also a BAFTA winner, an international Emmy nominated, RTS, so yeah.
00:19 No, sorry, yeah, go.
00:21 Yes, Tanya.
00:22 I'm Tanya. I work in the BBC Comedy Commissioning Team with John.
00:27 So I'm a commissioner, so I'll work on shows like Dreaming Whilst Black.
00:31 You're the head of comedy.
00:32 I am the head of comedy.
00:33 She's also the head of comedy at BBC.
00:36 Yes, yes, yes.
00:38 I'm John Petrie. I'm the director of comedy. It's all nonsense. It means nothing.
00:45 But yeah, so I sort of head up the comedy department, and we have a team of five commissioners.
00:53 Tanya's our head of comedy, and I'm sort of like the politician, basically, of comedy,
00:58 and I work with other genre heads of the BBC.
01:03 What else do I tell you?
01:04 We make about 25 shows a year.
01:07 That's new and returning.
01:08 We're the biggest producers of comedy in the UK, and that's it.
01:14 Wow, wow, wow, wow. Can we have a round of applause for... Yes.
01:17 Cool, cool, cool, cool.
01:19 So, John, seeing as like you oversee everything, right, and we've seen like the wide range of shows
01:27 that have been commissioned, et cetera, which is lovely, by the way,
01:30 what would you say is like the vision for BBC comedy moving forward?
01:36 I think--so yeah, the important thing for us is obviously everyone pays a licence fee
01:40 or should pay a licence fee, and so we've got to make sort of comedy for everyone
01:46 and cater for all tastes and all of our audiences, so that's the most important thing,
01:51 and that's obviously 65 million people or something from all the nations and regions,
01:57 and I think it's representing Britain, really.
02:00 I think the most important thing for us is that we give Britain its place,
02:05 and luckily British comedy exports quite well around the world,
02:10 and lots of our shows are co-produced, The Wonderful Dream, Ross Black being an example,
02:14 with A24, and so I think it's just making sure that we make stuff
02:21 that British people are going to find funny.
02:23 I love that, I love that.
02:25 Now, being that this session is about going from, you know, independent content creators
02:32 to like having like a full series, right, Ajani, we're going to go straight in,
02:36 like you put out Dreaming Whilst Black by yourself on YouTube.
02:42 How did you - how did we get to the pilot? Not the series, just the pilot.
02:48 Sorry. I feel like we just shot every shot possible.
02:55 I don't think there's necessarily a direct way.
02:58 Even getting signed was very much - I went to - because we used to go to all the screenings,
03:04 like every screening. That's what we meant, right?
03:07 We just saw random bureau cinema cool there.
03:12 Well, that's how I got signed, by meeting someone who knew someone, literally.
03:17 I met a guy who'd watched the show who says that his older brother went to boarding school
03:21 with this guy in Nigeria who's now an agent in London.
03:26 Wow, okay.
03:27 You know what I'm saying? But that's how I got signed.
03:30 Subsequently, shopping the - like reaching out to production companies,
03:35 that's how we got introduced to Big Deal Films.
03:38 And then Big Deal Films is who reached out to all the networks,
03:43 who then - Sarah Asante at the time saw - she responded to the work well,
03:49 and she commissioned us to the pilot.
03:52 Wow.
03:53 To write the pilot.
03:54 Okay, amazing. That's a great stoppage point.
03:58 I just want to pick up - so basically you just networked horizontally,
04:03 and you ended up getting signed.
04:06 Yeah.
04:07 Cool. I'm just picking it up because that's what you guys should be doing.
04:11 In terms of - like when you were reaching out to production companies, right,
04:14 what were you sending them?
04:16 And I'll say how I first came about the show, right, I remember this clear as day.
04:21 We'd just finished doing an interview with Kobe Adam, right,
04:24 and at the end of it we're, like, you know, packing down, et cetera.
04:29 And I was, like, "Ah, my friend's done this show that's coming out soon,"
04:33 and he showed me the trailer.
04:35 And I remember seeing it and I said, "I want that. I want that.
04:39 "We need to screen it. I want the exclusive."
04:41 I think I probably even called, like, "How can we do this?"
04:43 And, you know, "You're very savvy," and we didn't get it.
04:45 But anyway, it doesn't matter. We're not bitter.
04:48 What were you sending them, like, to get those meetings with production companies?
04:53 The web series.
04:54 So it wasn't, like, a trailer treatment.
04:56 It was literally, like, here's the finished product.
04:58 We had released the entire web series by that point.
05:02 So it was very much, "Yo, this is the web series. We want it.
05:06 "It's a TV show. I don't know. Do you like it?"
05:10 You know, which, yeah, for you to be surprised,
05:13 like, not that many people--
05:16 I mean, it's where, like, loads of people were, like, "Oh, this is nice."
05:22 Yeah.
05:23 That's it.
05:25 So, yeah, so it was very much--
05:29 Like, it's not lost on me that, like, Big Deal Films
05:33 is, like, one of the few non-white production companies,
05:37 and they liked it.
05:39 Interesting. Good point. Good point.
05:42 Tanya, now, you--
05:44 Like I was saying before, your IMDB is--
05:47 Like, you just need to Google her and see how many series she execs, right?
05:53 You're across projects every single day.
05:55 What was different about Dreaming Whilst Black?
06:00 Yeah, we chatted before briefly like this.
06:02 I think it's just when you see those projects that are, like,
06:06 purely authored experience stories that you just haven't seen before
06:10 and are truly, like, not to blow smoke up,
06:13 but, like, truly groundbreaking
06:15 and just something you've not seen before on television.
06:18 I think, for me, that's always something where you have to sit up and take notice.
06:21 And, like, just to follow on from Ajani's point,
06:23 one of the best pieces of advice, I think, that anyone should take
06:26 who's a content creator in this room is, yeah,
06:28 finding those people who get your work,
06:30 because it's at every stage you need to find someone who gets it
06:34 and then can see the potential in it.
06:36 So if you can find that right producer or director or collaborator,
06:41 like, reach out and get those people involved,
06:44 because it will just get better and better
06:46 if everyone involved sort of sees what's so important about the show.
06:50 Thank you. Very, very, very good point.
06:54 In terms of, like, once the pilot gets commissioned,
06:57 John, do you have to give sign-off on that?
07:00 Yeah. There's a sort of...
07:03 There's something called... It's so BBC.
07:05 There's a thing called Chips, which is channel and iPlayer.
07:08 So there's a sort of panel of people that we go to them
07:12 and we say, "This is what we want to do."
07:14 And technically... And it does work really well, actually.
07:17 We don't have channel controllers or anything like that,
07:20 so we are in control of, like, what we make and our strategy.
07:24 But they will just ask us loads of questions
07:26 to sort of check that we're on strategy and things like that.
07:29 But generally, yeah, it's sort of... It works quite well
07:33 and we've so far been able to make what we want to make.
07:36 Amazing. OK, cool. So, Tanya, you're on board.
07:40 John, it's now come to you, and this is just a pilot, right?
07:43 What potential did you see in Dreaming Whilst Black?
07:47 Well, it's what Tanya said,
07:51 so it just feels like I haven't seen it before.
07:54 And, you know, like I said earlier,
07:57 we just have to make sure that we've got programming for everyone, OK?
08:01 And it's inclusive. So that was the most important thing.
08:04 It's like, "Well, this is brilliant. This is exactly what we need."
08:08 So, yeah, it's sort of made my job very easy, really.
08:11 And we were quite...we were very lucky,
08:13 cos it's important to say that...
08:15 So, Tanya and I have been at the BBC about two years,
08:18 and there was years of work before.
08:20 Like, I arrived and the pilot had just...
08:22 I think the pilot had just been finished
08:24 and we were waiting for a decision,
08:26 and so it was a really easy decision to make.
08:29 But, you know, we can't really claim that much credit
08:32 cos all the work that had gone in before.
08:34 Amazing, amazing.
08:36 So, Ajani, you've gone from, you know, you and the team
08:40 just making the web series, doing it exactly how you want,
08:43 and then now you get commissioned for a pilot
08:46 and you're getting input and feedback and notes.
08:49 What was that development process like for you?
08:52 - What, for the pilot or...? - Yeah, yeah, just for the pilot.
08:56 To be honest, it was a big transition, because now, you know,
09:01 again, when we wrote the web series, we did what we wanted, right?
09:04 So even if, like, there was no author above us, so to speak,
09:09 whereas when we were with Sarah, who was our commissioner at the time,
09:14 you know, like, she would give us crazy notes
09:17 and we were expected to do the notes.
09:21 And it's like, "Well, but some notes we don't agree with."
09:23 So it's like, "What now?"
09:25 But, you know, my agent saying, "Boy, like..."
09:28 LAUGHTER
09:31 You know, whoever spend the monies, you kind of need to listen to them.
09:37 But we did, like, harangue, like, how to get it.
09:43 Like, how can we do the note but still feel comfortable with the note?
09:48 And again, because the reality is the commissioners know,
09:51 like, them have to deal with off-cam.
09:54 We don't... Internet, you don't have to deal with, like, complaints or, like...
09:58 Even if it's backlash, the backlash is YouTube comments,
10:02 you know what I mean?
10:04 Because the backlash is now, like, people are now targeting the BBC.
10:08 Like, "Madonna say tweets, but, you know, another woke show on BBC."
10:14 You know what I mean?
10:16 So I guess I understand from their perspective
10:19 the importance of protecting, like, the BBC.
10:23 So it was very much just a conversation.
10:26 It was very much a conversation about, like,
10:28 "Look, well, how can we address this
10:32 "that makes us feel comfortable?"
10:34 And working with, like, our producers
10:36 or working with, you know, Big Deal
10:39 to really harangue the scripts because, you know...
10:43 I think, like, there was a lot of pressure
10:45 being that it was about race.
10:47 I think... I don't know.
10:49 Because it was, like, we know we're talking about the thing
10:52 that no-one wants to talk about.
10:54 It was like, you know, you need to get this right.
10:56 So even most was very much, like, on our neck about, like, a line.
11:00 Cos, like, if you get this line wrong,
11:03 people will say... you know, people will come at us.
11:06 So, yeah, it was an interesting...
11:09 We did, like, 45 drafts, so that tells you how hard it was, yeah.
11:14 OK, so 45 drafts.
11:16 Let's get some context for that, right?
11:19 Now, I know you, like...
11:22 Like, you do 100 drafts if you need to, right?
11:25 Like, you are a craftsman.
11:27 Was that 45 drafts...
11:30 ..something that you really wanted to do?
11:34 Or was it...
11:36 Would you maybe have probably done 30,
11:39 but then because of, like, feedback and exchanges and other people...
11:43 No, so contractually, it's three drafts, right?
11:46 We give you... Well, at least we were told at the time,
11:49 "Yeah, from your script, you have three drafts, technically."
11:52 Oh, OK.
11:53 Our first draft that they saw was draft, like, seven.
11:58 OK.
11:59 Because we were batting it between my agent.
12:02 So batting it between my agent, batting it between, you know, the company,
12:06 and then we send them that first draft.
12:08 But then we got, like, two pages of notes, single-line spacing,
12:12 just shredding the whole thing.
12:14 I think there was, like, one positive note.
12:17 It wasn't me.
12:19 No, no, it wasn't them, it wasn't them.
12:22 But it was just, like, "This scene is funny. That's it."
12:26 And then beer cussing after that.
12:28 (laughter)
12:30 So, but because of that, literally, my agent was like,
12:34 "Yo, this is bad, bro. Like, you have two drafts."
12:38 Yeah, it's like, "You have two drafts left."
12:40 And they've just shredded the whole thing.
12:43 So we ended up going, doing multiple drafts that way,
12:47 then realising, actually...
12:49 The issue was we were trying to replica the web series.
12:53 And it's like, actually, but TV is a different format.
12:56 You know, because on YouTube,
12:58 you're trying to grab people's attention in, like, 30 seconds.
13:01 You have to hit them with, like, that thing.
13:03 Whereas with TV, you need to tell a cohesive story.
13:06 Like, people sit down to watch it.
13:09 So just the format experience is different.
13:11 So we went back to outlining after, like, draft 15 or something like that,
13:17 and then outlined tons of drafts again.
13:20 Then come back to the screen.
13:22 And we showed Sarah, like, draft 30 as our second draft.
13:26 Because my agent was just like,
13:28 "Look, bro, you have one shot at this thing.
13:31 "If they don't commission it, like, you're done."
13:35 So it wasn't out of, like, "Oh, yeah, I'd love to do less drafts."
13:39 It was like, "I want this commission."
13:43 And so, yeah, we did what was necessary.
13:46 So how did you know, like, draft 30 was--
13:50 because to go from draft 7 to 30 is--
13:54 sounds like a huge transition.
13:56 I don't know.
13:57 Did you read more books about crafting story?
14:00 Or, like, how did you dig deeper and realise,
14:04 "Actually, this is why it wasn't working in the original?"
14:07 Yeah, so when we went back to outlining,
14:10 we watched Shrill, Rami, Insecure, Atlanta, Fleabag,
14:18 and we watched the pilots of those shows and wrote down--
14:22 we created outlines of those pilots from watching it
14:27 just to say, "All right, cool, structure."
14:30 Like, "Let's dissect the stories."
14:33 And actually what we found is that actually there was a pattern of, like,
14:36 "Cool, they introduced XYZ inciting incident."
14:41 And you realise for all of them it was a similar pattern,
14:44 like, "What does the audience need to know
14:46 before you give them the journey?"
14:48 So when we kind of dissected that,
14:50 then we went back and said, "All right, cool,
14:52 what do we need to know before we tell the audience
14:56 that Kwabena wants to be a filmmaker?"
14:58 And it was just like, bang, bang, bang.
15:00 Literally studying, like, "Cool, joke at the first scene.
15:04 Cool, we need to set up something at the first--
15:06 Like, we kind of forensically dissected pilots
15:10 that work similar to ours in, like, tone, and then went back.
15:15 So I think when we got that right, we were like,
15:18 "Well, we've structurally done the same thing as these shows,
15:22 so technically it should be fine."
15:25 I love that. I love that. A true craftsman.
15:28 Tanya, what Ajani's saying actually
15:33 is a conversation we were having earlier, right,
15:35 in terms of--I don't know if it's the plight of the creative
15:39 in that development phase.
15:41 The wonderful thing about you is you have also produced,
15:46 so you've been on that other side,
15:48 but then now being an exec, how do you approach that process?
15:54 Is it different?
15:55 Because you probably have empathy for the creative
15:58 on the other side, right?
15:59 Yeah, definitely.
16:00 And I guess the difference is you aim to be
16:03 like a fresh pair of eyes,
16:04 so you've been in the trenches for months doing, yeah,
16:08 40 drafts, whatever it is, and then I see it,
16:10 and things that you might not have missed
16:12 or, like, messages you're trying to get through
16:14 or what that character's supposed to represent
16:16 or what that joke is supposed to do,
16:18 when I read it, I haven't been on that journey,
16:20 so I can just go, "Oh, you're not nailing--
16:22 like, her story is missing," or, you know,
16:24 "I don't get the feeling that he wants this enough,"
16:27 or something, and then it's really--
16:29 I can imagine--
16:30 Well, I've been on the side of those notes,
16:32 and it's soul-destroying, because you're like,
16:34 "Oh, man, we thought we had that.
16:35 We thought we'd nailed it,"
16:36 but it just gives you, I hope, that extra push to be like,
16:39 "So, cool, when the audience watch this,
16:41 they're not going to understand that,"
16:43 and we sort of view it at that point
16:45 as the audience would, I suppose,
16:47 coming to it so fresh and just going,
16:49 "If you really want to tell this story,
16:51 this is the bit you have to nail," so, yeah.
16:54 And we-- I guess our notes, I hope--
16:56 I mean, sometimes they're quite detailed,
16:58 but sometimes they're, like, bigger-picture things
17:00 where you try not to get so bogged down in, like, tiny detail.
17:04 It's more like, "Here's some big-picture themes
17:06 or character notes that, you know,
17:09 we think still need some work,"
17:11 so hopefully it's, like, a good thing
17:13 to have a fresh pair of eyes at that point.
17:15 I love it. I love it. I love it.
17:17 Now, John and Tanya, this is for you guys both, right?
17:21 Like, for me, Jamie and Wiles Black,
17:23 like, the secret sauce is the writing.
17:25 It is so, like--
17:28 Everyone here who's seen it is on point,
17:31 and I think even, like, the critical acclaim
17:33 that the show is getting,
17:36 it's not hinged on, like, an A-list star or anything.
17:40 Like, everyone's like, "The show's good,"
17:42 but there's no, like, huge Hollywood stars in it
17:44 because it doesn't need it because the writing's that good.
17:47 In today's day and age,
17:49 there are so many content creators
17:51 that are, like, doing comedy sketches or things online
17:54 and they know how to hit that audience every single day, right?
17:59 And they probably want-- a lot of them will have dreams
18:02 and aspirations to do a TV show,
18:04 but what would you say is the difference
18:06 between doing, like, short sketches online
18:09 and, like, doing a TV show, so to speak?
18:12 Uh...
18:17 I suppose...
18:19 I suppose it's, like...
18:21 You...
18:23 I'd start, like, when you're developing something.
18:26 I've found when I've produced stuff in the past,
18:29 it's better just to focus on the task at hand.
18:32 So, like, if you're making a short film,
18:34 just focus on making, like, the best possible short film
18:37 you can possibly make, and don't start--
18:39 Like, don't get carried away with yourself
18:41 on, like, what series three of this is going to be like.
18:44 And, like, because I think--
18:47 Yeah, I think usually you just bring in more and more people
18:50 as something gets bigger, basically,
18:52 'cause you just need more perspectives,
18:54 and you'll probably--
18:56 You know, it's just hard to do everything on your own.
18:59 You can probably, like, generally make a sort of sketch
19:04 on your own or with, like, two or three people,
19:07 and then I think the bigger something gets,
19:10 you need more people and more...
19:13 Yeah, more voices to sort of help.
19:17 Does that answer the question?
19:19 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's all good, all good, all good.
19:22 Don't worry. Yeah.
19:23 I think also it's understanding--
19:25 You said this earlier, Ajani, it's a long journey.
19:27 Like, Ajani was saying, it's a really different discipline
19:29 to write for television.
19:31 Like, we meet comedians--
19:33 Like, you'll meet a comedian, and they'll be like,
19:35 "Yeah, I can do it."
19:36 And it's like, no, it's months in a room on your own.
19:38 Like, it's months, and you have to be committed to that.
19:41 And so it's really easy to sort of ape a character
19:45 or find a cultural--
19:47 find something that we all get
19:49 and just do a three-minute sketch of them.
19:51 But it's like, the problem is, you will--
19:54 If you're going to set out to write a TV show,
19:56 you need to put Aunty Lola in context of,
19:58 or know how often to use her, or, you know,
20:01 something-- Like John's saying,
20:03 it just becomes part of a bigger piece,
20:05 and you will-- You have to be sort of in it
20:07 for the long haul.
20:08 Like, that one thing that you do really well
20:10 is going to go through a really long process.
20:12 Yeah, like a sketch or a short film,
20:16 that could just be an idea.
20:18 And I think series, you have to invest in those characters
20:22 in a huge way, because you just want to spend time--
20:25 You want to spend half an hour with them
20:28 or an hour with them,
20:29 and they just have to be way more 360 and just--
20:34 Yeah, because-- And also, you've got to keep
20:37 people's attention for a lot longer and sustain that.
20:40 Yeah.
20:41 - Can I-- I don't know if you're going to ask this,
20:43 but I wanted to ask, because you,
20:45 you were at the beginning of Staff.
20:47 Yeah.
20:48 And was it People Just Do Nothing?
20:50 Yeah. You were at the beginning of both of those.
20:52 Yeah.
20:53 Didn't those start as, like, individual things?
20:56 Staff was just Jamie on his own in, like, his bedroom
21:00 filming himself, and People Just Do Nothing was--
21:03 Actually, their one started in Hugo's bedroom,
21:06 them just filming themselves.
21:08 But yeah, it takes so long,
21:10 because then you kind of watch it back,
21:12 and then you're getting feedback from people,
21:14 and so, you know, to me, they would show those videos to me,
21:17 and then, you know, you'd give them an idea.
21:19 You'd just keep riffing on things, and yeah.
21:23 I think starting-- There's different ways you can develop.
21:26 Obviously, you can start on the page,
21:28 but everything I always did was always, like, with character,
21:31 because it was just easier, and with character actors.
21:36 And please, I don't want it to be missed on you guys
21:40 that Ajani just referenced that John was involved in
21:43 People Just Do Nothing and Staff Less Flats.
21:46 So yeah, he's also got that producer background
21:49 in terms of understanding what it takes,
21:52 because I don't think that-- that's not usually common
21:55 for people in Tanya and--
21:57 - Deli Wankers. - (laughter)
22:01 There we go. There we go.
22:04 In terms of, like, Tanya, you mentioned, like, you know,
22:07 sometimes you meet a comedian, and they're like,
22:09 "Yeah, I can do it," or you meet someone who's, like,
22:12 buzzing and got millions of views on TikTok or whatever,
22:16 and there's probably potential there,
22:18 but what advice would you give to those content creators
22:22 to be able to successfully make that transition?
22:27 I think it's like Ajani said earlier, or like I was saying,
22:30 just find those people who, like, want to do the same thing you want to do
22:34 or get what's funny about that character or get it,
22:37 because, you know, at the moment, it's such a--
22:40 I mean, it may not feel this way, but all producers want to find the next thing.
22:43 They really do, so they'll take the meeting,
22:45 but be a bit-- like, ask them questions.
22:48 Like, do they really get what you're trying to do,
22:50 or do they really get the character?
22:52 Do they really understand it?
22:53 Because it is going to be a long journey developing with that person,
22:57 and, like, when I was a producer, you'd take meetings all the time
23:00 with people, and they wouldn't pick you, or they'd pick someone else,
23:03 and you'd be like, "Okay, fine," and it's just finding the person
23:06 that you think is going to go on that journey with you
23:09 and really going to sell it to us, because if they're passionate about it
23:13 and they get it, they'll be able to sell it up the chain
23:15 to the network or funders.
23:18 That makes sense, actually.
23:21 John, so, you know, you are the final sign-off guy, right?
23:27 So many pilots probably get commissioned, right?
23:30 And, like, as part of the round of pilots that got commissioned
23:35 whilst Dreaming, whilst Black got commissioned,
23:38 not all of them have gone on to be a series.
23:41 So what's the reason that, I guess, what are, like,
23:47 some of the key reasons that pilots don't make it to series?
23:52 Yeah, I think it's so...
23:54 I think more than any other genre of comedy,
23:57 you sort of have to pilot if you can, and we're lucky,
23:59 because they're expensive pilots, but we have the luxury,
24:02 we can make about five or six pilots, and, yeah, there's just more...
24:08 The minute you film something, then you've got...
24:10 There's so many things that could go wrong.
24:12 There's the editing, the director, the cast.
24:15 I mean, cast, if you don't have that cast already,
24:18 so many things can go wrong there,
24:21 and someone's just not embodied that character in the way you'd hoped.
24:26 But editing, again, we had a pilot came in the other day,
24:29 and they'd just taken it down this much more dramatic sort of angle,
24:33 and it wasn't something we'd discussed,
24:35 and it was just... They'd taken a very funny script,
24:38 and suddenly they presented it as a drama, and, yeah.
24:42 And sometimes that is solvable, and that could just be, like,
24:45 you just change the editor and, you know, make it tighter in places.
24:49 But I think there's just... Yeah, there's all those different elements.
24:54 Location can sort of make a difference sometimes, even.
24:58 You know, there's just the grade a little bit.
25:02 But, yeah, there's just all these different factors
25:05 that sort of come into play.
25:08 And then I think as well, like, obviously there's three stages.
25:11 You've got pre-production, the shoot, and then the edit,
25:14 and it's just, you know, I think, yeah, it can go wrong at any stage.
25:18 They're the hardest thing. Pilots are the hardest thing to make.
25:21 And then the first series is probably nearly as hard,
25:25 and then second series you should be OK.
25:28 Wow. OK, that sounds like a gauntlet.
25:31 How many ideas don't make it? How many good ideas don't make it?
25:35 Lots, I'd say. Yeah, loads. Yeah.
25:39 Cos also, you know, sometimes it breaks your heart when someone comes in
25:43 and they've just decided to partner up with someone
25:47 who just hasn't got the right experience for them, or, you know...
25:51 I think I would just sort of encourage people just to be honest
25:55 about, like, sort of Simon Cowell yourself, basically,
25:59 and be like, "What am I not good at, and where do I need help?"
26:03 And just be honest, and don't try and think you can do everything yourself,
26:06 and that's absolutely fine, that you can't, is kind of...
26:09 You know, it should be a collaborative, team-work thing.
26:14 And comedy especially.
26:16 I think I always like to edit with three people in the room
26:19 and I always like to vote, you know, to sort of get to a point,
26:23 and, you know, you should never think you know what's funny,
26:26 cos no-one really knows what's funny.
26:28 It's like, you know what's funny to you, and you can have a sense of...
26:31 If you watch enough stuff and you do what we do,
26:34 you sort of start to gain a better understanding,
26:37 but none of us claim to know, like, what is absolutely funny, so...
26:41 Yeah. That's great advice.
26:43 We're going to come to you guys shortly after my next question, right?
26:48 You touched on something in terms of being aware or self-aware of...
26:53 ..not believing that you're the only...
26:57 Like, you know what's ultimately funny all the time,
27:00 and Ajani, that's something that you said to me, I think,
27:02 a few weeks ago when we were speaking, right?
27:04 And I was amazed at how many people you...
27:09 ..you involved in the actual process, like Lola, etc, etc.
27:14 Could you just give us a glimpse of what that process was like?
27:18 I don't know if it's just the writing room or... But, like, yeah.
27:22 It's funny, cos John mentioned, like, you don't know what is funny to who,
27:28 and categorically, actually, every time,
27:32 the jokes that Ali and I think are the best, people sleep on them.
27:37 And we're just like, "Y'all sleeping,
27:39 "because y'all don't see how funny this shit is,"
27:41 while they're laughing at that, like, you know what I mean?
27:44 But that's just to show, like, as again, you don't know what is funny.
27:48 And even between us and when we have Yemi,
27:52 like, sometimes it's a real debate.
27:54 Like, I think if both of us...
27:56 If everybody feel like the joke funny, we're like, "All right, cool,
27:59 "this is a good shot."
28:01 But sometimes it's like we're writing and Ali might write something,
28:05 and I'm like, "Nah, bro, this ain't it."
28:07 And he's like, "Trust me, it's funny."
28:09 And I'm just like, "All right, cool, whatever."
28:11 And we almost negotiate how many times we'll have a joke
28:17 that the other person don't particularly love.
28:20 But it's because I know, like, Ali is from Whitney in Oxfordshire.
28:25 So, obviously, his humour is very different to mine.
28:29 Equally, sometimes I'm just like, "Bro, trust me, it's a black thing.
28:33 "Just trust me." Like, it's good.
28:36 Equally with Yemi, like, the restaurant scene,
28:39 which has turned into this kind of viral thing,
28:43 she kind of just took the reins and was just like,
28:46 "Look, this is it."
28:49 And we just have to accept that, "All right, cool,
28:51 "Yemi knows what she's doing."
28:53 But that's why we add comedians.
28:55 Through, you know, John and Tanya created rooms for us to add comedians
29:01 just to talk about the scripts and give their opinion.
29:05 Which, to be honest, a lot of it we don't use,
29:09 but it's the perspectives.
29:11 Because then now you can say, "All right, cool,
29:13 "they thought this was funny here,
29:15 "then how can we use that somewhere else or, you know, manage it?"
29:18 So we consciously bring a diverse group of people,
29:25 and even sometimes not even funny people,
29:27 because it's like if they think...
29:29 If somebody's not a comedian...
29:31 Cos comedians tend to laugh at most things.
29:33 I don't know, they're tuned to find things funny.
29:36 Whereas if you bring a drama writer in and them find something funny,
29:40 then you're like, "All right, cool, you know that hit."
29:42 You know what I mean?
29:44 So we consciously try to get everybody's perspective
29:47 so that we can have the best, I guess,
29:51 the most rounded viewpoint of it.
29:55 So, yeah.
29:58 You... I really like that point of inviting loads of people
30:02 into that world and that process, right?
30:06 Given that...
30:08 And I'm saying this from the perspective of someone
30:10 who is probably where you were five or seven years ago,
30:13 where it was you and Ali, and this is your project,
30:15 and the project is actually about you, right?
30:19 How... One thing that amazes me is, like,
30:22 your openness and your willingness to have so much input from other people.
30:29 Like, there's not this air of, like,
30:32 you have to be the definitive writer or, like...
30:37 Why is that?
30:39 Look...
30:43 Robin, every aspect, lean not on your own understanding.
30:47 You know what I'm saying?
30:49 And you don't know what you don't know.
30:51 I'm not saying that because I thought I was the funniest guy.
30:53 I'm not.
30:55 And even that goes the same for when you have actors, right?
30:58 It's like, you know, especially for us,
31:00 because we work with, like, older actors as well
31:02 who, like, seasoned in the thing,
31:04 and, like, Jo Martin, nah, I'm going to say a line she don't like.
31:07 Like, full stop.
31:09 If she don't get the line, she ain't saying it.
31:11 And when you're dealing with, like, actors like that,
31:13 it's like, they're like, "Oh, yo, we have this idea."
31:16 Or, "Can we improv?"
31:18 And it's like, yeah, sure, because if it works,
31:20 like, you know what I mean?
31:22 Like, you know.
31:24 Or, you know, we just cut it out if we don't like it.
31:27 So, but yeah, so that's why I feel like, honestly,
31:30 film, especially comedy,
31:33 is the least auteur-esque thing.
31:38 So even actually saying, like, the show's about me,
31:40 the show's not about me.
31:42 Like, Kwame and I, we consciously--
31:44 from the beginning, we consciously made, like, character tweaks
31:48 that would make Kwame and I different to me
31:51 because I'm not particularly funny.
31:53 Whereas we needed a character who is funny.
31:56 So yeah, man, it's-- honestly, it's teamwork.
31:59 That's the best way.
32:01 I love that. I love that. I love that.
32:03 I'm going to throw to some questions from the audience.
32:06 Okay, yeah, the initiative. I love it. I love it.
32:09 Yes, at the front here. Yeah, go for it.
32:13 Question for Tanya and John.
32:16 The BBC has lost millions of viewers.
32:19 What do you think can be done to address that?
32:22 [laughter]
32:24 Hi.
32:26 Wow, a way to make us feel good about ourselves.
32:29 Jeez.
32:32 I think--
32:33 What was the question, sorry? What could be done about it?
32:35 Or what--
32:37 Well, first of all, I'd say, I guess it's competition, right?
32:42 That's what's increased massively in the last five to ten years.
32:45 It's like there used to be two channels, and there were four,
32:49 and now there's like hundreds of different--
32:52 And I think it is--
32:55 We have to just stick to that something for everyone thing, really.
32:59 And that is because it is public-funded.
33:02 People pay for us to get to make these shows
33:06 and for people to watch "Shrewdness Black" or whatever.
33:09 So I think we really see it as like that is the hard thing,
33:12 is like making shows has become so much more expensive.
33:17 We have to get co-productions for a lot more of our shows,
33:21 like dramas have done for years and like film has done for years,
33:24 but now comedy is like that.
33:26 So we are really keen to protect what is British about those shows
33:29 because what can dilute them sometimes is that international money
33:32 or like a sort of voice that has to be more international.
33:36 So I think what we see really is just doubling down, actually,
33:41 on making stuff for everyone and for the British public
33:46 and protecting comedy.
33:48 We are, as John said, the biggest investor in comedy,
33:51 and if we didn't do it, it wouldn't continue in the same way.
33:56 So it's not really answering your question.
33:59 I guess millions of viewers-- I mean, I look at things as well,
34:02 and I look at my nieces who are like 20 and under and teenagers,
34:05 and it's just making sure as well there's something for the next generation
34:08 and it's really speaking to them and it's that every viewer
34:11 sees something for themselves on the BBC, really.
34:14 I think it's the most important thing.
34:17 Yeah. No, sounds good. Thank you.
34:19 Just to contextualise that, though, I think--
34:21 so actually every streamer has lost numbers,
34:26 and I do think that with the advent of the--
34:29 well, like TikTok, social media, like even now,
34:33 like we have a--
34:37 the restaurant scene in Dreaming Was Black
34:40 has over 2 million views on a Canadian TikTok platform.
34:45 And when you're going through the comments,
34:47 so many people are like, "What is the movie? What is the movie?
34:50 What is the movie?" And I'm there trying to be like,
34:52 "Yo, Dreaming Was Black, Dreaming Was Black, Dreaming Was Black,"
34:54 you know what I'm saying?
34:56 Because people's attention span,
34:59 people's viewing habits have just changed.
35:02 So now to get somebody to watch your show
35:05 when you can just watch the funniest bit
35:09 without any context, it's like, "Cool, I'd rather do that."
35:13 So I feel like that's something that everybody is struggling with.
35:16 Yeah. Wow. Yeah. That was a great point.
35:20 Yeah. Oh, you got a mic already?
35:22 Yeah. Proactive.
35:24 Hi, guys. Hi, John. Been a minute.
35:27 Yeah, so I have a question for Tanya, John,
35:29 and then one for Ajahn.
35:32 Is it? OK. Yeah, sorry. No, no, just one.
35:35 So you mentioned writing numerous drafts.
35:40 So my question is, was the draft like the entirety of the episode?
35:46 Or is it... Will a draft be something as simple as tweaking,
35:50 perhaps, a beat in the thing?
35:52 Or just, "Oh, this line, nah, X it out," and then that'll be it?
35:57 Yeah, so every time we export, a PDF is a draft.
36:01 Just for context.
36:03 But sometimes you'll go through the whole script
36:05 and it's like three lines change.
36:07 But the three lines does impact the script massively
36:11 because it's like how you come in or come out of a scene or a joke.
36:14 But a lot of it, I would say, from draft 25 onwards,
36:18 is just fine-tuning, like properly fine-tuning.
36:21 So, yeah.
36:23 Thank you. And Tanya, you mentioned...
36:26 Sorry. You mentioned...
36:28 I don't know what to think.
36:30 You mentioned about meeting producers
36:33 to find someone who can champion your work.
36:36 So how does that work for...
36:39 Is it different for a writer who's a rep
36:42 and a writer who isn't a rep that just has an idea that needs...
36:46 And they need someone to help them champion their work?
36:50 I guess it's probably slightly easier if you're a rep,
36:54 which is the honest answer.
36:56 And like Ajani was saying, just bang down the door of people
36:59 and try and get them to read your stuff.
37:02 But I think most producers, or at least when I was,
37:05 I would read cold submissions
37:08 just because you really want to find the next big thing.
37:11 And I would definitely...
37:14 Yeah, if it was tape, you watch it,
37:16 but maybe a bit more easier than a script.
37:18 But I would definitely answer most cold submissions.
37:21 I mean, in terms of picking, it's difficult.
37:25 But I would look at shows that...
37:27 People who have made shows that you like
37:29 and that you think are within your tonal wheelhouse
37:32 and then just find the names of the credits
37:34 and just email them, basically, and hound them.
37:37 And make it personal as well.
37:39 Like, do your research.
37:41 Like, stroke their ego.
37:43 It goes a long way.
37:45 Thank you, thank you, thank you.
37:48 One more question.
37:51 Yeah, go for...
37:53 I've got a mic.
37:54 OK, cool. One question, please. Go for it.
37:56 So I would just say, from COVID times,
38:00 what would you say has changed
38:04 within the BBC department
38:06 in terms of comedy,
38:08 in terms of what you guys are looking for?
38:11 Or, like, what have you noticed has changed
38:14 within the industry?
38:16 I don't think we're looking necessarily for different stuff.
38:19 What I would say is that I think
38:21 the way people use Zoom and stuff now
38:24 has been amazing.
38:25 And I think it just sort of...
38:27 That thing where, like, you'd get on...
38:29 You'd spend, like, a rail fare
38:31 to go and, like, have a meeting
38:33 and have a coffee with someone.
38:35 And, you know, spend 20 quid to go...
38:37 You don't need to go and do all that anymore.
38:39 You can literally have a Zoom,
38:40 and it's so much easier for producers to meet people.
38:43 And I think that can only be a good thing.
38:46 Yeah, I mean, I guess...
38:50 I don't know, would you say lives change?
38:53 Maybe, like, we still go to a lot of live shows,
38:56 but I think the tide is slightly turning of, like...
38:59 I mean, Edinburgh's next week,
39:00 but it's slightly changing of, like,
39:02 the one person at Edinburgh breaks through.
39:04 Like, I think there's a lot more avenues now
39:06 of routes through to the industry,
39:09 which is, yeah, only a good thing.
39:11 Yeah.
39:12 Amazing.